Above is the excerpt from the GCR preliminary report video where Ronnie Floyd discusses how people need to start giving the first tenth of "aaallll" their income to the churches, and if we would do that, what incredible spiritual revival would break out in our churches. Some comments as I've reflected on this for a few days:
- Floyd is right: there is lots of money in our pockets and in our portfolios...but this also should make "unchurched" people stop and think. Guess what, lost people who the Southern Baptists are after: once you accept Jesus, and join a Southern Baptist Church, you will find out something about the gospel they didn't tell you in their gospel presentation: once you accept Christ as Savior, you then are obligated to give 1/10th of all your income, and more, to their church. You didn't know it? You know it now, because Ronnie has told you! As fast as you can pray "Thank you Jesus for saving me", it will then be YOUR pocket and YOUR portfolio that they have their eyes on. To be so brazen as to mention that the key to their GC funding is in the pocketbooks of stingy, sinful lay people who don't fork over 10%, makes one wonder: are Southern Baptist leaders more interested in a guy in New York or California getting saved so he can go to heaven, or are they more interested in him getting saved so they can teach him to tithe and tap into HIS pocketbook and portfolio to help them build their empire?
- I find it amusing that mega church pastors like Ronnie Floyd and so many others moan and complain about the "stinginess" of God's people. Let's cut to the chase: there is not one thing on this earth that Ronnie Floyd, or Mac Brunson, or Steve Gaines, or any other pastor for that matter...has done for the cause of Christ in their blessed, sacred ministries that was not FUNDED AND PAID FOR BY GOD'S PEOPLE. Christians who work hard, earn a decent living, and then sacrificially give out of love for the Lord to their church. I'm not saying pat us all on the backs...I'm saying stop beating people up and calling them sinners for not meeting your unbiblical 10% threshold - and actually THANK GOD'S PEOPLE once in a while: they are the ones that allow you to do your ministry! Without their "2.65%" you would actually have to go and enter the job market, interview, compete with peers, and earn a wage and be a lay pastor after you worked your 40, 50 or 60 hours each week. And you mega pastor millioinaires don't forget: lay people are the source of the millions of dollars that you have accumulated!!
- notice how when Floyd tells preachers they need to preach a stewardship series, he takes his left arm and fist and makes a hammer motion...yes...hit those stingy sheep on the head to get them to let loose of that money, brother!
After you watch this video, what are your thoughts? Does this motivate you to give more to your church so they can get it to the Cooperative Program where guys like Floyd can spend it?
53 comments:
GETTING TO CLOSER TO TRUTH:
When first moving to Jacksonville many years back was told by an unbeliever that before you could become a member of the First Baptist Church downtown they asked to see yout pay stub and you had to pay to be a member.
I recall that I smiled and responded that this was just another ridiculous rumor about the church and so untrue.
Today, I wouldn't be smiling and my answer would be quite different as unfortunately the hunger for ones paycheck has been the thrust for the last 2 plus years.
No money from my Pocket or Portfolio will go to support this church. EVER! They have already pocketed "thousands" of our monies and then we see/read one of their so called beloved leaders making a presentation like this. Not one of gratitude, but greed for more.
Will end with the words of one of my favorite bloggers: Worse & Worse.
I agree with Ronnie on his point that pastors need to preach unashamedly, biblical stewardship. Which is, cheerfully, not under conpulsion, as each has determined in his own heart.
And that is only the first hurdle, once I decide to give that money "to God", I next must find out who receives the money for God. Is it the finance chairman of a local church? Is it the pastor shepherd? Or a group of men he chooses to spend "God's money?" Or is it the "least of these?" Jesus said as you have done to the least of these (does this include giving?) you have done to ME. (And by the way, why would a man offer to give, and a wealthy pastor accept, a $307,000 land gift? Shouldn't both say "let's give this generous gift to God, not to a wealthy man? And if they don't shouldn't some churchmen demand it?)
