"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, October 16, 2009

Intolerant Christians Who Can't Stand Criticism of their Heros

It never ceases to amaze me how fundamentalist Christians can't see how their thin-skinned reaction to criticism wreaks of the same vindictiveness and hate that they criticise in Muslim extremists.

Sam Cook, sports writer for the Fort Myers News-Press wrote an article this week criticizing Tim Tebow for some of his Christian views. Also this week, USA Today religion writer Tom Krattenbaker wrote an article critical of Tebow and his dad, Bob Tebow. While I don't agree with either article, the point of my comments here is not what these guys wrote. Rather, its the reaction to their articles that is so telling of how fundamentalist evangelical Christians today bow up whenever criticism comes their way. Even Tebow's pastor, Mac Brunson of FBC Jacksonville, in one of his sermons used Tebow as an example of how Christians are persecuted in the media, referring to the Knoxville sports reporter who dared ask Tebow if he was a virgin. Tebow an example of Christian persecution? That's crazy. Tebow has received more favorable press in his college career than any other modern day Christian except perhaps Billy Graham. Tebow gets hundreds of favorable news stories in TV, radio, and print media - all well deserved in my opinion - but let a few people express contrary views about Tebow and the fundamental Christians will run around with their hair on fire ready to hang one lone critic.

Go read Cook's article. Then, browse the multiple pages of comments to his article, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Here's just a sampling of people attacking Cook, calling for people to cancel subscriptions and canceling advertising:

"...Did you happen to notice the lack of compassion Cook has demonstrated for the target (Tebow) he has chosen to assault."

"...my heart goes out to you and I just hope you will repent on your knees for attacking Christians"

"...I also cancelled my subscription. I am done. And the CSR I spoke to told me I was not the only one to cancel recently because of Sam Cook's article."

"...As I called the News Press to cancel my subscription and corporate advertising, I spoke to the editor. "

"Sam will one day give an account for his actions. The problem with America today is we have strayed from our roots. And people like Sam do not help. "

"While dancing on both sides of a 2 edged sword, Mr. Cook shows how ignorance is still bliss. "

"As I've said before, why should you expect anything less than leftist spewing from the news-press?"

"Sam Cook = Idiot. Look at the leadership that is out there?!!? Where do you get off, on throwing a person under the bus, that is doing his best to be a good role model. My son, could follow Tim's example any day, you however, I would only use your pitiful rantings as a journalist on the bottom of a bird cage."

And many more. What expressions of Christian love toward Cook. I'm sure Tebow is ashamed that those in the Gator nation, and his Christian brethren, are speaking like this over a little criticism coming his way.

Apparently the only unforgivable sin these days in the eyes of fundamentalist Christians is to criticize their religious leaders in a public forum. It will get you kicked out of the church, and Christians everywhere will heap burning coals on your head. Interesting - these people don't even excommunicate gays or molesters from their churches, but dare to criticize their pastor, or their legendary quarterback, and all the forces of hell, er, I mean Christianity, will come down on your head.

Come on Christians. If you won't follow your Bible in how to treat critics of your faith, then at least take your cues from Tebow - he is not concerned about criticism that comes his way. He lets it roll of his back and he keeps on truckin'. Why can't you?

83 comments:

Anonymous said...

This is one of my biggest concerns about Western Christians. They have no concept of real persecution.

If they think criticism is persecution let them be thrown in a prison with no medical care, rotted food, no sanitary conditions like many persecuted brothers and sisters around the world at the moment.

So, when real persecution comes, these Western "Christians" will fall like a house of cards. And then we will know who the real believers are. This is one way God purifies His Bride. Because He WILL present a pure Bride to Himself. Not a perfect Bride but a PURE Bride.

If it does not ever happen here, I am wondering if it is because He has already brought His judgement. Judging by the letters to the churches in Revelation, I believe that may be the case. The American churches sound so much like several of the warnings in the letters. Of course, many do not see that which is why so many churches persist in going down the broad road.

Seriously, what do we think makes us so special that we have been protected from such persecution? It is because we look too much like the world.

Anonymous said...

You are not going to win any points for this article. I hope that you thought long and hard before you published this one. It really demonstrates your intentions to destroy anyone associated with FBC.

For the life of me, I do not see how this is going to edify the body of Christ. I suppose that is not your intent anyway.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

1:38

You've helped prove my point.

Anonymous said...

You just proved your own point. It seems that you do not handle criticism very well either.

Anonymous said...

You've helped prove my point.

October 17, 2009 1:44 PM

Yes,that comment above this one proves your point exactly. But this whole issue stems from 30 years of a silly culture war that has nothing to do with living out our faith. It is one of the blind making that comment. The culture war that the SBC waged so well resulted in Clinton elected twice and now Obama. yeah, it really worked. But they are intent on fighting it and spending huge amounts on it. Why? Because it makes us feel self righteous that we are not like those horrible people out there. But those who wage a culture war have no understanding of what Paul was teaching in 1 Corin 5. We are not to judge the world. Only those in the Body of Christ.

Look at this thinking:

"you are not going to win any points for this article. I hope that you thought long and hard before you published this one."

