"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, September 28, 2010

James White - Speaking the Truth on Ergun Caner

Below is yesterday's (9/27/10) video blog entry from James White's blog of Alpha and Omega ministries.

If you have followed the Caner debacle, you need to watch this video. It is a bit long, but what White says needs to be heard by evangelicals, especially those whose church Caner will be visiting to speak on his latest tour. White has some tough words to say, and unfortunately no one else is speaking these words in private to Caner thus White says them publicly.

I don't know James White, have never spoken to him, and he likely wants nothing to do with my blog. I never, ever heard of White until the Caner debacle began.

But thank you James White for speaking the truth. Too bad no one in the Southern Baptist convention or at Liberty is willing to do what you are doing. I guess they are all cowards, and don't want to pay the price for standing for the truth.

112 comments:

Thy Peace said...

God bless James White. I have only watched his blog posts as it relates to Caner situation and every time James White has spoken the truth. As a result he has paid the price of losing his teaching position at Golden Gate Seminary branch in Phoenix, Arizona.

Kenneth said...

I guess they are all cowards


WD, you don't like it when people call anonymous bloggers or letter writers cowards but you are quick to call Liberty, and anyone else who has a different opinion on you about Caner a coward.

You can't have it both ways. It's the same way when you talk about tithing. You don't think you should be judged by what you give to the church, yet you judge the church leaders because you don't know what the pastor's salary is and what he is doing with the money.

You get upset about what FBC Jax and Mac Brunson have done to you and your family, yet you are firing right back at him and then you have taken up the bandwagon against Ergun Caner while you are at it.

I just don't get it. For someone who has been done so wrong, it seems you should be the first one offering grace to Caner instead of constantly keeping the flames going.

Just remember there are two sides to every story and then there is the truth.

MJ said...

Tom,
Without defending Caner, there is only one observation that I will make. I also think this is probably the same issue that exists between you and Brunson.

I am not saying that this is right, I am just saying that this is . . .

And that's this. -

In Caners case, just the fact of "WHO" it is that is demanding confession, means there will not be one.

In Brunsons case, just the fact that you are the one who critiqued him, means there will be no concession.

Had Jerry Vines, or Johnny Hunt, approached him with these discrepancies, and declared their friendship with him in the process, I doubt very seriously that there would be any angst or refusal on his part to sit down and flesh it all out.

Had there been a group of deacons or men "friendly" toward Brunson approach him with the same concerns you have, most likely there would have been a "little debbie summit" to talk it all out.

Most likely the reason that most people aren't calling him out, is because they do not want to be on the same side as James White, or Wade Burleson, or you.

They like Ergun, and agree with him doctrinally. They don't like the other guys, because they don't agree with them doctrinally, and do not want to be seen in agreement with them.

I know personally for me, who it is that is demanding answers from me, goes a long way on whether or not I'll give it to them.

If you're clearly against me, you can accuse me of liking pizza, and I will not concede to you. I don't care how many photographs, and pizza hut receipts you produce, I will not admit or confess to your accusation.

If you're clearly my friend and for me, I am an open book and will concede, confess, and agree with whatever you find, as long as you're my friend.

I may be incorrect, but I do believe that at least some of that is going on with Caner, Liberty, and, Caners friends. I know how I am, and I don't think I'm the only one that way.

Anonymous said...

Don't forget EMIR CANER.

It seems he has his little hideaway in the Mountain of North GA running a Christian institution called Truett - McConnell College funded, regulated, and promoted by all those within the Baptist Mafia hiding behind the name... Georgia Baptist Convention.

And we all know who runs this bunch at the G B C.....

Everson, White, Harris, et al
Sound familar?

Where there is smoke, there is fire!

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Kenneth - I'm calling it like I see it, that we have a serial liar on the loose, who is still claiming that it was "edited videos" that tried to bring him down. And I would say that "cowardice" is one of the factors of him not being held accountable. I'm not saying one person in particular.

I don't think I've ever been judged about what I give. I don't like it when abusive pastors preach 10% as the rock hard border between obedience and disobedience.

I'm not sure about your grace comment and Caner. I have defended Caner in some posts hoping he would do the right thing and salvage his ministry. But he owes me and all of FBC Jax a public apology for using our pulpit to launch his SBC career as "Ergun Mehmet Mi-kael Giovanni Janel". I don't think he will ever apologize, and he will continue to call bloggers disgruntled people in basements.

I'm not keeping any fans flaming with Caner. He is doing that himself. He took his shots last Friday, and kept things going.

Thy Peace said...

Any Christian who follows The Truth is required to speaks the truth(s) in all spheres of life. When one does not do that repeatedly (even after correction), then what is the use of calling oneself a Christian?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

MJ - "little debbie summit". Huh?

I don't follow your logic at all.

I judge criticism based on it's truthfulness primarily, and am open to criticism from those who don't like me. If I only accept it from those who like me, I might not get any criticism that can help me be better. If I suspect someone's motives are to hurt me because they just don't like me personally I might discount it some, but will never totally disregard it. Anyone who has worked in the corporate world knows even anonymous feedback from customers or peers is valuable, perhaps the most valuable of all. Even our most hated enemies can still speak the truth about us.

And I like pizza whether you tell me I do, or Satan tells me. You both are right, and I won't deny it.

Lydia said...

I have never been a fan of White's either. And I have been aware of his ministry for at least 5 years. I ran across him when I was reading Challies.

But I did read the entire email exchange between him and Caner regarding the planned debate. That was several years ago and I knew from reading the exchange that Caner had a serious maturity problem. He had no intention of really "debating" White. it was all talk. And we have since seen, that is what Caner is...all talk. And most of it is fabrication.

Caner's exchange with White was so childish I was embarassed for him. I was amazed then he was the president of Liberty. It made me question their credibility then.Now, I know why even clearer.

Lydia said...

"I judge criticism based on it's truthfulness primarily, and am open to criticism from those who don't like me"

Exactly. Which is why I suspect those defending Caner are bringing up every single scenerio they can think of to get the focus off the clear and present lying.

What MJ described sounds more like school yard scenerio than it does mature believers.

Besides, Caner's peers will never say a word publicly. They have blurbed his books and paid him to speak on their stages. That guarantees silence and the hope this thing goes away quickly. MJ does not understand how the club works.

MJ said...

Tom,

My reference to a "little debbies summit" was a tongue in cheek reference to Obama's "beer summit."

My point was that had friendly deacons, and men who favored Brunson had approached him with the same concerns as yours, then most likely Brunson would have invited them over for "little debbies" and fleshed out the conflict. That was all that I was saying.

I fully realize that our enemies can speak truth to us. That fact doesn't change the "resistence" within someone to allow their enemies the satisfaction of a concession.

My obvservation here is just that Caner will readily admit, confess, and repent, to those he deems friendly to him.
He will never admit, confess and repent to those he deems unfriendly to him.

The same goes for Brunson.

I may be wrong, but that's one thing that I see.

WishIhadknown said...

My behavior whether good or bad has nothing to do with whether or not someone else must do what is right. Kenneth,what you are making is a tit for tat argument. Only if I am good enough or pay enough am I recognized as having the right to participate and I do not see that as scriptural.

Debbie Kaufman said...

