"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, July 2, 2010

Chris Rosebrough: Caner Kept on Staff at LU to Not Give Victory to Calvinists and Bloggers

One of my favorite Christian bloggers and commenters is Chris Rosebrough, the founder of Fighting for the Faith radio broadcast and Pirate Christian Radio. He broadcasts several times a week from Fishers, Indiana, and is a one-man show who is supported by mostly small donors who listen to his broadcast on I-Tunes and read his blogs and various other websites. His motto is "Comparing what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God." Much better than the SBC Motto: "Listening to God by listening to and obeying what the preacher says." More on Chris at the end of this article if you're interested.

But Rosebrough weighed in on the LU Caner decision during his 6/28/10 broadcast, and made some very interesting comments I want to share with my readers. He laughed and chuckled at the ridiculousness of the Liberty statement, calling it "corporate speak" and "political spin" and a statement which means very little - but to make sense of what the committee's findings were you have to look only at the ACTIONS Liberty took. They are what matters, not their goofy statement. No matter what they SAY, their actions speak loudly: the committee found that Caner lied, he had lied to Liberty University, and they had to get rid of him.

But here is Rosebrough's analysis of why they did not totally can Caner.

The story was rooted in and pushed by people Liberty viewed as adversaries, said Rosebrough, and they couldn't stand to give any victory to their opponents for fear that it would embolden them. A total dismissal of Caner would be seen as a victory for their opponents: Calvinists and bloggers.

Here are Rosebrough's comments on the "bloggers" who were instrumental in "pushing" the story until it eventually made its way to what Liberty considered "credible news agencies":

"They [Liberty] couldn't give the bloggers a win, you don't want to give the bloggers a win because all that does is give them credibility and embolden them. You can't let bloggers look like they have any credibility at all. And remember, whenever somebody talks about bloggers - and by the way I'm one of them - they don't ever address the content of the bloggers' points, they always instead go to an ad hominem argument where they basically say 'Listen, these bloggers, they're a bunch of people in their 40's who live in their mom's basement and probably sit on bean bag chairs in their underwear eating Cheatos all day...these are people who are malcontents and really mentally unstable.'

They never deal with the content of the arguments brought up by bloggers, instead they always go with the ad hominem....If they canned Caner that would have been seen as a big, big win for bloggers and people who are supposed to be non-credible."

I agree completely - notice he said critics of bloggers paint them as "mentally unstable"...oh how true, and I would add also as "sociopaths" and "cowards". Can't give those recalcitrant bloggers credibility at all.

Funny thing is, while I believe Rosebrough's assessment is correct, we do know one of the LU investigating committee members who is very credible, had enough sense to reach out to bloggers to get their assistance in gathering source documentation to complete their investigation. That must REALLY chap the hineys of Caner and his staunch defenders - the committee sought the help of bloggers, but apparently didn't call Tim Rogers or Peter Lumpkins. Ouch.

But we all know that the Caner decision is a victory for TRUTH - its not about bloggers or Calvinists or Muslims - it's about a decade of deceit perpetuated by Ergun Caner that has done great harm to the cause of Christ, that has finally been exposed and hopefully stopped. While many don't think Liberty went far enough, and their statement is certainly embarrasing - they took the right action, and Caner will be gone about the time a new seminary president is named, in my opinion.

Now, excuse me while I get up out of my bean bag chair and fetch some more Cheetohs...."Hey Mom, I'm out of Cheetohs!!!!"
------------------------------

Some additional thoughts on Rosebrough: Rosebrough is theologically very sound - he is gospel-centered and he is dedicated to exposing false doctrine wherever he sees it no matter if it is in the SBC, or non-denominational churches. He regularly exposes error at Saddleback and in Rick Warren's sermons and other "purpose driven" and "emergent" churches. He has been a harsh critic of Perry Noble's NewSpring Church in South Carolina, and he pulled no punches in his criticism of Ed Young's jet and lavish lifestyle - and he gave expert analysis of Young's "dog and pony show" when Young brought in John Cross and Mac Richard (prounounced re-SHARD) to tell everyone how wonderful Young is, and to explain why private jet travel is needed for Young.

