"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Wednesday, October 13, 2010

One Conservative Pastor Who Calls for Transparency

William Thornton is a conservative SBC pastor who used to be one of the moderators at the Baptist Life discussion forum. He now writes his own blog, "SBC Plodder".

William is one of the few SBC pastors - the only one that I'm aware of - that openly calls for transparency of financial matters in the SBC. He has written on this multiple times, most recently concerning compensation for Kevin Ezell, recently appointed as president of NAMB. William calls for Ezell to establish a culture of transparency in the wake of financial waste and terrible leadership for the past decade at that missionsary agency.

This morning, William refers to a report that the president of Dallas Baptist University earns over $850,000 (DBU school has an enrollment of about 5000 students), while in comparison the president of the University of Georgia, a public institution with over 35,000 students earns about $650,000 per year. (go here to read more about the DBU president compensation if interested).

And William makes the point once again: what is so wrong with demanding transparency from the leaders of the SBC that earn a living off of the Cooperative Program dollars given by SBC churches?

And I say, what is so wrong with mega church members, demanding complete transparency from their churches on what their mega church pastor earns in total compensation, including salary, housing allowance, car allowance, all the other allowances, deferred compensation, and honoria and gifts?

As William says this morning:
"Who would be harmed if full disclosure, like public corporations and universities, were the rule? Would our CEOs [or our mega church pastors, William] be harmed? The only way I can see that they would be harmed is if they were grossly overpaid, an assumption I have never made about any of our SBC people."
I am glad that at least one SBC pastor dares to call for transparency.

Thanks, William.

104 comments:

Anonymous said...

The irony to me is that these greedy pastors like Brunson and Gaines are fearful that if their true total compensation was known, giving would go down and they would have to take pay cuts for themselves or at least their paid family and friends. My guess is the opposite would happen. Soud and the trustees would stand up and say the president of DBU makes $850,000 and the prez of Georgia makes $650,000 and they don't have as many members as we do. Our poor pastor is "one of the least paid megas" and "doesn't make anywhere near $300,000" and doesn't make "as much as you think he does" and then they could guilt us all into showing our love and appreciation for god's man by paying him MORE than these guys. After all, if the secular world pays $650,000 to its leader, shouldn't we as Christians pay more than that to God's man?

And then once one of the megas publicized their total package as over $500,000, it would be even easier to say "well, Brother Gaines makes $500,000, shouldn't Mac be making at least as much as him" and so on.

Come on guys. Disclose those salaries and benefits so we can justify paying you much more! Or do you lack faith to do so?

Anonymous said...

I have no problem with the church knowing what we as pastors make in terms of salary, allowances, reimbursements, etc... The only thing I would disagree with is gifts. If someone gives me a gift personally, then I don't see how that is anyone's business. Just my opinion.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I would say gifts too need to be disclosed, at least over a certain threshold. Companies require this of their employees (they actually prohibit accepting of gifts usually, over a certain prescribed amount) so employees can't be bought by vendors or suppliers or customers.

We have disclosure requirements as well for public officials, with criminal penalties for failure to disclose. Ask the ex-Senator from Alaska about those rules.

Shouldn't pastors welcome scrutiny of their compensation, especially considering it is coming from people who believe they are giving their money to God, especially when the guys receiving the money are the ones telling them that "God requires" them to give it?

Anonymous said...

Yes, pastors should be transparent in what the church professionally provides for them. But a personal gift is a personal gift. It is not through the church and thus should not have to be disclosed. If the pastor wants to voluntarily disclose that personal gift fine. But he should not have to.
Pastors deserve some privacy. I know many on this blog don't believe that and that is sad. A pastor lives under a big enough microscope as it is. Let him have some degree of life that he can have some privacy as long as in that privacy he does not abuse the church. If he abuses the church then I would agree that his privacy goes out the window.
There are people in the church that sometimes simply want to be generous to their pastor out of love for him and they don't want everyone knowing about it. Tell me what is wrong with that? Nothing.

Ben said...

A pastor should disclose to those who give what he earns. A pastor who receives a gift (no matter the amount) is responsible to the IRS, not the church.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ben - you are wrong. No where is this the standard, not in American culture, not in the Bible.

I thought pastors were accountable not to the government, but to God, and therefore to the church.

But when it comes to gifts, no, only to the IRS are pastors accountable. Love that line.

That makes no sense. The CEO of the Red Cross accepts a huge gift from one of its donors for no other reason than he/she IS the CEO, and he/she is not accountable to the Red Cross for accepting a large gift, even though they receive generous compensation? They are not supposed to disclose that to the organization?

If the pastor gets a large gift from a family member, of course, no one's business but maybe the IRS.

But if the pastor gets a gift precisely because they have the title "pastor", then they should disclose that to the church that he is accountable to.

Perhaps the best way to deal with this in the church is to establish a clear policy for all employees, including the pastor, as to what gifts are or are not acceptable.

If a Senior Pastor accepts a six-figure gift from a wealthy church member, is it then ok for a lowly youth pastor to accept a six-figure gift from one of the dad's of the kids in his youth group? For some reason, I don't see the Senior Pastor as liking that scenario, and I don't think the Senior Pastor will accept the youth pastor's explanation that it is "none of his business" or "ain't God good", etc.

X Baptist said...

It is not just Pastors of Mega Churches that are not transparent when it comes to compensation and benefits. Many go to or stay at small churches in order to stay hidden. Why do you think they stay at these under 1000 member churches.

They get cozy with the powerful members of that community and church over the years and pretty much get what they want.

I believe that if the SBC and or State Conventions required ministers to limit their time at a certain church, (say 5 years) it would make the church become transparent because there would not be enough time to get cozy with those seeking that pat on the back and all those favors.

Why hide Gifts? Because these Pastors want to know who they can go to when it comes to seeking financial gains.

Ever notice how Pastors never "hangout" with the poor in a church. It is always with the ones who can do something for them financially.

Why do you think they call it 1st Baptist? The Baptist minister knows that term "1st Baptist" is the secret to that paycheck, and all the small towns have one which is where all the "hobnobbers" attend. These ministers know where to "apply" for THE job to get to THE top.

But then there are those that say all "1st Baptist" churches are nothing more than country clubs and look for "abused" churches and take advantage of them.

Vultures are everywhere.

Anonymous said...

WD,
Your view on this is simply wrong and it is selfish as your desire is merely to see to that a pastor simply cannot have a life. A gift is a gift period. If the pastor receives a gift that is not filtered through the church then that is his business.
In your scenario regarding the youth minister and the pastor. The pastor can not like it all he wants but if that is a personal gift to the youth minister then it is what it is and the pastor should accept that.
For the record, the scenarios you come up with at times are a bit far fetched.

Anonymous said...

Amen.

Louis

Lydia said...

"Yes, pastors should be transparent in what the church professionally provides for them. But a personal gift is a personal gift. It is not through the church and thus should not have to be disclosed. If the pastor wants to voluntarily disclose that personal gift fine. But he should not have to."

Ask yourself this: Did I get the gift BECAUSE I am a pastor? The answer is almost always yes unless it is a gift from family members.

or better yet, let others ask. You could not be objective.

"Pastors deserve some privacy. I know many on this blog don't believe that and that is sad. A pastor lives under a big enough microscope as it is. Let him have some degree of life that he can have some privacy as long as in that privacy he does not abuse the church. If he abuses the church then I would agree that his privacy goes out the window.
There are people in the church that sometimes simply want to be generous to their pastor out of love for him and they don't want everyone knowing about it. Tell me what is wrong with that? Nothing."

