"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Saturday, July 3, 2010

Watchdog's Response to Geisler: Listen to the FBC Jax November 2001 Sermon Again

Norman Geisler seems intent on bailing water out of a sinking boat. He has posted a lengthy response to the "Muslim" charges and "misstatements" made by Ergun Caner, but he apparently hasn't listened to the Caner FBC Jax sermon preached on November 20, 2001.

Geisler needs to let it go. The Liberty University investigation was completed, they found him to have lied, and they demoted him. Every time he tries to justify the "decade of deceit" by Caner, I will roll out the November 2001 Ergun Caner sermon at FBC Jax. And I roll it out again.

Ergun Caner at FBC Jax November 2001 from FBCJax Watchdog on Vimeo.

In Geisler's "defense" of Caner he does not deal with the FBC Jax November 2001 sermon.

I was there when he preached it, I've spoken to many others that were there, and we all had the same impression from his sermon: this man whom we never heard before was a terrorist, a "Jihadist" trained in Europe, who came to America to commit 9/11 style attacks but was saved just in the nick of time. Caner purposely led us to that conclusion. He cleverly deceived 10,000 worshippers with his story that day, while our pastor Jerry Vines sat right behind him nodding and amening, affirming his story.

That day we were duped by Ergun Caner.

Boy, were we were gullible.

We trusted our pastor to not allow a man to deceive us behind the "sacred desk", yet that is exactly what happened.

We believed Gilyard's story in 1987 about being homeless, living under a bridge, but it was a lie.

We believed Caner's story in 2001 about being raised in Europe as a Jihadist trained to "do that which was done on 11 September". Actually, he was trained to be an average midwestern boy like I was.

But it was a lie. His sermon that day started with a lie of his name, telling us: "My name is Ergun Mi'kael Mehmet Giovani Janel". He claimed to have spoken a "different language" than English as a high schooler. He claimed to speak poor English as a high schooler. Geisler does not deal with that.

He fooled us with his fake Middle Eastern accent when he pronounced "Europe" and "America."

Geisler needs to write a post explaining the entire farce of a sermon at FBC Jax, if he is to provide a complete defense of Ergun Caner.

So keep on defending him, Geisler. Or just let it rest, and let's see if Caner asks for forgiveness from those he has fooled.

48 comments:

MK said...

A response to Norman Geisler by Mohammad Khan:

http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/responsetonormangeisler.htm

Thy Peace said...

Hearing this segment again, you have to credit Ergun Caner for his delivery, timing and poise. No doubt he is a gifted speaker. But lot of lies in this speech. And the pronunciation. Riding on the coattails of 9/11. Shame on you Ergun Caner. There was no need to embellish and lie like this.

I have now come to a point where I will disregard personal testimonies that are too good to be true as delivered by preachers.

Anonymous said...

I do not see how a Seminary can retain in employment one who willingly and repeatedly deceives an audience to enhance his reputation.

If there was repentance such repentance should be made public since the offense was public.

Junkster said...

Just as the Caner's "factual statements that are self-contradictory" serve to diminish him as a Christian apologist against Islam, Geisler's continued defense of Caner will serve to diminish Geisler's work as a Christian apologist.

Geisler's lack of reference to, and apparent lack of familiarity with, primary source materials regarding Caner's "misstatements", greatly weakens Geisler's defenses of Caner. Geisler needs to extract himself from his position as apologist for Caner (or do a far better job of it than he has so far), if Geisler wants to continue to be taken seriously as an apologist for Christ.

Bennett Willis said...

Do we have any indication that Dr. Geisler has watched the sermon? Other than the comment that he has examined the evidence.

Anonymous said...

Geisler's defense has way too many words. At some point you cross over into ineffectiveness when you talk too much.

Thy Peace said...