His broadcasts are quite humorous - he has parody/lampoon segments poking fun at false doctrine. He does sermon reviews (egads!), and pulls no punches when preachers get out of line. I believe he is reformed in his theology, he is a Lutheran, but no question he is a solid Christian believer.

His goal is very simple: he wants people to be discerners in their churches. He wants people to compare what their preachers are saying in the name of God, to what the word of God actually says. He has an undergrad in religious studies, has an MBA from Pepperdine, and has political and corporate work experience. He ain't a professional religious man, if you get my drift.

And very important: he is independent in that his financial support is very much grass roots. He is not entrenched in a denominational power structure and beholden to church leaders. No CP dollars going to Chris! He encourages his listeners to become "Crew Members" for a monthly $6.95 donation.

He would not be a favorite of the SBC'ers, because of his more reformed views, and worst of all, he might drink an adult beverage from time to time.

You can subscribe to his radio broadcast via I-Tunes here.

64 comments:

gary dilworth said...

WD you said, "That must REALLY chap the hineys of Caner and his staunch defenders - the committee sought the help of bloggers, but apparently didn't call Tim Rogers or Peter Lumpkins. Ouch."
It also chaps their hineys when Liberty removed Caner as President: "..
the committee’s words and actions do not mesh. The issue that everyone points to is that Dr. Caner was “demoted” from President to Professor. One blogger even claims to have insight that Dr. Jerry Falwell Jr. insisted on Dr. Caner being retained as professor. If that blogger is correct, and has that kind of behind the scenes access at Liberty University, then LU needs to seriously examine their staff. When an egalitarian has that kind of connections in a complimentarian university there will be serious troubles in the future for Liberty. Whether Dr. Jerry Falwell Jr. insisted or not is not the issue. Liberty has taken an action that appears to be tied to their investigation. However, that action does not express the words of the statement. How can one be found to have apologized for mis-statements that were not lies, and found to be factual about one’s background, but does not get a renewal of a contract? And the contract that one does get is a contract to continue on in the position of teaching these young minds? The statement and actions are dichotomous at the least."
That's Tim Rogers on June 29 "To Clear from Acussation or Blame" (defending his use of the word 'exonerated').

And Rosebrough has it pegged, the actions of LU tell the real story on how they view Caner's behavior.

Great post, WD.

Anonymous said...

Rosenbrough actually went to meet Rick Warren. And he came away believing what is true about Warren. A very charismatic guy with a great personality who changes his views depending on who he is talking to. This is why Piper has been snowed by Warren. He actually believed Warren.

Anonymous said...

Cheetos?

I thought it was powdered donuts.

This whole thing is just sad. I would not be surprised to see Ergun Caner out of Liberty in a few years.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Just a few more weary days and then....

Caner will be back, stronger than ever. Don't believe me?

He is speaking at David Jeremiah's Bible Conference in August (http://shadowmountain.org/default.aspx?page=4309) and at a big youth event in January (http://www.strengthtostand.com/conferences/smoky/). That's just the ones that have been announced.

Sad, but true.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Purpose Driven did anyone notice Bill Hybels introducing Obama yesterday in Wisconsin?

Anonymous said...

"Baseball Managers, Ergun Caner and Moving On": http://wp.me/p6Lea-5X

Anonymous said...

The more things change the more they remain the same. Are there no "real" churches and preachers any longer? Politicians and preachers...what's the difference?

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Purpose Driven...Did anyone notice Bill Hybels introducing Obama at Wisconsin yesterday?

Anonymous said...

Once you are in the "Old Boys Club" its almost impossible for you to lose that status. Thats why it is a CLUB!!!

Anonymous said...

" One blogger even claims to have insight that Dr. Jerry Falwell Jr. insisted on Dr. Caner being retained as professor. If that blogger is correct, and has that kind of behind the scenes access at Liberty University, then LU needs to seriously examine their staff. When an egalitarian has that kind of connections in a complimentarian university there will be serious troubles in the future for Liberty. "

Gary, what "egalitarian" are you referring to?

Anonymous said...

The speaking engagements will pick up steam. That is how they communicate to us that someone is exonerated.

They expect you to accept that because of who they are and their titles. They expect to be believed and followed. Even obeyed.

That is the narcissism that has become Christian "leadership".

Run away from them. Quit giving them money.