You sound a lot like Hollywood actors. They want a "public life" on their terms. They get on stages and infront of cameras and all is ok but then complain about their privacy being violated.

Tip: If you want a private life then do not be a traditional pastor in the institutional church. You are being paid to be a "public person".

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - I'm truly sad that your view is what it is. While I do understand the pastor has a right to his privacy, we're talking here about gifts that are NOT private. It is not a private gift when he earns an income from the church, and then accepts a sizeable gift from a donor of the church because of his position in the church! The pastor should either agree to make that public as a check on his motives and the motive of the giver, or he can simply refuse the gift and encourage the person to give the gift to the church.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And I'll add: the reason that government and corporations have rules on gifts, their size and disclosure, is not to pry into the private lives of people, it is...get this....TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM GIVING GIFTS TO THESE POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Much trouble will be avoided, and a greater use of God's resources (God owns it all, remember?) will occur when we discourage these kinds of gifts by requiring their disclosure, or just establishing a clear policy prohibitint their acceptance as a condition of employment.

Ben said...

Dog,

I am not wrong.

"I thought pastors were accountable not to the government..."

I don't know who made the first statement you make. Do you think preachers should not pay taxes? I don't think so. They are accountable to the government.

Of course you agree with me when you say:

"If the pastor gets a large gift from a family member, of course, no one's business but maybe the IRS."

" but to God, and therefore to the church."

Oh, I'd love to see where scriptural support where the pastor is accountable to the church? Please do tell. To God, absolutely but I am waiting with baited breath to see where they are responsible to the church. Maybe for the church but show me where they are too the church.

If I give my youth pastor a six figure gift it is not the pastors business. If he thinks it is I'll talk to him about it.

it matters not what title one carries in the church, a personal gift is a personal gift.

Do you believe the church should be run like the Red Cross? Then let's let Mac be the CEO you don't want him to be.

Somebodies nuts and it ain't me.

Anonymous said...

A church is either transparent with it's finances or it is not. The "gift is private" argument is a loop-hole. It allows the church to claim to be transparent when it really isn't. That's why the government doesn't allow it in other non-profits.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ben - yes, the pastor is accountable to the church. Most of them have a board of trustees, and they can fire the man. He is accountable to the church legally, and just plain common sense says that a man who makes a comfortable living off the generous gifts of people, that he is accountable to them.

Sorry that offends, and sorry I don't have a bible verse to give you, but I'm sure that wouldn't make any difference in your view anyways.

I hope and pray your view is not the prevailing view of ministers, that any gifts any time of any size between any ministers and any people in the church are not of any concern to the church. Dangerous stuff. I'm glad our politicians and our corporations aren't as gullible as you are.

Anonymous said...

Man I am glad many of you aren't in my congregation. You are dissenters and dividers and hate mongers with a desire of nothing more than making the life of a pastor unbearable and unlivable. Shame on you!

Anonymous said...

"Somebodies nuts and it ain't me."

I wouldn't be so sure.

Ben said...

A personal gift has nothing to do with the transparency of the church.

William said...

While I have always been open and transparent about my compensation as a pastor (not that I have a choice, we just believe that members have a right to know where their gifts are being spent), I don't argue that a local church may not act otherwise.

In our cooperative SBC work, sure, trustees have the legal right to maintain secrecy with respect to compensation, employment contracts and the like. I just don't see the sense in it nor benefit for such behavior.

I haven't demanded anything of Kevin Ezell or anyone else. I just suggest that we are all helped by openness and transparency. I confess to not understanding why it is a problem to some of my SBC brethren for any of us to respectfully ask question and make suggestions.

Anonymous said...

"Man I am glad many of you aren't in my congregation. You are dissenters and dividers and hate mongers with a desire of nothing more than making the life of a pastor unbearable and unlivable. Shame on you!"

Thanks for your:
non-dissenting, non-dividing, and non-hateful comment.

Any unscrupulous pastor would love to have you as a member.

Ben said...

"Ever notice how Pastors never "hangout" with the poor in a church. It is always with the ones who can do something for them financially."

My pastor hangs out with me and I have very little. I can't afford golf or theme parks like some of our other members do. I never let my pastor pay my way to anything. If I can't afford it, I don't go. There have been times my pastor chose not to go because I couldn't.

Yeah, my unscrupulous pastor is waiting for me to cash in on the rich uncle I don't have.

Where do y'all come up with this stuff.

"They want a "public life" on their terms."

You want the private lives of others on your terms.

"Sorry that offends, and sorry I don't have a bible verse to give you, but I'm sure that wouldn't make any difference in your view anyways."

It doesn't offend me. Why should you being wrong offend me.

In my view? I asked for scriptural support to see your view. There is no scriptural support for your position on this. That's why your view is wrong. So my view agrees with scripture.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ben - yes they do.

Anonymous said...

WD,
Guess what? You are not always right. I know, I know. Hard to believe.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I agree, I'm not always right. But I enjoy arguing my point here until you persuade me that I'm wrong.

Lydia said...

A personal gift has nothing to do with the transparency of the church.

October 13, 2010 11:58 AM

Ben, why not make the argument instead of making pedantic statements?

Are you seperating the "pastor" and his behavior from the church? That would be an interesting perspective and perhaps we should delve into that.

But first lets think about these scenerios:

Would your above statement be true if the gift were a nice piece of land as a gift from a wealthy church member?

Would your statement above be true if the gift were a free private box at the new stadium from a well known businessman who sporadically attends your church?

Would the statement be true if a local dealer who attends your church gave you a brand new car? You only had to pay the tax?

These are all situations I am familiar with that really happened. Thing is, a handful of people went to lots of trouble to keep it quiet. Why? If it is no big deal?

Lydia said...

In my view? I asked for scriptural support to see your view. There is no scriptural support for your position on this. That's why your view is wrong. So my view agrees with scripture.

October 13, 2010 12:07 PM

Ben, there is NO scriptural support for the traditional man made "role" of pastor so your question is moot.

Where can you show me in the NT that we are sit in pews facing forward and listen to ONE GUY preach week after week from a stage?

So, here is one for you. Can you show me where Paul took a free villa from Nicodemous? John a free Chariot from Diotrephes?

Anonymous said...

"My pastor hangs out with me and I have very little."

I can believe it considering how much time you spend posting comments on this blog.

"Yeah, my unscrupulous pastor is waiting for me to cash in on the rich uncle I don't have."

He's not worried about you. He already has you brainwashed so that you believe in a non-existent NT tithe.

"In my view? I asked for scriptural support to see your view. There is no scriptural support for your position on this. That's why your view is wrong. So my view agrees with scripture."

And what scripture is that?

Anonymous said...

WD,
That's your problem. You can't be persuaded because in your mind you are always right. Most people find no interest in slamming there head into a wall.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I'll use some of my favorite pastor quotes:

"You might disagree with me, and that is fine, as you have a right to be wrong"

"In my humble, but accurate opinion...."

:)

Ben said...

"Are you seperating the "pastor" and his behavior from the church? That would be an interesting perspective and perhaps we should delve into that."

What behavior? What sin is a pastor committing for receiving a gift of any kind. Who gets to set the size of gift? I don't trust anyone on this forum to make such a decision, too many here are preacher haters.

"But first lets think about these scenerios:

Would your above statement be true if the gift were a nice piece of land as a gift from a wealthy church member?"

Yes!