It appears the text of Geisler's defense of Ergun Caner, whose origin is Ergun Caner himself ...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Of Joseph Smith and Ergun Caner (Part 4)

Now, in the preceding materials we have seen a breath-taking array of logical and factual errors on the part of Norman Geisler. Yes, I know, it seems he is simply repeating the faux defenses offered by Caner himself (I have a very strong feeling we are seeing the essence of the document Caner would only give to people who came by his office back in April), but he has put it out, without attestation, under his own name. And just as he put out a class project of attempted refutations of my work under his name in the second edition of Chosen But Free, he is responsible for what he puts out under his own name. This attempted defense requires the abandonment of the very methods of thought and inquiry that Norman Geisler has promoted in his published works for years. A defense like this would make Joseph Smith a true prophet, as we have noted a number of times in passing.
...
We can only speculate indeed. But when you have a man of Norman Geisler's reputation willing to sacrifice his reputation and credibility in defense of the kind of serial myth-making that has been documented beyond question regarding Ergun Caner, you know other forces are at work. When Norman Geisler can remove dishonesty in the pulpit as a violation of Christian morality, it is time to look for the real reasons this is happening.

Anonymous said...

Tom Rich,

A yes or no question for you:

Do you believe Ergun Caner is your brother in Christ?

Yes or no?

No "I'm not his judge," etc. Just a simple yes or no.

Again, do you believe Ergun Caner is your brother in Christ?

New BBC Open Forum said...

anon 12:57 a.m.,

Read, please...

Anonymous said...

This entire Ergun Caner saga is a big warning to pastors and churches.

Do NOT invite people into your pulpits who have fantastic stories if neither you nor someone you know really knows them and their story.

This is especially true if the person is from another country or region where he, his upbringing etc. are completely unknown to your church and people. This can especially be true, and I hate to say this, when people come to the U.S. from other countries.

Churches are taken all the time by stuff like this.

We are not a church that has a lot of special speakers. The main reason is that we have a specific direction and plan for the training and discipleship of our people. It does not involve interruptions and unrelated speeches, even if they are good.

We also do not want to foster a celebrity culture in our church. We do not want our church to become part of the celebrity book tour or the latest stop on the speaking circuit.

A couple of years ago there was an internationally known preacher who is popular on the radio who happened to be in town with lots of other speakers for a religious convention. Someone who knew him and who knew our church contacted me to see if we would like to have him speak at our church on Sunday morning. The church leadership talked about it with the pastor and we unanimously decided that it was more important for our pastor to keep preaching through Romans than for us to hear someone famous from out of town give a good sermon that was totally unrelated to the local vision and ministry of our church.

We have only had 2 special speakers in our church since its founding 18 years ago. They are 2 missionaries who are known by and loved by our congregation - Rodney Hammer and Andy Linegar (sp?).

This is the second time that Dr. Falwell and Liberty have been fooled. They were big promoters of Darryl Gilyard (homeless, raised under a bridge etc.) and now Ergun Caner.

I heard a story that one of Dr. Falwell's close preacher friends called Dr. Falwell shortly after the Darryl Gilyard story broke.

He called Dr. Falwell to tell him that another one of Falwell's regular guest preachers was fake.

He said, "Jerry, are you sitting down? I hate to tell you this, but David Ring does not have cerebral palsy, or any sort of disease. He has been faking all these years."

There was a long pause at the end of the line. Then he said, "I'm just kidding."

Happy 4th!

Louis

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 12:57 am. The following post:

A Coherent Defense of Ergun Caner

answers your question.

By the way, in the FBC Jax sermon, Caner alleges to be in "Jihad" twice...first time was saying he was in Islamic Youth Jihad, trained to do that which was done on 11 September.

The 2nd time saying "...though I was in Jihad, you were at war as well, because if you are at war with God, God wants to win you, not kill you, but convert you."

"as well" means he was "at war" too, as a Jihadist.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Louis - I agree with you completely, too bad there are not more church leaders who see things like yours when it comes to the celebrity preaching circuit.

But that is part of the sadness of this case. FBC Jax was fooled twice as well, by Gilyard and by Caner. What makes it worse, is that our church was USED as the spring board for these guys to make it on the preaching circuit, as well as the notoriety of our pastor and our church.

I wonder who #3 will be? That is the question, and people at churches who are part of the "circuit" should be on guard. I'm with Thy Peace who posted yesterday that he shall be skeptical of fantastic personal testimonies delivered by preachers from now on.

Anonymous said...