Mike DeLong said...

Did Rosebrough give any clue as to why he thinks this? Does he actually have a credible source inside Liberty?

I have heard several opinions as to why Caner is still on staff, but I haven't yet heard a good reason to pick between them.

Hint: I doubt it's about bloggers. Caner has been very popular at Liberty and at TRBC. I'd be more interested to know why the original Christianity Today article suggested he could be credited with tripling the size of the seminary. That quote came from somewhere, but I can't figure out where; I can't even verify that it is true.

Anonymous said...

Run away from them. Quit giving them money.
___________________________________

Amen! How about all believers of this blog sending their check to Chris Rosebrough this month instead of giving it to the budget of the local congregation where you get entertained each week. What a message that would send.

Or better yet, drop the check in the offering plate with a note designating the money go to Rosebrough so that the church has to send him a check! :)

test said...

test

Anonymous said...

So Sad to see the cause of Christ so mangled because of those who desire recognition for themselves. We need to remember what John the baptist said about Christ "he must increase but I must decrease" Jack

gary dilworth said...

anon @ 10:44am you asked, "Gary, what "egalitarian" are you referring to?"
Tim Rogers wrote that, I am quoting him (his statements are in quotes and I attributed it to him at the end of the quote, but I will be clearer next time). And I think WD is who he may be referring to, though I could be wrong. Tell me if I'm wrong WD. But I read, I think on Wade Burleson's blog a comment that said Jerry Falwell insisted Caner be offered a contract teaching for a year. If WD says it's not him, I'll go find who said that and bring the info here.
My point though is even Caner's defenders recognize LU's actions are what carries the weight, as TR indicates, however begrudgingly.

Anonymous said...

gary,

paragraphs would help your comments communicate more clearly.

Anonymous said...

anon @ 10:44am you asked, "Gary, what "egalitarian" are you referring to?"
Tim Rogers wrote that, I am quoting him (his statements are in quotes and I attributed it to him at the end of the quote, but I will be clearer next time). And I think WD is who he may be referring to, though I could be wrong. Tell me if I'm wrong WD. But I read, I think on Wade Burleson's blog a comment that said Jerry Falwell insisted Caner be offered a contract teaching for a year. If WD says it's not him, I'll go find who said that and bring the info here.
My point though is even Caner's defenders recognize LU's actions are what carries the weight, as TR indicates, however begrudgingly.

July 2, 2010 2:19 PM

Paragraphs would help it to be clearer

Thy Peace said...

Christianity Today > Ergun Caner Out as Seminary Dean

Thy Peace said...

All the below posts are from CRBC Pastoral Blog [Tom Chantry]:

Encountering Charles Finney

Charles Finney’s Stepchildren

…and Finney begat Caner…

Banishing Finney

The nefarious effect of this crass substitution of the evangelist for the Spirit has all but killed Christian witness in our day. Whereas Christians once proclaimed a Triune, saving God, today's evangelicals become confused as to why the Trinity matters. Once Christians understood that salvation is all about the Father who ordains redemption, the Son who accomplishes it, and the Spirit who applies. Today we say instead that Jesus saves, so long as the preacher can talk you (or trick you) into letting Him do it. If therefore we would have revival, we must have preachers who, like Finney, can produce extraordinary conversion counts.

Anonymous said...

For all astute Bible believers remember this one fact: During the last days, good will be taken as evil and evil will be thought of as good. Need I say anymore?

Watchdog, thanks for being so consistent!!!! You are really good and I mean good rather than evil. Hang in there to the very end and be counted worthy.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Mike - I don't think Rosebrough has connections in LU, it just stands to reason: they demoted the guy big time. He's took a huge fall, and will probably be gone soon. I don't think the new prez will want him around but will want to rebuild their cred and removing Caner will be job 1.

So why not just get rid of him altogether? To save at least some face of the SBC heavy hitters who promoted Caner, and to not give the Calvinists and the bloggers any kind of victory.

But Anon 10:46 is right also: speaking gigs will pick up now for Caner.

He is the wounded warrior, and for a time people will give him the gigs.

It happened with Mac Brunson last year. After it came out in the media in April 2009 about the sheriff's office outting me to FBC Jax, and Mac calling me a sociopath in the newspaper, that year he said he had more offers to speak to churches and state conventions than ever. Go figure.