So, it is about winning points with blind people? Since when is truth about winning points? People hate truth because it requires action that goes against the flesh. It requires going against their comfort zone and might mean they actually ahve to pray and study on their own.

The author of this comment is caught up in popularity contests.

The Gospel is offensive so why aren't we being persecuted worse than a bit of criticism in the media? Because the world understands that Mac is no different than the average CEO who wants influence and wealth. They get it.

Anonymous said...

You just proved your own point. It seems that you do not handle criticism very well either.

October 17, 2009 1:47 PM

If that is the case then why does Tom keep allowing anonymous comments bashing him?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You just proved your own point. It seems that you do not handle criticism very well either.

October 17, 2009 1:47 PM
______________________________
If the Watchdog couldn't have handled criticism and if he didn't have a thick skin then this blog would not be up and running today with so many reading & blogging!

Like Tebow, appears the WD is man enough to hold his own when it comes to crititicism.

Anonymous said...

Like Tebow, appears the WD is man enough to hold his own when it comes to crititicism.

October 17, 2009 3:50 PM

And Mac is not man enough to deal with criticism. He, a 'Christian pastor' used the civil authorities to try and silence criticism.

Thy Peace said...

I found both the articles very mild in their criticism of Tim Tebow and surprisingly they were somewhat balanced in their writing.

I understand some people are more enthused and religious about football than Jesus Christ. That explains the comments.

A note to Mac:

Real persecution is not when you get criticized by Watchdog on this blog.

Real persecution is when you have lost it ALL, and people persecute you for the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ and you do not know if God is real or not and no one comes to help you ... and you wonder if all this belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ mean anything ... and you endure the time of suffering of being lost ... the losing of the presence of Our Lord, but keeping the faith.

That is persecution.

Anonymous said...

Tebow a virgin? HA! Doubtful. Google his girlfriend and decide.

Anonymous said...

Please read the following then go read it in context:

Rev 6

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


How ignorant are Mac and others who think criticism fromthe media or a little old blog is persecution. Do they not understand the Word at all!

Have they given ONE single thought to the fact that the Word ended/Canon closed before it could record the agonizing deaths of Peter, Paul and John? Why do they think that is? They were hounded and really and truly persecuted.

Mac considers this blog persecution? He is not mature enough to function in the Body. He has no spiritual gifts to offer the Body. He is still drinking milkand needs to be pastored.

Anonymous said...

How ignorant are Mac and others who think criticism fromthe media or a little old blog is persecution. Do they not understand the Word at all!

Who said this blog was persecution?

How quickly the WD droolers will twist anything into a Mac/FBC Member bash.

Anonymous said...

Tebow a virgin? HA! Doubtful. Google his girlfriend and decide.

Tolja! I guess you thought long and hard. You are using the subject because of the web hit potential with a public figures name. You would get the same hit result if you simply used the verse on his face and it would do something to further the gospel.

Instead, before this is over you are going to learn a lot about human nature. The same people that would tear your subject down really fit into the same category of people willing to tear a ministry down. Watch who you hang out with.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Again, proving the point. Keep 'em comin'!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

You seem to be a bit teed-off, Marshall. What's wrong?

And now you are calling anon posters such as you formerly were, "sleuths/stalkers"?

And now you too roll out the "sociopathic" and "obsessive compulsive" labels?

Discovery regarding this site? Yep, probably by both defendants and plaintiffs.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Just so no one misses it, here is Louis' post from the previous thread:

======
Guys:

Still here. Will still be providing my thoughts and questions when new legal developments occur.

I am lol at the supposed sleuths/stalkers on this site and what they think they know.

Some might even say that internet stalking is an indication of sociopathic or obssessive compulsive type behavior though I cannot say to whom that might apply since it's one of about 100 anons on here who comment.

It is interesting to ponder whether FBC Jax or the other defendants will engage in any discovery as it relates to this site.

See you soon.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Internet stalking? I'm lol at the paranoia of the SBC lackeys!

Some might even say that internet stalking is an indication of sociopathic or obssessive compulsive type behavior though I cannot say to whom that might apply since it's one of about 100 anons on here who comment.

Do you really think it's only one?

Anonymous said...

"Still here. Will still be providing my thoughts and questions when new legal developments occur."

Oh, I will be waiting on the edge of my seat, Marshall. I am sure your facebook friend, Maurilio, is very pleased with your neutral analysis given here.

Internet stalkers? Remember, only celebrity pastors can get the police to investigate such things. Maybe Maurilio was gossiping while getting a pedicure.

Anonymous said...

I thought you weren't going to post any more? Or is it that you just couldn't help yourself any longer.

This one is just another example of you trying to justify yourself and your constant obsession and criticism of Mac and FBC, Jax. It is so sadly pathetic.

What Tebow is going through has absolutely no comparison to what Tom Rich has brought upon himself.

This post is a stretch even for you.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Again, proving the point. Keep 'em coming.

Anonymous said...

Obviously a gullible person who wishes he had some dirt on Tim Tebow just like the media reporters wish and would pay big bucks for.

You obviously don't know Tim or you would not make such an ignorant statement and embarrass yourself.