Yes, Ronnie, preachers need to preach unashamedly to those that have accepted the free gift of salvation, that they absolutely must not, and can not, ever attempt to purchase this gift by giving money under compulsion to God. Therefore, all funds given must only be out of gratitude, freely and cheerfully. And it should only be given to "God." Is God the budget of your local church? If so, give it there. Is God "the least of these" like Jesus said? Then give to them, or at least to organizations that will minister to them.
Notice Ronnie gives no scripture, out of the Old Testament, or the New Testament, to support his saying 10% of the first fruits. We have plenty of scripture about the great commission, but none, not one, about Christians be required to give 10% of their income to a local church budget. Yet that is what he is trying to get preachers to preach as part of a Great Commission resurgence.
Ronnie, and others, PREACH THE WORD! God will take care of the rest. Without it, I don't expect to see any Great Commission resurgence in the SBC. And you shouldn't either. God will, and has, use somebody else who is not a lover of money.
Layman
Ronnie says to imagine all that money out there in the pockets and portfolios of the congregation. Sounds like a lust for money to me. No need to imagine what would be done for God if Ronnie got his hands on it. Just look no further than Brunson, Gaines, Maurilio, Ed Young Jr. and Sr, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Paula White, Joel Osteen, and on and on.
Now imagine what would happen if we quit giving to these charlatans (in my opinion) and started actually helping those in need.
(Banging fist) STOP GIVING TO THESE CHARLATANS people! Let these guys go find a job where their education (Doctors of ministry? Master of divinity? Bible history? Preaching?) can be used in the marketplace and let them try and support their families. They might come crawling back ever more grateful for those millions that were handed to them month after month after month by people who believed they were giving to God out of obedience to him.
I wish I could convince people that they have to give 10% of their income and portfolio to me. And I didn't have to paint their house, or cut their yard, or give them medical or legal help, or sell them a product that they could use. But just flat out have them to GIVE me their hard earned money, for NOTHING! Hmmm. How can I do that without getting arrested for fraud? Simple. Just start a 501(c)(3), say I am called of God, I am God's man, and you must give to me. Undesignated. Directly proportional to your love and and commitment to Jesus, who was beaten and suffered and died for you.
WD and pastors that read this blog and think Ronnie is right - won't this split all of our churches? Because I am among the very small percentage that does give 10% out of guilt and out of obedience to the sovereign, I can blame all those other stingy brothers in my SS class and in the worship service who are robbing God and hindering our work. I get upset thinking about how much I give and that it is all their fault that our church can't have that new building and more staff. This makes me angry with them.
Yeah, they are hurting and come to church to hear about Jesus, but they need to hear hard preaching about their lack of giving.
I will view everyone around me differently now. Maybe we tithers should have a secret handshake so we know really loves Jesus and is not robbing God. Or better yet, let's exclude those folks and get them to leave. Better a church of 1000 tithers like me than a church of 5000 non-tithers.
And we need to know how much people really make to be sure we are discriminating against the right people. Why not request tax returns and make sure we are getting 10% of the amount listed on that gross income line.
Yes, this is where we must lead our churches. And this, my friends, will result in a Great Commission resurgence.
(of course, don't mention adultery, drunkeness, co-habitation outside of marriage, divorce, etc. - money is the only criteria since that pays the bills.)
I have been a pastor over 50 yrs. My call was to preach Christ irregardless of the salary. I have pastored 6 different churches and have never asked in advance of the calling what my salary would be. So now i see why I have never pastored a mega church. I have never pushed or believed in the store house giving. I truly believe. and teach, that our giving should be because we love the Lord and we give not only to the church. Silly me according to some I have violated God's word. I don't think so but if i have Christ's grace can forgive that too
Jack - there are multitudes of pastors like yourself who preach grace giving like the New Testament preaches. Thank you for being obedient in that area.
