Below is a June 4th devotional entry at Love Worth Finding ministries, entitled "God Blesses Through the Tithe":God Blesses Through the Tithe
June 4
Sometimes when I talk about tithing, people will say, “Well, you don’t expect that little widow to tithe her pension, do you?" I’d say, “Sure!" And they reply, “You hardhearted man!"
I’d be hardhearted if I didn’t teach her to tithe; I want her to be blessed! If there’s anybody who needs to depend on God, it’s that kind of a person. You’re not smarter than God…don’t you know that God knows what that little lady needs?
And this person will say, "You’re trying to take her money from her. The church doesn’t need it." And that person is right on the second part. No, God doesn’t need her money, or anyone else's for that matter.
But God wants to bless. He says, “Prove Me! I’ll renew your faith, I’ll rebuke your foes, and I’ll restore your fruitfulness. Your fruit is not going to fall to the ground ahead of time. I’ll make you fruitful in all that you do."
You’ll always do more with nine-tenths and God as a partner, than you do with ten-tenths by yourself. It’s time we began to trust the Lord!
Proverbs 3:5-10 says, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. Honor the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine."
The words above are attributed to Adrian Rogers on the website. I don't know if this is an actual excerpt from one of his sermons, or if he actually penned it, or if someone on the LWF staff ghost wrote it. I really don't know, but it is attributed to Adrian Rogers, written in first person.
As I said previously, Adrian Rogers was probably the best preacher of the gospel I ever heard. His sermons at the FBC Jax Pastors' Conference on Tuesday nights were incredible. But if the above represents Adrian Rogers' view on tithing, I believe he was wrong on this one issue. He may have been sincere, and I believe he was sincere, but he was still wrong.
The message to poor widows on a meager pension is that the channel of God's blessing is through them giving 1/10th of their pension to their church. Notice that "dependence on God" is demonstrated through giving the tithe. And "God WANTS to bless" it says....as though God's wants to, but can't, or won't, unless she forks over 1/10th of her income as a requirement.
If she chooses to give 1/10th of her pension to her church, so be it. But I sure hope preachers, and I hope financial gurus who teach Christian stewardship like Dave Ramsey, don't tell widows they should be forking over 1/10th of their income to the church in order to allow God to bless them. I certainly hope preachers would never tell her that she is driving a stolen car or living in a stolen retirement home (I guess that analogy breaks down here) or wearing stolen clothes.
And I hope that no preacher would threaten her by saying "God collects on what is due him" and tells her that if she does NOT give 10%, God will get it from her anyways through a leaking roof and sinking investments and car crashes. That would be sad, if a preacher ever preached that to old ladies on a meager pension, would it not?
110 comments:
Where is the storehouse ?
The tithe goes to making Pastors rich, not to the storhouse.
"You’re trying to take her money from her. The CHURCH doesn’t need it." And that person is right on the second part. No, GOD doesn’t need her money, or anyone else's for that matter." (Emphasis Mine)
___________________________________
Here is my biggest problem with this teaching. Not so much with giving 10% of your income away and trusting God. But the "who" to give it to irks me and is not biblical. Notice how Adrian equates the church with God. He uses them interchangably. The "church" has replaced God. Giving to the church is giving to God? Serving the church and its pastors and members is serving God? This is idolatry. God is a jealous God. Jesus said if you do it to the least of these (not to the church) you have done if to me. Please, Christians, stop giving time, money and service to a church and thinking you are giving to God. Go ahead and give to God. Just don't be fooled into thinking your church, or that man hired to fill the pulpit, is God or God's man. Woe to those who give to the rich, says Proverbs. Those institutions are very, very wealthy. Give to the poor and needy instead. God will be blessed and so will the recipient. Thanks.
Haven't been to First Baptist Church in over two years and from day one no phone call or visit to even see if we are alive but bless their hearts they still still spend their money to send me my monthly "tithing" envelopes.
Please note Jax members, your tithing monies spent to send our family these useless envelopes goes right in the trash. Each and every month.
Our love offering called "tithing" is faithfully given each and every month to the storehouse of Missions - to the ones who are responsible for raising their own funds just to afford to stay in the ministry. They don't live high on the hog, wear high dollar clothes, drive new cars, take cruises and vacations calling it mission trips. It's a great feeling to give to those who truly have financial needs.
I know not one small town pastor who has to scold, rant or rave on the need for tithing - people have eyes and ears - they see the needs and will lovingly give their last dime to help fulfill their call to ministry. As for First Baptist - they have the money, just look at their website and see all the events coming up - the money is there!
Here are the problems with you post:
1- You speak of Dr. Rogers position with respect but to those who support the tithe on your blog with much less. Many who you publish here speak to those who support tithing with total disdain.
2 - Dr. Rogers gives his interpretation and you disagree and want to have others agree with your interpretation. Why should anyone after studying scripture who comes to the conclusion that tithing is still in affect and our giving today begins there stand with you over Dr. Rogers?
Ben says:
"Why should anyone after studying scripture who comes to the conclusion that tithing is still in affect and our giving today begins there stand with you over Dr. Rogers?"
Easy answer - they should not agree with me over Adrian Rogers if they've studied the scripture and are led to their conclusion by their own study.
But if anyone reading this blog has simpliy relied on Adrian Rogers words, or Jerry Vines' words or their preacher's ABOUT what the Bible says, instead of their own reading and study - which should include study of credible men who disagree with Rogers and Vines on this issue like those I've put forth - then I hope THOSE people will take a closer look at the issue. That is all I'm saying Ben.
But I'm afraid the overwhelming majority of church members who believe the storehouse tithing doctrine have not looked at it. They THINK they have, because they've heard it for so long from their preacher. It is a complicated doctrine for sure, involving scriptures from various parts of the Old Testament, a few New Testament scriptures, all assembled into one easy rock-solid doctrine: "give 10% to your church undesignated to be obedient".
I'm not trying to change YOUR mind Ben. Just others who haven't been fully programmed yet, who still are able to take an objective look at the doctrine and consider another viewpoint.
:)
Ben - still worshiping preachers.
Well, since you are so enamored by famous pastors, perhaps this Q&A from John MacArthur will make an impression.
Of course, by your logic, if you disagree with him you are saying that John MacArthur was a liar or at best deceived.
Question
Does God require me to give a tithe of all I earn?
Answer
Two kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary).
The issue has been greatly confused, however, by some who misunderstand the nature of the Old Testament tithes. Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel.
Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax, as was a second annual tithe required by God to fund a national festival (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Smaller taxes were also imposed on the people by the law (Leviticus 19:9-10; Exodus 23:10-11). So the total giving required of the Israelites was not 10 percent, but well over 20 percent. All that money was used to operate the nation.
All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified.
New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government--a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel.
The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7: "Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."
One of the world's most respected pastors says that you are wrong Ben.
Are you calling him a liar?
Is Tithing for Today?
