As more of Caner's deceptions become known, the defenders of Caner appear more and more ridiculous. And more is yet to come, maybe the worst yet, BUT we shall see.One of the more recent Caner defenders to go public is Mac Brunson, pastor of FBC Jax, as his defense was posted on Stormin' Norman Geisler's site last week. Brunson is Caner's close friend, and co-author. At least Brunson doesn't blame Muslims and Calvinists, and Brunson does mention Caner's "sorrow" and "grief".
Below is another Caner video; some new footage not seen until James White put it on his blog last week. It is Caner at Harbor Light Assembly of God, Freemont, California, on September 22, 2006. It contains the standard Caner yarns and tall tales mixed with racial stereotypes: came to America as he was getting ready for college, learned English from TV, he never drove a taxi or worked at 7/11, came as a "missionary", prayed on a rug in the high school bathrooms - you know, those typical "misstatements".
But Caner tells a new one: his "madrassa, his training center" was in Beirut.
That is interesting. He led FBC Jax to believe he was "raised in Europe" and trained there in Islamic Youth Jihad when he came to America...but now the training center has moved to Beirut.
Memo to Norm Geisler: this whopper is an easy one to explain away on your website, as you see there is a restaurant in Toledo, Ohio - where Caner moved after he came to America - called the "Beirut Restaurant". It has been serving fine Middle Eastern cuisine since its establishment in the 70s. So perhaps his "Islamic Youth Jihad" in Toledo one time met at the Beirut Restaurant for a meal on the 39th day of Ramadan, thus it is not a lie to say that his training center was "in Beirut." He did not say "Beirut, Lebanon" - thus it's obvious he meant "in the Beirut Restaurant". I know that sounds like a stretch, but hey, I'm just trying to help Stormin' Norman out. I'm sure he can use a little assistance now and then. At least I'm helping out more than Craig D, who is content on bashing James White over and over again as a means of defending Caner. Maybe he and others should instead do some real research to help Geisler out.
One more eye-popping claim by Caner in the vid. It seems he took the liberty of throwing his deceased father under the bus, saying that his father came to America with multiple wives, and that he lied to authorities saying they were his sisters! Imagine that, saying that your dad committed the crime of polygamy, when nowhere in any divorce papers was this mentioned. If his dad WAS a polygamist and lied about it, why on earth would he want to tell that story to the public? I know, it was all for Jesus, right?
Taking a step back, I have some larger questions in all of this, as this is growing into the Great Evangelical Cover-up.
- How did Caner's embellishments get started and why did it go on for so long? Why were these fibs not nipped in the bud by those in authority over him at the time?
- Who was his pastor when he started spreading these tales after 9/11 who might have been able to counsel him and discipline him about lying?
- Where did Caner work, and who was his boss at the time, that might have had opportunity to speak to Jerry Vines before and after Caner's FBC Jax sermon in November 2001?
- Why was the due diligence on Caner not done by the heavies in the SBC to confirm his testimony?
- Who knew or suspected that Caner was fibbing after 9/11, and who did they tell?
- Or did NO ONE have any idea that he was lying about his past? Are we to believe that NO ONE that knew Caner pre 9/11 knew that he was fibbing on the preaching circuit?
- Did he preach at his home church after 9/11, and did he embellish his story with those there that knew him pre 9/11? If not, why not?
I will ponder those questions in coming posts, so stay tuned.
And now, here is the latest episode of "Caner Gone Wild":
53 comments:
This indeed was a BIG WOPPER - he and BIG MAC have a lot in common so understandable why they are best of friends - both performers on the pulpit!
Liberty should ditch this man from their teaching staff. No young person of mine would be enrolled in a college that allows someone like him to be a professor. I've lost all respect for that college.
Caner is nothing but a liability to the colleges reputation - people will always question Caner - he can communicate & capture an audience with his performance.
It could very well be that Liberty is keeping it's options open depending on the fall out from this. If Caner becomes a finanacial liability, he will be gone. It is all about money, or this would have been dealt with sooner. Remember Liberty's first reaction.
Yeah, he lied about his dad having several wives YET we were told by Tim G and others, he "Honored" his dad by taking his name...