In fact, most smaller churches where there still is some semblence of congregational rule won't stand for a pastor misuing scripture to guilt people into giving...which makes it so amazing that this man, Ronnie Floyd, mega church pastor - is encouraging ALL SBC PASTORS to teach storehouse tithing in their churches. If this happens, it will cause serious strife and discord in many churches where the congregation won't stand for such misuse of God's word by hanging Old Testament Law around the necks of NT believers. Floyd and his GCRTF buddies who are mostly mega churchers themselves think that since they can push this in their churches and get away with it, everyone else should too.
The SBC cant even manage the money they get now through the cooperative program. So much waste on the state and national level. This is part of what the GCR is all about. What makes them think the money will get to the right place if there was more of it? Would they all of a sudden become better stewards of the money?
And why does it take so much money to evangelize locally? They said that America is such a huge mission field. why cant pastors equip their congregations for evangelism? Instead of sermon series and sunday school teachings on storehouse tithing, they could be teaching on the importance of evangelizing one's own local sphere of friends and acquaintances. I thought that being "missional" was all abuzz in the SBC these days.
Then you have some SBC churches that give very little to the CP. For years, Johnny Hunts church Woodstock did not give the desired 10% to the CP and therefore the SBC.
Then you have the issue of celebrity culture among pastors today. How many pastors tour around speaking at multiple conferences a year? Who do you think is paying for them to do this and paying for the local church's pastors and/or entire staff to attend a conference often times just based around the latest church growth fad.
There is tremendous waste and mismanagement of monies within the SBC today. I think they should focus on cleaning that up before they attack the average member.
Why is Floyd on this committee? When he ran for SBC Prez, it came out that his mega church was giving less than 1% of their budget to the CP.
So, he has credibility in this matter?
I am sick of this stuff!!! If people believe any of these guys they deserve exactly what they get. That means if someone is stupid enough to fall for this line they deserve to have their wallets and portfolios "picked". Jesus never tied salvation to works. He died on the Cross to forgive us our sins and to save us from hell and eternal seperation from Him. Not one time did He mention money as a requirement for ANYTHING. As a matter of fact it is called the root of all evil in the Bible. Isn't it ironic that the "root of all evil" is the main thing preachers are interested in and almost ALL they speak (won't call it preaching) about.
I have been a pastor over 50 yrs. My call was to preach Christ irregardless of the salary. I have pastored 6 different churches and have never asked in advance of the calling what my salary would be. So now i see why I have never pastored a mega church. I have never pushed or believed in the store house giving. I truly believe. and teach, that our giving should be because we love the Lord and we give not only to the church. Silly me according to some I have violated God's word. I don't think so but if i have Christ's grace can forgive that too
February 26, 2010 4:15 PM
Brother Jack, You are too spiritual for a mega church. You would have to negotiate a lifetime
package deal and it does not sound like you would be willing to put up with such a thing.
Personally, I would prefer to see the money dry up so we can see who preaches the Gospel. It would only be people we have never heard of before.
Matt
PASTOR THERRELL is what I call a REAL MEGA PASTOR - as one reads his words you KNOW he truly was and is a man called to preach the gospel.
I was a product of an unchurched family and became a believer under a pastor just like him.
I moved out of state with my life changed and have never saw this pastor since. I don't know what happened to him nor does he know what happend in my life.
What he doesn't know is that the influence he had in my life with his ministry is that my testimony went on to be shared with family, children, friends, neighbors, and strangers who became believers, as well as speaking at at Womens Christian Business Clubs and even lifes testimony on how I became saved printed in church bulletins throughout the world.
The pastor messages was focused on one thing - THAT WAS TO GIVE OUR HEARTS TO CHRIST. Never did he ask for money. (all lovingly gave)
I only jotted this down to say "thank you" to a man I don't know . . .you were right when you said "so now i see why I have never pastored a mega church" as you wasn't . . .pastors like yourself have no idea of the many thousands you really have reached by reaching that one "small humble" individual who went on to share the love of Christ. I shutter to think where my life would be today without the Lord.