J. Vernon McGee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWItOyH3fs
Anon 9:35
Thanks for posting John MacArthur's views on the tithe. It was this very teaching that taught me many things and many of them were things I didn't want to acknowledge.
I read everything I could get my hands on about giving the tithe. My conclusion was that for decades, I'd been lied to by people I trusted because they understood the Bible far better than I did. I depended on them and needed them to guide me. Worse, I even told people what all those Pastors had said as if it was the absolute truth.
Yet, the truth was always right in front of me. Jesus was not the least bit shy about taking on the Pharisees. We shouldn't be shy about taking on our religious leaders if we think they are wrong.
I don't think we have to cause endless divisions over minutia because God does not want us to be divided amongst ourselves without good cause. But we who take up space in the pews need to study for ourselves. Scriptures tells us to study to show ourselves approved.
Thanks again for posting. I know some people will just start in on MacArthur's Calvinism and completely ignore the wisdom. But I was so very grateful for the lessons I learned.
Blessings to you.
Tom,
You did not say "where, or why" Adrian is wrong, just "that" he is.
Anon - 10/20 8:15
You cannot give to God apart from giving to/through the church. "the house of God, which is the church of God, the pillar and ground of truth."
1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul wrote for every man to lay "in store". The root word for thesaurizo is thesauros, which is defined by Louw-Nida as "store room or store house".
When are you to put in the "store-room" "store-house"? - On the first day of the week.
10% is beside the point here. The overall problem rests in the fact that when I hear someone say, "I only give 2% or 4% - that's all that I can afford" the first thing that sticks out, is that their giving must fit within their lifestyle, rather than their lifestyle fitting within their giving.
If you only want to give 4% that's your business. Then set the amount, and downsize everything else to fit.
God is to get the FIRST and the BEST, and we are to function on the rest, whatever that rest may be.
I believe that 10% is the standard example from the scriptures. Therefore, I cannot live above 90% of my income. The house gets downsized before the offering does. The vehicles, the groceries, the ball games, the cable, all get diminished before the offering.
Any other way is giving God the leftovers, and nothing can be more unbiblical.
"I'm not trying to change YOUR mind Ben. Just others who haven't been fully programmed yet, who still are able to take an objective look at the doctrine and consider another viewpoint.".
So those who disagree with you are programmed and unable to look at scripture and doctrine objectively?
Wow, that's somewhat Lumpkinesque. (sp?)
Anon 10:10 - Good word.
"God is to get the FIRST and the BEST, and we are to function on the rest, whatever that rest may be.
I believe that 10% is the standard example from the scriptures. Therefore, I cannot live above 90% of my income. The house gets downsized before the offering does. The vehicles, the groceries, the ball games, the cable, all get diminished before the offering.
Any other way is giving God the leftovers, and nothing can be more unbiblical."
October 20, 2010 10:10 AM
Then Anon answer me this question!
Once I give my 10%,is it then right for the Pastor to raid the coffers and enrich himself at my expense???
Is he not to act responsibly with the treasures that have been entrusted to him,like say help those in need among the congregation???
Ben says: "So those who disagree with you are programmed and unable to look at scripture and doctrine objectively?"
Nice try Ben. I like your tenacity.
What I'm saying is that there are church members who have heard the tithing doctrine taught for so long, and so consistently for decades their entire lives, and are so committed to it psychologically and financially, that yes, they can't possibly consider that their preachers were wrong, or that THEY were wrong on the issue. Very few of these people will listen to a word any preacher will say that contradicts what they believe, and much less would they ever listen to me.
But there are some who aren't so entrenched in their doctrinal stances, or through the brazenness of some tithing sheep beating preachers that are having their eyes opened and see that the doctrine is not supported in scripture...and more importantly, that will recognize the charleton preachers who use this doctrine to strong-arm their church members by calling them criminals and threatening them with God's judgment.
I hope my blog might help facilitate that process of having people's eyes opened..and your participation here and the dialogue back and forth I think faciltiates that process. So thanks for your continued engagement in the discussion, brother.
"So those who disagree with you are programmed and unable to look at scripture and doctrine objectively?"
Wow, that's somewhat Lumpkinesque. (sp?)
October 20, 2010 11:31 AM
Yep Ben thats exactly how it is!!!
There is absolutely no objective,contextual way to Biblically defend tithing being enforced in the N.T.,
"NO WAY PERIOD"!!!.
Haven't been to First Baptist Church in over two years and from day one no phone call or visit to even see if we are alive but bless their hearts they still still spend their money to send me my monthly "tithing" envelopes.
Why should they waste God's time dealing with a Pharisee. If you want to go to chruch, then you will go. If not, stay home like you are doing. It is not the church's or pastor's responsibility to pat you on the back or listen to your bellyaching. Get over yourself. The church is better off, I'm sure, with the likes of you gone. No doubt a big time troublemaker.
If Baptist preachers spent even HALF the time telling people how much God loves them that they spend telling them how to live their lives, the church walls would burst.
We have current Baptist leaders telling us what to think about Islam, yoga, Mormons, Catholics, liberals, homosexuals, Oprah, to name a few - all things we can and SHOULD figure out for ourselves as believers.
We have current Baptist leaders telling us when and how often to come to church, how much to give, and what not to drink or watch on tv and at the movies - all things we can and SHOULD figure out for ourselves as believers.
I'd rather them spend a little more time on keeping the faith through these incredibly difficult times, how much God wants to fellowship with us, and reaching out to others who are desperate and without hope.
I'm not trying to change YOUR mind Ben. Just others who haven't been fully programmed yet, who still are able to take an objective look at the doctrine and consider another viewpoint.
You are saying that anyone with a different view than yourself has a closed mind and are not objective. You call them programmed (a slam at their intelligence). You are very disrespectful, proven by your insensitive attempt to dredge up a dead pastor's sermon to try to prove a point. Are you wanting people who had great respect (not worship) for Dr. Rogers to change their opinion of him? What is the point of this post, exactly? New low for you, Tom. And that is saying something!
The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7: "Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."
I totally agree with Dr. MacArthur. If that was being done by the disgruntled bloggers on this site, there would be no reason for this crazy blog to exist!
Great post, MJ.
Again Tom, you are trying to say that if people disagree with you, then their eyes are closed to the truth. What arrogance.
Dr. MacArthur, whom I respect greatly, is a 5 point calvanist, as well. Do you agree with him on that?
The point of the story of the Widow's contribution is that Jesus is bemoaning why a widow would feel compelled to give all she had to live on to the temple, which should have been supporting her as an act of justice and mercy. In the previous passage, Jesus has criticized those who oversee the temple as those who plunder the homes of widows.
Read it...it is there
The whole idea behind the widow and her two mites was she was not trying to make a big noise..like banging around coins in the container. The elders like to throw them in so the poorer would see and hear them throw in a handfull. Seems like the amount to Jesus was less important than what was in ones heart. Bless her soul.