"The main reason is that we have a specific direction and plan for the training and discipleship of our people. It does not involve interruptions and unrelated speeches, even if they are good."

Training of "our" people? My goodness. I think you need some 'training' yourself not deciding what it should be for other people.

Louis, you lied on this blog a while back about not "anticipating working in any capacity with the SBC". Then it was found you were appointed to an SBC related Board. In effect, you simply lied.

Why should your words have any credibility here?

Anonymous said...

A yes or no question for you:

Do you believe Ergun Caner is your brother in Christ?

Yes or no?

No "I'm not his judge," etc. Just a simple yes or no.

Again, do you believe Ergun Caner is your brother in Christ?

July 4, 2010 12:57 AM

Perhaps you should define what you mean by a Christian. What IS a Christian?


Do you believe Mike Warnke was your brother in Christ when he was proclaiming Christ all the while lying about his past? (And making money doing it, too. Does that sound like a Christian brother?)

Or was he a fraud? If he was a fraud, how is Caner different? Is he different because he was at Liberty? And Liberty carries influence? It really helps to think this stuff through and most importantly, define what IS a Christian.

And no, it does not mean one is a Christian because one says they believe Jesus Christ is Lord. Satan believes that, too.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:57. How about you answering this question. WHY does a person have to make up stories that are not true and tell them to other believers? What real PURPOSE underlies these stories.

Anonymous said...

Why did LU announce a new interim dean (Dan Mitchell) and then pull the news article from their website?

Weird.

Scott said...

I love the one thing that goes unspoken is this:

Had Ergun Caner truly been a former Jihadist trained to do what was done on 9/11, he would have not been out speaking about his conversion, he would have been in some compound having to answer a bunch of questions like where was he trained, how was he trained, and who did the training. Also, they would have been very curious about how he managed to get trained while attending high school in Columbus, Ohio.

The government saw he was a fake long before the church realized it.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Scott - the public documents still not reviewed, and a speech still not listened to...is what Caner told the Marines back in 2005 or 2006. That will be very interesting to see what he said back then to our troops. Those likely will be revealed eventually, so stay tuned to the blogosphere.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers: here is Mo Khan's response to Geisler.

Lydia said...

"Had Ergun Caner truly been a former Jihadist trained to do what was done on 9/11, he would have not been out speaking about his conversion, he would have been in some compound having to answer a bunch of questions like where was he trained, how was he trained, and who did the training. Also, they would have been very curious about how he managed to get trained while attending high school in Columbus, Ohio."

Scott, if you were around in the early days when this scandal broke, these questions were asked. The reason they were asked is because some of the Caner defenders were declaring that Caner was being threatened by Muslims.

I asked if he had contacted the FBI/Homeland Security folks about these threats. No answer.

If he was trained by Jihadist in a Ohio Mosque, then he owed it to this country to report all his Mosque contacts to the FBI after 9/11. And perhaps even after the bombing of the Twin Towers parking garage in 93 that was supposed to bring down the Tower but did not.

If what Caner says is true, then he would have known that Jihadist lived among us then, too.

My perception now that all has come out is that Caner spent some time in the Islamic Cultural Center (for lack of a better description) with his dad attending parties for kids.

Thy Peace said...

We had Ergun Caner speaking on [Jihadism and as an expert] ...

Freedom Federation > The Awakening Schedule - April 15 -16, 2010

Friday 8:00 – 9:15 AM – TRBC

Israel, the Middle East, and Military Readiness

- 8:00 – 9:15 Welcome by Dean Mat Staver
- Music by Maurice Sklar and Opening Prayer
- Art Ally – The Timothy Plan – Opening Comments
- Vice Prime Minister of Israel Moshe Ya’alon – A Message to the Freedom Federation
- Israeli Member of the Knesset for Likud and Chairman of World Likud Danny Danon – Jihadism and the Threat to Western Values
- Concluding Remarks by Dr. Ergun Caner
-----------------------------------
4. Defense Readiness and the Threat of Jihadism.
- Becky Norton Dunlop – Track Leader
- Dr. Ergun Caner.
- James Lafferty
-----------------------------------