"Would your statement above be true if the gift were a free private box at the new stadium from a well known businessman who sporadically attends your church?"

Yes!

"Would the statement be true if a local dealer who attends your church gave you a brand new car? You only had to pay the tax?"

Yes!

"Thing is, a handful of people went to lots of trouble to keep it quiet. Why? If it is no big deal?"

They probably went to a lot of trouble to it keep quiet because of trouble makers who want to use any advantage they can come up with to spur on the masses to remain divided. Plus it is none of your business.

How fr would you go to keep the pastor of churches from disclosing what you and others give to the church. Don't Political parties have to divulge their givers and the amount given?

Oh, that only works when it helps you make a case against the pastor.

Ben said...

"Ben, there is NO scriptural support for the traditional man made "role" of pastor so your question is moot."

The bible speaks clearly to elders (overseers) in the church and also to them being paid.

"Where can you show me in the NT that we are sit in pews facing forward and listen to ONE GUY preach week after week from a stage?"

You can sit anyway you want, I don't care. Titus was sent to Crete to pastor/preach (see Jude). Did Paul get it wrong?

"So, here is one for you. Can you show me where Paul took a free villa from Nicodemous? John a free Chariot from Diotrephes?"

Just because they didn't take one doesn't make it wrong? Can you show me where it was offered and they refused it?

Don't add to what we have and you will do better.

Anonymous said...

Ben - Planter's called.

johnthebaptist said...

X Baptist said...
It is not just Pastors of Mega Churches that are not transparent when it comes to compensation and benefits. Many go to or stay at small churches in order to stay hidden. Why do you think they stay at these under 1000 member churches.

They get cozy with the powerful members of that community and church over the years and pretty much get what they want.

I believe that if the SBC and or State Conventions required ministers to limit their time at a certain church, (say 5 years) it would make the church become transparent because there would not be enough time to get cozy with those seeking that pat on the back and all those favors.

Why hide Gifts? Because these Pastors want to know who they can go to when it comes to seeking financial gains.

Ever notice how Pastors never "hangout" with the poor in a church. It is always with the ones who can do something for them financially.

Why do you think they call it 1st Baptist? The Baptist minister knows that term "1st Baptist" is the secret to that paycheck, and all the small towns have one which is where all the "hobnobbers" attend. These ministers know where to "apply" for THE job to get to THE top.

But then there are those that say all "1st Baptist" churches are nothing more than country clubs and look for "abused" churches and take advantage of them.

Vultures are everywhere.


Hoo boy....I am almost speachless.
Where do people get this stuff?

I never heard of preachers hiding out at churchs with less than 1000 members so they can hobknob with the rich folks of that church. If you believe that, you have obviously not worked in a SBC church. While it can happen, it is not the norm.
How does "X" know the pastor doesn't hang with the poor? Did this person make this observation while he was hanging with the poor?

The average length a pastor at a SBC church is 2 1/2 years so your 5 year term limit wouldn't work well. Besides, the SBC or state conventions don't hire or control the ministers. It is between God and the congregation. You lose out there too buddy.

I was a pastor at a 1st Baptist in a small town and boy did I rake in the cash!!! $150.00 a week!! woo hoo...were in the money! You hit the nail on the head with that gem "X" ol' buddy! What a country club I pastored! I hobknobed with all the rich retirees. Most were on fixed income but that didn't bother me, no sir. As long as that big pay check kept coming, we were good.
Did you skip the part in the bible about wolves coming in sheeps clothing?
Yes, vultures are everywhere....so are bird brains.

johnthebaptist said...

X Baptist said...
It is not just Pastors of Mega Churches that are not transparent when it comes to compensation and benefits. Many go to or stay at small churches in order to stay hidden. Why do you think they stay at these under 1000 member churches.

They get cozy with the powerful members of that community and church over the years and pretty much get what they want.

I believe that if the SBC and or State Conventions required ministers to limit their time at a certain church, (say 5 years) it would make the church become transparent because there would not be enough time to get cozy with those seeking that pat on the back and all those favors.

Why hide Gifts? Because these Pastors want to know who they can go to when it comes to seeking financial gains.

Ever notice how Pastors never "hangout" with the poor in a church. It is always with the ones who can do something for them financially.

Why do you think they call it 1st Baptist? The Baptist minister knows that term "1st Baptist" is the secret to that paycheck, and all the small towns have one which is where all the "hobnobbers" attend. These ministers know where to "apply" for THE job to get to THE top.

But then there are those that say all "1st Baptist" churches are nothing more than country clubs and look for "abused" churches and take advantage of them.

Vultures are everywhere.


Hoo boy....I am almost speachless.
Where do people get this stuff?

I never heard of preachers hiding out at churchs with less than 1000 members so they can hobknob with the rich folks of that church. If you believe that, you have obviously not worked in a SBC church. While it can happen, it is not the norm.
How does "X" know the pastor doesn't hang with the poor? Did this person make this observation while he was hanging with the poor?

The average length a pastor at a SBC church is 2 1/2 years so your 5 year term limit wouldn't work well. Besides, the SBC or state conventions don't hire or control the ministers. It is between God and the congregation. You lose out there too buddy.

I was a pastor at a 1st Baptist in a small town and boy did I rake in the cash!!! $150.00 a week!! woo hoo...were in the money! You hit the nail on the head with that gem "X" ol' buddy! What a country club I pastored! I hobknobed with all the rich retirees. Most were on fixed income but that didn't bother me, no sir. As long as that big pay check kept coming, we were good.
Did you skip the part in the bible about wolves coming in sheeps clothing?
Yes, vultures are everywhere....so are bird brains.

X Baptist said...

John the Baptist;

Typical Baptist Preacher,
Go back and read what I said...you twisted words and took a "buffet" approach to what I said. You just Picked a word here picked a word there and made up a smorgasbord of deception.

The bottom line is again it is not all pastors that have this approach...it is your greedy.

Go back and read it one more time so you can stop being speechless and make a common comment without your buffet approach

Anonymous said...

Don't you just feel the LOVE from John the Baptist....

Got to love these Baptist Preachers - AKA hypocrites

Anonymous said...

Anyone else having a hard time believing that JTB was ever a pastor?

Ben said...

"Planter's called."


If you answered, they got the right number.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ben, I disagee with you on all of this discussion, but dang if that is not a great comeback on the Planter's comment. Good job.

Anonymous said...

Ben: they called asking for you (I guess I should have made that more clear considering you are only a legume). They were wondering how you were able to get out of the can.

Ben said...

Do you want to know what LAME looks like:

"Ben: they called asking for you (I guess I should have made that more clear considering you are only a legume). They were wondering how you were able to get out of the can."

Lynn said...

For me, it was disillusioning (if that's a word)to find out that pastors get lots of perks. It detracted greatly from their message.

It made the job of pastor (although I'm sure quite stressful in some ways)look like a cushy set-up-rather than a man who's noticably more Christ-like.

I think these things about getting gifts, etc. are hidden because they simply wouldn't look too good.

I don't know. It just feels like there's something wrong with a wealthy pastor telling people to be like Jesus. It just doesn't seem to go together. Their perks and wealth negate the message.

Maybe pastors need to be more forth-coming with what it's like to be a pastor. They could tell all the very hard parts that people don't fully appreciate AND tell about all the perks also that most people don't know about.

They could be honest about stuff like pastors' conferences, seminars, etc., holy land trips. Are these things so very holy,or are they actually fun trips? It's the pretending that bothers me.