MJ, Kenneth: The issue is integrity. Truthfulness. Honesty. All those things that a true born again Christian is. You are talking in worldly terms and I reject all of it as just as much gibberish as Ergun's speaking Turkish is gibberish. I reject this explanation both of you give as much as I rejected Ergun trying to tell me to take down my first post due to death threats. Threats that I believe are bogus on his part to further the illusion. Come on boys. Maturity dictates that when truth comes out Christians acknowledge that truth and comply with it. Christ is truth. We are truth by nature. You can excuse him all you want, but he is wrong, he is sinking deeper in sin, and if he is not a true born again Christian, which frankly I'm beginning to wonder, then he needs Christ. All your excuses are doing is paving the way to hell and to his dragging Christ's name through the mud. Neither are a favor to him and I am certainly not buying it. To act like the world is nothing to excuse or brag about. Go sell that to someone gullible. Not us. You are excusing sin gentlemen and for that you need to examine yourselves.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Here is more evidence of what I'm talking about.

People like Lumkins and Rogers not only seek to discredit White because he is a Calvinist, but because he is persistent in calling Caner to repent of his lies, they call him "obsessed".

Sad.

Anonymous said...

And too bad FBC Watchdog that you are that misinformed that you would listen to just one man who is so full of himself and fixated on himself that you believe in his mouth rather than the full counsel of many. Too bad. But, itching ears hear what they want to ---

Lydia said...

Off topic:

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27841

Interesting article on why and how Islam and the Constitution are incompatable.

Anonymous said...

WD,
No one owes you an apology. The very fact that you continually demand one and think you are entitled to one says a lot about your character.

Kenneth,
Well said.

Bennett Willis said...

I have no idea what arrangement LU has with EC, but would suspect that this latest comment by EC was not well received by all parties there.

peter said...

Dear WD,

Hello.

It's "LumPkins" not "Lumkins."

And, as for your little commentary about why I post on JW, I'd say you're wrong on both accounts. But I have no interest in pursuing it with you since your view, I suspect, is incorrigible.

With that, I am...
Peter

Debbie Kaufman said...

Ergun Caner just needs to apologize, or at least quit lying and blaming bloggers. To defend him as you two do says a lot about your character. And it's not good.

Listen to one man? You have got to be kidding. The evidence speaks for itself and James White is telling the truth. Give me a break fellas. Any thinking, rational person can see the truth.

Like I said, sell it to those who aren't thinking, don't want to look at the evidence, excuse those without integrity as long as they bring the crowds in and think that such a person is "anointed", which is so untrue and so opposite of who God is that it is blasphemy to even describe him in this way.

The Other Tom said...

"And too bad FBC Watchdog that you are that misinformed that you would listen to just one man who is so full of himself and fixated on himself that you believe in his mouth rather than the full counsel of many. Too bad. But, itching ears hear what they want to ---

September 28, 2010 6:19 PM"

And too bad that so-called "christians" like you and the others here have taken up the cause of a pathological liar whose every utterance of his filthy, stinking lying mouth is an attack upon the honor of God, the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the truth and integrity of the Word of God.

The lies of E. Michael Caner have been fully documented over, and over, and over again. Yet he he is still totally unrepentant and instead attacks those faithful and true disciples of Christ who are attempting to clense the church of the plague of Caner. By Biblical standards, I now regard him to be an apostate, a reprobate,and a blasphemer who is under the judgement of God. Caner is doing the work of his father, The Father of Lies, and will indeed share his fate.

As will all those "christians" who continue to defend him.

For me personally, I will have no Christian fellowship with any person who defends Caner, or any institution that harbors him or gives him support. They are doing the work of the devil, and shall bear the consequences of their sinful actions.

Anonymous said...

Hmm...

Like the full council of many that ignores the wealth of proprietary sources from Ergun Caner which contradict each other?

Yeah, Liberty has decided to protect Mike Warnke 2.0

Anonymous said...

The Peter Lumpkins link to a video is actually pathetic. Some lame juvenile attempt at disparaging any questioning of the object of their personality cult.

With that, I am not like Peter. The silly man who makes silly videos and not address any real facts.

So very sad.

Dr. Know said...

Peter Pumpkin has logged in to express dismay over the misspelling of his name, and then challenges Dog that he doesn't know why Peter Pumpkin creates childish, denigrating cartoons that mock James White. Then, Mr. Pumpkin writes:

"But I have no interest in pursuing it with you

What? "No interest"?

Right, Peter Pumpkin, we believe you, don't we folks? wink, wink.

With that, I am, and if you believe Peter Pumpkin doesn't really care about anything pertaining to him, click Dr. Know's name and hear your diagnosis.

Kenneth said...

WD...I looked at my post, it should've been " for someone who has been so WRONGED, not Wrong....

Obviously that makes a difference in the way that sentence reads. I don't know if that would change your response to me or not, but I just wanted to offer my apology for the typo.

Also, Debbie. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't need another Holy Spirit. Respectfully, please stop with the lectures. I'm not an apologist for Ergun Caner, I was just simply stating I thought there might be a little bit of a double standard going on and wanted to get WD's opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

MJ: In Caners case, just the fact of "WHO" it is that is demanding confession, means there will not be one.

Watchdog: I judge criticism based on it's truthfulness primarily, and am open to criticism from those who don't like me.

And that, Watchdog, is one of the big differences between your world and the world of Ergun Caner, Mac Brunson, and their buddies! I didn't read MJ's comment as critical of you. Rather, I think s/he was saying it's "who it is NOT" that is demanding accountability.

You see, in their world, you are a nobody. First you were anonymous, so you were a nobody. Then when they learned your identity, you were still a nobody to them. Your name isn't Johnny Hunt, Jerry Vines, Al Mohler, or Paige Patterson. Then when they learn you're not going to kiss their... rings... you become expendable. You're not a member of their club, and you're not one of their mind-numbed, wannabe followers. Therefore, they claim your opinion doesn't matter (although Mac and Ergun's words and actions contradict that, don't they?), and they're certainly never going to do anything which might be interpreted by their colleagues (or the sheeple) as kowtowing to the wishes of one so lowly and insignificant as you (or I). That would be seen in their world as weakness, and since they have images to uphold and pride that knows no bounds, they cannot risk ever being seen as weak. (Mac might shed a few crocodile tears occasionally, but that's just for dramatic effect.)

Why do you think Mac, Steve, Ergun, and their peers and supporters are so rabidly critical of bloggers? It's not because of who you are. It's because they can't control you, and it's making them crazy.

Blog on!

P.S. I thought a "little debbie summit" might be when Deb calls Mac in for a little "come to Jesus" meeting.

New BBC Open Forum said...

People like Lumkins and Rogers not only seek to discredit White because he is a Calvinist, but because he is persistent in calling Caner to repent of his lies, they call him "obsessed".

I don't follow Lumpkins, Rogers, or White's blogs, but it sounds to me as if the former two are at least as "obsessed" with White as White is allegedly "obsessed" with Caner.

Anonymous said...

Debbie,
You are the very definition of self righteousness. All you ever do is lecture people on your spiritual pedestal. Please stop. You are no more a Christian than the rest us. Quit acting like you have a special place in heaven that is above all of us. Have some humility.

Fredericka said...

Kenneth said, "Just remember there are two sides to every story and then there is the truth."

Kenneth, what really can be said in defense of Ergun Caner? This man claimed that he was raised abroad, trained in jihad at madrassas in Beirut and Cairo, but wasn't. His 'mis-statements' are not few and far between, but continual. He is a willful liar. I really don't understand what his defenders are thinking.