Friday Evening 6:30 – 10:15 PM – TRBC

Liberty and Justice Rally: The Millennial Generation and the Future

6:30 – 10:15 Music by LU Praise Team, Eddie James, and Maurice Sklar
Opening Prayer and Introduction of Lou Engle
Lou Engle – Prayer and Revival
Music by Eddie James
Bishop Harry Jackson – The Family and our Future
Lou Engle – Prayer and Music by LU Praise Team and Eddie James
Matt Mihelic – Defending the Helpless: Restoring a Culture of Life
Bishop W.C. Martin – Testimony about Adoption
Music by Maurice Sklar
Rev. Samuel Rodriguez – Righteousness and Justice
Music by Eddie James and Maurice Sklar
Johnnie Moore – Justice and the Role of Government
Dr. Tim Clinton – My Faith Matters
Dr. Ergun Caner – No Room for Cowards.
Dean Mat Staver – The Road Ahead
Concluding Group Prayer – Lou Engle, Harry Jackson, Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, Dr. Ergun Caner and Dean Mat Staver
Praise and Worship – LU Praise Team, Eddie James, and Maurice Sklar
Concluding Remarks by Johnnie Moore

Anonymous said...

Dr. Caner--if you are reading all of these websites, please just publically explain to us how these where slips of the tongue...little misstatements that we are all confused about. If Dr. Geisler, Peter L, Tim G, Tim R and others can explain the statements, can't you at least explain some of them to us?

http://razorskiss.net/2010/05/15/questions-that-deserve-answers/

Anonymous said...

So are you saying 'Dog that you don't trust Dr. Vines' character vetting?

As one who was saved and grew up at FBC Jax I fully trust my pastor then and my pastor now.

I know my friend to be consistent about his testimony and would task you to stop blogging about other's testimonies and go share your own with a lost man, the way Drs. Lindsay, Vines, and Brunson lead and challenge us to do.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:54
You have a poor memory. Our former pastor, Dr. Vines, was 2 for 2 in NOT vetting speakers appropriately. He brought in Caner whose own words have proven him (Caner) a liar. And remember the now convicted sex offender, Darrell Gilyard, hmmm? He was a "special" Vines project. The Lord commands us to test the spirits, not blindly follow someone just because he has Rev. in front of his name. Remember the preacher/cult leader Jim Jones of KoolAid fame whose followers killed themselves because he ordered them too. That may be an extreme example, but we are to "judge the fruit" as Dr. Lindsay used to say, using God's Word as a guide for everyone. That includes preachers.

Anonymous said...

I know my friend to be consistent about his testimony and would task you to stop bloggingabout other's testimonies and go share your own with a lost man, the way Drs. Lindsay, Vines, and Brunson lead and challenge us to do.

July 4, 2010 4:54 PM

===============================
Ugh!
I left FBCJ because of witnessing the poor testimonies of deacons ruling over people who themselves were divorced, who had messed up kids and participated in drinking "adult beverages".

Yeah, kinda gaggy when I had to watchone of them reading scripture on the pulpit - they were no role models to this believer, but they did have money and status in the community.

Unfortunately consistency from those individuals were only "inside" the church.

I would match Mr. Rich's testimony and credibility in witnessing to the lost any day with any of the leadership & staff at FBCJ - his testimony is consistent as well.

It is comments like yours when I want to sign my real name, but been around enough years to know how the game is played at FBCJ, so for now, as you do, I remain anonymous!

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:36: Ditto your remarks...Double UGH!!! Been there seen that.

debbiekaufman said...

Anonymous: I love the ole I'm more spiritual than you and I witness to people you don't line. Yet you have time to comment here several times right? Amazing.

It's used often to shut people up. But, as long as we allow sin to enter into our churches, smudging the name of Christ, we won't be able to witness and be taken seriously. Rightfully so. Paul stood against false preachers dedicating chapters to speaking against them in scripture, are you going to tell me that because he did this he did not give the Gospel to anyone? The scriptures say differently, yet he had time to write many, many chapters in scripture. Go figure.

Anonymous said...

Judgement must first begin at the Church. If it doesn't then all the other chatter is just falling on deaf ears!!! The people would have it so.

Anonymous said...

WD, How come the video does not play the whole sermon?