WishIhadknown said...

To me, the very first question in this discussion is: Is it acceptable or appropriate for the church, clergy, other church officials and church leadership to follow lower ethical standards than the ethical standard and policies followed by the world?

This discussion is not so much rooted in scripture as it is in principles established in scripture. For instance, you will not find “thou shalt not speed” in scripture but you will find a principle about submitting to those in authority.

So first question, is it acceptable or appropriate for the church, clergy, other church officials and church leadership to follow lower ethical standards than the ethical standard and policies followed by the world?

Answers please.

WishIhadknown said...

"Hoo boy....I am almost speachless.
Where do people get this stuff?"

Generally, they've and we've been hurt.

WishIhadknown said...

Speaking of Planters:
When you’re feeling down and a little blue, look at an oak tree and see what one little nut can do!

WishIhadknown said...

Ben, regarding your answers about the gifts to pastors, if you did those things in Corporate or Public employment without disclosing and receiving permission, you would at the very least be fired and in all likelihood end up in jail.

Lydia said...

"What behavior? What sin is a pastor committing for receiving a gift of any kind. Who gets to set the size of gift? I don't trust anyone on this forum to make such a decision, too many here are preacher haters."

And we do not trust all pastors to make the right decision because as we have seen, it is a huge sin trap for them and they start seeing themselves as "set apart", special and for some reason having some special "anointing" others in the Body do not have.

They start seeing themselves as somehow deserving of special gifts that other's aren't.

Only those that follow men instead of Christ cannot see the inherent problems here.

Anonymous said...

"Do you want to know what LAME looks like:"

If you looked in the mirror, you got the right answer.

Lydia said...

"The bible speaks clearly to elders (overseers) in the church and also to them being paid."

That passage is about "honor" not money. If it is about money then who gets paid "single honor"? The music director? :o)

(The ox is a metaphor for giving honor as a wage)

Paul said he GAVE. Have you ever read Acts 20? Most pastors don't like to quote it. It does not benefit them at all. They might have to go out and make tents! :o)

"ou can sit anyway you want, I don't care. Titus was sent to Crete to pastor/preach (see Jude). Did Paul get it wrong?"

Where does it say in "Jude" that Titus was sent to pastor in Crete? Or did you mean the book of Titus?

How long was Titus in Crete? How long had the church been there before he went back? What makes you think he was a "pastor" in the man made traditional sense? Titus was an itinerant worker like Timothy.

Frankly, we do not know the names of elders or pastors in the churches except maybe Diotrephes and that is not good. If they are so important and set apart, why aren't all the Epistles addressed to those special set apart people in the Body? It makes no sense. Instead Paul addressed the entire Body in most of his "church" letters. He gives counsel and instructions for EVERYONE IN THE BODY. He does nto give the instructions for the pastor or elder to carry out. He gives the church planters/itinerant workers instructions but they are not going to stay in those churches forever.

Anonymous said...

Do you want to know what LAME looks like?

Yeah, it looks like your comments on this post.

WishIhadknown said...

When I was still a young man and had started my first job, I traveled a lot. At that time, an airline was handing out $50 vouchers for future travel. We all thought great, free trip for our vacation! Yea! I gave mine to my girlfriend because she needed it for a trip. Others used the voucher for personal trips as well. No problem, right? Does anybody see anything wrong? Very much like frequent flier miles today, right?

Well, a couple of months later a memo came out. If you received a voucher you are to turn it in.

Ouch.

I got in more trouble than you can believe, almost to the point of losing my job. It was not the $50 that mattered even though I paid it; it was the fact that I accepted something as an employee of the company and did not report it or turn it over to the company.

The Manager of Accounts Payable, who also was an older brother in Christ, sat me down and explained. You have a position for which you receive a salary to which you have agreed; it is fair and reasonable. Therefore, if in the course of your employment you receive a gift, tip or gratuity, you should consider that to be the Company’s, not yours and you should turn it in to the Company.

He went on to explain, what you do and how you conduct yourself, defines your character and likewise defines you and to the world your character defines Christ to them. In short, your character is also your witness.

Even today many years later to certain people I am still known as the guy who gave his $50 voucher to his girlfriend.

Today they mean it to be funny but it still hurts to know one careless act by me has defined who I am to these people.

Ben said...

Anon - If that's the best you can do you ought to stay at home and not play with the big boys.

;-)

Anonymous said...

I agree with the person who wrote this on the previous story:

"Ben - you sound like you are an unpopular person who wishes he were popular."

johnthebaptist said...

Anonymous said...
Don't you just feel the LOVE from John the Baptist....

Got to love these Baptist Preachers - AKA hypocrites

-------------

Anonymous said...
Anyone else having a hard time believing that JTB was ever a pastor?


Anon #1 --- I may have been unloving, sorry about that, but I don't think you will be my roll model there.

Anon #2 --- Hee hee... I imagine you have trouble believing a lot of things, unless of course He would show you the nail scars in His hands,and the wound in His side. Hummmm....seems like there was someone else who didn't believe either. in

Anonymous said...

"Anon - If that's the best you can do you ought to stay at home and not play with the big boys."

Wow - that is hilarious coming from someone getting crushed so badly in this forum. LOL!

Anon was right:
"If you are not one already, you should become a pastor. Instant popularity, instantly loved by the flock, then you can bully all those people that used to pick on you in high school."

Anonymous said...

"If that's the best you can do you ought to stay at home and not play with the big boys."

Yes, because you have shown great maturity and wisdom in your comments.

johnthebaptist said...

WishIhadknown said...
"Hoo boy....I am almost speachless.
Where do people get this stuff?"

Generally, they've and we've been hurt.

___________

I can see that by so many of the peoples responses. You can usually tell the people who have been hurt and have an axe to grind. I just wish they wouldn't take it out on all preachers.

I have been hurt too so I understand.

We need to stop putting preachers and anyone else on pedestals and keep our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Anonymous said...

"Anon #2 --- Hee hee... I imagine you have trouble believing a lot of things, unless of course He would show you the nail scars in His hands,and the wound in His side. Hummmm....seems like there was someone else who didn't believe either. in"

Are you seriously comparing a person questioning a pastor's credentials who exhibits immature and mean-spirited behavior to doubting the resurrection of Christ?

You have been officially crowned "the king of bad analogies."

Congratulations

Anonymous said...

"We need to stop putting preachers and anyone else on pedestals and keep our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith."

Well said.
Not hypocritical at all.

Anonymous said...

"So they can't be bought by vendors or suppliers or customers."

Tom, you and all of the rest of the folks here act like a Pastor has some type of influence like politicians, judges, or other type of federal, state, local or other types of people.

This whole thing of trying to link personal gifts to a pastor like it would be with the other institutions you mention is way off base.

What would anyone accomplish or even hope to receive by gifting a pastor something? What influence are they buying? A little prayer to God?

And don't give me the crap about free advertising of the gifters sons building company. That dog won't hunt and we both know it. At the time that was mentioned it had nothing to do with the construction company except for the fact that they honored the Sabbath in their company.

There is no pastor anywhere that any reasonable person would think there is something to gain by "buying their influence!"

Well, maybe in Bell, California might be the only example that you might come up with since the pastor was bi-vocational.

Anonymous said...

Lydia says; "there is NO scriptural support for the traditional man made "role" of pastor"

And the same can be said of your alleged vocation as an "EVANGELIST".

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - I think your position is completely naive.