Lydia said...

http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/09/dearborn-four-found-not-guilty.html


Interesting blogpost by our old friend, the squirrel. (who was also contacted by Liberty investigators)

It is about the trial of the Dearborn 4 who were witnessing at the "Arab" Festival in Dearborn and were arrested. The Muslims there do not like free speech.

The blogpost is also contains concerns about how the police handled it. And what one Michigan representative that was involved. Scary stuff that pertains to our rapidly decreasing civil rights.

Anonymous said...

All is well in the Southern Babel Convention, my friends. All is undeniably well.

--Screwtape

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Dear Peter,

Hello.

You said: "...you're wrong on both accounts"

It is "both counts", not "accounts"

With that, I am...

Watchdog, "The Dog of God"

:)

A.M. Mallett said...

I am hoping that Mr. James White continues chasing his elusive nemesis if he feels it makes him the better man for it. It just makes him all that more irrelevant and an excellent object lesson in "carnal Christianity" for our Sunday School students.

Anonymous said...

"I am hoping that Mr. James White continues chasing his elusive nemesis if he feels it makes him the better man for it. It just makes him all that more irrelevant and an excellent object lesson in "carnal Christianity" for our Sunday School students."

Yesssssss, my precious. We all loves our object lessonssss.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Anonymous 9:59: It's just plain ole common sense. Lying is wrong. Ergun Caner has and is lying. Did I mention lying is wrong? The secular world thinks so, why don't some in the Christian world. The Bible is plain. Lying is sin.

Dr Ergun Caner said...

Don't worry Peter... it takes more than edited videos to bring ME down!

To be the man, you've got to BEAT the man!!!! Woooo!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySAFc0vK5Xs

BibleWheel said...

A. M. Mallett said: I am hoping that Mr. James White continues chasing his elusive nemesis if he feels it makes him the better man for it. It just makes him all that more irrelevant and an excellent object lesson in "carnal Christianity" for our Sunday School students.

Let's see ... Mallett says:

1) Unrepentant serial liars = true men of God

2) Folks calling for basic honesty and Biblical repentance = object lessons in "carnal Christianity."

Words have lost all meaning. Mallett and his fellow Canerites now declare black is white, good is evil, and true is false.

And this is coming straight from the heart of the Southern Baptist Convention, one of the most "fundamental" of American Christian church organizations?

And major Christian institutions like Liberty U knowingly employ unrepentant liars, and some of the most famous Christian apologists like Geisler and Ankerberg explicitly support the liars and the lies they tell?

I QUIT. I will never again call myself a "Christian" without the extreme qualification that I CATEGORICALLY REJECT the moral and intellectual abomination of the American Evangelical / Baptist / Fundamentalist pseudo-Christian Religion. I will do everything in my power to encourage folks to escape those corrupt institutions.

.

Douglas said...

James White is a honest, God fearing man, Ergun Caner isn't. Ergun Caner is an unrepentant blight upon Christianity, he is an embarrasement. He has an appointment with God and he is not ready. Woe is him.

Douglas said...

Peter Lumkins is a dangerous enemy of the Cross of Christ and of genuine Christians. Unless he repents of his evil sinful wickedness he shall perish. He gives me the shivers.

Anonymous said...

I am hoping that Mr. James White continues chasing his elusive nemesis if he feels it makes him the better man for it. It just makes him all that more irrelevant and an excellent object lesson in "carnal Christianity" for our Sunday School students.

September 28, 2010 10:27 PM

This is the level of spirituality in our churches and seminaries. This person thinks White is the sinner because he points out Erguns lies. Ergun's 9 year career of lying and profiting from that lying is excused. Ergun maintains he has been persecuted.

Too many of our so called "Christian Leaders" are horribly incompetent and are even calling evil good and good evil. It is amazing, it is right before our eyes yet many do not see it.

Why?

Because they follow man instead of Christ.

Anonymous said...

Lummmpkins doesn't care about the truth when it comes to Ergun Caner. He doesn't answer critical questions regarding Caner. Over a dozen times Caner claims to have come in 1978 and his website still says this, yet Peter doesn't regard that as lying. Or do you Peter?

MJ said...

Miss Kaufman,

First of all, I have never and will never excuse sin.

I did not defend Dr. Caner, nor did I disparage anyone else. I merely described my observation.

When I explained my observation. I gave no "editorial opinion" when I said what I see, I merely said what I see.

I was not speaking "Gibberish" nor giving my opinion. Therefore there is no need to accuse me of not understanding the greater issues.

Tom, I fully understand that you evaluate criticism primarily whether it's true or not.

Not everyone is that way. There is a "relationship dynamic" that affects how some people respond/react to criticism. I am not giving an opinion when I say this, merely making an observation.

I will say it again. If you were friends with Brunson, your grievances would have received a supper invitation to sit down and flesh it out. Because you are not, and because you "appeared to be" against him from the beginning, you are dismissed as not being legitimate or credible.

If you were friends with Dr. Caner and had approached him with these discrepancies, no doubt you would have been invited to Steak and Shake to flesh it out.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there is a "relationship dynamic" in the middle of all of this that affects how each side deals with the other, (regardless of who is right.)

The Other Tom said...

Has it been mentioned on this thread yet that good, old Mac Brunson just happened to be the pastor of E. Michael Caner in the beginning stages of his transformation into Ergun Caner? It happened right before his nose, yet he did NOTHING to stop it and supports him to this day, as evidenced by his name appearning on Norm Geisler's website. Next to Caner himself, and Brother Emir, I hold Brunson to be the most guilty party in this situation. He could have nipped it in the bud, but instead gave his full knowledge and consent to Caner's campaign of lies.

Ben said...

"The issue is integrity. Truthfulness. Honesty.'

Do you think there is integrity in speaking about someone in a manner which does not build the kingdom, rather than speak to that someone?

Do you think truthfulness is designed to be demanded from an individual to an audience which will not do everything possible to speak directly to the person they demand truthfulness from?

Do you think you are being honest with scripture when you talk about someone rather than talk to someone?

We live in a new era where cyber space gives us freedoms I don't think God approves of. What do you think any blog being critical of a brother or sister in Christ is doing for the person you are critical of or to a world who needs to know Jesus. I do not think wrong should be swept under the rug but I do think God's word supports talking to our family rather than about them.

Discord is being sown as a result. Proverbs speaks to this.

Ben said...

Kenneth,

You will not be appreciated here by most. To not agree with them is to support their enemy.

Keep up the good work. Your comments are well written but not understood by some.

The owner of this blog will also post your words, knowing it will bring conflict.

The Other Tom said...

If there is discord in the church, then the blame lies SOLELY with Caner and his defenders. Those who put in a great deal of work and effort to expose Caner for the lying, despicable scoundral that he is are acting in full accordance with the Word of God, and true Christians everywhere should praise God for them.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Kenneth - I appreciate you. You can post here, this is what the blog is here for even if I don't agree with you.

Ben says I would post your words because they "cause conflict".

I call it healthy debate and discussion. People who don't like their faith challenged call it "conflict" and "sin".

Anonymous said...

"Debbie,
You are the very definition of self righteousness. All you ever do is lecture people on your spiritual pedestal. Please stop. You are no more a Christian than the rest us. Quit acting like you have a special place in heaven that is above all of us. Have some humility."

If this is the fine lady who is or was a member of Wade Burlesons church she is more spiritual than the rest of us... Did you not know that?
;-)

Ben said...

