"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Wednesday, February 24, 2010

Floyd and GCR: They Are Astounded at the Selfishness of God's People

Well, the Southern Baptist Convention, Great Commission Resurrgence Task Force has released their preliminary report. The chairman, Ronnie Floyd, at left, delivered the prelim report via video and written form.

You're going to be shocked, but guess what needs to happen for us to have a Great Commission Resurrgence? Are you ready?

(1) Pastors need to preach storehouse tithing.

(2) Church members need to repent of their sin in their giving, and start forking over 1/10 of ALL income to their local churches.

Yes, Floyd says he is astounded at the selfishness of God's people because they don't fork at least over 10% of their income, undesignated, to their local churches.

Stop, and go read pages 26 and 27 of their report here. Or, go watch Ronnie Floyd in the video below (fast forward to the 54 minute mark) so you can get the full context of what he says about storehouse tithing.

I mean really. Did Obama and the Pelosi help write this? Its the same message: we can do great things, but boy, we have to have more of YOUR money. We already are raking in billions, but it ain't enough. We need MORE. And when we get more, we won't just buy bigger buildings, and inflate our salaries, and take trips down the Danube, and hire marketing firms...no, we'll do real ministry...we promise!

And you wonder why Les Puryear tried to get Kostenburger and Croteau fired for holding to a doctrine that says storehouse tithing is not applicable to NT believers? These men believe that you handing over a minimum of 0.1 of your income is necessary for them to fulfill the Great Commission. If that's true, then by all means fire Kostenberger and Croteau and bring all lay people before the discipline committee who are doing such a dastardly deed of keeping the gospel from going forth by their stinginess.

And not only does Floyd and the GCR want you to fork over the money in your wallet, they have their eyes on your "financial portfolios". Look at this slide from Floyd's game show video:


That should send chills up your spine. They have their eyes on your wallet AND on your portfolio.

Let's re-write Matthew 28:19-20 into the new modern, SBC GCR translation:

"After you get my followers to fork over 10% of all their income, and after you tap into their portfolios, Go ye therefore into all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observer all I have commanded you....and also disciple them so after they become my followers they too will obey the Old Testament law and fork over THEIR 10% so you can keep reaching and discipling."

Ronnie Floyd offends all hard working SBC lay people by calling lay people "selfish" because the average church members only give 2.65% of their income. Floyd calls us to "repent of the sin of not honoring God with at least the first tenth of our income." Funny, I didn't hear Floyd calling his church selfish for their paltry 0.3% they give to the CP.

And then this gem:

"Can you imagine the spiritual revial that would consume our churches if God's people would obey God in giving? Can you imagine the opportunities of advancing the Gospel...if God's people would obey God in giving?"

Its sad, really. No mention of treating our spouses better. Or being better examples for our kids or just loving Jesus more - that's not the key to spiritual revival. No, spiritual revival is dependent upon us giving them more money. How convenient. Amazing how these mega church pastors think. Lay people, wake up. Your SBC pastor likely views you, the 80%+ of you that ARE sacrificially giving and serving but not meeting their 10% criteria....they view YOU as being the greatest obstacle in achieving God's work. If you only would stop being so selfish, they would be able to fulfill the Great Commission.

Ronnie, we lay people are wising up. You will be lucky to maintain the 2.65% average. Its been that for decades and decades. People now know many of the new generation of pastors...if we were to give them boatloads of more money, their tendency would be to build more glorious buildings, hire more ministers, expand salaries, hire church marketing experts and create a mega church empire. Someday, we'll probably see an SBC mega church pastor use our tithes to lease a luxury jet airplane. And by the way Ronnie...we have watched you as our example. Your mega church takes in millions each year, yet only a measly 1% goes to the CP.

And the last statement by Floyd worth commenting on:

"Stand on the authority of the Word of God and call the people of God back to Him through the giving of the first-tenth and additional offerings to your local church. Remember the only people who ever get offended with the declaration of biblical stewardship are the ones who give little to nothing at all to your church."