But Caner knows he will be watched, and any more shenanigans about "Jihad to Jesus" and Dukes of Hazard and watching Harry Carey in Istanbul when the censors let it in, or calling himself a "sand nigger" and "towel head"....and the bloggers will let everyone know.

So as I've said before, he will either need a new routine, or he will actually have to be like other "boring" preachers and just go around preaching the word and drop the "I'm an olive skinned towel head" schtick.

Anonymous said...

"It happened with Mac Brunson last year. After it came out in the media in April 2009 about the sheriff's office outting me to FBC Jax, and Mac calling me a sociopath in the newspaper, that year he said he had more offers to speak to churches and state conventions than ever. Go figure."

WATCHDOG!
Mac did go on a great number of speaking gigs and because of his absence and time away from his flock, he lost a lot of members - why support a church whose Senior Pastor is there only part time of the year?

I fully agree with the comments of 6:02pm - this blog has been a testimony of speaking the truth in love.

Anonymous said...

"I don't think the new prez will want him around but will want to rebuild their cred and removing Caner will be job 1.
"

The new Prez will take orders from Falwell, Jr. So, we will see. Chances are that Caner's massive ego will have a hard time with someone else in his office.

CheezeWhizChurch said...

From the CT story: "While Caner's misstatements have become unusually public, they are hardly unique to him," said Chantry. The bigger problem is that "it fails to appear scandalous to Christians who have become comfortable with the idea that preachers regularly tell fibs in the pulpit."

That is one of the problems, all right. When pastors are regurgitating sermons they've borrowed from sermon sharing sites or purchased online, they kind of get used to stretching the truth after a while. What's the big deal? Well, truth is kind of a big deal.

Anonymous said...

Interesting....I left a comment on the CT story about Geisler not looking at the evidence (comment was very polite) and the comment was removed. A few minutes later all the comments were gone. Either they removed them or something is wrong with my browser.

Thy Peace said...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > The Caner Scandal Becomes the Evangelical Cover-Up

I well know that the cost is escalating here, but again, I have no choice. Yes, the world is watching, and I hope they see that some evangelicals are still willing to pay a price for truth and consistency without retreating into pious platitudes. Yes, the Muslim apologetic community is watching, and at least some well know the truth of this situation. And ironically, may I point out that heaven itself is watching, and it is in that Court of Final Arbitration that I place my final appeal and trust. What will history say about all of this? I don't know, but I cannot stand before any audience and proclaim myself a follower of truth if I can so easily sell my commitment to it for the price of popularity and political ease. May the Lord of truth, the King of righteousness, send forth His Spirit to convict of sin, to bring true confession, and to bring glory to the name of Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

I love what God is doing---and clearly has done---through Rick Warren since 1980!

I guess you can say I'm a fan of God's and Rick Warren's, everybody!!

Anonymous said...

LU named an interim dean today...

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=20240

gary dilworth said...

anon @ 10:44am you asked, "Gary, what "egalitarian" are you referring to?"

I know I've explained to you I was quoting Tim Rogers. But I told you I thought Rogers was referring to WD. However, I looked for the comment, and found it. Here it is...


By Wade Burleson
Saturday June 26, 2010 "If Celebrity Were Integrity"

Here is the relavant quote:

"3). Dr. Caner will continue as a professor at Liberty.

According to the sources who have emailed me, this was purely the desire of Chancellor Jerry Falwell, Jr."

So, Rogers is referring to Wade Burleson as an egalitarian.

Junkster said...

Yeah, I loved how the charge of being an egalitarian was used as if it were something shocking and horrifying, some sort of indication that Liberty must have serious problems with its staff that they might associate with someone who holds to such an abominable heresy. As if being egalitarian automatically equates to being the worst form of sinner, a denier of scripture and all that is pure and holy. That just makes me chuckle. And kinda snort just a little.

Anonymous said...

I love what God is doing---and clearly has done---through Rick Warren since 1980!

I guess you can say I'm a fan of God's and Rick Warren's, everybody!!

July 2, 2010 9:59 PM

Please do not Blaspheme God. Which part do you like best of Ricks's?