Lots of people want their pic taken with him. He was kind enough to do it and the dirty minds went into action.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

Jim said...

Anon. 7:33, your inability to comprehend a simple sentence is astounding. Watchdog did not say he was going to "stop posting," he said his posting would be idle "for a while." He did what he said he was going to do. Pay attention, will you? Oh, I forgot, if you really paid attention you wouldn't be fooled by the likes of Mac and his gang.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > Have You Ever Noticed How Easy It Is to Use "God" as the Reason for Doing What We Do?.

Anonymous said...

Just another broken promise from Tom.

I have a feeling there is a lot more to the accusations that someone was stalking and/or pilfering mail. Remember we are hearing "facts" from the same guy who denied being the one who was being served papers.

Your latest rants are falling on deaf ears but at least I have to give you credit for still trying to be the poor maligned martyr.

Anonymous said...

Ouch, 8:29 - My viewpoint is just the opposite of yours.

Don't you wish this blog was falling on deaf ears...

I'm not deaf, and I'm not dumb, and I do know how to proof read, and did read WD's words where he said "temporary" . . .I believe the "ranting" is more on your end as your hatred for Mr. Rich certainly comes through to the readers like myself.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

The Official Google Blog > Managing your reputation through search results.

Anonymous said...

"I have a feeling there is a lot more to the accusations that someone was stalking and/or pilfering mail."

A feeling?

So why destroy the documents if there is more to it? Aren't they still looking for the person?

Anonymous said...

Your latest rants are falling on deaf ears but at least I have to give you credit for still trying to be the poor maligned martyr.

October 19, 2009 8:29 AM

That is actually Mac's position. He is the one being persecuted by a blog while he receives land gifts, fancy offices and exotic vacations and drives around in a baby blue jag all from the offerings of FBCJax members. Remember?

Anonymous said...

Dog:

I do think it's weird that people would do things like Google Tebow's girlfriend or try to hunt down other people on this site. I can't imagine doing that.

If any one out there wants to get to know me, you can be direct. I am in the phone book, and you are welcome to call me. I would enjoy meeting you (most of you...I think). You don't have to peer at me through the internet bushes like a peeping Tom.

Dog, I thought you would get a kick out of the 'sociopath' and 'obsessive compulsive' reference.

As you know, I have never thought that was correct or wise of Dr. Brunson to say that. I don't know if it qualifies as libel in Florida, or if it is understood as an opinion, which is not libelous. As in, "that guy's crazy", or "he's off his meds". Also, I don't even think those diagnoses would apply even in the most prejudiced description of your behavior.

Either way, it was a self inflicted wound.



Louis

Anonymous said...

Now to the post.

You have a point. Persecution in the US is not all it's made up to be.

On the other hand, persecution in the US is often more subtle because it is held at bay by the Christian Heritage of our country.

I am not going to either trash the sports writer or listen to Dr. Brunson's sermon to see if I agree with it.

But I will say that Christians are right to identify prejudice when it occurs. I think that asking a football player who is outspoken about his faith if he is a virgin is way out of bounds and odd.

People should take note of that, not as Christians per se, but as citizens who live in a society that claims to be and desires to be open and tolerant.

For me, it's much like Paul taking advantage of his rights as a Roman citizen, or you doing the same in your lawsuit. If you feel that your rights have been violated or if you feel others have been treated unfairly, speak out.

Christians should not sit around and say, "well, since it's not real persecution, I guess I'll say nothing."

We should be as harmless as doves and as wise as serpents.

I will grant you that the responses printed in your blog are over the top. That is not what I am talking about.

And I have no problem with Tebow saying nothing because that is the wisest course for him, I believe, being the target in this case.

But I do not disagree with the Christian community speaking up. I would want the Christian community to speak up if the sports writer subtly made fun of anyone else's religion, too.

In the public arena, Christians are not required to be weak. But when we speak, we should be wise.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Christian persecution is not always "out front" and obvious. Sometimes it is an exercise that is just plain hateful actions and attitudes directed at a target(s). Sometimes "they" just don't like you. Sometimes "they" just look down on you and "freeze" you out. Talk behind your back. Destroy your good reputation and any work you may have done or are doing for the Lord. All in the name of "the church" don't you know. And sometimes they will try to set you straight, because they are SOOOO much more spiritual than you are. They will try to make you "get right", while they belittle you. They think they do God a favor, they are going to punish you for what they decide is your "problem". And some of them have waited so long to do it. Because the "never have liked you". And just "knew" you would one day make a mistake (in their eyes) so they could "get" you.

It's a good thing I am truly saved and know the Lord Jesus. Otherwise, this "gracious" treatment from "christians" might keep me from ever knowing the Lord!!! But my faith is in Jesus Christ and my Bible is my direction!!!. I have nothing good to say about preachers or churches!!!!

Anonymous said...