That's wrong. The vast majority of generous givers are not meeting the 10% threshold, and they are increasingly becoming aware of the false doctrine and are tired of their pastors misusing scripture to guilt them into giving more to the church. And the generous givers are also sick of the secretive nature in which churches spend the money, and they are realizing that they can take some of their "2.65 percent" and give it to other charities who are doing God's work.

Floyd and the GCR's push to get people to tithe as a means of fulfilling the Great Commission won't work. Its not biblical, and people know it, and there are even conservative bible scholars like Croteau and Kostenberger and MacArthur that know it.

And besides, it won't sell too well up in the Northeast: Accept Jesus as your Savior, join our church and our convention...and oh by the way: I forgot to tell you: another part of the gospel is you're required to fork over 10% of your income to our church - every week - on the gross, please. Its in the Bible. :)

Good luck with that, Ronnie.


GCR Progress Report from GCR on Vimeo.

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

Good Summary:
"Ronnie, we lay people are wising up. You will be lucky to maintain the 2.65% average."
==================================
These "Club members" are circling their wagons and getting bolder, and more brazen in their "money" messages. Yep, got that right - we lay people are wising out.

Sorry Mr. Floyd, but your message flunked out. All you said will do nothing more but bring less people and less money.

Just when I think it can't get any worse, here comes another subject to change the scenery . . .these people are the very ones who keep the fires going!

Thanks W/D for keeping the thousands of us who read your blog updated on these kind of reports.

Anonymous said...

I would suggest watching the movie Luther with Joseph Fiennes and notice carefully why Tetzel was allowed to promote indulgences? What is in the storehouse should stay there...if they are going to teach it as such.

Anonymous said...

You need to promote Revolutions in Missions by KP Yohannon. When I read it...I was much more impressed with GFA than the way SB does it.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Yes, must see movie for SBC'ers.

Its sad, really.

This guy, in a very important video, decides not to congratulate lay people for their generosity over the years that HAS, let's face it...accomplished incredible things in spreading the gospel.

No, his characterization is he is amazed at how downright selfish everyone is...presumably NOT HIMSELF, however, since he must give his 10%. But EVERYONE ELSE is a sorry, no-good non-tither.

And he does NOT encourage people to seek the Lord as to how much they should give out of love for Christ and the lost as the New Testamente teaches. He just pops off the standard old 10%, and if you aren't giving it, you need to repent of your "sin".

Amazing, but not surprising.

Anonymous said...

Not so fast, friends. Last week, one of the mega's, after a big time tithing push, took in an offering that is the highest in 15 years. They took in over 800,000 in one week.

This will work to some degree for some time. It is almost like indulgences were to the RCC. Folks really believe by giving more to maintain a huge building, staffers and a very nice life for the pastors they are pleasing God. Scripture twisting works or we would not have the profitable entertainment temples we have disguised as churches. Many of us fell for it thinking we were doing great things for God. (As if we could)

Many more will fall for it, too.

Matt

Anonymous said...

There are many times I think the entire Southern Baptist convention is on a slow catapult to oblivion.

The goings on, the foolishness and the self righteousness of the clergy and other professional self declared spiritual persons is off putting. Who would really want to go to First Baptist or for that matter, many others of the same type of church these days? There are more positive ways to enjoy and hour or so on Sundays, and more uplifting.

Based on what I have been reading over the past year or more from this blog, and others, it is enough to say that I do not want any part of these churches, today or tomorrow.

I am a former member of First Baptist when Dr. Lindsey preached, and since his demise, the Church has suffered and will continue to do so, until there is a regime change.

Sunday morning television is more interesting, and a vigorous work out at a gym, same time, is more beneficial.

Anonymous said...

Is that really Ronnie Floyd? Or is it a computer simulation of him? He doesn't look real, he looks sort of plasticy.

And is it just me, or does he bear a close resemblence to Ray Combs of the Family Feud fame?

Or is it the used car salesman that tried to sell me a 2002 Firebird?

Anonymous said...