"Those who put in a great deal of work and effort to expose Caner for the lying, despicable scoundral that he is are acting in full accordance with the Word of God, and true Christians everywhere should praise God for them.

September 29, 2010 10:48 AM"

Interesting claim, can you back it up scripturally since you say your actions are biblical?

The Other Tom said...

1 Corinthians 5
Romans 16:17-18
Titus 3:10
I Timothy 3:7
Acts 5:1-11

Want more?

Anonymous said...

"Do you think there is integrity in speaking about someone in a manner which does not build the kingdom, rather than speak to that someone?"

That is like asking you how long you have been sober. The entire premise of your question is wrong because you do not understand what "build the kingdom" means. What good is a "kingdom" that has liars as leaders? It is not a spiritual kingdom at all. So what is the point of such a "kingdom"? It exists for the benefit of man. Not Christ.

Are you suggesting we pretend like those who claim Christ can be liars and we are to pretend like they aren't? The world sees through that right away.

So, you are not building THE spiritual kingdom. You are building "A" kingdom...that is man centered and worldly. Caner is quite comfortabe in that sort of "worldly kingdom".

Duke

Anonymous said...

Interesting claim, can you back it up scripturally since you say your actions are biblical?

September 29, 2010 11:36 AM

Read Revelations 21.

There are other places the NT Word that proclaims liars will not enter the Kingdom. I can find them for you if you like.

You also might try James where it talks about teachers of the Word...

of course, you would first have to admit that Caner is a long time liar. There is plenty of proof you chose to ignore.

You seem to think there is a get out of hell card for those who lie consistently while also pretending to be a preacher of the Gospel.

Try reading Hebrews 10: 26-31 to better understand your problem.

Debbie Kaufman said...

I am praying I am more spiritual. If you think it's spiritual to defend Ergun Caner, well then yes, I am more spiritual. That is a compliment to God the Father who is sanctifying me. It's certainly not an insult. Especially considering the alternative. So thank you. :)I hope and pray I am more spiritual.

Fredericka said...

Ben said, "Interesting claim, can you back it up scripturally since you say your actions are biblical?"

Ben, please consult the Bible verses down at the bottom of my web-page about
Ergun Caner.

Lying is a serious, serious offense against God. Ergun has not said anything to suggest repentance, rather he has come out swinging against the 'frustrated' bloggers in their 'basements.' It is easy to see why the bloggers get 'frustrated.' Why is it always necessary to go back to Square One on this?

Ben said...

"That is like asking you how long you have been sober. The entire premise of your question is wrong because you do not understand what "build the kingdom" means. What good is a "kingdom" that has liars as leaders? It is not a spiritual kingdom at all. So what is the point of such a "kingdom"? It exists for the benefit of man. Not Christ."

I see you avoided the question and turned it to say what you wanted. The question was not about liars in the kingdom but about speaking about someone rather than to them.

I think you know that but have a need to switch the subject. There is no integrity in that either.

Now would you like to show me where the integrity is in speaking about someone rather than speaking to that someone? How does such an action build the kingdom.

"So, you are not building THE spiritual kingdom. You are building "A" kingdom...that is man centered and worldly. Caner is quite comfortabe in that sort of "worldly kingdom". '

Nothing I said defended or bashed Caner. I know you want to make it about that but there is and of integrity I prefer.

If I have something to say, I will say it you. I am not going elsewhere and speaking about you, Duke. I refuse to be that dishonest toward God's word.

Ben said...

Anon, I am not asking that you back up the idea that God hates liars. I am asking you to back up the claim that God's word supports your drive to expose others.

You did say...


"Those who put in a great deal of work and effort to expose Caner for the lying, despicable scoundral that he is are acting in full accordance with the Word of God, and true Christians everywhere should praise God for them."

While you are at it, please show me in scripture where it gives any of God's people a right to call other people names like:

"lying, despicable scoundral that he is"

Waiting!

Ben said...

"You seem to think there is a get out of hell card for those who lie consistently while also pretending to be a preacher of the Gospel.

Try reading Hebrews 10: 26-31 to better understand your problem."

You seem to think that the only thing that can be in discussion is whatever Caner said. The words you and I and anyone else on this and other blogs are up for discussion also. Your words are being called into question.

I have not defended or bashed Caner. This is something you can't seem to recognize when someone disagrees with you. That really calls into question your ability to speak straight concerning anything. You come across as one blinded by your hatred or disdain for Caner. He is not the only thing on the table to be discussed. Your words are also.

Ben said...

"Lying is a serious, serious offense against God. Ergun has not said anything to suggest repentance, rather he has come out swinging against the 'frustrated' bloggers in their 'basements.' It is easy to see why the bloggers get 'frustrated.' Why is it always necessary to go back to Square One on this?"

Fredricka,

I have not defended or bashed Caner. That is what I am asking for scriptural support to do. any clear thinking person can make a case against lying but I want to know where bashing someone else in a public forum is biblical. Your wen page does not deal with that.

Care to try.

Let's try square one for those who are bashing someone who is not a part of the conversation other than being talked about. Where does scripture support this?

Anonymous said...

My obvservation here is just that Caner will readily admit, confess, and repent, to those he deems friendly to him.
He will never admit, confess and repent to those he deems unfriendly to him.

The same goes for Brunson.

I may be wrong, but that's one thing that I see.

September 28, 2010 4:00 PM
___________________________________

MJ - I agree with your observation. However, that shows arrogance and stubbornness on their part. So it invites blogging and critics. Perhaps they should try, oh I don't know, kindness, humility, and grace to their critics.

I agree. Those big shots will never be held accountable by anyone but their "friends." And their friends will never ever attempt to hold them accountable. So the need for bloggers like Tom is greater now than ever. We need more watchdogs in the churches.

Anonymous said...

Have you seen the latest Lumpkins obsession with defending Ergun Caner? Is Lumpkins such a Canerite that he can't even say Caner lied dozens of times about when he came to America? He can rip on others but over look Caner's many lies....

Peter, Peter, will you not at least answer the question on when Caner came to America? We know you read these Peter....

Comfort said...

You really have to wonder about people who claim to have the Risen King in their lives, and yet, support a man who lies REPEATEDLY.

Anyone taken a good look at Titus, Chapter 2 which speaks to us about being trained in SAVING GRACE?

Let’s review:

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to RENOUNCE ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to PURIFY for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
15Declare these things; EXHORT and REBUKE with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (emphasis mine)

Did I miss the part where we are to support the ungodly among us? Paul instructed us to not even share a meal with Christians who live in a constant state of sin and who remain unrepentant.

I’ve no doubt that Debbie and/or Tom, have read this scripture countless times, and to follow it doesn’t make them self-righteous. To the contrary, it makes them partakers of the Grace of God.

Just how Godly can a man who makes mocking videos about James White really be? Especially, when he REFUSES to evaluate the evidence? What kind of discernment is going on here?

This is a very simple issue. It’s not a deep theological question that learned men disagree over. It’s about lying. Even unbelievers know lying is wrong.

How can a man who claims Jesus Christ as his personal Savior use such words as ‘Sand N*****s', or ‘mangina’ when referring to other people? Seriously, if I had been in that audience when Caner used the word ‘mangina’, as an active duty woman, I’d have stood up and rebuked him on the spot. It’s deplorable on every level. The FACT that Caner can’t see that, is all the evidence I need, to conclude that the man is completely carnal. I guess people like Peter Lumpkins finds those words perfectly acceptable, but then has the nerve to go after White who has never uttered such a word in public, and surely not while teaching the scriptures.