First of all, if you are going to place yourself under the law then you have to be obedient to the whole law. Under the law 10% is not sufficient. If you are only giving 10% then you are still disobedient. The law is “tithes and offerings” that total to over 23% that is what is in the Bible. So if you think you are being obedient by giving 10% you are wrong you are just as disobedient as the person giving less.
Second, if you are able to give 10% or more you live a very blessed life for which you need to thank God everyday for this tremendous blessing because at any moment your world could be turned upside down and your ability to pay the “tithe” could be taken away from you.
Third, is your offering actually being accepted? Are you fully reconciled to “your brother who has something against you?” If not, you are only deceiving yourself because the Bible clearly teaches that your offering is not accepted.
There is a brother, a deacon and sometime deacon officer, who befriended me. To the church, he is the epitome of the perfect “Christian” man who tithes and is a missionary. Over the course of a year we met and prayed together we talked everyday on the phone. Our families played together. In March of a certain year he came to me and made a proposal about working with him to grow his business, we prayed about it and in April I accepted his proposal and I quit a very good job. I took what we had agreed would be a temporary 50% pay cut until we had enough volume to repay what I lost. From April to August I worked and built the business with him to 4 to 5 times what he had been doing. What I did not know is that, even though he had had a very good year the previous year he had already spent the money so that when it came time to pay his taxes he did not have it. Do you see where this is going? By August, he not only had enough to pay his previous year’s taxes he had enough of a back log to get him through the next year!
In August, he comes to me and says he made a mistake and this is harder than he thought it would be and that I had to go but the most important thing was our friendship. OK, fine will you at least give me what I have lost, I asked him. No, he answered even though I knew he had it in his power to do so. And guess what, even though we had talked every day for over a year he has never called me again. Is he reconciled to his brother that has something against him? Is his offering acceptable?
You see my brothers and sisters; life is not as simple as 10%. Your life could easily be turned upside and inside out but that’s OK, because in the end it all belongs to God.
"You cannot give to God apart from giving to/through the church. "the house of God, which is the church of God, the pillar and ground of truth.""
Are you serious?
"Again Tom, you are trying to say that if people disagree with you, then their eyes are closed to the truth. What arrogance."
Wouldn't you say the same thing about people who disagree with your viewpoint?
If not, why are you debating with them?
"Dr. MacArthur, whom I respect greatly, is a 5 point calvanist, as well. Do you agree with him on that?"
According to Ben's logic, you have just called a great man of God a liar or at best deceived.
So which is it?
"So those who disagree with you are programmed and unable to look at scripture and doctrine objectively?"
Not unable just unwilling. Like a cult member they have been so indoctrinated into a particular philosophy and are so emotionally invested that they can't bear to admit that they were deceived and perhaps deceived others.
That's why cult members stay in the group long after a non-indoctrinated individual would have left. Or perhaps they never admit to failure and just drink the cool-aid.
That's not any more illogical than being raised under the false NT tithe doctrine and then refusing to give it up even when it is pointed out to you that the OT Israelites were paying 3 tithes and that they never gave money and that it went to Levites (who couldn't own anything) and the poor and for festivals.
You have to ignore a mountain of inconsistencies plus 2 Corinthians 9:7 in order to hold to what your pastor was taught in seminary.
And the reaction so far has been to attack the individual and ignore the issues raised.
That is some effective argumentation.
I'm impressed.
"Wow, that's somewhat Lumpkinesque."
Word of the day toilet paper?
"Dr. MacArthur, whom I respect greatly, is a 5 point calvanist, as well. Do you agree with him on that?"
Oh, so you can have respect for a pastor and he can be wrong in one area?
Thanks for proving Ben's point wrong.
Bro./Min Rod H,
Of course not. But that has nothign to do with whether or not we give to the Lord to/through the church.
If a pastor is squandering the Lord's money, get a new pastor.
Their should always be a "firewall" between the pastor and the money of the church. The church manages the money, not the pastor. If they choose to overpay a hireling, then their are problems much bigger than what percent someone's giving.
What a pastor does or does not do, has absolutely no bearing on the Christian's submission to the Biblical teachings of giving, whether you think that's 10% or 20 bushels.
To blame one's refusal to give on the preacher, is an alibi for sin that will not stand up in the court of the Kingdom.
Change pastors, or change churches, but every Christian is taught to give God the First and the Best of His increase in their lives.
I still stand on the fact that the Biblical example is 10% and to know an example and not follow that example is sin.
First of all, if you are going to place yourself under the law then you have to be obedient to the whole law. Under the law 10% is not sufficient. If you are only giving 10% then you are still disobedient. The law is “tithes and offerings” that total to over 23% that is what is in the Bible. So if you think you are being obedient by giving 10% you are wrong you are just as disobedient as the person giving less.
Second, if you are able to give 10% or more you live a very blessed life for which you need to thank God everyday for this tremendous blessing because at any moment your world could be turned upside down and your ability to pay the “tithe” could be taken away from you.
Third, is your offering actually being accepted? Are you fully reconciled to “your brother who has something against you?” If not, you are only deceiving yourself because the Bible clearly teaches that your offering is not accepted.
There is a brother, a deacon and sometime deacon officer, who befriended me. To the church, he is the epitome of the perfect “Christian” man who tithes and is a missionary. Over the course of a year we met and prayed together we talked everyday on the phone. Our families played together. In March of a certain year he came to me and made a proposal about working with him to grow his business, we prayed about it and in April I accepted his proposal and I quit a very good job. I took what we had agreed would be a temporary 50% pay cut until we had enough volume to repay what I lost. From April to August I worked and built the business with him to 4 to 5 times what he had been doing. What I did not know is that, even though he had had a very good year the previous year he had already spent the money so that when it came time to pay his taxes he did not have it. Do you see where this is going? By August, he not only had enough to pay his previous year’s taxes he had enough of a back log to get him through the next year!
In August, he comes to me and says he made a mistake and this is harder than he thought it would be and that I had to go but the most important thing was our friendship. OK, fine will you at least give me what I have lost, I asked him. No, he answered even though I knew he had it in his power to do so. And guess what, even though we had talked every day for over a year he has never called me again. Is he reconciled to his brother that has something against him? Is his offering acceptable?
You see my brothers and sisters; life is not as simple as 10%. Your life could easily be turned upside and inside out but that’s OK, because in the end it all belongs to God.
Am I the only one have Blogger Boo Boo's
WD-
This whole discussion has really set me to thinking, which is always a good thing. It either causes you to know even deeper why you hold to a belief or it causes you to change your belief.
As I have begun processing all of this, I keep coming back to one thought: Was Dr. Rogers, Drs. Lindsay, Dr. Vines, etc all Spirit filled and thus led by the Holy Spirit? If they were, then would not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, lead them in all truth, as Jesus said? Even on the issue of tithing.
I am not saying that every preacher who preaches tithing is Spirit filled. Certainly, there are those who preach it and teach it out of their own greed. You have done a good job exposing some of them.
I would like your thoughts on this, as I say, I am looking at anothers point of view on this issue. I hope you take this in the spirit that it was written and asked, and I think you will, and not as a challenge.