Dude you're a moron. Where are they supposed to get the money from? You guys are acting like babies. If I believe in something I support it. I'm not a spiritual person, but sounds like you have a problem with something that makes sense to even an outsider. Funny stuff.

Anonymous said...

Not so fast, friends. Last week, one of the mega's, after a big time tithing push, took in an offering that is the highest in 15 years. They took in over 800,000 in one week.
===============================
And this is the very reason city community leaders are pushing for the churches to begin paying their fare share on properties they own. It's in the works - won't be long before it's voted in!

Lydia said...

"IF I believe in something I support it."

They are aware of that which is why you don't get to see behind the curtain.

Lydia said...

And this is the very reason city community leaders are pushing for the churches to begin paying their fare share on properties they own. It's in the works - won't be long before it's voted in!

February 24, 2010 8:02 PM

Actually, they are also considered a large employer. 500 employees is nothing to sneeze at in these times. Some states have courted companies with less than that to relocate.

Joe Blackmon said...

Remember the only people who ever get offended with the declaration of biblical stewardship are the ones who give little to nothing at all to your church."

This diatribe, I mean post, and the comment thread pretty well prove this statement. Thanks, Tommy Boy.

ForTruth said...

The church where I am a member has a budget of between 5 to 6 million dollars a year and
better than 70 per cent goes to the pastor and staff, and other salaries.I am a long time member and ordained deacon who has served as a deacon in the pass., but I would not qualify now because I am not willing to sign the pastors requirement to agree to store house thithing. At the same time it is considered none of my business to know how much he recieves ,which is determined by his hand picked finance commitee. In the pass members of our church were able to serve as messengers to the state and Southern Baptist Convention but as of last year only the pastor and staff were able to go.
The pastor is on the preaching circuit and he is able to come and go as he pleases. He is able to go and fleese other flocks and it is reciprecated by their being brought in to fleece our flock.
Historicly Southern Baptist have been a non credal people but that is no longer the case.

Anonymous said...

"Remember the only people who ever get offended with the declaration of biblical stewardship are the ones who give little to nothing at all to your church."
=================================
Got that one wrong - actually it's those of us who give the most $$$$$ who are the very people speaking out about the misuse of the members stwewardship. It is called fleecing of the flock. The majority of budget is not spent for the sake of the gospe but for supporting the lifestyle of a Millionaire preacher. Example, deterioating building repair monies were exchanged to build a custum executive office for him, wife and dogs!

Was refreshing to read the testimony of "ForTruth" as seasoned believers know it was spoken truthfully.

Just think about 200 deacons signing a 10% committment that is a requirement by the Millionaire pastor and his hand picked financial committee - just another reason why lay people are wising up. Sorry folks, for any errors but just some thoughts as I head out the door.

Firm believer in tithing (but no more of God's money will go to SBC or their millionaire Country Club preachers) And yes, my $$$$ will be missed in their budget! Not me, but my money!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

For Truth - who is your pastor?

Anonymous said...

Ronnie,
I'm not giving "little to nothing" I AM DEAD ON NOTHING and if I could take some or ALL of the money back, that I have given, I would snatch it back in a second!

Anonymous said...

"Remember the only people who ever get offended with the declaration of biblical stewardship are the ones who give little to nothing at all to your church."

From Scott Adams' book "The Joy of Work" - You are wrong because...


#25. INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT SOME THINGS HAVE MULTIPLE
CAUSES

Example: The Beatles were popular for one reason only: They were
good singers.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the Great Commission Resurgence...I DON'T SEE ANY MENTION OF TITHING THE FIRST FRUITS OF MY INCOME anywhere in any of the "Great Commission" verses.

And, there is NOTHING related to the finances of those that have, or will, accept Christ as their saviour when it comes to the Great Commission.