Building a large church based upon our 'felt needs'?

Or the Covenant you sign as a member promising never to critisize the church or leadership?

Or perhaps you liked it when he went to Syria and proclaimed the Christians there have freedom and are not persecuted?

Or better yet, what about him taking PDL to Synagogues? (Gee, PDL works for Jews AND Muslims. Must not be of Christ...)

Oh, there is much more but most importantly, millions upon millions loved his book that stated it is not about you on page 1 then every page after was all about...YOU!

So, you going to pick up your cro...er...I mean pom poms and follow Warren? He is on the broad road.

Anonymous said...

"So, Rogers is referring to Wade Burleson as an egalitarian."

Thanks for clarifying and the paragraphs. I agree with the Junkster. Rogers could be easily saying that" murderer or thief" as well as ...egalitarian.

Rogers does seem to revere his preeminence over others. Egals believe in mutiality. Eph 5:21 is for everyone in the Body.

Anonymous said...

So, Rogers is referring to Wade Burleson as an egalitarian.

July 2, 2010 10:36 PM

I would bet Craig is a complimentarian. How many of you ladies out in blogland would like to 'submit' to Craig?

Junkster said...

It's interesting that Dan Mitchell was named as the interim Dean of Liberty Seminary, given his contentions in this article, which was published way back in 1988:

Disgraced Preachers: The Word is Malpractice

In this article, Mitchell contends that preachers should be held to at least the same sort of ethical standards as lawyers or medical doctors, including removal of the preachers guilty of unethical conduct from a position of ministry. Here are some interesting quotes:


Malpractice is a term applied to individuals in the professions who violate the legal or ethical code they vowed to uphold.



Malpractice is the term we must also apply to professional ministers of the gospel who violate their trust.



Is the standard for the preacher of the gospel any less than that of the medical or legal profession? Absolutely not! Indeed, there is no higher calling. We must correct the crisis in confidence that is generated by the present situation. More is at stake here than just the credibility of an offending preacher. When we fail to impose discipline, fallen preachers drag every minister of the gospel – indeed, the gospel itself – into the mire with them. Legitimate preachers and church leaders must call each other to accountability and demand compliance with God’s standard for ministry.

Here, of course, we are not concerned with doctrine but with
purity and credibility. We must expect those in positions of spiritual leadership to be faithful to their calling. If the lost cannot trust the preacher, how can they trust his message?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Yeah, I loved how the charge of being an egalitarian was used as if it were something shocking and horrifying, some sort of indication that Liberty must have serious problems with its staff that they might associate with someone who holds to such an abominable heresy."

Oh, the horrors! You know, in some circles that's as bad as being a calvinist... maybe worse.

{snort}

Anonymous said...

Has anyone noticed that several news articles including CT are quoting "Southern Baptists Today" as if it was an official publication of the SBC rather than a blogger site?

gary dilworth said...

I love what God is doing---and clearly has done---through Rick Warren since 1980!

I guess you can say I'm a fan of God's and Rick Warren's, everybody!!

July 2, 2010 9:59 PM

--------------------

Rick Warren let's Bishop Jakes come preach in Saddleback. And Jakes worships and preaches another christ, a monad- one person within one being- god. And Warren knows that Jakes believes in a different god from the Trinity. So Warren could care less about Jakes eternal destination, which is hell, unless Jakes repents. And Warren could care less about our Lord who Warren says that he believes. Cause if Warren did love the Lord, he would never ever let Jakes come preach another christ in Saddleback.

Anonymous said...

Junk,

My guess is that Mitchell has changed his tune since then. You know how it goes. Remember Frank Page's paper he did about women in ministry? He completely changed his tune, too, when he got the big position as SBC President.

But thanks for the link. Very interesting. Sort of like the Student Honor Code at Liberty that is not applicable to the President!

gary dilworth said...

I said, "Rick Warren let's Bishop Jakes come preach in Saddleback."

But I need to retract that statement. I got Saddleback confused with another west coast church: Conerstone in San Diego, CA.