Kyle
"I still stand on the fact that the Biblical example is 10% and to know an example and not follow that example is sin."
Actually (if we are going to ignore 2 Corinthians 9:7 and use the OT law) the Biblical example is 23 1/3%.
Israelites paid 3 tithes in the OT.
Leviticus 27:30
Deuteronomy 14:22
Deuteronomy 14:28
By your definition, unless you are paying over 23% of your income to the church you are sinning by not following the OT example.
We can save the logic of your statement (to know an example and not follow that example is sin) for another time.
For instance, I doubt if you are following Paul's example in Romans 16: 16.
If you are, I would like to visit your church.
"I keep coming back to one thought: Was Dr. Rogers, Drs. Lindsay, Dr. Vines, etc all Spirit filled and thus led by the Holy Spirit? If they were, then would not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, lead them in all truth, as Jesus said? Even on the issue of tithing."
I keep coming back to one thought: was Martin Luther, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, etc all Spirit filled and thus led by the Holy Spirit? If they were, then would not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, lead them in all truth, as Jesus said? Even on the issue of tithing?
Second, if you are able to give 10% or more you live a very blessed life for which you need to thank God everyday for this tremendous blessing because at any moment your world could be turned upside down and your ability to pay the “tithe” could be taken away from you.
First of all, everybody "can" give 10%, it is just that most have chosen a lifestyle for themselves above what is necessary and have chosen to put God's work on the bottom of the priority list. What is above it you might ask? Cable, Cell phones, cars, houses, boats, etc. If you only make $10 per week the you CAN afford to give as much as you can afford anything else in this life. A true servant of God understands that he/she can not afford to NOT give. By the way, since when did money = a blessed life?
MJ-good post.
"First of all, everybody "can" give 10%"
So what?
The OT example is 23%.
"the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord." - Leviticus 27:32
Holiness did not change with the fulfillment of law and is an amount stamped as holy whether you're talking fruits, cattle, or finances.
Holiness transcends all dispensations. Holiness is an eternal term, and it is what it is, in the law, under the law, on top of the law, and waaaaayyyy after the law.
The belief that Christians ought to tithe, rightly understood, has no binding connection whatsoever to do with the old law. No one is trying to put anyone under law through the teaching of the tithe. If they are they're not teaching it right.
Good posts!
anon 8:15
anon 9:11
wd
anon 9:35
anon 9:37
katie
bro rod
wd
bro rod
anon 11:51
tim marsh
anon 2:02
wishihadknown
wishihadknown
anon 4:26
anon 4:47
anon 5:01
Change pastors, or change churches, but every Christian is taught to give God the First and the Best of His increase in their lives.
I still stand on the fact that the Biblical example is 10% and to know an example and not follow that example is sin.
October 20, 2010 3:13 PM
__________________________________
MJ - welcome to this new blog. Please read the hundreds of comments and numerous threads and many discussions about what you are writing. To summarize it for you: no where. Not in the New Testament, not in the Old Testament, does it say that Christians are to tithe. No where does it say Jesus told believers to tithe. No where does it say Jesus himself tithed. And certainly no where does it say Christians are to give the first and best to God. And even if it did, is the local church now God so that they what you give to God actually goes to the local church/ekklesia? Get real. You are spouting church-speak nonsense. But thanks for popping off your nonsense. It won't hunt here.
October 20, 2010 5:07 PM and MJ - it makes no sense for a man making $30K per month and giving $3K per month tithe and still having $27K left over, to think he is giving "equally" as a person who makes $3000 per month and gives $300 per month and has nothig left over. The rich man loves this tithing doctrine, while the poor man is burdened by it. Hmmm... Which makes more sense to those of us who love and know Jesus?
Easy for you to say. Hope you can continue to live in your very blessed world.
If it were that as easy as you say then around 80% of us would be doing it.
Cable - no
Cell phone - required as part of my job.
Car - I take the bus
House - OK you got me there I do have a house that I have had up for sell six times and never even had anyone look at.
Boat - you are kidding right? I have one I play with in the bath tub.
Do you really tithe? Remember, if you dedcut your contributions on your tax return and you are in the 30% tax braket then you have to give 14.29% to actually tithe at 10%.
Several things, I heard Dr. Rogers preach on the tithe many times over more than thirty years and at most it was two maybe three times a year. Nothing like the entire month devoted to “stewardship” like now. You really have to hear the sermons in their entirety because he normally started out saying something like “this is what I believe the Bible says and if you disagree with me that’s fine. Take it up with God; don’t take it up with me. I am only telling you what I believe to be true.”
He would also point out that the Jew was required to give over 23%.
Dr. Rogers never taught or even alluded to tithing as being a condition of salvation like we hear now. “Don’t let that hinder you from coming to Christ.” I do not recall him ever saying God is judging because people are not tithing. I can tell you from experience how Dr. Rogers taught about tithing is totally different from the way his successor teaches and it was nowhere near the frequency. Dr. Rogers’ sermon were never anything like you hear these guys preach today, I have heard both.
Also Dr. Rogers lived a fairly thrifty lifestyle. He did not live in a million dollar mansion and only later in life did he live in a gated community. He did not belong to a country club or eat in the most expensive steak house in town. He took a much lower salary than was offered and lived in a smaller house, too.
Personally, I think we should give the preachers what they ask for; if you don’t give 10% then don’t give them anything at all or better yet go to a church where 3 and 4 percenters are welcome. If I were a pastor I’d welcome as many 3 and 4 percenters as I could get.
Changing to a different thought on the same subject. The allusion to the poor widow giving 10% is really fairly accurate. The typical tither I see is usually a widow or an older couple (notice I did not say old) who is in the twilight of life. The children are grown the mortgage is paid and they still have their health.
J. Vernon McGee HAS BEEN DEAD FOR 22 YEARS!
Actually if we followed the law EXACTLY most of us would NOT tithe at all. LOL. I'd bet most of the occupations represented here were of the class that were not required to tithe. And we'd never give money. We would be dealing in the fruit of harvest.... animals, wheat... etc.
Yes... Paul said if you want to follow the OT law, you will have to keep the WHOLE law. Anyone want to stone their children to death for disobedience?
No, the verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy aren't examples to NT Christians. They are the recorded history of this particular generation of people.
The big message here, in my very humble opinion is that we need to be careful where we look for truthful teaching and to check everything against the scriptures.
Blessings to all.
Anon 5:01-
So who missed it, who got it wrong? That is my question.
Kyle
Haven't been to First Baptist Church in over two years and from day one no phone call or visit to even see if we are alive but bless their hearts they still still spend their money to send me my monthly "tithing" envelopes.
Please note Jax members, your tithing monies spent to send our family these useless envelopes goes right in the trash. Each and every month.
Yep. That's exactly how it goes. They're out recruiting new members while ignoring the ones they've got -- except for those blamed envelopes. They'd be perfectly happy to accept your money, but they couldn't care less about you. (Re the envelopes, I always shred mine first.)