But what do I know? I am just a layman. Too stupid and too stingy. I bet I am not even really saved. No one ever told me I had to give 10% to be in right relation to God. I thought Christ Jesus reconciled me to God. Yet, these leaders of the convention where I came to Christ and grew in the word, are now saying not only must tithe the first fruits of my income, but also that in order for the Great Commission to be fulfilled, I must empty my pockets and my portfolio. And all this while I see the most brazen abusive preaching and spending (Brunson, Gaines, Maurilio, Ed Youngs Jr. and Sr., et al) and no transparency.

Are these men preaching "another gospel" (the gospel of money and greed) that the Bible warned us about? Could they have other motives? (private jets, Danube river cruises, branding, etc.) Or is just that these men are humble, pastors who want people to love Jesus and live for him. Watch their speech, tone, looks on their faces, spending, and lifestyle and the way they treat their flocks, and you will know the answer.

Layman

Anonymous said...

Dude you're a moron. Where are they supposed to get the money from?
___________________________________
They are to trust God to provide it just like you and I have to do. AND I would argue, they ALREADY HAVE more than enough to carry out the Great Commission if they would just stop putting wife and kids and friends on staff, stop jet-setting around the world, stop paying advertisors and Maurilio, stop building parking garages and lighthouses, and stop spending every dime on "operations" so that they can't do any ministry with the budget God has provided to them.

Moron

Junkster said...

I agree that many, if not most, people could give more, and a whole lot of folks don't because they are just being selfish and materialistic. But I disagree with the doctrine of storehouse tithing, and I think the least likely way to get more people to give more is to beat them up about it or place a requirement on them not in the New Testament.

I like what a pastor friend of mine says to his church (not too far from Jax) about giving: "If you don’t trust us here, just give generously somewhere to help people and/or to help people who are teaching the principles of the Bible and advancing HIS message in the world."

Anonymous said...

Someone must be desperate to go to all of this trouble in attempting to put their members on a guilt trip for an Old Testament Doctrine that no longer applies. It was God who decided what tribe was to take care of the OT synagoue. I don't think any reasonalbe thinking person would subscribe to the notion that todays NT pastor fills that position regardless of their church affiliation.

All they want is their lifestyle at your expense. And most of these pastors really do not know whats in the BIBLE. They just like to weave stories and make people feel good about themselves. Worse and worse. Wait till the real depression hits and taxing authorites go after THEM. They will have to adjust or retrench which will cause them to have lower budgets, less trips, older cars like the rest of us. Oh, the very thought of that makes some of them almost faint. Then, I suppose they will want the members to give a double tithe 20%, otherwise they are robbing God don't you know. How pitiful is this? No wonder the people are getting out of these churches and staying home. There are still a good group of preachers on tv today from smaller congregations that don't have money written across their foreheads or stamped in the palm of their hand!!! Sorry just a little play on words.

Anonymous said...

Joe B - wrote: "This diatribe, I mean post, and the comment thread pretty well prove this statement. Thanks, Tommy Boy."

Wrong Joe. I give anywhere from 6 - 8 % of my income to the church and sacrifice needed maintenance, wear older clothes, my wife works outside the home to supplement our family income, and we serve at our church every weekend on one of the two days we get off each week. I am VERY offended by this type of preaching. What I was giving cheerfully, now seems to me to be robbing God and is the reason my church can't give more generously? Why even bother giving what I give, cheerfully and sacrificially, if pastors and leaders believe this is sin?

Please help me understand Joe?

Anonymous said...

Hey Joe Blackmon - once again, you pastor types have it 180 degrees wrong. I give NOTHING to my church. And therefore, I am not concerned how much they beat the flock or how badly they waste the money. Why should I care? I don't give these charlatans one dime. (smiling)

Anonymous said...

It seems to me that the GCR leaders are doing exactly the last thing they should be: which is making it seem that the gospel is really all about the money and portfolios they are trying to reach. People already think these guys are just in it for the money. Now they have the GCR leaders admitting it?!

If it is not just about the money, why so much emphasis on it from those that are tasked to reach the lost? Hmmmm?

Anonymous said...