Little long W/D - but just had to share my feelings with one of your bloggers. :>)
These guys need to do a word study on Godliness. They will learn it has nothing to do with MONEY!!!
I'm surprised that these men haven't hit on the newspaper boys for tithes or the little girls for the profits on their cookie sales. It may have been overlooked...so far, however don't count it out.
"I'm surprised that these men haven't hit on the newspaper boys for tithes or the little girls for the profits on their cookie sales. It may have been overlooked...so far, however don't count it out."
It's not been overlooked at Second Baptist Houston (Ed Young, Sr.'s church). See the three tithe charts. One for adults, one for students, and one for children, conveniently broken down into 10%, 12%, 15%, and 20% levels.
What happened to Purify the Church blog? How come we can no longer see it? Just wondering interesting stuff they had.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b2ZXKX9NSY
These people like Ronnie are unbelievable. Their approach is doomed to fail. Thankfully.
Off Topic:
Practical advise for bloggers ...
EFF > Practical Advice for Music Bloggers Worried About DMCA Takedown Censorship.
Back up your blog, be ready to move it: Make sure that whatever blogging platform you use, it allows you to easily back up your entire blog in a format that makes it easy to republish elsewhere. Have a game plan ready for migrating your blog to a new hosting service quickly if that becomes necessary.
Today's news (2/27) bringing us the report of the devastation of the Chile earthquake, makes me think that we too are being warned of a "Sunami Massive Wave" soon to hit our churches with messages such as this one from Mr. Ronnie.
Many have already evacuated and some in preperation to do so just from hearing these kind of messages - they are also packing their money and portfolios to take with them.
The body language of "Clinched Fist" tells us these guys know they are in trouble, real truble!
Noting body language I also see that Mac is keeping his left hand in pocket these days more and more -is it because in the early days he came on stage swinging, stomping and shouting his message?
Must be his hired hand Murilio adviced him to tone it down. That style might have work for the Texan folks, but not here in Jacksonville.
Preachers want our money. They THINK it is their money. Oh, they say just "give to Jesus". Right!!!!!They want to know all about OUR income, portfolios, lifestyle, etc. They demand to know OUR business. We are to answer to them.
Well, guess what? I WANT TO KNOW ALL ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS!!! You can't get ANY answers about what their salaries, perks, speaking engagements, bennies, PORTFOLIOS etc., out of THEM. NO! It's all secret, except from the "DEAL MAKERS", called the "Pulpit Committee that "Hired" him. The people giving the money are left in the dark. They are to just trust the "pastor". Get that. But they use God to get your money. "Just trust God" they say. What that means is give it to them. So who is God in this situation? But, my main peeve is, THEY DON'T PREACH THE GOSPEL. THEY DON'T PREACH SALVATION TO THE LOST. Basically, they don't CARE. Which makes me wonder if THEY are SAVED. Stop paying them these huge salaries, and all the "under the table" bennies and see what happens. Suddenly, you will see that a real preacher will be a rarity. God help us. Souls going to hell everyday and all these idiots can do is go for the money.
Anon - I'm told that construction is beginning very soon in the Main auditorium at FBC Jax. They are renovating to include risers on the sides to create Sunday School space underneath for the older folks...and some other areas to "upgrade" the main auditorium. The Wed night services are moving to the RLA so the construction only has to be stopped and cleaned up once a week for Sunday services...and according to Mac this will save lots of money on utilities since 20% of their energy costs go into the Main auditorium. And Mac announced that they still need $1 million for the renovations that needs to be given.
10:15 AM. "That style might have worked etc. etc."
That would be style as opposed to CLASS!
"They still need $1 million for the renovations to be given. 10:23am.
Well, why doesn't HE GIVE IT HIMSELF? He certainly has it. It would be a good chance to GIVE BACK to the church that has after all, BEEN SO GOOD TO HIM.
WD Reports:
They are renovating to include risers on the sides to create Sunday School space underneath for the older folks...
