"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Thursday, October 7, 2010

Mac Uses 10 People Holding Dollar Bills to Show What "All the Upset is About" - It's Just "That Little 10% that God Requires"

I want to congratulate Mac Brunson on a stellar performance in September 2010. He exceeded even the September 2008 fund-raising performance that I criticized when I was still a member that ended with a criminal investigation into my blog the day after the offering. This year Mac really pulled out all the stops, and took the fund raising at FBC Jax to a "whole nutha level". Textbook stuff, really. Mac even taught the church what "10 percent" means, as shown in the picture at right. Unbelievably, everyone now knows that "10 percent" means "1 out of 10".

Here's a recap of the month; it was a lot, so I'll try to be concise:

He started out the month giving a staunch defense of the tithing doctrine. He still teaches that the borderline between obedience and disobedience is exactly 10% of your income. He took a swipe at authors Frank Viola and George Barna who are among a growing number of credible Christians who dare to speak the truth that the storehouse tithing doctrine is unbiblical. These tithing preachers need to stop with the misuse of Malachi 3 and the "robbing God" accusations, and they need to teach more of Proverbs 22:22, where it says "Do not rob the poor because he is poor...for the Lord will plead their case and take the life of those who rob them." Perhaps that should be quoted right before the offerings on a regular basis. But you don't hear much about THAT "robbing" Old Testament verse, which is much more appropriate today in the storehouse tithing mega churches, than is the Malachi 3 verse.

Mac announced via a special letter that they needed to raise $1 million cash or they wouldn't be able to finish the renovations of the auditorium. Somehow, FBC Jax was a whopping 25% short of cash needed for a $4 million project that included addition of Sunday School space, and then ripping up the carpet and replacing the pews and wall coverings in the 9000+ seat auditorium. Mac said the carpet was "ratty", the "pews were a mess", and the wall coverings needed to come down. Mac said he was just following his dad's advice: "You can at least be clean". One expensive "cleaning", that is for sure.

Mac then preached "reaping and sowing" out of Genesis 26, misusing scripture to say that because Isaac sowed of his "resources" during a "double dip recession" (it's in the Greek), that people today should also sow of their financial resources and portfolios into the church to be obedient and receive God's blessings during our own double dip recession. He actually said that Isaac planting seeds means he was trusting God with his "commodity, his portfolio, his finances". I didn't see that in the text. It says Isaac planted seeds. But Mac said Isaac's sowing and then bountiful reaping from God means Christians today during terrible economic times need to give more money to their church so they too can reap. Amen!

Mac then declared that the people of FBC Jax are "gripped with fear" because they won't let loose of their 10%. He used himself as the model of faith, as he tithes, he doesn't "mess with the tithe, or the house payment or the shoe money". Hardy har har.

Mac then brought 10 people out of the audience to show everyone what "10 percent" means. Everyone now knows that 10% means "1 out of 10", because Mac took one of the 10 people, who all had dollar bills in their hands, and made her move to the end of the newly constructed stage. Mac then declared that this is "what all the fuss is about", "just that little 10%", that little part that "God requires". Again, more of the same: God requires 10%, and you people are just not trusting Jesus.

Then Mac showed a video of a stay-at-home mom of four children whose husband was sentenced to jail on drug charges a few years ago, and the mother's testimony was that they were completely out of money, couldn't pay their electric bill, couldn't pay the rent, almost at foreclosure...a real-life family and financial tragedy. And her testimony is that at that moment of financial disaster, she said she made the decision to start tithing. I'm not criticizing her, but what does this say about the ministry of FBC Jax and Mac Brunson, that a poor mother with no food and money decides to start forking over 10% of her income to the church? But then again, this is what Dave Ramsey teaches: that he tithed all the way into and out of bankruptcy. Apparently the tithe to the mega church must be paid by poor struggling moms who have lost their husbands. This testimony sent the message: even you poor folks who can't pay your bills, you need to give 10% too, so you can be obedient, and your bills will be paid too. It is nothing short of financial and spiritual perversion.

Mac squeezed the good folks at FBC Jax for all they're worth. Even the Sunday of the offering, they moved the offering to the END of the service to give everyone a chance to "prepare" their special offering. This also gave Mac one more whack at the wallets, preaching again out of the Old Testament on the temple of God, and how the care of the temple reflects what Christians think about God.

So it was a great month of fund raising. It had it all. Scripture was misused, tithing was put forth as the path to obedience and God's blessings, and Mac wrongly characterized the real concerns that his church members have with their finances during these days. People need to give 10%, they're not, they're fearful, and not exhibiting faith. Times are tough for a mega church with such cheapskates as members.