Anyway, if anyone listens to the first 3 min, they can see what a liar Caner is. He made all that up to be shocking. Raised in Europe? Trained in Jihad?

He is a performer. Anyone else notice it is mostly about him and a little bit about Jesus?

Anonymous said...

It could be that Caner was trained in Jihad, in the same sense that I was trained to play Major League Baseball. - The same way that millions of boys are trained to play Major League Baseball.

through Little League, Jr. High and High School.

Of course my career peaked and ended around the age of 17.

Good grief. - ALL young muslims are "trained in Jihad" that's what all Islamic training really is.

The entire religion of Islam is Jihad! - It's entire effort is to wage a Holy War!

Anonymous said...

"Good grief. - ALL young muslims are "trained in Jihad" that's what all Islamic training really is."

Indoctrinated toward Jihad is a bit different than 'trained' in Jihad. Where did he practice making bombs?

The indoctrination is a foregone conclusion if they are actually studying the Koran and Hadith. But most don't read it much less study it.

And if he did not mean 'trained' in Jihad, then why did he publish the picture of him practicing with a gun as kid to reinforce that thinking? (Some claim it looks like a BB gun that any 10 year old would get back then)

Anonymous said...

Doesn't everyone embellish or in some way lie about their "testimony"?

Anonymous said...

Back in the day, when men were men and jihadists weren't from Ohio, if a guy was wrong he just ate the crow---plain, no seasoning, feathers and all. Just ate the crow. Today, what's with folk who profess to having had a life-changing personal experience of salvation with the risen Lord Jesus Christ BUT are caught in lies---and, what's worse, what's up with their supposedly-Christian friends?!

A better way: "For all the wrong that I've done, I'm sincerely sorry and have learned my lesson. For anything about which I've been right and ought to, I totally forgive wrongs against me. Might we all go for hamburgers now---I'll buy?" Just an idea to bring about resolution.

Anonymous said...

What's the point? The preachers always "stonewall", and ride it out. They never admit they are wrong. Neither will the preachers that support or defend those that they have mentored and brought into the pulpits to "fool" the people. If they "hang on" long enough, maybe it will just go away, and they can get back to "BUSINESS". That's really the main problem. It isn't so much that they want to defend a wayward fellow preacher. It's that they supported a phony in the first place and they don't want to admit they got fooled themselves. After all THEY are perfect don't you know. You poor slobs in the pews just pay them. I have really asked myself "what do people pay them for". No one needs these guys. They are less "perfect" than I am. I have decided to read my own Bible and save my money. AND GO ON MY OWN SHOPPING SPREE.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't everyone embellish or in some way lie about their "testimony"?

July 5, 2010 5:38 PM

Hell is going to be quite full if so many think this sort of thing is normal for a believer.

Anonymous said...

"Doesn't everyone embellish or in some way lie about their "testimony"?"

A true believer is so grateful for what God has done in their life that he/she does not have to embellish or lie about their personal testimony..."when someone becomes a Christian, he/she becomes a "new" person.

Right, there are ones who deceive us but God tugs at their hearts to tell the truth. Many of us have watched individuals who served in some capacity in the church walk the isle and confess that they really were not saved - for example I recall Rodney Brooks humbling himself and doing this when we all believed, especially him being a Rev., leading one of America's best choirs was indeed a saved man - we believed him until he told the truth.

But wrong, everyone does not lie or embellish our personal testimonies!

Anonymous said...

"Doesn't everyone embellish or in some way lie about their "testimony"?"

A true believer is so grateful for what God has done in their life that he/she does not have to embellish or lie about their personal testimony..."when someone becomes a Christian, he/she becomes a "new" person.

Right, there are ones who deceive us but God tugs at their hearts to tell the truth. Many of us have watched individuals who served in some capacity in the church walk the isle and confess that they really were not saved - for example I recall Rodney Brooks humbling himself and doing this when we all believed, especially him being a Rev., leading one of America's best choirs was indeed a saved man - we believed him until he told the truth.

But wrong, everyone does not lie or embellish our personal testimonies!

Anonymous said...

This makes me laugh every time I listen to it. Its so embarassing and straight lies.