Mega churches have large amounts of money flowing through them, they start large capital projects that require funding and contractors and engineers. Their membership does include very influential people - just look at First Baptist Jax. There is plenty of opportunity for monkey business when it comes to glad handing and gifts and favors. Do we even have to explain this? Financial shenanigans go on all the time in churches involving pastors. The church should implement similar policies to prevent waste of money through gifts given directly to any staff member.

And I'll direct you to one example: a woman who received a large inheritance gave large amounts of it to the First Baptist Church of West Palm Beach, and the woman was not of completely sound mind and her family sued the church to retrieve some of that money. Read the deposition of one of the ministers who received a huge monetary gift from this person. I did, and it made my stomach turn. It happens.

And human nature being what it is, a church needs to be on guard and should seek to prevent every possible misue of the ministry and its resources and its name.

It isn't just about buying power and influence. It is about proper use of ministry dollars. A pastor who is required to not accept large gifts from even well-meaning church members, can instead encourage that person to do something meaningful with the gift, like donating it to the church or a local ministry.

WishIhadknown said...

“What would anyone accomplish or even hope to receive by gifting a pastor something? What influence are they buying?”

What are they buying? Power, prestige, influence, position, recognition, intimacy.

Do you really think pastors in churches are powerless? Why else will all of the politicians be lining up to make appearances at all of the important churches over the next four weeks? Do you honestly think they’re coming to hear the sermons?

It’s like the guy at the Clinton impeachment hearing answered when he was asked if he thought his million dollar contribution to Clinton’s campaign would gain him any influence. He answered “Of course I did, why else would I five that much money to him?”

If someone gives you something because of your position regardless of if it’s in the church or anywhere, it’s not a gift.

Let me ask you, would you make the same gift to Mary sitting in the pew?

johnthebaptist said...

Anon said....Are you seriously comparing a person questioning a pastor's credentials who exhibits immature and mean-spirited behavior to doubting the resurrection of Christ?

______

See, here is a prime example of you reading into something that wasn't not intended.

It seems to me that if you judge that I am not a pastor by what I say...I was wondering what you will say to Jesus by what He has said?

It seems to be ok for your to say what you want, any way you want to say it but let a preacher say something and it is " immature and mean-spirited behavior".

Please remove the log in your own eye before crowning me anything.

I guess you are correct in accessing my behavior in my responses but it seems that you are no better. Stinks being a sinner, huh?

johnthebaptist said...

John the Baptist;

Typical Baptist Preacher,
Go back and read what I said...you twisted words and took a "buffet" approach to what I said. You just Picked a word here picked a word there and made up a smorgasbord of deception.

The bottom line is again it is not all pastors that have this approach...it is your greedy.

Go back and read it one more time so you can stop being speechless and make a common comment without your buffet approach

------

Well X, I took your advise and reread your post. I sure didn't mean to twist words and take "buffet" approach and I sure didn't mean to "make up a smorgasbord of deception".

After reading my response...I didn't do any of that.

However, it seems that you are the one who is making up a smorgasbord of deception.

You say many go to stay at small churchers in order to stay hidden.
You are wrong.

You said:They get cozy with powerful members of that community & church & get what they want.

Possible but not very likely. Really you have NO proof.

You said:SBC and/or state conventions require ministers to limit their time at a certain church.

Again, no possible because the don't control ministers.

You said: ever notice how pastors never hangout with the poor in a church. It is always the ones who can do something for them financially.

You have included all pastors in YOUR statement. No twisting from me here.
I am amazed that you have seen this in all pastors. Why, I never noticed you were watching me! Who is the deceiver now?

You said: Why do you think they call it 1st Baptist?The bapitst minister know that term 1st baptist is the secret to that paycheck and all the small thowns have one which is where all the hobnobbers attend. These ministers know where to apply for THE job to get to the top.

1) in the ministry, there ISN'T a top to get to. Jesus is Lord so other than trying to be like Him, there isn't a position I have get that he hasn't already given me as a child of God.
2) You generalized again so it seems you were deceptive and not me. You seem to know everything about big money at churches that go by the name of 1st Baptist. How arrogant is that?

You said: There are those that say "all 1st Baptist churches are nothing more than country clubs and look for abused churches and take advantage of them"

Do you know those people who said this personally? Does that mean they are correct? NO! You put a statement out there like that like it is the truth and in reality, it is far from the truth.

So please, don't accuse me of picking a word here and there, then twisting words to make up a smorgasbord of deception.

It is you is is deceived and spreading your deception.

You said: Go back and read it one more time so you can stop being speechless and make a common comment without your buffet approach

1) Please go back and read my response yourself. I said that I am ALMOST speachless. Please stop twisting my words and trying to deceive the readers.

2)I would make a "common comment" but I am not sure what that means.


I don't know who hurt you so badly but I sure do pray God will heal you.

WishIhadknown said...

Ever hear of the Dale Carnegie course. It’s a training program for sales and business people. My father attended one in the 40’s. In the course, they told them to be successful join the biggest most influential church in town. Doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with them, pretend. Always go along with the crowd and support the pastor. And every Sunday, shake the pastor’s hand and press a new $5 bill in it.

johnthebaptist said...

John the Baptist;

Typical Baptist Preacher,
Go back and read what I said...you twisted words and took a "buffet" approach to what I said. You just Picked a word here picked a word there and made up a smorgasbord of deception.

The bottom line is again it is not all pastors that have this approach...it is your greedy.

Go back and read it one more time so you can stop being speechless and make a common comment without your buffet approach

------

Well X, I took your advise and reread your post. I sure didn't mean to twist words and take "buffet" approach and I sure didn't mean to "make up a smorgasbord of deception".

After reading my response...I didn't do any of that.

However, it seems that you are the one who is making up a smorgasbord of deception.

You say many go to stay at small churchers in order to stay hidden.
You are wrong.

You said:They get cozy with powerful members of that community & church & get what they want.

Possible but not very likely. Really you have NO proof.

You said:SBC and/or state conventions require ministers to limit their time at a certain church.

Again, no possible because the don't control ministers.

You said: ever notice how pastors never hangout with the poor in a church. It is always the ones who can do something for them financially.

You have included all pastors in YOUR statement. No twisting from me here.
I am amazed that you have seen this in all pastors. Why, I never noticed you were watching me! Who is the deceiver now?

You said: Why do you think they call it 1st Baptist?The bapitst minister know that term 1st baptist is the secret to that paycheck and all the small thowns have one which is where all the hobnobbers attend. These ministers know where to apply for THE job to get to the top.

1) in the ministry, there ISN'T a top to get to. Jesus is Lord so other than trying to be like Him, there isn't a position I have get that he hasn't already given me as a child of God.
2) You generalized again so it seems you were deceptive and not me. You seem to know everything about big money at churches that go by the name of 1st Baptist. How arrogant is that?

You said: There are those that say "all 1st Baptist churches are nothing more than country clubs and look for abused churches and take advantage of them"

Do you know those people who said this personally? Does that mean they are correct? NO! You put a statement out there like that like it is the truth and in reality, it is far from the truth.

So please, don't accuse me of picking a word here and there, then twisting words to make up a smorgasbord of deception.

It is you is is deceived and spreading your deception.

You said: Go back and read it one more time so you can stop being speechless and make a common comment without your buffet approach

1) Please go back and read my response yourself. I said that I am ALMOST speachless. Please stop twisting my words and trying to deceive the readers.

2)I would make a "common comment" but I am not sure what that means.


I don't know who hurt you so badly but I sure do pray God will heal you.