Therefore what I went on to say was quite unfair to Mr. Warren. As such it is sin, and I repent of it, apologizing publicly to you all, and to Mr. Warren in particular. Here is what I said:

"So Warren could care less about Jakes eternal destination, which is hell, unless Jakes repents. And Warren could care less about our Lord who Warren says that he believes. Cause if Warren did love the Lord, he would never ever let Jakes come preach another christ in Saddleback."
------------------
I can find no evidence of Jakes preaching at Saddleback.

However, Saddlebackfamily.com speaks quite favorably of TD Jakes and extends unqualified approval of what Jakes teaches:

"Pastor and author T.D. Jakes states in his book, The Ten Commandments of Working in a Hostile Environment: “God purposely placed you right where you are. You may experience budget cuts, financial trouble, layoffs, or communication problems on your job. But God sent you there with an anointing to get the job done. He has a reason for his maneuver and you have a purpose for your life. Your co-workers don’t need a sermon; they can get that on television. Your job, however, is your pulpit. How you conduct yourself should reflect what you believe and serve as a testimony to God’s will" (2). (Living On Purpose In The Workplace by Ken Alvarado)

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the person who wrote so admiringly of Warren had the chance to read the transforming the church thread at Pastors.com (before they privatized it) would still think the same way.

It sounded like a bunch of wolves giving each other tips how to get rid of anyone in their churches who dared disagree with them. That is the legacy of Warren.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog,

I really enjoy your blog and completely support your cause. However, I don't feel you should endorse Chris Rosenbrough. I find his podcast hateful and judgmental. It seems as though anything that is not Lutheran is automatically in his sites.

I think he wants to drum up publicity, and so he has taken on a Glenn Beck persona- where everything he disagrees with is something that will DESTROY Christianity.

You do not want to be associated with that blog or podcast. You are doing the Lord's work, keep it up!

Bennett Willis said...

At the start of this discussion, I think that few of EC's "accusers" had any personal feelings about him. I know that I did not. He was simply a fellow (in a position of high status and trust) who had obviously distorted his life history. I regarded this situation as inappropriate and occasionally pointed out some issue or other. As time has passed and the extent of the distortion has become more apparent, my feelings toward EC have become better defined--and much more negative.

His "defenders" are significantly responsible for this. EC's "defenders" (almost) uniformly have attacked the messenger. They have done this with some of the most vicious words I have seen used on the Internet. I cannot recall anyone who defended EC doing so based on the information that is available. Some have pleaded for “innocent until proven guilty—and then disappeared now that the guilty verdict has come back. Some have said that we should wait for the LU report—and claimed that it “exonerated” EC. Some have "hypothesized" excuses for some of the statements—and have failed to produce documentation for their hypotheses. But the largest group by far has simply attacked the people who feel that EC needs to do something because much of his telling of his life story appears to be a fable.

The obvious conclusion is that EC made up things that improved his street credibility regarding Islam--this is his "Baptist street” credibility. LU decided that these lies mattered--but not so much. Norman Geisler decided that it did not matter at all--and had not even occurred. John Ankerberg saw and heard no evil—in fact he saw and heard nothing on this subject. We now have “too much information” about all of these.

The only thing that I personally have gained from all this is a lot of knowledge about both people in general and also about specific individuals. I’m ready to move on—and will do so as soon as the “defenders” stop trying to defend the indefensible. It may be a while.

This comment has been left on several threads.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - I respectfully disagree with you about Rosebrough. I have listened to him for quite some time. He most certainly is not pushing "Lutheran" theology. He rarely mentions his church, but is a very solid believer in Christ and the gospel. He doesn't care for this modernization of the gospel and all the marketing and gimmicks that church growers engage in, and he says so and uses scripture.

He really is after those folks like Rick Warren and Perry Noble that he calls "purpose driven" and also the "emergent church", and he is very analytical. He doesn't take pot shots, he analyzes the words they speak and comments on them. It is not at all personal but theological. He uses their own sermons, plays their sermons, and critiques their theology.

I'm not saying let's all go and follow Chris Rosebrough. I'm saying he is a voice of reason in the evangelical circles who is not afraid to take on the false teachers or those who go outside the bounds of what it is to be a pastor - like he was not afraid to call out Ed Young for his hypocrisy and his jet setting life style, and he's not afraid to take on Caner, and just this week he read an entire article by Ed Stetzer on "contextualization" and he gave a fair critique of that. His independence from being reliant on any church denomination allows him to be as frank as he is. I like it.