Louis: The Christian heritage of our country? We have for over 50 years now allowed two generations INCLUDING MOST BIG NAME PREACHERS to ignore the Bible as God's infallible Word in the public/private areas where it once was held up as truth. Not anymore. WHAT YOU DON'T PROTECT, YOU LOSE!!! The POWERS are now in total control from birth and soon to the grave. We have ignored God, ignored His Holy Word. Taken it upon ourselves to determine just how much "religion" we will allow in our lives, and then wonder that God is spewing us out of His mouth! The bible says "there must come first, a falling away of the church". Well, that's already happened. The church is basicallly gone. It is now just a social meeting place, presided over by "celebrities". The true church which is the Body of Believers in Christ, is now awaiting His return, and deliverance from this corrupt world. "Rev.22, "even so come quickly Lord Jesus".

Anonymous said...

For a proper perspective on life today READ YOUR BIBLE!!!!

Psalm 2:1-4 "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Most all of our problems have started in the pulpits of America. Preachers HAVE NOT preached Gods Word in order to save souls, and honor God. They have USED the Gospel for their own end and desires for earthly gain.

Jeremiah 12:10: Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Anonymous said...

"They have USED the Gospel for their own end and desires for earthly gain."


Amen, Amen and Amen. I'll second that. It kills me that these pastors think most of us sheep are too dumb to see what they're doing. We do, pastors, we see it. We're just powerless to do anything about it. That's why we champion the cause of whistleblowers like the Watchdog, the Wartburg Watch, the BBC, Minister Watch, and Baptist Predators. Thank you guys for watching our for us sheep since we certainly can't trust most of the pastors and definately not SBC leadership anymore. And you guys put up with a lot of grief and abuse from the Pastors Mafia to do this. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!

Anonymous said...

"It is now just a social meeting place, presided over by "celebrities".

This is soo true and it is heartbreaking. I can't stand church because of this.

Anonymous said...

"Sometimes "they" just don't like you. Sometimes "they" just look down on you and "freeze" you out. Talk behind your back. Destroy your good reputation."

This happened to me at First Baptist Dallas. It happened to some other people also.

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace, your 10/17 6:43 blog., Re: Suffering persecution while keeping the faith is very poignant and very true!!!! You expressed the feelings of many I am sure.

Jon L. Estes said...

I think this subject is proven out her on this blog from those on both sides of the issue at FBCJax.

Those who support Mac are intolerant of those who don't. Those who support Tom are intolerant of those who don't.

It would be funny if it were not so sad.

Anonymous said...

Some pastors have a "persecution complex". It occurs when they are questioned, or when their authority is threatened. Sort of like Haaman disliking Mordecai and would have killed him if Esther had not revealed his true colors. Its a real shame that all pastors don't learn and live by the BOOK they are supposed to read and know. Many believe other books like history and philosophy are more important. Some are reluctant to quote scripture as it speaks all too often about their way of doing things. Then when being confronted with truth, it might become apparent that they were sinners like the rest of mankind.

Anonymous said...

think this subject is proven out her on this blog from those on both sides of the issue at FBCJax.

Those who support Mac are intolerant of those who don't. Those who support Tom are intolerant of those who don't.

It would be funny if it were not so sad.

October 20, 2009 1:34 PM

Say hello to another SBC pastor. Seems Jon is tolerant of pastors using the civil authorities to try and intimidate a blogger. It is funny that this blog would have probably faded away if Mac had not such a big ego.

Anonymous said...

Ugh Oh, another Sheriff's Department investigated someone and they are lying down either

Here


-

Jon L. Estes said...

Anonymous 9:34

Say hello to another SBC pastor. Seems Jon is tolerant of pastors using the civil authorities to try and intimidate a blogger. It is funny that this blog would have probably faded away if Mac had not such a big ego.

Golly gee, Anon 9:34... Where does what I say in any way support what you accuse? If this is how you see things... sad, truly sad.

I guess you need someone to throw rocks at...

Anonymous said...

Golly gee, Anon 9:34... Where does what I say in any way support what you accuse? If this is how you see things... sad, truly sad.

I guess you need someone to throw rocks at...

October 21, 2009 10:22 AM

Better than sitting on the safe fence.

Anonymous said...

Most of these preachers are members of the same "club" and are therefore, not credible. There are some with enough spiritual INTEGRITY to be truthful and most of us can tell the difference.

Anonymous said...

Another month goes by and another $1,500,000.00 given to the budget of FBC Jax from the sheep. I guess as long as that money keeps flowing in, no changes will be made. (Yes, that is per MONTH, not annual. But hey, they give out blankets to the homeless sometimes and they throw a few crumbs (thousands) at others who really are doing ministry, so we should not complain if the remaining millions do nothing but support the staff's lifestyles and families and our own bloated administrative budget and overhead.)

"And you ask "how have WE robbed THEE?" By giving any more money to the budget of FBC Jax, that is how.

Anonymous said...

Anon Oct 20 11:30am Will you explain what got you into trouble at FBC Dallas without revealing who you are?

Johnny D. said...

G'day, Tom. I have hesitated to comment this go-round because you censored me on your last blog post. Oh, I don't really blame you, but I figured you wise enough to follow my post up with something like, "Don't blame me - this is how you Mac supporters make at least one unbeliever feel." That would have been the absolute truth. I don't suppose you censored me for telling the truth - only the way I told it. I hope that you, personally, were not offended. That was not my intention.

Oh well. Opportunity lost, I guess.