Hey Tim, how do you explain away the "Abraham Lie" Caner said his dad told about his other wife when he came to this country? I suppose that was "misspeaking".
Is someone building a case against Emir as well?
Now that he is working with Geisler, will we find him saying the same or as contradictory statements related to what he has been telling the world through Geisler?
Can he honestly say Ergun went one way I went another, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Unfortunately Emir's contribution to the problem is undeniable. He, more than anyone else, knew the truth and cooperated with the lies. He benefitted from the lies along with EC and is cooperating with the "We're victims." approach to the problem.
He can't make any public statement until older brother does though. If EC ever apolgizes "adequately" I expect that we would hear the same from younger brother.
Interesting...perhaps you can run a contest to help Geisler improve on some of his other lame defenses.
Simply list his (laughable)responses to the misstatements, open it up for more creative explanations, and choose the best one. Once, they are all collected, send them to Geisler and company so that they can update his site.
I have looked at some of the videos for them, and I think he has done a better job not to say anything like Ergun, but at least on the things he was involved with Ergun, he had to know Ergun was taking it "too far."
I will admit, he couldn't have known everything Ergun said when he wasn't with him, but he has had time to figure it out now.
He would still be doing it if he had not of been exposed on the Internet.
Again, the ONLY reason he and others are ever sorry or ever apologize - like the many others who were caught in devious activity such as PORNOGRAPHY and Deception - are because they GOT caught red handed.
Quoting my great friend Doug again
"The Internet, The Great Equalizer"
I hear there is some actions /talks going on in GA soon concerning the new SBC president and Doug
hmmmm, now that is interesting....
It is so apparent that when some folks tell really big untruths it is a "HOOK" to draw in those that are interested in great things happening at our church or under the big tents of meetings of a bygone era. Whenever a person wants to draw attention to "themselves" rather than what is important in these areas (Christianity) it takes away from Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. They need to find another occupation plain and simple.
It might help for both Ergun Caner and Mac Brunson to examine themselves as it relates to their book: Why Churches Die: Diagnosing Lethal Poisons in the Body of Christ.
Why indeed?
Ergun Caner, please do us a favor and heal the sickness within yourself to embellish and lie so boldly.
There are some recordings of TV shows (or similar) where both Emir and Ergun were being interviewed and Emir supported Ergun's statements (on Turkey, I think). I don't remember who made the first "embellishment" but suspect it was Ergun in each case. The first time that happened, there had to be a serious discussion when they got out of the building.
Or maybe that discussion happened after the FBC JAX talk (or the one in Texas). At some point there must have been a discussion. Obviously Emir would be caught between the "rock and the hard place." But I suspect that he now wishes he had stood firm the first time.
I still find no excuse for Ergun's statements. Maybe it was just too much fun to let go.
I keep waiting for someone who has heard him speak lately to report on whether he has cleaned up his act or not. I certainly hope he has--but that would be a clear admission of guilt. The embellishments had become an integral part of EC's presentation. He would have to stay focused not to slip back into them.
I reread the notes of support for EC on Norman Geisler's web site. They sound worse today than they did the first time I read them. No one says, "I have listened to EC's talks and his comments. The stories he told do not matter..." They talk around the problem. Credible denial is the phrase that keeps coming to mind in most of those who don't have financial interests. Denial is the best word for the others.
Has Vines had any comment on this? Has he apologized to anyone for bringing Caner forward in the first place?
So Mac Brunson was making money also by selling books he co-authored with Caner?
oh boy . . .
There once was a TV show called To Tell the Truth....Will the real Ergun Caner please stand up.
I have been told by some VERY RELIABLE sources (some of these guys were on the investigating committee) that Caner is out at Liberty. They have told him he has at the most a year to find something else...and he is looking for future employment.
In fact, he may be out before the spring semester. They wanted to extend grace because he does have a wife and kids that he is responsible for. You do not have to agree with their reasoning but that is it.
In fact, he may be out before the spring semester. They wanted to extend grace because he does have a wife and kids that he is responsible for. You do not have to agree with their reasoning but that is it.