People who identify themselves as followers of Christ, simply do not encourage or excuse blatant sin. If they do, they need to do a serious bit of self-reflection on the state of their own relationship with Christ.

katybola said...

Peter Lumpkins' response to Dr. White's recent video discussing Ergun Caner's continued rebellion is shameful.

Here is Peter's response: http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2010/09/james-whites-obsession-with-ergun-caner-by-peter-lumpkins.html

I submitted a comment to Peter regarding his response....however, he declined to post it. He made a disclosure of why...and I guess he lumped me in with the "crazies".

Here was my comment to Peter and his "funny" blog response & video.

"Peter....u aren't funny. And the continued rebellion by Ergun Caner under the guidance of the Christian 'leaders' you mention isn't funny. Further, Christian "leaders" that embrace the PR tactics of the world to exploit the 'sheepish' nature of their flocks to avoid accountability and repentance is not funny.

Your only argument in defense of Caner is "Dr. James White shouldn't care."

And to quote a wise man..... “One day, this will be a matter of great embarrassment to you.”

I pray you will stop laughing and commit this situation to prayer so that your words might be used to glorify God."

Anonymous said...

WD,
No one owes you an apology. The very fact that you continually demand one and think you are entitled to one says a lot about your character.

September 28, 2010 6:28 PM
___________________________________

The Federal judge hearing the lawsuit against the Jacksonville Sheriff's office, Detective Robert A. Hinson and asst state attorney Siegel may disagree with you, anon. You may be surprised then when Tom and Yvette receive apologies from all three for their violating federally protected civil rights in their zeal to be lapdogs for the church leaders who didn't like his critical blog postings and did whatever they had to do to try and "shut em down."

Stay tuned. Either these guys will ALL apologize, or a jury will make them pay dearly for violating the Constitutional rights of the citizens they were sworn to protect.

The fact that you can't see that because you disagree with the content of Tom's blogs, shows your ignorance, or your lack of character.

GG

Anonymous said...

With that, I am...
Peter

September 28, 2010 6:58 PM
___________________________________

With that, I am...

ARROGANT.

What the H-E-C-K does "I am Peter" mean anyway. Just signing "Peter" will accomplish the same thing won't it? What is the point of the "I am..." in front of your name? Please explain Lumcans. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Discord is being sown as a result. Proverbs speaks to this.

September 29, 2010 10:40 AM
___________________________________

The discord is being sown by abusive pastors. The blogs are just covering the discord these guys cause. And yes, Proverbs warns these guys.

Anonymous said...

Pastors and Caner/Brunson supporters: How much of Jesus' time, energy and words were directed at the spiritual leaders of his day and how many were directed to folks that were criticizing those leaders?

Yeah. Jesus spent a lot of time addressing the corruption of the leaders. If these days are not going to be cut short, even the elect would be deceived. Come quickly Lord Jesus.

Fredericka said...

Ben said, "I have not defended or bashed Caner. That is what I am asking for scriptural support to do."

Ben, I am glad to hear you've declared neutrality. I think we are all implicated in this and have to try to do what we can to make it right, because, "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" (1 Corinthians 5:6).

As an aside, I wonder whether you think Ergun has scriptural support for bashing "mutant grand-daughters," and if so, what might it be?

Anonymous said...

I have not defended or bashed Caner. This is something you can't seem to recognize when someone disagrees with you. That really calls into question your ability to speak straight concerning anything. You come across as one blinded by your hatred or disdain for Caner. He is not the only thing on the table to be discussed. Your words are also.

September 29, 2010 2:12 PM

So, pointing out Caner's consistent lying and lack of repentance is hatred and sin?

The fact that you think discussing his willful and consistent sin as a "professional paid Christian" is "bashing" says a lot about you and what you believe is truth.

this is exactly why blogs are so great. We get to see the shallowness of the pew sitters and pastors out there. I say that with great sadness and hope for the true Body of Christ. Because Jesus Christ WILL present a pure Bride to Himself. Not a perfect one but a PURE one.

Douglas said...

"I have not defended or bashed Caner."

Ah ha! The old "bashed Caner" trick to suppress those who dare speak out about Ergun Caner's sinful, wicked, unrepentant lying and all the other evil, deceptive things he boldly and arrogantly says and does openly and publically. Don't dare criticize one of God's anointed, eh, even when he is terribly wrong and misleading the masses? Pass me another opiate please, I need to be controlled and my senses dulled.

Ergun Caner is a conman, if not something worse. I do not trust him, his followers and any of his defenders at all. They bring the cause of my LORD Jesus Christ, I AM, into disrepute and they will appear before the LORD in fear and trembling, naked and ashamed for all to see if they do not repent before they die. Does not matter how much theological knowledge they may have or how much of the Bible they know and have memorized, that will only make it worse for them on the day of judgment. Ergun Caner is not only an openly unrepentant liar, he is also an openly unrepentant, boastful, prideful sinner. Christians are NOT consistent unrepentant liars or unrepentant sinners. Has God hardened Ergun Caner's heart? What an awful state to be in that would be! And not even know it. Frightening.

To sin and not to blush!

(Thomas Brooks, "Heaven on Earth" 1667)

Only those things which are sinful, are shameful.

"Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 16:63

When the penitent soul sees his sins pardoned, the anger of God pacified, and divine justice satisfied, then he sits down ashamed.

Sin and shame are inseparable companions.

A Christian cannot have the seeming sweet of sin, but he shall have the real shame which accompanies sin. These two God has joined together, and all the world cannot put them asunder.

It was the vile and impenitent Caligula who said of himself, "that he loved nothing better in himself, than that he could not be ashamed."

A soul who has sinned away all shame, is a soul ripe for hell (lake of fire)--and given up to Satan! A greater plague cannot befall a man in this life, than to sin and not to blush!

Douglas said...

"Because Jesus Christ WILL present a pure Bride to Himself. Not a perfect one but a PURE one."

I think the Bride of Christ that is presented to Him will not only be pure but also perfect on that great and wonderful day, without spot or blemish or the taint of sin. Clothed in the robe of the LORD Jesus Christ's righteousness. His blood shed for the covering and washing away of our sins who believe.

Matthew 5:48Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James 1:2Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Anonymous said...

Debbie, you are the epitome of the definition of a Pharisee. I can see you now standing in church thanking God that you are not like those sorry publicans.

The Other Tom said...

Anon, I am not asking that you back up the idea that God hates liars. I am asking you to back up the claim that God's word supports your drive to expose others.

You did say...


"Those who put in a great deal of work and effort to expose Caner for the lying, despicable scoundral that he is are acting in full accordance with the Word of God, and true Christians everywhere should praise God for them."

While you are at it, please show me in scripture where it gives any of God's people a right to call other people names like:

"lying, despicable scoundral that he is"

Waiting!
=====================

First of all, Benji-Boy, it was NOT “Anon” who made the posting you referred to. I clearly identified myself as “The Other Tom.”

Second, to say that those Scriptures I cited ONLY have to deal with the “idea that God hates liars” is itself a lie. Those passages say MUCH more than that. It is obvious that you either (a) didn’t bother to read them; or (b) willingly choose to ignore the clear teachings of Scripture. In either case, you did nothing but display utter contempt for the Word of God. Such was done to justify the worthless drivel you are posting here to derail the topic off Caner, his lies, and the inexcusable attempts of so-called “christians” to claim that his behavior is acceptable.