"You cannot give to God apart from giving to/through the church. "the house of God, which is the church of God, the pillar and ground of truth.""
Are you serious?
"As I said previously, Adrian Rogers was probably the best preacher of the gospel I ever heard. His sermons at the FBC Jax Pastors' Conference on Tuesday nights were incredible. But if the above represents Adrian Rogers' view on tithing, I believe he was wrong on this one issue. He may have been sincere, and I believe he was sincere, but he was still wrong."
From what I read on this blog over the short period of time I have been visiting and making the few comments here and there I gather that you do not like Reformed Theology and probably won't be that happy on posting this but I hope you do and I hope you read and listen to what I post and maybe God will open your eyes and ears soon.
"Rogers was no friend of Calvinism. In fact, more than once he was quite outspoken in his criticism of the doctrines of grace and especially some within Southern Baptist life who hold those doctrines to be the truth of God's Word. He referred to them (us) as "wine and cheese theologians." I was always saddened by his public denunciations of reformed theology because he seemed always to be attacking a straw man. Some of his comments provided fuel for the flames that were directed against faithful pastors by disgruntled church members and denominational servants." - from Adrian Rogers--A Tribute by Tom Ascol
I believe Mr. Ascol is saying that lovingly and factually without a spirit of criticism, in other words he is not being mean spirited. The overall tribute is saying it like it is and he speaks highly of the late Mr. Rodgers.
Mr. Rodgers was not only wrong about "tithing" he was also wrong about the historical Reformed Faith, which was and still is often nicknamed "Calvinism" by friend and foe alike. I am a Christian and I don't like any nicknames actually but I do study as much as I am able to so as I can come to the knowledge of the "true-truth" as the late Francis Schaeffer used to say. I believe that Calvinism or the Reformed Faith, is more in line with what the Bible teaches than what Arminianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Pelagianism or any other theological belief system does.
Adrian Rogers v. James White on Calvinism (Radio Free Geneva)
"In this edition, Dr. James White critiques a sermon presented by Dr. Adrian Rogers that gives many of the fallacies and inconsistencies those who do not hold to the Reformed faith usually commit. These errors include believing that the word "foreknow" is a noun, taking out words from Scripture like Matt. 23:37 to defend one's tradition, and thinking that unless a man's will is free, they are robots. This has been touted as very helpful by several people who have heard it because of Dr. White's refutations then explanations. The listener call-in section at around the last half hour or so is helpful, too."
I realize there will be many who will vehemently disagree with me and dare I say hate me for posting this but it is true. Btw, I am an expert in winning friends and influencing people.
So I believe there is more than just the "one issue," of "tithing", that Adrian Rodgers was wrong on.
I have heard many Christians preach the full-orbed, biblical Gospel besides Adrian Rodgers and some of them more clearer and accurately than he.
God help us all please.
Watchdog regarding doctrine. This is the critical thesis on which Paul wrote his letters. Preach the Word and teaching doctrine is what God told Paul to do. Also, this is what preachers today are supposed to teach/preach. Sound doctrine. 1. Eternal Security 2. The Holy Spirit dwelling within a saved person 3. A literal Hell. 4. A literal Devil and his angels. 5.The Virgin Birth. 6. The Trinity 7.2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, or reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
8.Prophecy.
So Anon 5:07 it does not matter that I was lied to or that I was defrauded all that matters is whether I give 10% or not?
No where does it say Jesus himself tithed.
If Jesus didn't tithe, how did he keep the law perfectly?
Matthew 17:24-27
Anonymous (Oct. 20, 2:03 PM),
You missed the point on the Widow's mite. Jesus is not commending her for giving in a discreet way. Where is that in the text or context?
I agree that many sermons have been preached that show the widow as an example of someone with not very much giving what she had to God. Great! However, that is not the point of the text.
Read Luke 20:45-47, the passage prior to the Widow's Mite. Our chapter number changes but there is no change of scene. Jesus has just warned his disciples against the Teachers of Law doing their goodness for show. He has accused them of plundering widows' houses. Widows had very little. Various OT texts (Jeremiah 7, for example) and NT Texts like James 1:22ff uphold the responsibility of the community to support the widow.
The point of the passage is that "she gave all she had to live on" to a money-making machine, the Temple.
John's ministry of Baptizing in the desert was a rejection of the ministry of the Temple. Sacrifices were made at the Temple for the forgiveness of sins, not baptism in the desert.
Jesus was in no way commending poor people to contribute to the Temple ministry. Rather, he is contrasting the irony of the widow giving to the very cause that was supposed to be supporting her financially.
A correlation today would be that TV Ministries like the now-bankrupt Crystal Cathedral and the Trinity Broadcasting Network receive most of their "seed money" from lower income families. Yet their "pastors" are rolling in 6-digit plus salaries. Some, like Benny Hinn, are paid millions.
The widow's mite should never be used as an example to lower income families to throw their money into the collection plate. It was, for Jesus, not an example of faithfulness, but of the corruption of the Temple ministry and those who supervised it.
"J. Vernon McGee HAS BEEN DEAD FOR 22 YEARS!"
Adrian Rogers has been dead for 5 years.
Your point?
Douglas you are right I do not think Reformed Theology will have a warm reception here since the Baptist movement moved beyond Reformed Theology long ago. Don’t let that stop you, just know that the feedback will be very harsh and hostile.
So Anon 5:07 it does not matter that I was lied to or that I was defrauded all that matters is whether I give 10% or not?
No, all that matters is that you are obedient.
Calvinism is a HUGE problem in Baptist churches today...Thus the potential failure of Baptist churches currently. FBCJ in my opinion has ventured too far into this territory and I do not expect a good outcome. If preachers would PREACH the WORD, and preach DOCTRINE from the BIBLE, then they might(?) come close to what God requires them to do. But, only if they get THEMSELVES out of the way and off the stage.
Anonymous (Oct. 20, 11:17, PM),
Paul is told to preach sound doctrine.
However, what is the content of that sound doctrine? You assume that it is the eight areas you listed. How do you know that?
Could the sound doctrine be ETHICAL rather than THEOLOGICAL? Could "love your enemies" be the doctrine that makes or breaks you entrance into eternity, not the virgin birth?
Just some things to think on...
How obedient do you have to be?
Do you lie?
Do you get angry when someone cuts you off in traffic?
Do you sometimes have impure thoughts when you see someone attractive?
Do you exasperate your children?
Does paying a tithe constitute obedience?
Are you truly giving the 14.9% that I point out you have to pay that would get you to the 10% you claim to pay?
You see, if you have wronged someone, did you know your offerings do not count. You are only wasting your money. Did you know your offerings actually count toward the person you have wronged! So you may be paying 10% to the church but they are actually my offerings. Not only that but to be reconciled to someone you have wronged you must repay four times the amount you took!
The law is a complicated thing and remember to offend in just one part is to break the whole thing.