=================================
They should do a roll count as it's the old folks who are leaving the flock and won't be many to fill it - no worry on the money part as one of Mac's buddies will come through with the million. He speaks - they jump!
Sad, such a beautiful original architectural building being renovated for such foolishness.
They should have focused more on filling the pews instead of tearing the "empty pews" down.
As far as "Senior" classrooms, might add that the square footage for the handsome executive offfice custom built office suite for Mac, Wife & Dogs was actually built to provide for the Seniors classrooms.
Again, does anyone know what happened to Purify the Church blog. I can no longer get it. Anyone know what happened. Surely they did not get it shut down. I hope not.
I know I have said this before and I hate being a broken record but I know it must be repeated.
It could actually be a sin for folks to continue to give to certain non profit organizations that call themselves a church. They could actually be enabling certain people (such as pastors or seminary presidents)to sin more.
What they really want people to believe is that giving (tithe as they call it) MUST be given to what they call a church. This must be done FIRST before you give to a brother or sister in need. That is simply a lie of epic proportions that negates the model of NC giving.
There is nothing in NC scripture that says we must maintain a building or pay staff to be Christians or preach the Word. Quite frankly, there is little modeling of "preaching" in the NC assemblies by one person. Most "preaching" was done outside the assembly. Yes, they searched the scriptures, etc, but there is no format given for assembling of believers except a very different one from what we know that is outlined in 1 Corin 12-14.
The contributions that Paul wrote about in 2nd Corinthians were to go to believers in another city who were being persecuted. The Corinthians had pledged to help them and Paul was reminding them of that but he did not want a collection to be taken up when they arrived. Read his reasons.
I caution folks to be careful about giving to charlatans and wolves who have twisted the Word for their own material comfort as these folks have done. We will be held accountable for enabling or encouraging sin. Notice how they are not depending on God but are insulting people and calling them selfish when most who give make nothing compared to what most of the GCR task force make in income, perks, speaking engagments and other streams of income as Christian leaders. Even from a pragmatic view, that is not leadership.
For example, If people cannot see the folly of a 1 million dollar renovation when so many are losing jobs and homes, it is only because they are spiritually blind and have their spiritual priorties backwards.
Matt
If you are going to say tithe on mone in your portfolio then some of that money has been tithed on in the first place if you are giving 10%. If your portfolio is gaining 6% does that mean you give on the intrest gain each mouth, quarterly, yearly? You do loose money in portfolios so if don't gain then do you still tithe. If you drop below an amount you tithed on then do you ask for money back? Also if I can not touch it until age 55 then do i have to give on my 55th birthday or before?
New BBC Open Forum said...
It's not been overlooked at Second Baptist Houston (Ed Young, Sr.'s church). See the three tithe charts. One for adults, one for students, and one for children, conveniently broken down into 10%, 12%, 15%, and 20% levels.
Just in case you can't figure out how to divide by 10 (or move a decimal point over one space to the left), I guess.
If you are going to say tithe on mone in your portfolio then some of that money has been tithed on in the first place if you are giving 10%. If your portfolio is gaining 6% does that mean you give on the intrest gain each mouth, quarterly, yearly? You do loose money in portfolios so if don't gain then do you still tithe. If you drop below an amount you tithed on then do you ask for money back? Also if I can not touch it until age 55 then do i have to give on my 55th birthday or before?
February 27, 2010 2:54 PM
Perfect example of why the Law ended up with a Talmud written by men. And why we are no longer under the law of tithe. Now, the Holy Spirit can direct your radical giving. The mega boys don't like this because it will not be directed at them. And the grand delusion jet set life will be over. I mean, what else could they do? Be motivational speakers? Sell Insurance?
I left the SBC 2 years ago for reasons other than the subject of this post. There are many good folks who love Jesus and many solid pastors, but much of the leadership is prideful and pharisee-like.