I don't at all see the comparison with Glenn Beck. Beck is a Mormon. He is a political commentator. Rosebrough is an evangelical believer and is calling out false doctrine as he sees it.

I like him, and recommend him to WD readers - but if you think he is not worth listening to, then pass him over.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I can find no evidence of Jakes preaching at Saddleback.

T.D. Jakes has preached at Ed Young, Jr.'s church, and Lifeway Christian Stores carries Jakes' books. In fact, someone asked Tom Rainer during a Q&A time at the the SBC this year why Lifeway continues to sell Jakes' books, and Rainer replied (basically) Lifeway sells what their customers buy.

Thy Peace said...

Norman Geisler > In Defense of Dr. Ergun Caner: A Response to His Critics

Thanks to Cheryl Schatz for the link.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:44: Sooo, what's wrong with Glenn Beck? I like him. At least he is honest and presents the truth. Wish we had more Glenn Beck's around!!! Especially in Baptist churches.

Anonymous said...

". Rosebrough is an evangelical believer and is calling out false doctrine as he sees it."

The commenter does not understand what Rosebrough is doing. He does the same thing that Ingrid Schlueter of the old "Slice of Laodicea" blog, did and is doing now with her Crosstalk Blog.

They are pointing out the commercialization of the Gospel. And what has become the circus of the church.

Baptists tend to have suspicion about anyone who is not Baptist. That is understandable but remember this: The SBC is no longer what we have always thought was distinctly Baptist: Priesthood of the Believers and Soul Competency.

Those things are pretty much long gone after the CR. We look more like Rome every day.

Thy Peace said...

Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Of Joseph Smith and Ergun Caner (Part 1)

Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Geisler Digs Yet Deeper!

Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Responding to Norman Geisler's Defense of Ergun Caner - Part 1

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Sooo, what's wrong with Glenn Beck?"

Haven't you heard? He's... shhhhh... Mormon.

Junkster said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
In fact, someone asked Tom Rainer during a Q&A time at the the SBC this year why Lifeway continues to sell Jakes' books, and Rainer replied (basically) Lifeway sells what their customers buy.


Well, duh -- any store sells what its customers buy, because the customers buy what the store sells. The customers can't buy what the store doesn't sell -- at least not at the store that doesn't sell it.

What he really means is they sell books that are making money for other stores, and it is more important to them that they make money selling books than that they sell good books. I'm all for a business maximizing profits, but that ought not to be the primary consideration for an SBC agency.

With that logic, they should starting teaching Jakes' theology in the SBC seminaries, because it would attract more students and thus bring in more tuition revenues to the seminaries. Then they could say "We teach that theology because it is what brings in the students."

Likewise, churches should stop teaching sound doctrine and focus on whatever brings in as many members as possible -- oh, wait -- that's already happening...

Anonymous said...

Did anyone see today's "Garfield" comic strip? Very appropriate to the Ergun Caner debacle:

Jon: "You can't change the past."

Garfield: "True. That's why they invented lying."

Says it all, doesn't it?

D

New BBC Open Forum said...
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New BBC Open Forum said...

"Well, duh -- any store sells what its customers buy, because the customers buy what the store sells. The customers can't buy what the store doesn't sell -- at least not at the store that doesn't sell it."

You know what I meant, wisenheimer. Here's the transcript of the questions asked and Thom Rainer's answers. (Sorry for my previous misspelling of his first name.)

Question: My name is Channing Kilgore. I'm a messenger of South Whitwood Baptist Church. Just want to ask Dr. Rainer, can you give me Biblical reasons why T.D. Jakes, who is basically the vice president of a religious group that denies the Trinity, and who uses the same language as this group that denies the Trinity to state his personal views of the Trinity, and why The Shack by William Young, which undermines key doctrines such as the Trinity, the sufficiency of the Bible, and the exclusivity of the gospel of Christ and compares the gospel story of the death, burial, resurrection of our Lord Jesus to a pagan Indian myth story and which two of our great seminary leaders, Dr. Albert Mohler of Southern Seminary and Dr. Paige Patterson of Southwestern Seminary, state that The Shack contains heresy, are sold at Lifeway stores? In short, please give Biblical reasons why T.D. Jakes and The Shack by William Young are sold at Lifeway stores.