September 2010 will be a perfect case study of non-scriptural "fund raising" that other pastors can be sure to follow (or avoid, whichever is the case).

And let's see if they raised the million.

If not, perhaps I'm just days away from more subpoenas.

121 comments:

Anonymous said...

Ooooh, they get to be on stage! People at mega's love that!!

Anonymous said...

This kind of nonsense sums up the reason many of us have moved on, but "unlearning" this stuff is quite a long process. Creative mind control at it's best! Mac knows that folks raised "in the church" respond well to guilt!

Anonymous said...

I believe Brunson is a third rate paster trying to be a first rate pastor. So please try to be easy on his. Mat god be with all of you.

tom said...

give Pastor brunson a break for god sakes

Lynn said...

Wouldn't those adults feel a little silly up there giving a math lesson to other adults?

Sheri said...

I wonder if the FBC Jax members at large were ever given the opportunity to vote on the Renovation, or if they knew the entire cost up front.

These tactics are deployable, and becoming obsolete. As more of us wise up to this nonsense, the more deperate the Mega Pastors will get.

January is the Chest of Joash general budget pledge.......should be interesting to see what Mac pulls out of his hat!!

Anonymous said...

You know, if there is a "tithe" in the New Covenant, that means that Mac is a Levite Priest and is not allowed to own property. Not even a house. He must move into the church building.

By the way, a big portion of the "tithe" was to take care of widows, orphans and strangers.

Lydia said...

"This kind of nonsense sums up the reason many of us have moved on, but "unlearning" this stuff is quite a long process"

You have nailed it! It can even be embarassing to have to unlearn it. But it is worth it.

ONce you realize truth from the Word, you can hardly listen to these guys again. It is painful.

Lydia said...

You know, Mac says that it is just a little that God requires? Think about that. It is simply not true across the board. It completely negates what Jesus told ONE specific person in Matthew 19. This story is in 3 Gospels.

And it shows a different view of giving than the OC tithe. Jesus knew his wealth was an idol to him. He would have been relieved if Jesus had said, just give 10% and you can come with me.

So what I might be led to give might be totally different than what Tom is led to give based upon our situation, what idols we have in our hearts, etc.

I have heard it said that the 10% tithe is a horrible burden for the very poor but a huge relief to the rich. How true.

BTW: The very poor did not "tithe" in the OT. The tithe was produce from the land and animals. In fact, The very poor were supported by the tithe in the OC!

Concerned Layman said...

give Pastor brunson a break for god sakes

October 7, 2010 8:48 PM

__________________________________

Pastor Brunson needs to give his congregation a break for god sakes! Demanding money again! And twisting scripture to boot. The man has no shame. Brazen fundraising, not to help the poor, but to help the rich be more comfortable in their pews. Why do those good folks at FBC Jax keep funding this man?

TheLearningPastor said...

I hope this isn't out of line Watchdog, but if I may share a link to an article I wrote about churches building empires while ignoring the issues that are in the front of God's agenda, I would love to. I think it speaks to this issue and writing it has helped me to see the ministry of the church in a whole new, and more biblical light.

http://bit.ly/9gb0aW

Thanks and God bless you for all you do.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Learning Pastor - yes, that is a great article. I read it some time ago on your blog. Powerful.

Here is the hyperlink to the article:

Empire

Bill said...

The tithing doctrine issue, again.

We are too comfortable as Christians in America. Too comfortable with our freedom to worship, too comfortable in our air-conditioned auditoriums, too comfortable in our lifestyle.

How does spending $4 million dollars on a renovation project directly result in the command Jesus gave us to go and make disciples?

"Mac said the carpet was "ratty", the "pews were a mess", and the wall coverings needed to come down."

What, did this just happen overnight? Did not anyone in the leadership of the church have the vision that one day these renovations will need to be made? This is a comment that one would expect from an unappreciative, materialistic, egotistical, controller. Or, from one who would spend $100K on an office suite renovation. Could be the same guy.

Seriously. Let's play "what if" for a minute.

What if... we started meeting in our homes in small groups for Bible Study. Then we do not need to build SS space. There are tons of pro/con arguments concerning this, I'll just toss it out there.

What if... we sat on ratty pews and took the wall coverings down and used that money to build four walls and a roof for a group of believers in another country.

What if... we met in small groups in our homes and viewed the sermons over the internet?