It is my prayer that any denomination, baptist or otherwise, that loves money, end up on the trash heap of history.
Grace and peace, dustin
Matt.. well said. The problem centers around an organization which has the chief goal of collecting money from its members so that a "leader" will have a lavish lifestyle as he tells them it is required as part of their income redistribution. Revenue units I believe is the current trend.
If you notice, most all of the chief deacons are sucessfull businessmen who can spend corporate revenue quite well. They believe in this "show and tell" whenever they meet to hire one of these up and coming ego centered mega church speakers. They are not particularly interested in a soul winning pastor who spends his time reaching out to the community, visiting the hospitals, holding funerals and generally doing what a smaller church pastor does. They are looking for a "showman". They usually get what they pay for a performer.
They get into this routine of acknowledging the "big picture" from this mega speaker who has already met with his buddies, has been "prepped" and knows exactly what to say and not to say when the interview with the chief deacons occurs sometimes even the "former" preacher will assist him in getting the job.
They offer him a package and he says let me pray about it. Then he goes home talks it over with his wife and family and his buddies and after consulting with these folks realizes this is the lowest offer even though it involves several hundred thousand dollars. He puts off the deacon board who have him "marked" as the one they want until they call him again once or twice. Then, he tells them to up the ante and provide him with a 10-15 year contract with a Golden Parachute worth several more hundreds of thousands and a signing bonus. Then and only then does he agree to take the position offered with his pet projects...wife a job, son a job, daughter in law a job, secretary, more friends, 6 weeks vacation, car allowance, housing allowance, clothing allowance, membership to best clubs, and on and on until he gets what "HE WANTS".
The deacons are the ones that engineer this behavior and the only way to stop it is to start all over again and get someone who wants the job without a contract and no authority to hire anyone,and three weeks vacation. Also, there would be no speaking engagements outside of the church who is paying him to be a servant in their midst. If he wants a car or membership to a club let him pay for it out of his own budget for a car, insurance, etc., like the rest of the members of the church some of which I might add would be a better pastor than a lot of these big shots who are only interested in big money.
I don't recall Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, Charles Wesley or Spurgeon requiring money, money, and more money. But, we have to remember those men were "CALLED" of God.
"They are looking for a "showman". They usually get what they pay for a performer."
Very true. Which means it is really all about image.
Well, I guess there silence speaks volumes. Looks like Purify was all fluff and no flame.
Well, I guess there silence speaks volumes. Looks like Purify was all fluff and no flame.
February 27, 2010 7:40 PM
Don't jump to silly fluffy conclusions. CBMW was hacked into and offline for over 3 weeks. Ya never know.
Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
NIV
Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
NIV
February 28, 2010 5:32 AM
Read it again and answer this question: Until WHAT is accomplished?
After the Cross this was written:
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Colossians 2
Perhaps we need to look at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 and ask why the tithe was not mentioned there when the Judaizers insisted the Gentiles keep the Law.
Paul says:
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
Here is the letter the Jerusalem Council sent to the Gentiles concerning the Law the Judaizers wanted them to keep out in the provinces:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f]—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Why is no "tithe" mentioned here if it was carried over to the New Covenant with Gentiles?
Matt
Part of the problem other that "brainwashing" from money hungry preachers, is the use of corrupt texts such as the NIV, ASV and others. That and a general misunderstanding of what Jesus said and meant. If we were to live UNDER THE LAW, then there would have been no need for Jesus to pay the price on the Cross for our sins ONCE. He paid the price, one time for all sin because man could not and would not keep the law!!!! If we were meant to live UNDER THE LAW.....why are we not required to keep all of the law now? Like sacrifices in the temple, circumcision etc., etc. It is really that simple.
Anon: Strange that you bring up the tithe yet you have no verses from the apostle Paul who showed the mystery of salvation to the Gentiles. He never mentioned the word tithe. You have a lot to learn regarding the Bible and the OT doctrine of tithing which was established by God for the Jews by the Jews!!!