Anonymous said...

Lydia,
Pastors are set apart and have an anointing. You can deny this all you want to but it is true. Deal with it.

WishIhadknown said...

Anonymous said...
Lydia,
Pastors are set apart and have an anointing. You can deny this all you want to but it is true. Deal with it.
October 13, 2010 6:31 PM
No they are not. I have asked the question, “Are pastors anymore set apart and anointed than any other believer?” many times over the last four years of a number of different pastors and a couple of seminary presidents and they all agreed all Christians are equally set apart and anointed.
I know they tell the seminary students that early and often but that is rooted in sentimentality and not sound Biblical doctrine. We are all “called” and “set apart.”
What is also true is that it is not the pastor’s job to win people to Christ; that is our job, the members. The pastor’s job is to prepare us to witness the good news and allow the Holy Spirit to bring the lost to Christ.

WishIhadknown said...

Can we all take a break for a moment and give thanks and praise to God for the successful rescue of the miners in Chile.

Anonymous said...

WishIhadknown: You are so correct. Many of those that would have us believe they are anoited leave the ministry every day. There are a lot of them that do not win ONE soul to the Lord all year long and several thousand baptist churches fail to Baptize one person in a year. If they (all) were anoited there would be a movement by the Holy Spirit within the church that they attend and the fruit would be coming forthwith. I personally believe some of these so called pastors are nothing more than self serving who pretend to be called by God, but in reality are calling themselves into the "MARKET PLACE" where gullible sheep can be fleeced. Thanks for your insight. Been watching and listening to some of these jokers for years. The jokers are the main reason a lot of people have left the church and taking their money with them.

Anonymous said...

Wish,
I suggest you study Scripture more closely because the office of pastor is set apart.

C.T.

Lydia said...

Lydia,
Pastors are set apart and have an anointing. You can deny this all you want to but it is true. Deal with it.

October 13, 2010 6:31 PM

Stop being so pedantic and prove it with scripture in context. But be prepared to defend the Greek. Esp if you come here with Hebrews 13:17. Horribly abused scripture by the authoritarians who want folks to follow them instead of Christ.

Overseer simply means old person in the Greek and denotes a seasoned mature believer...at least one who would be recognized as more mature than the others around them. That might be different in Crete than it would be in Corinth. So, overseer, is nothing more glam that one who is a lowly servant to others.

You also ignored the passages in 1 John 2 from another thread. How can pastors be specially anointed and set apart when 1 John 2 says ALL believers have anointing...not just pastors?

That would mean Ted Haggard and Matt Baker had "special anointing". After all, they had the right "titles", according to you.

You do not know the scripture. You can only parrot what someone has told you and make what you think are declarative statements. It simply sounds silly because you do not back it up.

But we are noticing you rarely back up any of your one line declarative statements. I am wondering if that works for you in real life? If it does, you might 3want to consider the poor education you have received with few thinking skills.

I would say you sound young but I have met 40 year olds out of seminary and in paid ministry who communicate the same pedantic way. I suppose they have been taught they are not to be questioned. Good thing, because they could not handle it.

Lydia said...

Ever hear of the Dale Carnegie course. It’s a training program for sales and business people. My father attended one in the 40’s. In the course, they told them to be successful join the biggest most influential church in town. Doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with them, pretend. Always go along with the crowd and support the pastor. And every Sunday, shake the pastor’s hand and press a new $5 bill in it.

October 13, 2010 6:01 PM

This is very true. They updated that of course for more modern use but the sentiment remained. Now one is to advertise in the Shepherds Guide or a variation of what the mega puts out. Many mega's have a business ministry or some form of business networking.
Carnagie started this but Norman Vincent Peale perfected it.

Many mega's use a variation of Carnagie tactics for their member services, too.

Makes you wonder how fake so many things really are.

Lydia said...

Pastors are set apart and have an anointing. You can deny this all you want to but it is true. Deal with it.

October 13, 2010 6:31 PM

Like Ted Haggard was "set apart" with special anointing while being massaged by his homosexual friend. Matt Baker was "set apart" with special anointing when he was cheating on his wife and then murdered her. After all, they both had the right "set apart" title. It has to be true! How else would we know before it is too late?

There are a ton of such examples just within the SBC! When we branch out into the Evangelical world the numbers of such 'set apart' becomes even bigger!


Can you guys at least TRY to put on your thinking/reasoning caps?

Katie said...

Pastors should absolutely have to report gifts they receive. However, I would hope that a little common sense could prevail.

Most of you know I was in the Navy for 20 years. Military members are not to accept gifts from anyone in their capacity as person who serves the nation. That doesn't mean if your superior gives you a box of chocolates for Christmas, that you have to shun that gift. We have a saying in the Navy "Loose lips, sink ships"! It's inappropriate to accept gifts of money, or anything that could be considered of substantial value. Even the appearance of such an exchange can put one in jeopardy. Foreign operatives love to lavish gifts on high profile people with ratings that could reveal military security data. Can you even for a minute imagine a gift being given to a person who holds the keys to military strike targets? There are what we call 'national tokens' that are exchanged between countries. An example would be when a U.S. ship pulls into port in a foreign country, the skipper of the ship and some government official from the country exchange gifts as a greeting and a show of generosity and respect. But it's never anything of great monetary value. And, it's normally not a personal gift to the skipper.

After serving 20 years in the Navy I taught elementary school for 10 years. I can assure you my salary was pathetic. After 10 years I had reached the grand total of 40 grand. It costs more than that to get my M.Ed. LOL. But here again, gifts become a problem. Little kids love to bring their teachers flowers, candy, little personal notes, teddy bears, etc. Those things are fine and it would do more harm than good to not accept those types of gifts. However, I had years where parents gave me gift cards from major department stores worth over $100.00. Nope, you should never accept that kind of gift. It can give the appearance that grades are for sale or that a child would receive better treatment than another. It's just wrong. Even the appearance of impropriety should be avoided. Gift cards were returned to the parents privately with a gracious explanation.

Most large companies and organizations have some type of monetary limit set in stone in regard to receving and giving gifts. I can see no reason whatsoever that Pastor's should be any different. In fact, the standard for the church should always be of the highest integrity and it should exceed the standards of the world.

If a private church member wants to give a large gift of land as long as it is for the use of the entire church, I would say that would be acceptable. The church I attend actually had the land given to us. After that it took more than 5 years to erect the new church buildings on the land. Again, the gift wasn't for the Pastor it was for the church. We have by-laws that state clearly that a Pastor or Elder cannot receive personal gifts that exceed $50.00. I am a new member of this church, but the history of how it was built and where the land was acquired is open for any member to see. Our Pastor's salary is disclosed.

If you want to buy your Pastor one of those "Christian ties", or a mug, etc to show your appreciation for their work, I don't think that has to be disclosed. But limits should be set. Knowing for sure that your Pastor isn't receiving large gifts for special favors will tell the congregation, that they do indeed worship with believers of integrity.

WishIhadknown said...

“C.T. said,
I suggest you study Scripture more closely because the office of pastor is set apart.”

Really? Show me. I have been actively asking that question for four years to a lot of people including a number of pastors and two seminary presidents and not one has shown me precedence in scripture to support that assertion.

Anonymous said...

"It seems to me that if you judge that I am not a pastor by what I say...I was wondering what you will say to Jesus by what He has said?"

I take it back you are not the king of bad analogies. You are the king of psycho-babel. Is that a promotion or demotion?

johnthebaptist said...