As for you whining that I called him a “lying, despicable scoundrel,” I really don’t care if you like it or not. But I will also defend calling him such by Scripture. At the very least, it is a completely truthful statement, and Christians are duty-bound to speak the truth. But there is ample Scriptural precedent to “call other people names.”. In Matthew 23, Jesus called the Pharisees; “hypocrites” (multiple times), “blind guides,” “fools and blind,” “whitewashed tombs,” full of hypocrisy and lawlessness,” and “serpents, brood of vipers.”

In John 8:44, Christ told the Jews that “you are of your father, the devil.”

And I haven’t even begun to go into the Old Testament to get appropriate verses.

One of my favorite Scripture passages in dealing with dealing with the Canerite Sect is Titus 1:15-16; “To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess that they know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

The Other Tom said...

Anon, I am not asking that you back up the idea that God hates liars. I am asking you to back up the claim that God's word supports your drive to expose others.

You did say...


"Those who put in a great deal of work and effort to expose Caner for the lying, despicable scoundral that he is are acting in full accordance with the Word of God, and true Christians everywhere should praise God for them."

While you are at it, please show me in scripture where it gives any of God's people a right to call other people names like:

"lying, despicable scoundral that he is"

Waiting!
=====================

First of all, Benji-Boy, it was NOT “Anon” who made the posting you referred to. I clearly identified myself as “The Other Tom.”

Second, to say that those Scriptures I cited ONLY have to deal with the “idea that God hates liars” is itself a lie. Those passages say MUCH more than that. It is obvious that you either (a) didn’t bother to read them; or (b) willingly choose to ignore the clear teachings of Scripture. In either case, you did nothing but display utter contempt for the Word of God. Such was done to justify the worthless drivel you are posting here to derail the topic off Caner, his lies, and the inexcusable attempts of so-called “christians” to claim that his behavior is acceptable.

As for you whining that I called him a “lying, despicable scoundrel,” I really don’t care if you like it or not. But I will also defend calling him such by Scripture. At the very least, it is a completely truthful statement, and Christians are duty-bound to speak the truth. But there is ample Scriptural precedent to “call other people names.”. In Matthew 23, Jesus called the Pharisees; “hypocrites” (multiple times), “blind guides,” “fools and blind,” “whitewashed tombs,” full of hypocrisy and lawlessness,” and “serpents, brood of vipers.”

In John 8:44, Christ told the Jews that “you are of your father, the devil.”

And I haven’t even begun to go into the Old Testament to get appropriate verses.

One of my favorite Scripture passages in dealing with dealing with the Canerite Sect is Titus 1:15-16; “To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess that they know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

A.M. Mallett said...

Bible Wheel stated:
I QUIT. I will never again call myself a "Christian" without the extreme qualification that I CATEGORICALLY REJECT the moral and intellectual abomination of the American Evangelical / Baptist / Fundamentalist pseudo-Christian Religion. I will do everything in my power to encourage folks to escape those corrupt institutions.


I reply:
Please allow me to hold the door open for you on the way out.

BibleWheel said...

Ben said: While you are at it, please show me in scripture where it gives any of God's people a right to call other people names like:

"lying, despicable scoundrel that he is"


Scripture commands that we speak truth. Therefore, we are obeying Scripture when we declare that Ergun Caner is a lying, despicable scoundrel.

And just so there is no confusion, nobody in their right mind would ever mistake Ergun Caner for a "brother in Christ." If there is anything that can be known with certainty about this self-absorbed conman, it is the fact that he has denied Christ by his continuing decade of willful, godless deception from the PULPIT. The fact that he makes his money by screaming "Jah-EEZUS is LARD" is no more evidence of a true conversion than the fact that he fills those those same money-making sermons with LIES about being trained for Jihad in Beirut as a teenager.

Ergun Caner has made a lot of $$$ MONEY $$$ by lying about his his fake conversion to Christ. Indeed, one of his most outrageous examples of his FAKE ARABIC (or Turkish, or whatever) GIBBERISH is from his "testimony" about the words he supposedly spoke to his father the night he was supposedly saved by Jesus Christ.

Ergun Caner claims Christ for the same reason thousands of other conman claim Christ. It is an extremely effective way to fleece the sheep.
.

BibleWheel said...

A. M. Mallett said:

I reply:
Please allow me to hold the door open for you on the way out.

====================

A.M.A.Z.I.N.G.

People disgusted by STENCH of the blatantly corrupt church are leaving by the thousands, and the Canerites want to help by holding the door open????

You might want to rethink your strategy Mr. Mallett - unless of course you are a "double agent" secretly seeking to hasten the demise of American Evangelicalism.

Anonymous said...

"Ergun Caner is a conman, if not something worse. I do not trust him, his followers and any of his defenders at all. They bring the cause of my LORD Jesus Christ, I AM, into disrepute and they will appear before the LORD in fear and trembling, naked and ashamed for all to see if they do not repent before they die. Does not matter how much theological knowledge they may have or how much of the Bible they know and have memorized, that will only make it worse for them on the day of judgment. Ergun Caner is not only an openly unrepentant liar, he is also an openly unrepentant, boastful, prideful sinner. Christians are NOT consistent unrepentant liars or unrepentant sinners. Has God hardened Ergun Caner's heart? What an awful state to be in that would be! And not even know it. Frightening."

Douglas has spoken pure truth here. The most important thing in this whole debate is that Caner not fool anymore people.

A.M. Mallett said...

Bible Wheel stated:
Ergun Caner has made a lot of $$$ MONEY $$$ by lying about his his fake conversion to Christ.


I reply:
How much money has Ergun made?

Anonymous said...

Bible Wheel stated:
Ergun Caner has made a lot of $$$ MONEY $$$ by lying about his his fake conversion to Christ.

I reply:
How much money has Ergun made?

September 29, 2010 11:04 PM

Are you saying he wrote the books and traveled all over speaking for free? No royalties or honorariumss? On top of his Liberty salary. Also was he paid to teach the classes at Veritas?

Don't even try with the money amount silliness. CAner profited from his lies. PERIOD. It made him a very popular speaker in evangelical circles. I personally saw how much the average evangelical celebrity speaker was paid in mega circles. It could be as much as 5,000 grand for 2 hours and that did not include travel and expenses. The really big names would get twice that much.

You have no idea how much the speakin circuit is a gravy train for these guys.

BibleWheel said...

A. M. Mallett said:

I reply:
How much money has Ergun made?

====================

LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of $$$ MONEY $$$. All the money he has made using his faux ex-Jihadist persona is corrupt money he stole from Christians and others who believed him. This includes his salary as Professor and then President, as well as whatever money he gets from his hundreds of speaking engagements in which he LIES LIES LIES and did I say LIES to his audience to fleece them of their money. And he says he has written 17 books and I know that the abomination "Unveiling Islam" - which states the outrageous LIE that it is an "insider's view" of Islam - sold over a hundred thousand copies so I'm fairly confident he made a bit of coin there too.

Why did you ask this question? Surely you knew the answer. I wouldn't think you would want his crimes repeated yet again on the internet ... unless you are a "double agent" secretly seeking to hasten the demise of American Evangelicalism.

A.M. Mallett said...

Bible Wheel .... how much is lots and lots? Is it more than Mr White makes with all his cavorting around the country? Seriously, you seem to be in the know so by all means give me a crumb to run with here.

A.M. Mallett said...