July 27, 2010 10:43 PM
If they were not so embarassed, perhaps he would be gone but remember how they first responded to this scandal. That tells you a lot about Liberty's priorities. Money.
Why should there be a problem with a job? I am sure Veritas has a place for him. Right?
Unfortunately Emir's contribution to the problem is undeniable. He, more than anyone else, knew the truth and cooperated with the lies.
I'm curious why no one has mentioned the "invisible" brother, Erdem (Mark) Caner. He's older than Emir and has to know their big brother's been spinning tall tales the past decade, yet he's flown completely under the radar during all this.
Here is an excellent article on Emir's culpability in this massive cover up:
Truthfulness in Testimonies
h/t The Squirrel
"
In fact, he may be out before the spring semester. They wanted to extend grace because he does have a wife and kids that he is responsible for. You do not have to agree with their reasoning but that is it.
July 27, 2010 10:43 PM
Liberty should have just paid him off with a years severance instead - they are just as responsible for OUR KIDS to see that they are NOT sitting under a lying professor. One of his cronies will for sure make sure he gets on staff at one of their churches.
"So Mac Brunson was making money also by selling books he co-authored with Caner?"
================================
Flashback from the good old days at FBCJ when the Brunson family arrived - they are experts on how to get monies from the flock.
Every Adult Sunday School class was asked to put in $1 for Trey & his fiance's wedding gift . . .the deacons wives hosted a Bridal Shower . . .and then there was the formal reception Mac hosted in the church dining room for their introduction.
Very tacky tacky, but they did get a pocketful of money and a trunk load of gifts and daddy gave him the best gift of all - put him on payroll at the church. Glad I'm gone!
Yes, Mac knows how to make his money!
"In fact, he may be out before the spring semester. They wanted to extend grace because he does have a wife and kids that he is responsible for. You do not have to agree with their reasoning but that is it."
In fact, he is teaching right now! So they are not real concerned about liars teaching their students.
Anonymous at 10:28 am
I did find on LU's website that Ergun Caner is teaching a class called Western and New Religions from May 17th to Aug 20 but the time and place say "TBA" whereas classes earlier this summer had a time and place. Perhaps this class did not happen? Or do you know someone who is taking it?
Oh...I looked at it again and it's an Independent Study.
That might explain the "TBA" for the time and place.
TF said-->- How did Caner's embellishments get started and why did it go on for so long? Why were these fibs not nipped in the bud by those in authority over him at the time?
I personally think he's a pathological liar from the things he's done. I'll bet those who know him the closest can see that the symptoms of his lying go way back to his childhood. Chances are a lot of people kind of wondered at the stories, but didn't connect the dots. When you try to confront a pathological liar they are very good at making YOU feel guilty for doubting them. And they are good at making you doubt yourself for daring to doubt them. (I'll bet Emir and Ergun's wife have experienced this) Pathological liars will be a little more careful around those who know their story...but get them in front of people who don't know them and they will say anything. They don't have the concept of accountability down at all...think they are above the law and will only confess when caught. That's when they get really sorry and tearful and promise to never do it again.
I am honestly surprised we haven't heard about an Ergun sex scandal yet. I am not saying he has, but almost all pathological liars really have trouble in that area as well.
TF-->,Or did NO ONE have any idea that he was lying about his past? Are we to believe that NO ONE that knew Caner pre 9/11 knew that he was fibbing on the preaching circuit?
I am thinking this is the case. Caner moved to different locations...told his lies in so many different variations and locations that no one caught on for several years. Those who did catch on were not in a position of authority, were embarrassed (such as family) or just didn't plain care.
Thanks to Christiane (L's) for this link:
Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie > Caner Attackers and the Military
Rumor has it that the men out to destroy a brother in Christ are about to use the military in their approach. I have it on good word that Dr. Ergun Caner has been notified that another video is about to be released with the intent of stirring the military emotions and thus rally another group to the frying. Our heroes in the military deserve better than to be used as pawns in this ridiculous evil game. Their claim of him doing them harm is disgusting and disingenuous. There will be nothing new in this or that not answered by men such as Norman Geisler. Men like Smathers are attempting to search and destroy even though the committee has acted.