Anonymous said...
"It seems to me that if you judge that I am not a pastor by what I say...I was wondering what you will say to Jesus by what He has said?"

I take it back you are not the king of bad analogies. You are the king of psycho-babel. Is that a promotion or demotion?
____________


Well,since you can't stay focused and keep changing your mind about the names to call me...lets play a different game....I will be the horses head, and you just be yourself.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Not that I'm anyone, but please allow me to confirm that "johnthebaptist" is indeed what he has represented himself to be, a bi-vocational pastor. (He can correct me if I'm wrong.)

Thank you. You may continue.

Anonymous said...

"Well,since you can't stay focused and keep changing your mind about the names to call me...lets play a different game....I will be the horses head, and you just be yourself."

Very mature.

You're congregation is blessed to have you.

johnthebaptist said...

Anon said...

Very mature.

You're congregation is blessed to have you.

_____

Dude, lighten up...it is a joke. If you said it or if a "layman" had said it, I am sure your reponse would have been different. Funny about the double standard. Anyway, didn't mean to offend, I was just kidding with you. Sometimes the "old man" pops up his head before the "new man" can take control.

No hard feelings...at least from me.

Anonymous said...

No double standard.

That would have been immature from anyone over 16 years old.

johnthebaptist said...

Anonymous said...
No double standard.

That would have been immature from anyone over 16 years old

___________

Could be right....first time for everything. :)

Anonymous said...

Lydia and WIsh,
It is impossible to present Scripture to you and many others on here because you simply discount it and accuse the offerer of misinterpreting Scripture. Your view of Hebrews 13:17 being a perfect example of that. You say be prepared to defend the Greek. How can I when you don't even interpret that right. Overseer is certainly not restricted to simply an old person. Your interpretation is right and everyone else's is wrong, in your opinion. I could easily look to Timothy and those Scriptures that clearly point to a pastor being set apart but once again, I am sure I have a wrong interpretation. Because of this, there seems to be very little point in offering other Scriptures just to hear it shouted that I am wrong. Thus, I can provide no Scripture that will satisfy you because you will simply twist into something it does not mean.

Furthermore, as seen here you pull out your favorite attacks of picking the few bad apples out of the tree in an attempt to claim the whole tree is rotten. For every Ted Haggard there are 100 Spirit led, loving pastors. But you don't want to talk about them You just want to focus on the negative so you can pretend that every pastor is bad. Guess what? Most people don't by your lie. They are not as hateful and jaded as you. You will tell me I am wrong which is not surprising. Telling people wrong seems to be all you want to do. However, I am not wrong. The Bible reveals I am not wrong. You can not accept all you want but that doesn't change the truth.

X Baptist said...

John the Baptist,

I was taught early to not argue with the ignorant.

Dude, if your a minister, I pray GOD expose you for the deceiver and TARE that you are to those you have authority over, if he has not already done so.

You seem to be a troubled man with a troubling heart.

WishIhadknown said...

Anon
Please provide the scriptures, I have repeatedly and respectfully asked but not one person has given even one scripture proving the pastor is anymore anointed and set apart than any other believer. When have I shouted? I think I am simply asking a very simple question, why won’t you give an answer, in scripture. You wrote a very long reply but never answered the question.

I am not Lydia, Lydia and I have had our differences, she does not agree with me on everything and I do not agree with her but we love and respect each other.

You said, “For every Ted Haggard there are 100 Spirit led, loving pastors.”
I think there are many more than that, I certainly hope there is not one Ted Haggard for every 100 pastors.

You said, “You just want to focus on the negative so you can pretend that every pastor is bad.” You need to go back and read my posts because I have repeatedly offered praise for my pastor and for Pastor Wiley and others.

I love and respect and fellowship with very many hard working, long-suffering, sincere and dedicated pastors. In fact, many of them are as concerned about the direction of the church as I am but they know they cannot express their opinion because of the severe retaliation they face if they do. Doesn’t it bother you at least a little bit that the words retaliation and church and pastor are linked together?

Why don’t you just answer the question as it is asked and as it is intended? You don’t know, I have had to admit to mistakes more than once in my life. So try me.

WishIhadknown said...

Ok, I must be missing something.
Heb. 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.”

I hope I am. The leader who spoke the word of God to me and a group of others like him stood up to error that was spreading in the SBC and started a movement that saw the SBC grow instead of shrinking like it is now.

1 Tim 3. Lists the qualification for being a pastor but I see nothing about placing him up on a pedestal. Frankly, I also expect my pastor to be given to no wine.

I read nothing in the scriptures that says they are any more or less special than any other brother or sister.

Lydia said...

"Overseer is certainly not restricted to simply an old person. "

I never said it was "restricted". I said what it meant in the Greek as in "elder". We know this means someone "mature" in the Faith. It is something they inherently are because of their Faith and obediance as servants to others. It is not a title we are to just confer on someone because they are a respected businessman. It is something they ARE.

" I could easily look to Timothy and those Scriptures that clearly point to a pastor being set apart but once again, I am sure I have a wrong interpretation."

Are you speaking of the qualifications for "elders" in 1 Tim? So, all pastors are elders and all elders are pastors?

" For every Ted Haggard there are 100 Spirit led, loving pastors."

But this misses the point. Ted Haggard and Matt Baker (just to name two out of many) mislead people for YEARS.

So, I ask you, DURING those years they were deceiving their followers who had NO idea of their deception, were they "set apart" with special anointing?

Please answer the above question.

This is the danger of elevating people INSTEAD of Christ. And Christ knew that, too, which is why we have Him telling us the BEST teacher is the Holy Spirit and that ALL true believers have anointing and are in the Holy Priesthood.

Note: Do you know why Hebrews 13:17 is a bad translation of the Greek? Because if we "obey rulers" in the Body, then we are serving two masters. And we might be obeying another Ted Haggard and enabling and supporting sin.

A better translation is 'those who went before you to persuade you......' as in mature believers who know and live truth.

I hope one day you will learn to follow Christ instead of humans. The Holy Spirit IS the best teacher.

Anonymous said...

Man I am glad many of you aren't in my congregation. You are dissenters and dividers and hate mongers with a desire of nothing more than making the life of a pastor unbearable and unlivable. Shame on you!

October 13, 2010 11:43 AM
___________________________________

We want transparency and accountability of the leaders of the congregation. And look at all the names you call us. Man I am glad I am not in your congregation. (smile)

Anonymous said...

too many here are preacher haters.
__________________________________

We ask for transparency and are called preacher haters. Hmmmm. That pretty much proves our point. You must really have to hate a pastor to ask him to be transparent with finances. Because if you only knew those numbers, it would destroy him and his ministry. Therefore, you must hate him to ask such a thing.

Anonymous said...

What would anyone accomplish or even hope to receive by gifting a pastor something? What influence are they buying? A little prayer to God?
___________________________________

They are trying to buy their eternal salvation. Or maybe a video commercial for their family business? Who knows.

Anonymous said...

And don't give me the crap about free advertising of the gifters sons building company. That dog won't hunt and we both know it. At the time that was mentioned it had nothing to do with the construction company except for the fact that they honored the Sabbath in their company.
___________________________________

That was some coincidence though wasn't it? The ONLY commercial FBC Jax has EVER played during the middle of a sermon and despite 30,000 members, that commercial just happened to be for Collins Builders and the land gift just happened to come from the Collins' father. But no way those two are related. And anyone who thinks they are must be haters.