I hate being censored. I'm pretty much going to say what I'm going to say, and if the reader is offended by my language or the points I'm making, then that's just too bad. Here's another thought: for those of you that find me abrasive, if you see my name on a post - DO NOT read. And yes, Tom, I am self-censoring myself right now as I want this post to make the grade. After this post, I will go back to saying what I want, how I want. Though, in the future, I will certainly be limiting myself here to posting only on subjects I just cannot resist, if I post at all.

As to this blog, I see you have discovered one of the sacred idols here in Jacksonville. The Gators and Tim Tebow. The other sacred idol is Lynyrd Skynyrd. Those two idols must not be dismissed, questioned, put down or laughed at here in Jax. And now, with the addition of Tebow to the Gator team, you have really stepped in it with this latest blog.

To be quite honest, I'm surprised you have not received death threats over even daring to bring up Tebow and the Gators in a blog. Maybe you have been threatened, but have elected to keep silent.

Anyhow, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree. It is my opinion, here in Jax at least, that Tebow and the Gators are held in even higher esteem than the Baptist Church. I know that might be hard to believe, but consider how, as you drive around Jax on a Saturday, you see even more Gator flags, stickers, license plates, shirts, etc., than you do Baptist churches. Now that is saying something in a city with a Baptist church on every block.

But yes, you're correct. "Unforgivable sin" indeed. You have found this out the hard way with your questioning of Mac and the FBC deacons. They will stop at nothing to ensure their ephod laden foreheads, and their glittering, gem-filled breastplates of "righteousness" are not questioned or interferred with. They rule from golden thrones, and you, and all the other "giving units" have no right to question them.

It is really quite simple, Tom. This world is full of liars, cheats, haters, etc. Humankind will always lie, will always hate, will always make war, will always kill and murder, will always destroy, will always rape and pillage, will always commit adultery, will always lie about the other guy for a promotion, on and on, ad-infinitum. This deception and greed - it is our best trait, and this "best trait" is why I am sure the universe laments its attempt at sentience through humankind.

Jon L. Estes said...

Anonymous said...
Golly gee, Anon 9:34... Where does what I say in any way support what you accuse? If this is how you see things... sad, truly sad.

I guess you need someone to throw rocks at...

October 21, 2009 10:22 AM

Better than sitting on the safe fence.

October 21, 2009 1:56 PM


You mean behind anonymity?

Anonymous said...

We expect the lost and ignorant to to tear down leading Christians and destroy Christianity in our country. Groups, such as, the ACLU are famous for making believers look stupid and slow for our faith in Jesus Christ. We expect no less from those groups.

Here, on this blog, we have an example where our proclaimed brother in Christ is aiding the opposition. There is a time and a place where criticism is valuable. However, it is rare when public criticism
is appropriate.

Anonymous said...

Johnny D is right about football fans. They can tell you the passing percentage, yards per carry, total td's, rank in conference, stats,stats, and more stats. But, ask them a question concerning Bible doctrines and you'll find them more closed mouthed than a dead fish. Not surprising at all, just a matter of fact. They'll gather around the coffee machine or coke machine and tell you what happened Saturday afternoon, however, they can't tell you the main point of a three point sermon they heard on the previous Sunday. Is it any wonder that more people are on the broad road rather than the narrow? The pitiful thing is, football games last for hours, and many sermonettes 15-20 minutes. From the sermonettes that some preachers give it looks as if they spend more time watching football than they do reading and studying Gods word.

For where your treasure is there is your heart also!!!! Just so sad and many say we are not in the LAST DAYS!!!

Anonymous said...

October 21, 2009 6:08 PM

Did NOT get into trouble. Just a castout from a pick-and-choose church.

Anonymous said...

"The other sacred idol is Lynyrd Skynyrd"

ROTFLOL!! Johnny you're killin me over here!

You are one my favorites, please don't go away. We need you. Wish I knew you. You are a very perceptive, well-spoken and funny person. Thanks for posting. I know I appreciate them.

Anonymous said...

Ditto JOHNNY D:

You are one my favorites, please don't go away. We need you. Wish I knew you. You are a very perceptive, well-spoken and funny person. Thanks for posting. I know I appreciate them.

October 22, 2009 9:48 PM

JOHNNY D QUOTE:
" And yes, Tom, I am self-censoring myself right now as I want this post to make the grade."
==================================
As for myself, you have made various comments that you are not a "believer" but my heart thinks that you really are a believer.

Appears you are one of the favorite bloggers so "be nice" and keep on censoring yourself.

Anonymous
(btw, not hiding my name,just know how the "vindication" game is played @ FBCJ and certainly don't want to be a target of "character assassination" in the media.

Have a good day "everyone" :>)

Anonymous said...

From viewing Johnny D's blog, it appears he's an "ex-believer" or a "recoving Christain" by his admission. Sad because God could really use him and his mind in the body. I get from his own words (on his blog) that he was turned off by the social-club atmosphere and petty clothing comparisons. I don't blame him, I absolutely HATE that about the church (part of the reason why I left First Dallas).

But I wish he would come back to the believing family. We sure could use his refreshing personality.

Anonymous said...