Of course, now that you are paying my offerings for me I am obligated to pray for you so that my offerings my increase and be acceptable.
For reference, you may check out some of Dr. Rogers’ other sermons.
How obedient do you have to be?
Do you lie?
Do you get angry when someone cuts you off in traffic?
Do you sometimes have impure thoughts when you see someone attractive?
Do you exasperate your children?
Does paying a tithe constitute obedience?
Are you truly giving the 14.9% that I point out you have to pay that would get you to the 10% you claim to pay?
Are you kidding? If you are not completely obedient to how God is speaking to you then you are not obedient at all. Period.
"I still stand on the fact that the Biblical example is 10% and to know an example and not follow that example is sin."
Please give us scriptural support from the New Covenant for the 10%. It is ignorant to believe something you cannot prove from the Word.
I always love how those of Reformed Theology have to find a way to get into every discussion and tell all of us non-reformers how smart they are, that they have found the secret.
What does it have to do with the discussion at hand? This is the equivalent of me bringing up tithing on a thread about tithing.
"You cannot give to God apart from giving to/through the church. "the house of God, which is the church of God, the pillar and ground of truth."
Are you speaking of the building which is institutional and has a legal structure for tax purposes
OR
the ekklesia, the called out ones, who can meet anywhere with no legal structure who are simply the Bride and who have the indwelling Holy Spirit guiding each part of the Body?
The widow's mite should never be used as an example to lower income families to throw their money into the collection plate. It was, for Jesus, not an example of faithfulness, but of the corruption of the Temple ministry and those who supervised it.
October 21, 2010 9:00 AM
Thank you, Tim! This is such a perfect example of how proof texting can be so dangerous that we are actually taught something totally opposite of what our Lord was teaching!
Sometimes, I print out the books without verse numbers or chapter breaks. I recommend everyone do this with Ephesians and 1 Timothy.
"Are you kidding? If you are not completely obedient to how God is speaking to you then you are not obedient at all. Period."
OK, remove the caveat, “to how God is speaking.” God has spoken it is his word. If you do not obey every fine point of the law then you are not obedient. There is no exclusion for “how God is speaking.”
So are you obedient to every part of the law?
So where does that lead you?
OK, Lydia, now it makes sense.
Da!
"Could the sound doctrine be ETHICAL rather than THEOLOGICAL? Could "love your enemies" be the doctrine that makes or breaks you entrance into eternity, not the virgin birth? "
Good point. One could believe in the Virgin Birth but is greedy (which is idolatrous). Believing in the Virgin birth is not going to cover you.
Think of the rich young ruler. He believed the right thing. It was not enough. His heart could not change.
OK, Lydia, now it makes sense.
Da!
October 21, 2010 5:56 PM
Notice, Jesus never talks to her and tells her that he thinks her actions are wonderful. He is teaching his disciples. Look at what comes just before that passage:
38 Then He said to them in His teaching, “Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, 39 the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”
This is why I recommend people never read a bible verse. Always read the book! Or, at the very least the whole chapter. This is why Matthew 18 is almost always taught the opposite of what it is really teaching!
Danger Will Robinson!
"I always love how those of Reformed Theology have to find a way to get into every discussion and tell all of us non-reformers how smart they are, that they have found the secret."
I read this today and it hit me right between the eyes, metaphorically speaking:
"John Wesley wrote: "It is the duty of every Arminian preacher . . . never in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach . . . and it is the duty of every Calvinist preacher . . . never . . . to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach" (Works, "from the latest London edition" [New York: Lane and Scott, 1850], V:134). To dispute this proposition would be hard." - from Arminianisms by J. I. Packer
Powerful, eh?
Sorry about the unexpected interruption, Reformers are bad folks you know.....bad to the bone, or is that bad to the heart?
Now back to the subject at hand: Tithing! Tithing is WRONG for Christians. How much clearer can one be than that? The "tithing" teaching is a heavy guilt burden laid upon the backs of suffering saints.
I think the book mentioned in the previous post You Mean I Don't Have to Tithe: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving by David A. Croteau will be a superb book and I look forward to getting a copy. Even Reformed folks can learn a thing or two, true? I bet you it is accurate and lovingly explained, giving a much needed corrective to the many who have been misled on the topic. Even to those of the "Reformed Theology" persuasion who incorrectly teach "tithing." Great mate, buddy, pal, friend, bro and so forth!
Anon 5:24
The "ekklesia" is an "assembly of called out ones."
Without the "assembling" there is no "ekklesia".
Giving to God is to be to/through the local "assembly of called out baptized believers who are in covenant with each other to carry out the great commission."
Anonymous (Oct. 21, 5:58 PM),
If the rich young ruler believed the right things, then he would have had no problem selling his possessions to follow Christ.
We have created such a dichotomy between theology and ethics. Right belief and right practices go hand in hand.
I am not saying that the Virgin Birth is not important. However, evangelicals have made it rather than the ethics of the Sermon on the Mount, the litmus test of who is Christian.
Thanks for responding to my comments.
No where does it say Jesus himself tithed.
If Jesus didn't tithe, how did he keep the law perfectly?
Matthew 17:24-27
___________________________________
The same way he "kept" the Sabbath. And those that followed the law (pharisees) wanted to kill him for what reason again? He broke the sabbath. Do you really think he kept every one of those thousands of laws made up by jewish leaders? Please read more into your proof texts.
Answer: Carpenters were not required to tithe under the law! You knew that though, didn't you?
No, all that matters is that you are obedient.
October 21, 2010 11:34 AM
___________________________________
Obedient to who? You? Benny Hinn? Some guy hired from Dallas to preach and raise money? Bob Gray? Daryl Gilyard?
Giving to God is to be to/through the local "assembly of called out baptized believers who are in covenant with each other to carry out the great commission."
October 22, 2010 9:13 AM
___________________________________
Really? What Bible are you reading? Where does it say that? Other than in staff meetings of course? :)
So are you obedient to every part of the law?
Uh, first of all, I'm not Jewish, so I am not under the law. Second of all, no one except for Christ has ever or will ever be totally obedient. That is why we all, both Jew and Gentile alike need Him. Again I ask, show me chapter and verse where God relieved the Jews from the law? Quit saying ignorant comments like "which laws are you keeping", or "are you keeping all of the law." These comments lower the conversation to the likes of a High School debate.
Obedient to who? You? Benny Hinn? Some guy hired from Dallas to preach and raise money? Bob Gray? Daryl Gilyard?
If you have to ask this stupid question, then you are one of two things. Either literally that stupid, or an angry beligerant jerk. You pick.
Do you really think he kept every one of those thousands of laws made up by jewish leaders?
He kept every law of God. Every jot and tittle. Remember, the Jews had two sets of laws. The oral law and the written law. We, as Bible students, must be careful about this.
Uh, first of all, I'm not Jewish, so I am not under the law. Second of all, no one except for Christ has ever or will ever be totally obedient. That is why we all, both Jew and Gentile alike need Him. Again I ask, show me chapter and verse where God relieved the Jews from the law? Quit saying ignorant comments like "which laws are you keeping", or "are you keeping all of the law." These comments lower the conversation to the likes of a High School debate.