Jesus mentioned tithe only twice.
1. Matt 23:23 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithe of min and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
2. Luke 11:42..But woe unto you Pharisees!for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Out of all the scriptures I see no evidence that Jesus was concerned with tithes after his death. He resolved the tithe question eliminating its use and even set aside the place for the priest to enter the Holy of Holies for all mankind by tearing the curtain into from top to bottom by his precious blood.
Thats why he gave us a new commandment "that ye have love for one another". Funny how this commandment has not been touched but oh you must pay the OT tithe. Without the tithe being preached and forced onto the people these monuments of stone and glass called churches would not be around. People truly could and should reach out to the lost of this world and those monies falsely given to those who desire to live lavishly could be given to the poor and needy. This shift in offerings certainly would be an improvement on the course of the church which has failed, will fail, and continue to fail until Jesus returns.
Anon: Strange that you bring up the tithe yet you have no verses from the apostle Paul who showed the mystery of salvation to the Gentiles. He never mentioned the word tithe. You have a lot to learn regarding the Bible and the OT doctrine of tithing which was established by God for the Jews by the Jews!!!
February 28, 2010 12:14 PM
I think this is a common mistake. They fail to understand that Jesus kept and taught the spirit of the Law in His earthly ministry.
He also made it clear that even the Apostles would not understand much of what He taught until AFTER the Cross/Resurrection when He would send the Holy Spirit upon them. Even then, Peter needed a vision to understand that Gentiles were no longer unclean.
Most folks forget that Paul spent 3years in exile after his conversion before he met one Apostle. And he spent 14 years mostly unaccounted for in the Word before he began his well known ministry.
Think about it. God chose Paul, an expert in the Law, student of Gamaliel and Pharisee to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. Why?
Peter and the others, considered uneducated by rabbinical standards were chosen to take the Gospel to the Jews. (I say they were uneducated because their rabbinical education probably stopped around age 14. Otherwise they would not have been working when Jesus called them to follow Him. They would have been studying with under a Rabbi.)
What is even more interesting is that no only was it hard for the Judaizers to get rid of the law after conversion but we can see how much impact they had and why Paul was so very concerned about it! Fast forward to today and look at how many Gentiles are preaching the Law!
Why? Teaching the Law puts power and influence in human hands.
Abiding in Christ with the indwelling Holy Spirit, takes the power and influence AWAY from human hands.
Matt
In reference to Purify the Church, I know they were hacked and the situation.
The Baptist Conventions have a technical staff that have been trying for months to hack it and have it shut down and removed at the request of those within the Baptist Mafia. The Baptist even had...get this, Homeland Security poking around.
That is a tactic these men use to their dirty work. They try to get the government to use tax payer money to accomplish their goals without using their own money or those high dollar tithers.
Doesn't this sound familiar? They accuse people of false accusations and hope to pull a rabbit out of the hat!
The blog will be back...with its own server and NOT shared with blogger.com or Google!
You can email them and ask them. I did. This is how I found out what happened. Their email address is
info@purifythechurch.com
Just give them some positive feedback...I did.
Hey, wasn't Ronnie Floyd the one that put in a fire engine baptistry for kids that shot confetti out when baptized?
Your "tithe" dollars at work.
"The Baptist Conventions have a technical staff that have been trying for months to hack it and have it shut down and removed at the request of those within the Baptist Mafia. The Baptist even had...get this, Homeland Security poking around."
Does not surprise me a bit. The
"conservatives" who cannot stand Obama are just like him.
I went to a wannabe mega-church yesterday to hear a wannabe mega-church pastor pretty much quote Ronnie verbatim. He did add one thing though--"it's not just the money in your pockets, it's the personal debt you have amassed because of greed and pride," he said while jumping up and down and whining his sermon.
Funny thing--his church is over $2.5 million in debt itself! Just a thought--what if they weren't having to pay that debt? What if they were using that $15k a month interest only payment for real ministry instead of getting their name in the convention newspapers for their new children's facilities that are used--ONCE A WEEK???