Anon Oct 22 7:27 pm. "Rare When public criticsm is appropriate" (your quote).... Would that place be behind closed doors? In staff meetings, at country club dinners among the elite, or at a fellow sympathizers home in the gated community, at "religious strategy conferences" where "how to keep the money coming in" is discussed by the recipients of the money. Also meetings to discuss "counter active measures against dissenters, like serving trespass papers, to kick them out of the church, because they ask HONEST QUESTIONS. When the light shines into dark places those exposed seem to get shook up about it. I disagree with you. If there is nothing to hide then why be concerned by any comment against your personal stand. Those that know different things about what really goes on inside the establishment could open someone else's mind to the naked truth and there are those inside that never want that information made public. Compromisers !!!! Be bold and accept the fact that all is not well that seems well. The world expects better things of Christians, sometimes more so than Christians do. Its the performance that some pastors get away with that others can see through. Especially real Bible believers, that have been members of real churches, in the past, with real preachers. Is it any wonder that church memberships are dwindling!!!! Sort of like clouds without water. Broken cisterns. Empty wells....good for nothing. So sad but so true.

Anonymous said...

October 21, 2009 1:56 PM

You mean behind anonymity?

October 22, 2009 2:13 PM

Absolutely! You guys are brutal when anyone dares question you. I have seen too many good decent people ruined.

And I can tell by your arrogance here and on some other blogs that you wouldn't think twice before ruining someone if it meant protecting your income that comes from offerings.

Anonymous said...

There is a time and a place where criticism is valuable. However, it is rare when public criticism
is appropriate.

October 22, 2009 7:27 PM

Yeah, that way we can pretend we are Holy when the world knows better because we never admit our sin in public until we are caught red handed. Then we make huge excuses and play the easy forgiveness card. Kind of like Ted Haggard. I am sure the Holy Spirit dwelt in Him when he was having homo erotic massages than preaching against homosexuality.

The reason why they teach against any public criticism is because giving goes down. So, if they can make it a sin to do what Paul did to Peter publicly, then they can continue sinning and be paid highly for it!

Johnny D. said...

"As for myself, you have made various comments that you are not a "believer" but my heart thinks that you really are a believer."

There is a part of me that still wants to believe. It's hard to explain. There is a part of me that still talks to what you call God. There is another part of me that can't understand how any supposed omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Supreme Being can allow Somer Thompson to be molested in the most grotesque and disgusting manner that she surely was. After the rape, this sick animal, most likely choked the life out of that innocent little girl. No amount of "theology" can help me accept such things. "God must have needed a little angel" is just pure BS. That little girl died because there almost certainly is no god. And if there is, it doesn't care about humans.

Thanks for your thoughts, but as you can see, I have some issues to work through.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone noticed the attack on individual freedom whether by the government or by a church? When the government reacts to free speech. And so does a church, if it is critical of the church or leaders. Appears the world is into the church these days!!!! Or is that the church in the world. It really is sad when you can't tell the difference. Either way individual freedoms are disappearing and organized control is definitely exerting itself over you and your lifestyle.

Anonymous said...

So, if they can make it a sin to do what Paul did to Peter publicly, then they can continue sinning and be

For sure, Tom is no Paul...........

How many times do you suppose that Paul could have publicly rebuked a fellow preacher?

If Mac started preaching a works doctrine or something I would be the first in line to rebuke. I would start the rebuke club. Many preachers have publicly rebuked pastors, such as, Osteen for preaching a false or at least selective doctrine. I would bet that you would see some repenting going on as well.

BTW, if you want to see justification for using law enforcement for matters related to church security, just look at what is happening in New Jersey.

Jon L. Estes said...

Anonymous said...
October 21, 2009 1:56 PM

You mean behind anonymity?

October 22, 2009 2:13 PM

Absolutely! You guys are brutal when anyone dares question you. I have seen too many good decent people ruined.

And I can tell by your arrogance here and on some other blogs that you wouldn't think twice before ruining someone if it meant protecting your income that comes from offerings.

October 23, 2009 3:51 PM


Since I made the comment... You mean behind anonymity?

Where have I at any time tried to ruin anyone, period. What do you mean if it meant protecting my income that comes from offerings?

Just trying to get clarification of your comments towards a comment I made.

Jon L. Estes said...

The reason why they teach against any public criticism is because giving goes down. So, if they can make it a sin to do what Paul did to Peter publicly, then they can continue sinning and be paid highly for it!

The problem with comparing the actions of those on this blog to the Paul / Peter incident is that Paul spoke directly to Peter publicly, not about him --- but to him.

That is a personal choice from many on this blog not to follow.

Anonymous said...

"So, if they can make it a sin to do what Paul did to Peter publicly, then they can continue sinning and be

For sure, Tom is no Paul..........."

Paul is not to be worshipped. He would be the first to tell you that. He never forgot that he used to kill Christians. He knew what a sinner he was. So, the blood was not cheap to him like it is to so many mega church pastors.

What makes you think Mac is that much different from Joel Osteen? The size of their churches? Mac teaches prosperity gospel for himself.

Anonymous said...

"If Mac started preaching a works doctrine or something I would be the first in line to rebuke"

Well, you missed one. He does teach works when it comes to 'tithing'.