October 22, 2010 3:34 PM
This brings up another interesting question. Where do Jews practice animal sacrifice today? Anyone know?
"Uh, first of all, I'm not Jewish, so I am not under the law. Second of all, no one except for Christ has ever or will ever be totally obedient. That is why we all, both Jew and Gentile alike need Him. Again I ask, show me chapter and verse where God relieved the Jews from the law?"
Well, I hate to be so obvious but Jesus was a Jew and fulfilled the law on the Cross. You can say they are technically under the law because they do not accept the Sacrifice. But, He sat at the right hand of the Father as the "High Priest". The Priests in the OT, NEVER sat down in the Holy of Holies.
On the Cross, He said "it is Finished". What do you think He was referring to?
This will help form what you understand:
Who is the last Old Covenant Prophet?
"The same way he "kept" the Sabbath. And those that followed the law (pharisees) wanted to kill him for what reason again? He broke the sabbath. Do you really think he kept every one of those thousands of laws made up by jewish leaders? Please read more into your proof texts."
24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”
25 He said, “Yes.”
And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”
26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.”
Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”
He paid the Temple tax even though the "Sons are Free" so as not to offend.
They were trying to catch Peter and Peter committed Jesus to pay.
What does it mean: The Sons are Free.
"Without the "assembling" there is no "ekklesia"."
Tell that to the Chinese Christian rotting in prison for HIS Name. The 'ekklesia' is within us because Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit to believers. And yes, where two or three are gathered, He is there. But He is there even when you are alone. If you are saved.
"Giving to God is to be to/through the local "assembly of called out baptized believers who are in covenant with each other to carry out the great commission."
Then why was Paul going all over collecting money for the Jerusalem church who was being persecuted? That was not the 'great commission'. It was helping brothers and sisters in the universal ekklesia whom they had never met and had only heard about their suffering.
"We have current Baptist leaders telling us when and how often to come to church, how much to give, and what not to drink or watch on tv and at the movies - all things we can and SHOULD figure out for ourselves as believers."
That is because pastors have sought to replace the Holy Spirit in people's lives.
Let me try this a different way. So, scripturally, what does your so called "obedience" get you?
Did Jesus keep the law when he said "It is said...BUT I tell you..." Did he take an eye for an eye? Did he observe the Sabbath?
And now that we are on the subject, you claim he is alive? Great, have him give me a call and I will become a Christian. Oh, he is not alive here, but up in heaven? So is Homer Lindsay, right. So Jesus isn't the only one still alive even though he isn't here walking around anymore?
Oh and he lives in our hearts? Really? Which ventricle? Or he is "up there looking down" really, shouldn't that be "out there in outer space?"
And the devil is "down there" in the middle of the earth's core right?
You are too funny. Think about what you are saying anon. You need to be careful when you criticize people for not being "obedient" (in bondage/slavery to?") to your little view of God.
We, as Bible students, must be careful about this.
___________________________________
I am not a Bible student. I am a child of God. I love Him and want to know him and walk with Him. I am not interested in finding and following some formula that denominational and religious leaders try to find to grow their religion. Get to know God, through Jesus Christ. Keep your B.S. about obedience among your cult like friends down at the church. God is not there and is not interested in your tripe.
"Again I ask, show me chapter and verse where God relieved the Jews from the law? Quit saying ignorant comments like "which laws are you keeping", or "are you keeping all of the law." These comments lower the conversation to the likes of a High School debate."
Let's take a brief look at facts:
Jesus came first for the Jews. Most rejected Him. After the Cross, when the law was fulfilled by Jesus as the sacrifice...what happened?
AD 70 the Temple was destroyed. The Jews went into diaspora.
Question:
If the law was still in effect for the Jews who rejected Christ, why would God allow the Temple to be destroyed since that means there is no where to provide animal sacrfice for sin. Remember, the Temple in the Holy of Holies, is where God resided in the Old Covenant.
So, the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of the law are not possible for the Jews. hmmmmmmmmmm.
God allowing the Temple to be destroyed sent a message to the Jews they did not heed.
Jon Zens has an excellent article Isreal and what it means:
http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/zens/israel.htm
The Jews are lost people. Romanticizing the Old Covenant as in Left Behind style doctrine does not help them one bit.
This brings up another interesting question. Where do Jews practice animal sacrifice today? Anyone know?
You know, you are right. The Jews are out of God's will. Good job!
Who is the last Old Covenant Prophet?
There is no "old" covenant vs. "new" covenant.
Replacement theology
"...so called "obedience"..."
Interesting. So are you saying that there is no such thing as being obedient or disobedient?
And now that we are on the subject, you claim he is alive? Great, have him give me a call and I will become a Christian.
He is calling, the problem is your answer is "No thank you".
"I am not a Bible student. I am a child of God. I love Him and want to know him and walk with Him. I am not interested in finding and following some formula that denominational and religious leaders try to find to grow their religion. Get to know God, through Jesus Christ. Keep your B.S. about obedience among your cult like friends down at the church. God is not there and is not interested in your tripe."
First of all, "true" children of God will be students of His word! If you loved Him and wanted to walk and talk with Him, you would love His Word! That tells us all we need to know about you. I am not happy, however, that you are not a child of God. I am praying for you.
"B.S." - What does this stand for, by the way?
"The Jews are lost people. Romanticizing the Old Covenant as in Left Behind style doctrine does not help them one bit."
Do you believe the promises God made to Israel still concern Israel, or do you believe they have been transferred to the church?
"The Jews are lost people. Romanticizing the Old Covenant as in Left Behind style doctrine does not help them one bit."
Do you believe the promises God made to Israel still concern Israel, or do you believe they have been transferred to the church?
October 23, 2010 10:46 PM
Do I think God transferred the land of Isreal to church to have while waiting for Jesus to come back? Strange question.
We WILL have a New Jerusalem. (see Revelation 21) but both heaven and earth will pass away when that comes.
He promised a Messiah. (even as far back as Gen 3) He kept that Promise.
"This brings up another interesting question. Where do Jews practice animal sacrifice today? Anyone know?
You know, you are right. The Jews are out of God's will. Good job!"
But it was God that allowed the Temple to be destroyed along with the Holy of Holies. Are you saying that if it stood, they SHOULD be making animal sacrifices? Are you suggesting God would also still live there? What was the Cross for? It was for the JEWS, too! I hope your "replacement theology" is not causing you to withhold witnessing to Jews.
"Who is the last Old Covenant Prophet?
There is no "old" covenant vs. "new" covenant."
The last OC Prophet was John the Baptist.
New Covenant:
Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
1 Corinthians 11:24-26
1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. 3And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2 Corinthians 3:6
who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 8:8
For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israeland with the house of Judah,
Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
“Interesting. So are you saying that there is no such thing as being obedient or disobedient?”