Thom Rainer: Thank you, Channing. Good to hear from you... again. Uh... the... the issue about product standards is one that I knew very little about before I came to Lifeway. When I came to Lifeway one of the things I began to do is to ask how do we choose the products and the books that we sell in our Lifeway Christian Stores. And I must say that I was absolutely amazed at how thorough this process is. I was absolutely amazed at how Biblical foundations were used to go through every single potential book, unlike any publisher and unlike any Christian retailer.

I have full confidence in our process. I have full confidence in our leadership who does this. I know there's a wide variety of views across the Southern Baptist Convention about what Lifeway Christian stores should sell or shouldn't sell. As a matter of fact, if we took the advice of every Southern Baptist who spoke to us we would sell nothing. The reality of it is there are tough decisions to be made. There was one book that I really struggled with. It was a fiction book. And it was a book that... in my view... actually demonstrated purgatory... and... second chance salvation. I asked... why are we carrying this book, and people told me that this book, The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis, was one that Southern Baptists have asked to read. Frankly, that fiction book is still in our store.

You know what, folks? I trust Southern Baptists. I trust your discernment. And quite frankly, I don't think you want us telling you every single book that you can or cannot read. Thank you.

Question: Yes, my name is Trevor Love. I'm from Franconia Baptist Church. I'm a messenger in Alexandria, Virginia, and I was wondering if Dr. Rainer could uh... share with us what those criteria are for inclusion and exclusion of the resources at Lifeway Christian stores.

Thom Rainer: I would be happy to. I'm not going to be able to in this brief time. That is not evasive. I will simply say that you are free to contact our Lifeway Christian Store leadership. We have an entire screening process uh... that we go through. It is not the most simple thing in the world, and we'll be happy to provide it to you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

That should have been Channing Kilgore of South Whitwell Baptist Church. He was a bit mush-mouthed there.

Lydia said...

"Well, duh -- any store sells what its customers buy, because the customers buy what the store sells. The customers can't buy what the store doesn't sell -- at least not at the store that doesn't sell it.
"

But remember the big scandal a few years back about the Evangelical magazine that had 3 women pastors on the front? Lifeway refused to sell it. Then a big meeting was held and they decided to have it under the counter if someone asked for it. But most Lifeway stores did not even sell it then.

Seems they make decisions based on strange criteria. Jakes, the anti Trinitarian preacher, is ok to sell but a magazine featuring women pastors is a huge sin.

So much for Lifeway.

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New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, Lydia. I was going to mention that in a follow-up comment, but Blogger was messed up big time last night and posted my long comment 7 times! I finally gave up. It's still quirky today.

Yes, it's interesting that TPTB at Lifeway seem to have no problem with Jakes' heresy and some of the other junk on their shelves, but a magazine they regularly stock which happened to contain an article about {gasp!} female pastors one month was kept behind the counter like Playboy at the magazine stand.

Channing Kilgore asked the same question at the 2009 SBC, hence Rainer's less than enthusiastic "good to hear from you... again."

Junkster said...

New BBC,
Yeah, my "duh" was as wisenhimer remark, but it wasn't at what your comments; it was at Rainer's.

(Well, at what you summarized him as saying, anyway. But having since read his actual comments that you provided later, what he said was even worse. In the case of Lewis' book. "The Great Divorce", he does seem to be saying they sell it because customers want it. But he's also saying that all the books they sell they sell have been approved by a thorough process that vets the books as being biblically sound -- which is troubling. If the "leadership" that does the reviews thinks that Jakes' teachings are biblically sound, they seriously need to get more theologically astute people on their review board.)

You know I love ya! :)

-----
Tom

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thanks, junk. I misunderstood.

Just don't go gettin' all mushy on me. I might have to smack you.

;-)

Anonymous said...

Ummm, I checked both links where EC is supposedly speaking in August at Shadow Mountain (Pastor David Jeremiah's church) and the other conferences in Pigeon Forge, TN. EC is NOT listed at Shawdow Mountain and the Pigeon Forge conference still shows EC as the President and Dean of Liberty Theological Seminary.

NO news here. Seems like all that is written is NOT true.