Thy Peace said...

Johnny D.:

I would encourage you to listen to Pastor Wade Burleson, of Emmanuel Baptist Church, Enid, OK. You can also visit his blog Grace and Truth to You.

The answers you seek are common for many Christians and you are no exception. The answers I find will normally not answer for your questions. They must be sought by you. My experience is you will find the answers in The Word with the guidance of The Holy Spirit. There are good people in churches around. My prayer is you find your answers in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Did I hear this correctly? Didn't the preacher recently say that: there was no partially shown at the church? That it didn't matter what type of car one drove etc., etc. Well I can tell you I have been there much longer than he has, and the church has more cliques and closed little groups than he thinks. But when one is at the top of the social ladder, and drives his own fancy cars, one rarely "suffers" a social discrimination.

Anonymous said...

Yep, my ears heard the same things (see below) and agree with what you say as well as your personal opinion.

Again he couldn't help himself to lamblast the Florida Times Union in his message for not pointing out all the good things FBCJ is doing for the community of Jacksonville. Yeah, right!

Worse and Worse! As one of the bloggers has said in the past.
___________________________________
Anonymous said...
Did I hear this correctly? Didn't the preacher recently say that: there was no partially shown at the church? That it didn't matter what type of car one drove etc., etc. Well I can tell you I have been there much longer than he has, and the church has more cliques and closed little groups than he thinks. But when one is at the top of the social ladder, and drives his own fancy cars, one rarely "suffers" a social discrimination.

Anonymous said...

Partiality exist everywhere. In business, in clubs, in neighborhoods, in schools, in sports, in politics, and yes in CHURCH. Is he kidding? Where do they dream this stuff up? Out of touch with reality!!! And they wonder why they are losing memberships. Gold rings, big bucks, and notable positions all have their place within the established church. Get real.

Anonymous said...

"it didn't matter what type of car one drove etc., etc."

That is a load of bull. There and at many other churches. Mainly megachurhes.

Anonymous said...

No partiality shown at church. Well, what do you call serving trespass papers to long time members of the church, for asking questions. Then throwing them out of the church!!! I would call that being somewhat partial!!!!

No partiality....would NEPOTISM be partial? What about WHERAS resolutions read from the pulpit by leadership, is that being partial. What about removing one that served faithfully because he/she wasn't in agreement with "powers". Just get rid of said person, and slander said person in the process, is that being partial.

Anonymous said...

Ok, I heard the sermon on partiality shown at the church, I was there that morning. Now, I thought it was good that maybe he's TRYING to change the image of FBC Jax to one of inclusiveness and all. I hope that it becomes the reality there as well. Its not making ME move off the back row anytime soon, however. But I thought it was a good sermon.
(and sorry watchdog, i don't think the inclusiveness includes you-maybe if you'd just apologize....................)

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"God must have needed a little angel" is just pure BS. That little girl died because there almost certainly is no god. And if there is, it doesn't care about humans."

Johnny D.let me start with I am as angry with the beast that committed this heinous crime as you are,and I pray that when he is caught that he receives the death penalty!!!

With that stated I have to defend the Character of God!!!
Johnny as destable as this crime is,this perpetrator is a sinner just like all of us are sinners!
The Bible states that "THE WRATH of God is revealed from Heaven against "ALL" ungodliness and unrighteousness of men"[Rom.1:18],NO MATTER WHO IT IS!!!
God's 10 Commandments condemn all of as not meeting the standard of absolute perfection when compared to God Himself!
We compare ourselves to each other;But mortal man is not the standard:::GOD IS!!!
Jesus said "Therefore you shall be perfect,just as your Father in Heaven is PERFECT[Matt.5:48]!!!

Therefore since God is the only One Who is Holy and Just,He could condemn all of us too an eternal hell with our first offense committed against Him and would be absolutely just and right in doing so!!!
The Bible states that all have sinned and fall short of the Glory and Honor of God[Rom.3:23];Therefore making all of mankind guilty in His eyes[Rom.3:9-19]!!!
But Johnny,God has now put on full display His attributes of "Patience","Endurance" and "Mercy",giving "ALL" who have sinned against Him in some form or fashion(even this murderous monster),an opportunity to repent.

The Apostle Paul by inspiration of The Holy Spirit wrote in Romans 2:4 "Do you despise the riches of His GOODNESS,FOREBEARANCE,and LONGSUFFERING,not KNOWING that the GOODNESS of God LEADS you(us)to REPENTANCE!!!
God is giving that murderous monster and opportunity to repent and call on Jesus for salvation,just as He also Mercifully offers an opportunity too all of mankind to turn to Christ and be forgiven[2Pet.3:9]!!!

There's much,much,much more that I could blog,but suffice it to say that "GOD" is not the problem with the world;;;
Rebellious people are!!!

Anonymous said...

Inclusiveness is just a by word that Democrats like to use--and then never practice it. There are always going to be social and financial distinctions in groups in a church or any other organization. Get over it and move on. You ain't gonna change it.

Anonymous said...