Hardly. More like, “There is _______ righteous, no not _____.”
The old covenant is Jesus is coming. Everything in the Old Testament points to the coming Messiah. The new covenant is Jesus has come. Everything in the New Testament points to the Messiah, Jesus, who has come!
Do I think God transferred the land of Isreal to church to have while waiting for Jesus to come back? Strange question.
You know the question! You are avoiding the answer. I'll ask another way. Do you believe that the promises made to Abraham concerning his seed are still directed towards the Jews? Do you believe that the Jews are God's chosen people? Or, do you believe that the promises made to the Jews have now been transfered over to the church? Simple questions!
I hope your "replacement theology" is not causing you to withhold witnessing to Jews.
First of all, I am not a replacement theologian, as proven by my stance that God has not done away with any aspect of His relationship with His people. They needed a perfect sacrifice, and He came in the person of Jesus Christ. Of course I witness to the Jews. They need Christ just as you and I. The Bible teaches that the Jews will come to accept Christ during the tribulation. They will become the greatest witnesses and advocates for the cause of Christ.
I did not say that a new covenant didn't exist. I said that the new covenant did not replace (vs) the old.
13. He hath made the first old. In that God calls this one new, the author concludes that God is also calling the former one old. And if it is old, it decayeth and is ready to vanish away. Even in Jeremiah’s day (ca. 600 b.c.) the Law was already regarded as old. Yet, most amazingly, the Old Covenant prophesies the new and, thus, foretells its own demise.
The relation of the New Covenant to the gentile, church-age believer is commonly viewed in several ways. First, the amillennialists believe that the church replaces Israel; and so this covenant is fulfilled by the church. A second view proposes that this covenant, like Jeremiah 31 suggests, is for the nation of Israel alone. The third view suggests that two new covenants exist: one for Israel and one for the church. In the understanding of this writer, the best view is that there is one New Covenant, which God will one day fulfill with Israel and in which the church participates soteriologically today. In other words, though the covenant is not fulfilled, Christ’s death has initiated its benefits for today for those who will some day share in its ultimate blessings when it is fulfilled with Israel. This view allows the witness of both the Old and New Testament to stand. Further, nowhere does Scripture speak of two new covenants, any more than it speaks of two old covenants. Paul was a minister to the churches of this New Covenant (II Cor 3:6). The ordinance of the Lord’s Supper that has been given to the church is based upon the sacrifice of the New Covenant—Christ’s death. Many references to the New Covenant within the New Testament clearly relate it to the church (12:23–24; I Cor 11:25; II Cor 3:6), and others also relate it to Israel (8:10; 12:23–24; Rom 11:27). As heirs of Christ’s kingdom, we partake of the New Covenant’s spiritual blessings today and in the future will share in its fulfillment with Israel. See Homer Kent, Jr., in The Epistle to the Hebrews, for a concise summary of these views (pp. 156–160).
KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994 (Heb 8:13). Thomas Nelson: Nashville
"The Bible teaches that the Jews will come to accept Christ during the tribulation. They will become the greatest witnesses and advocates for the cause of Christ."
What about the Jews who have already died?
What about the Jews who have already died?
I will answer your question with a question.
Was Abraham "saved"? If you answer that question you will have the answer to your question.
What about the Jews who have already died?
I will answer your question with a question.
Was Abraham "saved"? If you answer that question you will have the answer to your question.
October 27, 2010 12:58 PM
Abraham was saved by Faith even before the Law was in given.
I am asking about JEWS who died after the Resurrection who had heard about Jesus Christ as Messiah.
You are evading giving OC answers to a New Covenant situation. You have implied that Jews will be saved. Are you saying only a few such as the 144,000 will be given that opportunity to believe that Jesus Christ is Messiah?
You just want to play word games. Defend your position better, please.
I am asking about JEWS who died after the Resurrection who had heard about Jesus Christ as Messiah.
Simple. If they died without Christ, then hell will be their eternity. We do not know which Jews will be saved in the tribulation, we do know, however, that there will be a remnant that will be saved. This is the fulfillment of God's promise.
What about the Jews who have already died?
I will answer your question with a question.
Was Abraham "saved"? If you answer that question you will have the answer to your question.
October 27, 2010 12:58 PM
You could have given your answer here but you chose to play games with a vague answer about Abraham who died before the law and the NC.
You must be a pastor. Typical. Your ego is at stake
"I am asking about JEWS who died after the Resurrection who had heard about Jesus Christ as Messiah."
The key is those who have rejected Christ. When they accept Christ as Savior, they do not stop being Jewish. With that being said, those "...Jews who died after the resurrection who had heard about Jesus Christ as Messiah...", and accepted Him, are saved Jews eternally!
A better question is: How was Paul saved?
A better question is: How was Paul saved?
The same way all Jews that will be saved are saved. By accepting Jesus Christ as Messiah, their Lord!
I'am quite shocked at how some christians here respond to what Dr. Rogers teaches. I believe that he is simply echoing what the Bible teaches. And if i may add, all of what he have right now is of God for we have nothing that we have not received from Him. I honestly believe that Dr. Rogers ministry is being used by God mightily to spread the real gospel. I also think that we should help the church financially because we are members of such body. have you ever asked who turns the lights inside the church building, or who cleans the pews?, or where church workers get their money to feed their families?, or who pays for the water we drink inside the church? Friends, we are of one body! We are to nurture the church and help her with the burdensome of finances. I find hypocrites here who enjoy the amenities of a church, the airconditiong, the lighting, the tightly bound hymnals, but, as it seems... won't give to the church!Remember brothers, when we park our cars in the church yard, we are parking on someone else's penny!
and how dare some "brother" who hides by a silly name, call Dr. Rogers teaching a false doctrine when he himself does not expound his belief by using the bible as a standard? and instead uses his own analogy to explain why he believes so. As i read the excerpt, the message that got to me is that we get more blessings when we give, rather than when we hold back.
Dr. Adrian Rogers is long gone and cannot defend himself against critics here. But if he was alive I know for certain that most of you couldn't hold a candle when he speaks. He is a blessed man of God who has brought thousands of souls to the feet of Jesus through the Gospel that he preached!
God bless Dr. Adrian Rogers for through his teachings of the Bible, I have been edified...
We all dispute this simple matter when the fact remains that a multitude of lost people have been brought to Christ,through Gospel messages on the pulpit, radio or the internet with which the tithes we give to the church are responsible for! Do not forsake the Ministry of Giving!
Friends, if there was only one soul that the Gospel could reach with the help of my tithes throughout my life, I will still gladly give so.
The problem with the writer's response to Dr. Rogers' message is that he misunderstands the purpose of the tithe. God doesn't need our money. He simply wants us to realize that we should not depend upon our ability to provide for ourselves. Your position epitomizes the Christian-Humanist position.
Amen!
What makes these "incredibly difficult times?" Perhaps Islam, homosexuality would be two examples. Whatever you are keeping, I seriously doubt it is the faith delivered to the saints based upon your comment.
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