Floyd said, "The greatest amount of money that exists for the cause of Christ and the advancement of the gospel is in the pockets and financial portfolios of our church members." I beg to differ. Would it not be refreshing, even exhilirating to hear Floyd say, "The greatest amount of money that exists for the cause of Christ and the advancement of the gospel is in the buildings and lands owned by the churches represented on the GCR Task Force. Therefore, we are going to sell off all those facilities as an example to our SBC brothers and sisters. We are going to meet in homes and rented school auditoriums and use all that money to really impact the culture in our communities and around the world. We urge every pastor to preach this kind of stewardship and we can truly change the world for the cause of Christ!"
Hmmm...just wondering what would happen. Sorry, I fell asleep there and started dreaming out loud.
Anon 8:54am. But then how would they get rich and become a mega pastor of a mega church? Yours is no dream. That would be a nightmare. Where would these egocentric speakers hold their meetings and hold praise and worship(?) meetings for their friends and themselves. Nah, they have to have these monuments as it is built for their glory and to edify just how difficult it was for them to "build a big church"!!
There is an epidemic of hypocrisy running among the churches of today.
"And by the way, why would a man offer to give, and a wealthy pastor accept, a $307,000 land gift? Shouldn't both say "let's give this generous gift to God, not to a wealthy man? And if they don't shouldn't some churchmen demand it?"
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Excellent question. Can anyone answer this one for me?
Or at least have the gift given to the church and designate it be sold to help pay for renovations.
What is up with a church who allows this kind of giving to a wealthy man and not to the poor, or to the church, or to "God."
Nah, they have to have these monuments as it is built for their glory and to edify just how difficult it was for them to "build a big church"!!
There is an epidemic of hypocrisy running among the churches of today.
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Exactly right! Listen carefully whenever a preacher, or guest speaker, talk to you about what God is doing, or has done in the past. They will always talk about buildings: "God was moving, people were being saved, and we had just built a new building." Or "meet pastor Bill, his congregation grew and he oversaw the building of a family life center and a new sanctuary."
Just once I would like to see someone introduced who based on how many people his church has fed, or how many naked they have clothed, or their crisis pregnancy center women they have helped, how many marriages in his church were restored, etc.
Those guys are out there. But the wanna-be pastors don't care to bring them in because that is not their goal. They want a bigger salary and bigger building and these guys must know how to do it.
But they do it to reach the lost right? Yeah right. I need a new yacht so I can "minister" to those at the yacht club right? And I bought that new Lexus SUV for the family. And that new boat, that was for my family, not for me. Awesome stuff.
Keep on funding it all by giving "to God." Amen! Amen.
"There is an epidemic of hypocrisy running among the churches of today."
March 1, 2010 9:43 AM
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Agreed - and our role models are those who stand on the sacred pulpit.
Note to Matt - enjoy reading your comments as you insert thoughts to make me want to further dig into the word.
As for this comment "The Baptist even had...get this, Homeland Security poking around."
Would not surprise me if FBCJ is not already on the job trying to identify those of us who blog on here. But this is not an issue as The Bill of Rights still gives us the free exercise of the Freedom of speech. They may have a lot of curiosity but for sure they don't want a pack of "Watchdogs" after them. :>)
Anon 9:54
I'm belieiving, just based on what I heard Sunday, that virtually every mega-pastor in the US used Floyd's comments in some way yesterday to justify beating the sheep!
How is it that Christianity is spreading at a rapid rate in Asia, Africa, and South America and yet it is on the steep decline in the US? I mean, they don't have massive buildings, large pastoral staffs, budgets that are consumed by salaries, Sunday School curriculum, Lifeway, Beth Moore, youth programs, ministers of music...etc? I mean, how do they manage that growth without task forces, or even denominations? What is happening there that draws people?
oops, that should have said Anon at 9:43
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