Johnny D: Just to add to 6:18 Bro. Rod's remarks. God gave man free will. This important to unserstand. Man can exercise his will for either good or for evil. If one is evil continually then that person's father is the Devil. If a person is truly born again and tries to do the right thing continually his father is God. Even though the "good" person will always come short of Gods perfection, we are to TRY to be like HIM. Like BRO., Rod said, mankind suffers from sin all the way back to the garden with Adam and Eve. That's why ALL mankind needs a Savior. Wars and killings have been going on since Cain and Abel...it is rebellion. That's why Satan was thrown out of heaven along with his angels as they rebelled against God. It all boils down to this..."choose this day whom you will serve". Its either God or the devil. The broad road and the narrow road. Jesus told one of the most religious men (Nichodemus) of the day that he had to be born again. To be not born again is to be lost, and on the road to hell. God does not make anyone come to salvation..its free but man has the choice to accept or reject it. One last thing; the Bible declares that in the Last Days men will become more devilish (like the devil). Good will become evil and evil will become good, that surely is ocurring right before our eyes, in all areas of life. Sin is excused and there are no absolutes to govern evil man's behavior. No Heaven is not to be found on this earth.

Anonymous said...

Johnny D: Your anger is justified when relating to the evil running rampant in the world today. We are to be angry at evil and sin. But to blame God for allowing it is grossly wrong. God does not allow sin and evil. He gave man free will. The earth is not yet brought to judgement, but will, and the wrath and anger of God will be fearsome indeed. That is why man must choose today whom he will go with spiritually. The devil is the prince and power of "this air". That is this earth. To say that God allowed this horrible crime is to say that God picks and chooses which sin He allows and which He doesn't. Not true. God provided His own Son, Jesus, as the Sacrifice, for OUR sins that we might NOT suffer the wrath that will be poured out on Judgement Day. Man does not "get away" with sin. It will be dealt with by God. If we humans find the evil of the devil hard to understand and deal with, how much more does a perfect God hate it. Especially when you think that He put all evil and sin on Jesus as the payment for us. Jesus was PERFECT, but became the sin bearer for us. What love is that!!!! Man does not posess understanding to know Gods mind. But, when we suffer at the hands of evil, know that we are NOT ALONE. Jesus suffered alone, so that we don't have to. We are not in Heaven yet we are still on this evil earth where man has free will to belong to Jesus or go the way of the devil. If one does not choose Jesus then one chooses the devil. Just "living a good life" will not make one good. As all mankind is under the death penality of sin. ALL MANKIND. Only Jesus saves us!!!! 1 Cor. 13"12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known".

Anonymous said...

Hey, at least that "beast" didn't question some of the things going on at his church. He (assuming its a man) didn't "attack" "God's man." He is just a sinner like the rest of us, right? Right, unless he persistently questions God's Gifts to us (professional clergy/staff.)

I hope they trespass that man (and his wife if he has one) and proclaim a deacon's resolution about him. I hope the JSO obtain subpoena's and find out who he is. He must be identified and stopped and called unstable and sociopathic in the paper when they find out who he is.... Hmmm. Sounds like a blogger was viewed and treated the same way. Wow.

Anonymous said...

Johnny D: If you will allow me, I have just one or two more things to say; Thank you for your patience. First, the only "good" in the world is the Holy Spirit that resides in the hearts of "saved" mankind. Many try to live "good" lives and DO good works, but that is WORKS. Goodness by Gods standard cannot be acquired or bought by works. The devil knows what works with people. He knows that to get people to blame God with man's own rebellion, then they arn't looking at him (the devil) as the author of the evil around us. There is no good in man apart from Jesus Christ. Just because horrible things happen does not mean that these things are going unpunished by God. Believe me there will be a reckoning day. We on this earth live in a very dangerous world. Not because God is responsible, but because man and the devil are responsible. Man rebelled in the Garden and we have paid for it since. Man is already condemned, John 3:18: Jesus speaks: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". vs.19: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". vs.20: "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.". vs.21:"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God".

So, don't look for good outside of Jesus. And don't blame evil on a Holy God that has given us His Son as a payment for our sins. God is patient not willing that any should be lost. Therefore, He is giving man time to come to Him. And time is running out. Trust Jesus, you can't go wrong with Him, but you can go to hell without Him. Thanks for your time and consideration of these remarks.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

EFF > 'Hall of Shame' Calls Out Bogus Internet Censorship.

EFF > Takedown Hall of Shame.

Johnny D. said...

I have responded to you in a post at my blog. It is not right to use WD's blog to preach at me. If you wish to continue the discussion, do so there, or through my e-mail - which is available there.

Anonymous said...

JD: I have not and will not read your response. I do not wish to continue the discussion, and will have no further response. Thanks.

Johnny D. said...

You actually took the time to post the above, ANONYMOUS? Like I'm supposed to know one anonymous from another? That's funny, and I don't care who you are.

Anonymous said...

Heb:10:vs.29: "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace"? vs. 30 "For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth unto Me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again The Lord shall judge His people". vs. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".

Titus 1 Vs.16: "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Heb.11: vs.1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
vs.6: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".

Heb.10: vs.38: "Now the just shall live by faith: But if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him".

The Pharisee said...

Interesting, it appears that something similar has happened to me.