Anonymous said...

8:45: I guess that's my (crow-eating) point.

Testimony: what's to embellish? "I wasn't as spiritually dead as the Bible says people are before Jesus came into my life . . ."---or, "I was more dead spiritually than the Bible says before Jesus came into MY life!" We all were just dead---WHATEVER we each did do demonstrate God's point and the hard reality. And, we all got save exactly the same way: by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Anonymous said...

I gather Caner is another Warnke......"Lord, show me the way take me and wash my illusions away"....please stop this stuff Lord!

Anonymous said...

OK. The rest of the summer is on you alone, WD; Wade B. is on sabbatical for the rest of the summer.

Keep up the good work, fair and balance.

:- }

Lynn said...

I think EC and others like him have made fools out of Baptists. They should say to him, "How dare you! We may have faith, but we're not idiots! Shame on you for lying to us!"

And Geisler has sacrificed his dignity and credibility for EC. Why?

HQ said...

Honest Question:

When there was a public confrontation or address of someones sin did , at any time, the one being confronted make a public apology?

Paula said...

Several comments ask why Geisler would do what he did, why he would openly defend a proven liar. There is an answer, but most people refuse to consider it: an unseen hand. By that I mean a person or group that stays in the shadows and hands down orders... orders that cannot be refused. There are "brotherhoods" that would love to be thought mere "conspiracy theories"; it's perfect cover. But when nothing else makes sense, this unseen hand is probably behind it.

The very structure of "church" fosters hierarchy and class distinctions, but above all, an individual or small group of elites who control larger numbers of people in some way. When one has such leaders in their pocket, one wields unimaginable power-- with unimaginable corruption. And because we only see the surface, we can't make sense of it.

The only way I know of to dry up the power to such shadow-dwellers is to try up the river of money. Give directly to small charitable groups with low overhead, or even individuals you know. Support local believers in need instead of paying out to larger, remote organizations. The first to scream "TITHE!" will be the lowest-level shills. The next wave of screams will come from the middlemen. The silence after that will be from the roaches that crawled back under their rocks to hide-- until they can start over.

pastorhatfield said...

show me the proof that this true. other than your blogs. all of you people need to go back to fbc and learn to submit to spiritual authority. God will NEVER bless you until you do.

Paula said...

all of you people need to go back to fbc and learn to submit to spiritual authority

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the Christian's only spiritual authorities. No man is. Do you read Greek, "pastor"? Those proof-texts in the last chapter of Hebrews have NO word for authority regarding leaders.

Is Phil. 2:5-11 in your Bible? What did Jesus do? He set His divine authority down in order to lift up His Bride, then returned to His former glory, and ALL AUTHORITY was given to Him. Not to you.

Humility is a virtue many "pastors" have yet to learn.

pastorhatfield said...

Paula:
The proof texts say nothing of authority. what does the word rule mean?
Yes Christ is the preeminent one in His Church, but God does have a chain of command

Paula said...

The proof texts say nothing of authority. what does the word rule mean?
Yes Christ is the preeminent one in His Church, but God does have a chain of command


No, God does not have a "chain of command"... unless you recognize the upside-down one Jesus gave to his disciples. They were fighting over "who was the greatest"... as many still do today. Jesus said "Let the one sitting at the table take the place of the waiter". Will you do that, "pastor"? Will you step down from your high office and truly serve? Jesus came "not to be served, but to serve". You can't be both the one at the table and the waiter. Likewise, the "under rower" does not wear a uniform and stand at the helm. And who fights for the lowest place? The fact that you would consider it a place of authority tells me you do not consider it lowly service.

All authority is in Jesus, in His Word. Christian leaders do so by example, not decree. What do you think Jesus meant when He said,

"5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." (Mt. 23:5-12)


Now put the word "Pastor" where "rabbi" is, and "church" where "synagogue" is.

If you are truly gifted with "pastoring", prove it by your attitude toward other believers: treat them as your superiors; do not lord over; be the example; be humble; guide instead of ruling; do not consider yourself a more important or authoritative "part of the Body" than any other. Does your hand give orders to your foot?

Christians need to realize that our spiritual gifts are not offices.