I agree that many, if not most, people could give more, and a whole lot of folks don't because they are just being selfish and materialistic.
___________________________________

I admit I am more selfish and materialistic now than ever before. Just like my church and its staff have modeled for me. :)

Anonymous said...

I am a former FBC member and tither. I left last year, after I had had enough of the hypocrisy in the pulpit. I now attend a wonderful church in which the Holy Spirit is moving in a marvelous way. Interestingly enough, I have not heard a sermon on tithing yet. Last Fall the pastor mentioned in his sermon that things were getting "tight" financially and that they were going to adjust salaries accordingly. Ever since, the tithes and offerings have steadly increased, so much so, we have a surplus in our budget every week since before Christmas. I want to give to this ministry - over and above the 10%. People are getting saved, the Word is being preached. And I am not badgered or yelled at. It is soooo much better than at FBC Jax. I continue to pray for them, but I have lost hope that repentance will come to those in leadership.

Anonymous said...

I am a former FBC member and tither. I left last year, after I had had enough of the hypocrisy in the pulpit.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks be to Brunson & his A Team a whole lot of others left as well. (I being another one who also moved on but truth said, they are happy to be rid of us)

There are those that have hung on who say they've been there to long to try and find another church but there is no question about their dislike of Brunson and openly talk about being fed up with him.

Never have I known of a Pastor to receive such a negative reception from members of a church. Unfortunately Brunson will never bring the people together and he cannot sustain the damage he's caused at FBCJ. He's got a major snowstorm going inside his church created only by himself and his A Team.

Glad I'm out of there, but sorry, they are not on my prayer list as they have hurt to many of the members to warrant praying for.

Anonymous said...

Think about this...When the Ethiopean spoke to Philip what did he say? Was it how much do I give? No, he wanted to be baptized.

When the Phillipian jailer saw that the jail prison doors were all open and the prisoners all there what did he say? How much do I give. No he said what must I do to be saved. Paul and Silas told him believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...money was off the table.

When Peter and the other disciples met with the Centuriun what did the Holy Spirit say? It certainly did not involve money. It was that the Gentiles could be saved just like the Jews..open to everyone. When Peter got ready to leave there is no mention of money in the scriptures.

When the man who could not walk spoke to Peter & John, Peter said he had no silver or gold, however what he did have was the ability to call on the name of Jesus Christ and the man was miracously healed and began walking. Money did not come up.

When Peter preached and the Holy Spirit converted 3,000 souls did Peter ask for an offering? No, he knew that the work of the Holy Spirit was working and that those there were witnessing the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

What the church today is concerned with is MONEY rather than the power of the Holy Spirit. The power of God is ready to be released, yet these men fail to believe in it and choose to ask for more money for their own purpose.

When the Last Supper took place there was no mention of money. Ater the resurrection in the upper room twice there was no mention of money. It wasn't even on the agenda. It was all about faith in Jesus and how to witness his death and resurrection.

When the dying thief asked Jesus to remember him he heard Jesus say he would be with him in paradise that very day. There was no way that man could put one cent in an offering plate with his hands and feet nailed to a tree.

When the rich man wanted to tear down his barns and build bigger and better ones what happened? He died.

When the rich young ruler showed up and told Jesus he followed all the commandments what happened? His money was of no help to him.

When the taxes had to get paid what did Jesus say...he told them where to go...fishing...and what happened? The tax money was in that first fish caught. These pastors of today have left the first love, that of RELYING on the work of the Holy Spirit to direct their ministry. Not a marketing firm. I have heard TRUE men of God step out in FAITH and PRAY for the Holy Spirit to provide needs, touch the hearts of the lost, intercede in sickness, lead their ministry, and to accomplish what man never could. The hearts of preachers must be sold out to Jesus, when they are,... watch for miracles as in the days of old. Jesus is the answer.

New BBC Open Forum said...

How the only female on the GCRTF was chosen.

Anonymous said...

"Is that really Ronnie Floyd? Or is it a computer simulation of him? He doesn't look real, he looks sort of plasticy."

He looks like a young Bill O'Reilly to me....or Max Headroom.