"Rumor has it that the men out to destroy a brother in Christ are about to use the military in their approach. I have it on good word that Dr. Ergun Caner has been notified that another video is about to be released with the intent of stirring the military emotions and thus rally another group to the frying."
Would be nice if Tim had even alittle bit of information to share on this. Who, what, when where?
Who notified Caner?
These guys love their secrets but that is only because the full truth is embarassing.
They think folks believe them because they carry titles of "pastor".
What is even more interesting about Tim G's post is that he attacks Jason Smathers. All Smathers has done is research and post official government documents that prove Caner is a liar.
That must be a huge problem for Tim G.
There will be nothing new in this or that not answered by men such as Norman Geisler.
So true.
What facts has Tim G. ever presented in support of EC or against the ones who have been presenting their facts?
He is a strange one, but he seems to have plenty of company.
Tim G:
Said--"Rumor has it"
Notice no facts just rumor.
Wonder if he would like it if his church folks majored in rumors like he loves to?
Tom:
Yes, that was the first thing I noticed. I have never been to Tim G's website before.
At the top it says "Winning Truth" and the very first line says "Rumor has it". Geesh.
It is the old "preemptive rebuttal" trick that Tim G is trying.
Tim has never addressed any of the issues. He has always attacked the person who brought the news. And he never lets facts get in the way.
I suspect that there are a lot fewer people who agree with Tim than we think. In fact, we may know them all by name or "handle."
How this man responded is typical and a common response of those within the Baptist Mafia...
The Truth is Marching on.....
"Caner has been notified that another video is about to be released with the intent of stirring the military emotions and thus rally another group to the frying."
And we all know how emotional the military is.
Rumor, emotions, etc
Does Tim write for the Enquirer in his spare time?
Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Misstatements
A discussion of the difference between even consistent misstatements over time, and lying. Hopefully some helpful thoughts.
Also James White discusses a little about speeches/sermons Ergun Caner made in May of this year, where he calls the people questioning him as "haters" and more on Dividing Line tomorrow on this subject.
I find it interesting that James White speaks so clearly and lucidly. God bless James White.
Wow! With apologies to Lewis Carroll or Alice or whomever is most appropriate, this Ergun Caner saga is getting "curiouser and curiouser." Now "Truthful" Tim Guthrie is circulating a rumor that some unnamed individual or individuals are "about to use the military...and thus rally another group to the frying" of poor old Ergun Caner. Folks, I have spent more than a quarter-century on active duty, and I assure you "the military" does not care about Mr. Caner. You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen or Guardians who even know his name (most of those will be chaplains who attended Liberty). Furthermore, Guthrie's patronizing platitude: "Our heroes in the military deserve better than to be used as pawns in this ridiculous evil game," disgusts me. I doubt Mr. Guthrie is qualified to carry the boots of one of our "heroes." As far as the military getting involved, as Guthrie rumors, I believe that is a fabrication from an imagination that knows little or nothing about the way the military works.
Wow! With apologies to Lewis Carroll or Alice or whomever is most appropriate, this Ergun Caner saga is getting "curiouser and curiouser." Now "Truthful" Tim Guthrie is circulating a rumor that some unnamed individual or individuals are "about to use the military...and thus rally another group to the frying" of poor old Ergun Caner. Folks, I have spent more than a quarter-century on active duty, and I assure you "the military" does not care about Mr. Caner. You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen or Guardians who even know his name (most of those will be chaplains who attended Liberty). Furthermore, Guthrie's patronizing platitude: "Our heroes in the military deserve better than to be used as pawns in this ridiculous evil game," disgusts me. I doubt Mr. Guthrie is qualified to carry the boots of one of our "heroes." As far as the military getting involved, as Guthrie rumors, I believe that is a fabrication from an imagination that knows little or nothing about the way the military works.
Jim - it is no secret, and it is no rumor. It is fact. A blogger has the video tape of Caner's training or speech he gave to a certain unit of our U.S. Marines on Jihad.
He plans on making it available soon.