And it came only two weeks after the new preaching gig started. And it was not disclosed to the congregation. Wow. A gift of more than a year's salary just two weeks after starting your new job. Nothing to raise any concerns about that. Particularly when the recipient wrote a book telling pastors NOT to accept expensive gifts. Get the book. It will explain why pastors should not do that.

Anonymous said...

If you think it is okay for pastor's to accept expensive gifts, don't get mad at me. Take it up with da book. (mac's book)

johnthebaptist said...

X Baptist said...
John the Baptist,

I was taught early to not argue with the ignorant.

Dude, if your a minister, I pray GOD expose you for the deceiver and TARE that you are to those you have authority over, if he has not already done so.

You seem to be a troubled man with a troubling heart.
--------------------


Well X, It seems you are hurt and angry. You can find peace in Christ. Everyone's heart is deceitful and wicked who can know it? Yeah, Christ knows our heart. He ALONE can judge our heart.

If I am a deceiver, I will be exposed by my Lord. Unfortuatly, you have been exposed here and you are angry about it and you are now lashing out at me. So be it.

My heart is troubled...because I am afraid you might be so hurt and angry for whatever happened to you, that you will turn your back on Jesus. He is your hope, your strength and your salvation if your will open your heart to Him.

I will be praying for you.

Anonymous said...

Lydia,
Pastors are set apart and have an anointing. You can deny this all you want to but it is true. Deal with it.

October 13, 2010 6:31 PM
___________________________________

Of all the comments on this blog. This was takes the prize as the biggest BS of all of them. And it also reveals how we got to this mess. Pass the kool-aid, pass the wallet, and lower your trousers. For God's man is about to see you now...

WishIhadknown said...

Somebody, somewhere in one of the posts stated that Steve Gaines makes in excess of $500,000 per year. I would just like to go on record as saying I do not believe that is true or if it is then he and Donna give away a substantial portion of that. I meant to post this sooner but I could not figure out how to work it in, so sorry for the delay.

Also I think that if the powers that be would just disclose it we would learn that his salary is not out of line. It’s the failure to disclose that gives the appearance of impropriety.

By the way, my salary is public information available online via a link on our local news paper’s website.

Dog, if you’ll let me I would like for you to post this in both the current and past topic. Thanks.

WishIhadknown said...

Indeed, admitting when we are wrong is something all of us find very hard to do. Dr. Gray Allison told a story on himself that I think illustrates this point.

He and his wife were traveling in Indiana on their way to Chicago. They reached a turn off. Dr. Gray insisted that the proper turn was to the right, while his wife said, “no dear, you need to turn left.” Dr. Gray went on to say, “I knew I was right, I knew the road curved around and eventually took us back toward I Chicago. I absolutely knew I was right. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. So I did what every man would do in the same situation, I turned right. My wife never said a thing.

I knew I was in trouble when I saw the first mileage marker saying Detroit is 150 miles away. Now it does not take a geographical genius to know Detroit is the opposite direction from Chicago when traveling through Indiana. My wife said nothing.

Shortly after that I saw the next mile maker, Detroit 125 miles away. Ok, I knew at that point I was wrong but I did not want to admit it and I had to think of some way to make myself right and her wrong. She still said nothing.

Do you know we were 50 miles away from Detroit before I finally turned around and headed back to Chicago. I had taken us 200 miles out of our way just so I would not have to admit my mistake and do you know my wife just sat there and never said a word to me.

I don’t know how true the story actually is but it does illustrate a point.

Anon thank you for being so nice.

Anonymous said...

Lydia,
How easily you proved my point. I rest my case.

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WishIhadknown said...

So, New, are you having a bad day?

Anonymous said...

"My heart is troubled...because I am afraid you might be so hurt and angry for whatever happened to you, that you will turn your back on Jesus. He is your hope, your strength and your salvation if your will open your heart to Him."

Oldest tactic in the playbook. Ignore it, friends. It is called making the victim the sinner by claiming they cannot get over their hurt and anger. But notice, they never focus on the sinner. It is the victim who speaks that is sinning. Perhaps they cannot recognize the sin because of their abherrant belief in a set apart human mediator.

JTB seems to have it down pat even promising to pray for you instead of the one who inflicted the evil. See,if you just ignore the evil and never say a word, then you can be a real Christian.

If your heart is not troubled by the evil and deception found in most of our churches today, then you DO have a hard heart. Making those who speak out, the problem, is only a temporal tactic of enabling sin. Be careful.

Pharisees believed in the "set apart" role which enabled their very bad behavior and twisting of the law to their benefit. We are not under the law but the same tactics exist for those who also think there are some who are "set apart" from the Holy Priesthood in some higher caste position.

The only thing some are "set apart" from is when they teach the Word, they will judged more strictly. There is a reason to be very careful. And it applies to all of us who ever teach the Word.

Matt

Tom, when I visit your blog I am constantly reminded how deep is the deception and lack of truth out there in our churches. Pastors are looking more and more like Levite Priests than members of the Holy Priesthood.

johnthebaptist said...

October 15, 2010 5:48 PM

Anonymous said...
"My heart is troubled...because I am afraid you might be so hurt and angry for whatever happened to you, that you will turn your back on Jesus. He is your hope, your strength and your salvation if your will open your heart to Him."

Oldest tactic in the playbook. Ignore it, friends. It is called making the victim the sinner by claiming they cannot get over their hurt and anger. But notice, they never focus on the sinner. It is the victim who speaks that is sinning. Perhaps they cannot recognize the sin because of their abherrant belief in a set apart human mediator.

JTB seems to have it down pat even promising to pray for you instead of the one who inflicted the evil. See,if you just ignore the evil and never say a word, then you can be a real Christian.

If your heart is not troubled by the evil and deception found in most of our churches today, then you DO have a hard heart. Making those who speak out, the problem, is only a temporal tactic of enabling sin. Be careful.

Pharisees believed in the "set apart" role which enabled their very bad behavior and twisting of the law to their benefit. We are not under the law but the same tactics exist for those who also think there are some who are "set apart" from the Holy Priesthood in some higher caste position.

The only thing some are "set apart" from is when they teach the Word, they will judged more strictly. There is a reason to be very careful. And it applies to all of us who ever teach the Word.

Matt

-----------------

Well you seem to have everything figured out, including the intent of my heart. Funny, I was sure that the bible says that only God knows what is in a man heart.

When I said I would pray for you, and I have, it included your whole situation. Since you didn't tell me all the details, that is the best I could do.

My conscience is clean before the Lord, of who's opinion of me is what really matters. I didn't try to do anything by saying I would pray for you other than, get this now...pray for you. I have never seen a person get upset and attack me when I said that I would pray for them. Go figure.

I didn't know there was a book of "tactics" so I wouldn't know which one is the oldest. Amazing you do. Can I get a copy of that book? All I have is the bible.

Why do you keep using the word "they" in your rant? It is just me. You seem to have ought against not only me but most all preachers. I trust you know what the bible says if you have ought against someone.

My heart is troubled about what goes on in churches now days. I think "DOG" is right in most things he says on this blog. I don't agree with everything but it must be brought to light. It seems you might be the one with a heart condition by your attacks but as you might remember, ONLY God knows that.
You can TRY to portray me as any kind of preacher you want. That doesn't mean it is true. It doesn't really matter to me either.
You still haven't come to terms with you anger and being hurt....or the one who caused the hurt. Only you can do that. I can only pray for your situation...if that won't upset you again.

Anonymous said...

Me thinks that JTB protests too much.