The more important thing here is that White sit himself back down and move onto more things appropriate for whatever he calls his ministry. He just keeps looking more and more the failed, vindictive crusader with every youtubie waste of pixel space. Not that it matters. We have already taught our folks to keep their young children and pets away from his teachings.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

More of the same. I don't know who this A.M. Mallet is, but obviously just another guy who is hell bent on attacking James White because he dares to speak truth to Caner.

Keep talking Mallet.

BibleWheel said...

A.M. Mallett said:

Bible Wheel .... how much is lots and lots? Is it more than Mr White makes with all his cavorting around the country? Seriously, you seem to be in the know so by all means give me a crumb to run with here.

Hi Mr. Mallett,

What are you talking about? What does Mr. White have to do with anything? Oh ... I remember now. Mr. White travels all around the country and even the world because he is a real debater interacting with real apologists from other religions. For example, he twice debated Shabbir Ally - and that is why Ergun is now exposed as a ludicrous liar since he claimed to have debated Shabir Ally in Nebraska and the evil Mr. White had the audacity to ask "when" and the innocent little Caner said "oops ... never" and so the evil Mr. White asked "Well who then did you debate in Nebraska?" and the normally braggadocious Caner went suddenly silent .... and then said something nuts like YOU CAN'T SHUT THEM UP, BUT YOU CAN SHUT THEM OUT and then went silent again for three months.

And uh .. what was the question again?

Really dude, you need to get a grip. You seem quite devoted to rehashing all the outrageously absurd LIES that canned Caner in the first place. What's up with that? Are you sure which side you are on?

BibleWheel said...

A.M. Mallett said...

The more important thing here is that White sit himself back down and move onto more things appropriate for whatever he calls his ministry. He just keeps looking more and more the failed, vindictive crusader with every youtubie waste of pixel space. Not that it matters. We have already taught our folks to keep their young children and pets away from his teachings.

Wow ... that's scary. You are brainwashing your children to hate anyone who speaks truth against corrupt leaders? Do you not know that there are child molesters posing as pastors???? What if your child encounters one of them, and they obey your teaching never to speak truth about what the perverted leaders do to them???

Your every comment seems designed to destroy the church. Why can't you understand that your attack upon the truth-speakers and support for the wicked will lead inexorably to the destruction of both your church and your loved ones?

What has happened to you Mr. Mallett? How can you continue your suicidal jihad against the Truth?
.

Anonymous said...

"Wow ... that's scary. You are brainwashing your children to hate anyone who speaks truth against corrupt leaders? Do you not know that there are child molesters posing as pastors???? What if your child encounters one of them, and they obey your teaching never to speak truth about what the perverted leaders do to them???"

Mallet is so blinded by following man that I doubt he would believe his own child if it were a leader he admired.

Caner is Bill Clinton all over again. Except Caner is supposed to be a paid professional Christian.

BibleWheel said...

Caner is a "paid professional Christian"

BINGO!

Anonymous said...

The more important thing here is that White sit himself back down and move onto more things appropriate for whatever he calls his ministry. He just keeps looking more and more the failed, vindictive crusader with every youtubie waste of pixel space. Not that it matters. We have already taught our folks to keep their young children and pets away from his teachings.

September 29, 2010 11:50 PM

Gee, White must be more effective than some dared admit. They sure are scared of him.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - my thoughts exactly!

And maybe James White uses the same logic that other preachers do.

A popular expression that the mega church pastors use is:

"One way I know that I'm in the will of God is I am being attacked."

By "attack" they usually mean "criticized"...but I think it is safe to call what White has endured as being "attacked". But is something I've never witnessed before in my 20+ years as a believer, preachers attacking other preachers. White is not a fornicator, he is not a serial liar, he is not using tithes and offerings to make himself wealthy, he is not misusing scripture to get people to send him 10% of their income...none of that...he just dared to call Caner to repentence. And for that, other preachers, SBC preachers, are openly and maliciously attacking him.

It is something that should send chills down the spine of every Christian, especially those in the SBC...that our "men of God" are doing this. Our SBC leaders are either openly attacking James White and the "bloggers", or they are silent in regards to Caner. They claim to know the Bible, even claim to believe every "jot and tittle"...but they not only don't love their "enemies" (and White is no enemy at all), but they openly attack and make fun of their enemies and excuse sin in one of our leaders.

Unbelievable.

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile...why we discuss Caner, Mac Brunson once again asks for a million dollars, in two weeks, to pay for the renovations to the auditorium.

The Watchdog needs to keep watching Mac, not so much Caner. Yeah I know, Mac used a false personna as a "krispy kreme eatin, pick-up driving country boy" and he helped Ergun during the time he made this transformation from Ohio boy to trained terrorist, and Mac co-authored books with Caner, but other than exposing Mac and his like, I can't wait until your blog gets back to its true purpose...exposing Mac Brunson and his family as abusers of the generous and loving flock of the FBC of Jacksonville to build his own wealth and hire friends and family and demand money month after month, year after year. Insatiable appetite for more money.

The Other Tom said...

People such as Mallett, Peter the Lump, and Craig the Internet Tough Guy whine on and on about how big, bad, evil James White is "obsessed" with Caner. But if one follows their antics, it can be celarly seen that those Three Stooges are more "obsessed with James White than he ever was with Caner.

Anonymous said...

God forbid a pastor ask the parishoners to participate and sacrifice for Kingdom work. How dare Dr. Brunson!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Define "Kingdom work," please.

Anonymous said...

God forbid a pastor ask the parishoners to participate and sacrifice for Kingdom work. How dare Dr. Brunson!

September 30, 2010 11:38 AM

As the paid professional Christian, perhaps the very well paid Brunson should MODEL some sacrifice first. After all, that is the leaders responsibility.

Lydia said...

Define "Kingdom work," please.

September 30, 2010 2:38 PM

Building huge buildings. Going on "Christian cruises" down the Danube?

Anonymous said...

"As the paid professional Christian, perhaps the very well paid Brunson should MODEL some sacrifice first. After all, that is the leaders responsibility."


Do you know first hand knowledge that Dr. Brunson does not sacrifice, or are you getting your info. from filth like this blog?

"Building huge buildings. Going on "Christian cruises" down the Danube?"

It takes huge buildings to house huge congregations. Not rocket sceince. As far as the cruise, it is not uncommon for people to not want pastors to enjoy a vacation. I know you would prefer he rent a room at the motel 6 near the okefenokee and cook weiners in his room. Quit hating and start loving. It will change your life.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - large buildings = large congregations, I agree.

But "new pews, carpet, wall coverings" does not equal "kindgom work".

And the Danube Cruises - it is not that a pastor should not go on vacation. It is about using church resources to advertise for a tour that I'll go out on a limb and say is not "kingdom work". It is not wise to be ripping out the pews and putting brand new pews in during an economic downturn, then demanding a million dollars to pay for them, while accusing the congregation of being "fearful", at the same time the church website is encouraging well-to-do members to spend thousands on a cruise to the Holy Land.

Not good leadership.

Is he sacrificing? I don't know. If he is making special sacrifices when the church is several million behind budget, like taking a cut in salary, or cutting staff positions - then he should tell that to the congregation as an example of leading the way in cutting costs.

Anonymous said...

WD Why are you so bent on tearing this man apart? Do you have a personal vendetta against him? Is it because he is not Jerry Vines? Does he preach the Gospel?