And it will take another round of defenses and attacks from Caner's defenders like Guthrie and Stormin Norman Geisler to explain even more lies coming from Caner, and this time its more serious: he delivered them to our troops.
Guthrie likely got wind of it from Caner's camp, as the blogger probably attempted to contact Caner about his statements to the troops.
Well, do note that Tim G. and Ergun Caner have ministry connection.
This does not make Tim right or wrong. It's just an observation.
Now we know to warn folks not to give money to Watchman Fellowship. They do not have honest board members.
Besides, their behavior is cultish and they need to be "watched"
WOW! A training speech to the troops. Makes you wonder if the Govt., checks anyone out anymore.
I am deeply disturbed by this potential new revelation that caner addresses our military troops on jihad. If this is true, then someone in the government did not do their job and vet this guy.
To think that a liar had access to the troops and fed them information that was not based in fact gives me pause.This may be a bigger story than a lying Baptist seminary president.
It is easy for me to imagine innocent people taking the word of their pastor who invited Caner. It is very different to imagine our military doing the same. I predict this will be a very big story if it is based in fact.
This is truly getting worse and worse. I would not in any way be surprised if there are more revelations to come. I have been suspicious from the beginning that there's more to this story than meets the eye.
I'll say it one more time...are we SURE this guy is not still a muslim?
In infiltration?
I don't care what anybody says, somebody needs to be asking this question.
Sorry, Caner, if I'm wrong. But man, you seriously brought this on yourself and you know it.
And if you want to know why I say that, he's made not only a fool of Christians but also the US Military.
Jihad.
Dee: I would encourage you to look at this comment. It shows Ergun Caner giving speeches on Jihadism as an expert.
It is easy for me to imagine innocent people taking the word of their pastor who invited Caner. It is very different to imagine our military doing the same. I predict this will be a very big story if it is based in fact.
July 29, 2010 9:48 AM
And one the Obama White House will LOVE to use for their own purposes
Gee Thanks, Caner, for giving them the ammunition.
TG and EC on the same board. There are connections everywhere. This might explain some of TG's enthusiasm for his personal attacks. He may perceive that he is supporting his friend and fellow board member. This seems to make some sense out of the nonsense.
If you get enough information, it could all make sense. People do strange things in support of their friends--like strap bombs to themselves.
Watchdog, my apologies. I must have misread Mr. Guthrie. I understood him to say that "the military" was going to do something to add to the "frying" of Caner. I am aware that Mr. Caner addressed some Marines of MAG 29, New River Air Station, North Carolina on the topic of Jihad back in April of 2005. It was part of their required monthly Professional Military Education. There were probably two or three hundred Marines present in the base theater for that class arranged by the unit chaplain. Please tell me we are not still kicking around that five-year old piece of history. If that is the event on the video, be aware that his style of racist and religious humor was not well received by many of those "War Eagles." They possessed way too much integrity to be sucked into his side-show. I am reasonably sure he has made similar appearances to other military units. Perhaps HQMC has given instruction that he is no longer welcome to give similar lectures on any Marine base. Could that be Tim's concern? His conjecture still sounds to me like a rumor from an active, uninformed imagination.
Yes, ALL the commentators in this blog are "haters", "hiders", "poisoners in the church", "non Christians (we are not Christians according to Ergun Caner)" and so on ... according to Ergun Caner from a speech/sermon in May 2010. Please listen to the Dividing Line by James White.
Thy Peace @ 9:28 AM July 30th
THANK YOU so much for providing this link - I would hope that each and everyone who reads this blog takes the time to listen to it.
Liberty is very foolish to have Caner out representing their University - all this does is provide listeners to hear his desperation - he's one smooth communicator that Liberty is allowing to influence our young adults. Shameful!
Aftereffects of James White Dividing Line program ...
Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Tim Guthrie - Highly Offended at Being Wrongly Linked to Ergun Caner
Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie > James White Bears False Witness
Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Tim Guthrie and False Witness
THANKS AGAIN THY PEACE!
The links posted is like reading a comedy book!
These men are adamant that people are not doing correct research on the subject.
The only thing they are doing is throwing their own names into the Caner gutter pit of lies.
Interesting posting!
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