Thy Peace said...

Anon @FEBRUARY 25, 2010 4:30 PM:

Amen. Amen. Amen.

God bless you.

Anonymous said...

Please:

In his defense, its Annual Church Profile reports DO show that---during the past 5 years and under Dr. Floyd's stewardship/leadership---FBC-Springdale HAS shared annually with all the other congregations of the SBC via the Cooperative Program an average of 0.016% (that is "sixteen-thousandths of one percent") of its annual average total of $12.9 million in undesignated offerings given back to the Lord by its members in keeping with the sound biblical preaching heard there (annual totals ranging from $32,000 to $324,000 passed along to the CP in that timespan).

As you can see, Dr. Floyd---along with other similar leaders of large SBC congregations---is eminently qualified both to counsel other Baptist believers from the Holy Bible about the spiritual quality of generosity and to occupy the very responsible public position he now does among us on the GCR Task Force. It is not like almost all the other 45,000 congregations of the SBC---especially the much smaller ones everywhere---are almost literally carrying the convention in terms of financial contributions. And, it is clear to see why the pastors, staffs, and members of small-to-medium size Baptist churches should be very proud of---even seek to emulate---Dr. Floyd's leadership style.

Please, cease treating Dr. Floyd as if he is not worthy of greater respect, OK? Thank you.


;- ]

Anonymous said...

Sorry; even more worthy than I had calculated: 1.6% (not 0.016%).

The members of FBC-Springdale should be proud, in a godly way. Maybe there is an award, or a certificate?

tikatu said...

Perhaps a little OT, but the still picture you have of this guy reminds me of Max Headroom...

Anonymous said...

I am a former FBC member and tither. I left last year, after I had had enough of the hypocrisy in the pulpit.
-----------------------------------------
I too am a former member of FBCJax. I was getting tired of being beat up by the pastor for not giving enough, not coming to church enough, not serving enough, not praying enough ..... not doing anything enough.
The last time I went, I was told in Sunday School that giving 10% was just training wheels. If you are doing fine giving 10%, you need to give 15%. If you are doing fine giving 15%, you need to give 20%. If you are doing fine giving 20%, you need to give 30% and so on. I thought about it and realized that they meant for us to give until we were dirt poor and had absolutely nothing. I realized that God did not intend for me to work as hard as I work and have absolutely nothing. Therefore, to suggest such a thing is Un-Godly and the Holy Spirit is not present in this so called church. True Churches are concerned with spreading the Word of God and helping people to grow spiritually. They don't harp on money and they don't hoard money for themselves and their beautiful buildings.

Anonymous said...

"True Churches are concerned with spreading the Word of God and helping people to grow spiritually. They don't harp on money and they don't hoard money for themselves and their beautiful buildings."

February 26, 2010 8:25 AM

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WELL SAID - I too am a witness to the SS teachers preaching the message to "give more than 10 percent, be more loyal on Sunday and Wednesday attendance" to do this, to do that, to show your loyalness to Christ but most of all to show your loyality to the "poor preacher". Never mind some of us in the medical field have night shift duty. Money, money, money is the primary message at FBC.

Mautilio Amorim and Mac's A Team are slowly choking the life out of First Baptist - I do give them credit as they know how to perform for the out of towners but when it's over, we go back to the usual brow beating of the flock, and the "faithful" deacon puppets keep their mouths for fear of loosing that almighty position. Gag!

Anonymous said...

Aren't these pastors just hanging a millstone around the peoples necks? Aren't these pastors really just saying "Faith plus" and "Christ plus." Oh I already hear the resounding "NO" denouncing this but the bottom line is, is this is exacly what is going on here.

Anonymous said...

Wow, I can't believe the selfishness that I am reading. Honestly, you wouldn't have a dime to your name if the Lord All Mighty didn't give it to you. If you don't believe that, than you got bigger issues than bickering about tithing. Can someone tell me where in the Bible it doesn't say to tithe. Do you remember in the Bible where the lady gave the only money she had. What did Jesus say?