Is it helping the Kingdom by ripping MB or EC to shreads, or does it just make you feel better? You may not believe it, but I am sincere when I say that I am concerened about you. Bitterness will eat away at a person until they become of no use to anyone.

Is this activity growing you in Christ? I do not know MB or EC but I do know JC. It is He whom I serve and noone else. Is this all really over a cruise and padded pews? Please tell me it is not. Please tell me that you are not that petty.

Why don't you start a blog that asks for prayer for our spiritual leaders. I know they need it, as do you and I. They are human, subject to human emotions, desires, weaknesses, and failures. We need to pray a hedge around them. As one songwriter put it, "A Wall of Prayer".

BibleWheel said...

Anon 11:37 PM asked "Does he preach the Gospel?"

===========================

Oh yes! Oh yes indeed. Here is an example of Ergun Caner preaching the "Gospel" (source)

"And after I got saved by Jah-EEZUS, I went home to my Turkish father and said YABA GABA GOO GOO DADA!! BING BANG BOONG BONG! BLAG BLOG BOOBOO BEEBAH!!!

Yes indeed, if that's not "preaching the Gospel" I don't know what is!

Anonymous said...

Is this all really over a cruise and padded pews? Please tell me it is not. Please tell me that you are not that petty.
___________________________________

Are you a first tiime reader? This blog is about asking for transparency and accountability from church leaders who constantly ask for millions and use the money to hire their own family members, take cruises, build their own brand, and abuse the sheep from the pulpit.

If only it were about cruises and padded pews.

Now, about the lawsuits against the church and the city and the JSO and Hinson...those are not about padded pews or cruises either. Are you a family member or is your head in the sand, or are you for real just a first time reader of this blog? Sheesh!

Anonymous said...

"Why don't you start a blog that asks for prayer for our spiritual leaders."

Jesus Christ alone is your spiritual leader. If you had the indwelling Holy Spirit, you would know that and be able to discern that Mac is a charlatan.

We should definitely ask that they be saved and stop using Jesus as a way to promote themselves.

They crept in unnoticed and were long ago marked out for condemnation. If you know the Word, you will know what that means and where it is. It is so obvious, it blows my mind that more cannot see it all around us with Caner, Mac, Gaines, Jeffries, and all the rest.

A.M. Mallett said...

Jesus Christ alone is your spiritual leader. If you had the indwelling Holy Spirit, you would know that and be able to discern that Mac is a charlatan.

If that is the case, why do you feel it incumbent upon yourself to go around telling everybody else about it??

A.M. Mallett said...

Gosh, here is Mr. White's cruise party from a couple years ago.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3053
Whats up with all this kingdom work on cruises anyways??

Anonymous said...

A.M. Mallett,

How astute of you to see that Dr. White has indeed had a bit of leisure time while proclaiming the gospel.

Too bad that you don't read his site enough to know that he does not try to manipulate and guilt people into sending him their hard-earned cash. I personally support his ministry to the extent that I can. I've been following him for a couple of years now, and I'd say maybe once every six weeks he reminds us in a humble way that for him to enter into debates costs money for travel, etc. Let me also tell you that Dr. White does not live like Mac Brunson.

If you cannot see that Mac is a manipulator of people for his own personal gain, then you have a serious problem with discernment. Ever been to Dr. White's church? It's a very non-discript dwelling. It is comfortable but not flashy. They live within their means and do not engage in contracts with people that they cannot honor. And... they do not teach the OT tithe. In fact, just yesterday someone called the Dividing Line and asked about the OT tithe in Malachi. Go to his site and download the program. You can hear what he says for yourself.

Anonymous said...

"Jesus Christ alone is your spiritual leader. If you had the indwelling Holy Spirit, you would know that and be able to discern that Mac is a charlatan.

If that is the case, why do you feel it incumbent upon yourself to go around telling everybody else about it??"

October 1, 2010 1:48 PM

Scritpure tells us we should 'snatch them from the fire'. They do not know they are following a charlatan. Just as you do not know you support a charlatan in Caner.

They do not know that they do not know. It is that simple. I hope they go to scripture and study alone without the man made filters.

Unfortuantly, many think that someone must be paid to study the Word for them and explain what it means. For some it is laziness. For others, they think there is special anointing for a man conferred title. Or, they like to be entertained. That is most likely what attracts the Caner followers.

The Other Tom said...

Mallett said:

“Gosh, here is Mr. White's cruise party from a couple years ago.

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3053

Whats up with all this kingdom work on cruises anyways??”

===========================

What Mallett fails to mention is that the cruise he mentioned was available for $150 a person (no, that’s not a typo). While Brunson is charging the following for his:

February 27 – March 8 – Israel only - $3,342

February 27 – March 11 – Israel plus Rome - $4,330

But as far as Mallett is concerned, there is no difference between the two.

John H said...

Keep in mind, folks, that Galatians 2 is as much in your Bibles as anything else.

Remember that story? Paul has the audacity, the gall, to publicly rebuke Peter, because Peter's public behavior has been a reproach to the Gospel and caused Christians to sin.

Nowhere does Paul indicate that he went privately to Peter first, or that he went in the presence of witnesses, so obviously, we must discount that he was sinful, because he opened fire publicly rather than handling it behind the scenes, right?

Oh, wait, the causing of the public of the church to stumble is appropriately met with public confrontation, isn't it? And then, when Peter writes his epistles, after the confrontation with Paul (most likely, based on research) he commends Paul's writings and also writes as if he feels that all are equal before God, rather than divided Jew and Gentile.

In other words, while we don't know Peter's immediate reaction, we see his long-term behavior: acceptance of his rebuker, and he matures in his beliefs to agree with Paul.

Just a thought. If you're being rebuked, and it's appropriate Biblically, you should take it, grow from it. Anyone refuse to preach/learn from Peter over that one failure in his life? How about the other failures? I fail, you fail, everybody fails to be perfect, but we should be able to grow from it.

If we'll admit it. And I'd think that seminary professors and pastors ought to be the first to be man enough to admit it.

John H.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

John - I think they're taught in seminary that when they are being rebuked (what they call "attacked"), that is proof they are doing the will of God. They cannot be rebuked. Only attacked, and the "attackers" are run off.

John H said...

Dog--

I know, because I've been in those classes. Fortunately, I've had other professors between college and seminary that pointed out the truth.

It's just that they taught electives.

Anonymous said...

This whole situation reminds me of the Clinton apologists of the 90's. Everyone knew (including themselves) that they were denying the obvious. But it was politically advantageous at that time and character didn't really matter as long as you could do the job - right? Just never thought I would see the very same attitude from Baptists. Matthew 5:13

Lockheed said...

Is it more than Mr White makes with all his cavorting around the country?

ROFL. Are you serious? Do you seriously think Dr. White "makes" money on his trips?

You realize of course that Reformed Baptist congregations are substantially smaller than your typical SBC church? Do you also realize that Dr. White's group often pays for the other debaters just to show up? His ministry barely survives on donations and book sales.

If you think he's making money, you're out of your mind.

Katie said...

Let's do a little compare and contrast shall we. Have a look at this website:

http://www.bing.com/local/details.aspx?lid=YN63x461062&qt=yp&what=Phoenix+Reformed+Baptist+Church&where=Phoenix%2c+Arizona&s_cid=ansPhBkYp02&mkt=en-us&q=Phoenix+Reformed+Baptist+Church

Off to the left is a picture of Dr. White's church. Still think he is making big money?