What if... I used my tithe to buy groceries for a lost person that was struggling. And as a result I had the opportunity to share the gospel.

What if... we realized that we do not need these church facilities to worship Christ, encourage other believers, witness to the lost, and to go and make disciples?

And yes, I am examining my own life to see what I can do without, what I need to change, and where I need to go to follow His command to go and make disciples.

sorry for the rant.

John Wylie said...

I remember several years ago I served with a pastor who would have people get up and give a testimony about tithing before the offering would be taken.

As I recall one man got up and said that he and his wife were on vacation one weekend and decided to use their tithe money for vacation expenses. Well, as the story goes the engine blew up in their truck that weekend, and the man stated emphatically that he believed that happened because he kept back his tithe. I still believed the tithe doctrine back then, but I remembered thinking that the story made God look like Marlon Brando from the Godfather and this poor man failed to pay his protection money. I don't believe that about God. Further, I can find no offering in the N.T. given by constraint or as a religious tax as the Jews were to give in the O.T. Also as Lydia so aptly noted, the poor didn't tithe. And I find nowhere in scripture where Gentiles were ever commanded to tithe.

EnnisP said...

There are lot of issues being spun together in this thread.

How FBC operates.
What the poor can or should do.
Whether or not tithing is for today.

I know personally many of the people at FBC and am familiar with their ministries. I wouldn't defend how they operate but there isn't enough evidence to impugn their motives.

Being sensitive to the needs of the poor and helping them when necessary is a good thing but we must be careful not to be condescending. And Jesus is the best illustration of this truth.

Instead of criticizing the religious leaders for accepting her very meager offering (two mites - all her living) probably everything she earned that day, He praised her for her faithfulness. Her "giving under impossible odds" testimony is recorded in Scripture.

I wrote about her offering and Jesus response here: http://nowthinkaboutit.com/2010/06/corruption-countermands-tithing/

Lydia: The poor did tithe, it was the destitute who didn't.

Good financial management, even of a little money, includes giving and 10% is a good figure to use. And to say God wouldn't honor and bless the person who does this is, at best, questionable. Personally I believe in and practice tithing but if I didn't I still think it is important to have a financial plan even for our giving.

I ask this question often and have yet to receive a clear and extended answer but, if not tithing, what?

Do you give consistently and regularly and if so how do you determine an amount? If you say your giving is "Spirit led" please give some detail.

Not being combative, just dialoguing.

Anonymous said...

Lets do a little math. Say a single person living in a rental or may own their home. Imagine they make $30,000 gross. Their rent or mtg/insurance/taxes is either $900 or $1350 per month for a modest home (depending on interest rate, of course). Their taxes are $300 per month; car $500 per month, health insurance $200, ss $200; gas/oil/tires/repairs $150; utilities $300-$400; clothes $150; emergencies $150, if ill, include medicine and med., costs.. Well this gives one an idea. Add this up and you come to a total between $2850-$3350 per month. Remember there are no children in this model, with a child or children compund expenses accordingly. An individual making $30,000 per year in this example is $4000 - $9000 short every year. So what do they need to cut back on. First sell their car and buy an old jalopy (which will require repairs often). Wear old clothes, get behind on their rent or mtg. and take the government handout, but whatever they do TITHE. Does anyone understand whats going on in the REAL WORLD FINANCIALLY. And if they lose their job just for a month or two guess what their credit is gone. gone, gone, and no credit cards, but I forgot to mention in this model they had ZERO credit cards, to begin with, it's even worse with credit card balances. Many now are living off their credit cards!! When that runs out guess what?....BANKRUPTCY Poor folks can't tithe and unlike some pastors who would have you believe God sits on His throne and throws darts at those that don't tithe. That's not my Savior that died on the Cross for me. It's not the Savior in my Bible!!!! And I might add. if a percentage were to be taken...how many SALVATION sermons have actually been preached (other than an occasional tip of the hat to Jesus) VS. sermons preached and shouted about money???? Comments are my opinion of course.

Anonymous said...

Philip was asked by the Ethiopean how to be saved. The jailer at Phillipi asked Paul what must I do to be saved. Corneilius the centurian asked Peter what must he do to be saved. I cannot find one word of any money being the topic of these conversations. Its really all about JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. Money is the farthest thing one considers when Jesus paid it all. Never give in to a temptation about tithing being a requirement in the new testament...Lydia spelled that out perfectly. Just an old Gentile sinner saved by His blood.

Anonymous said...

ATTN: John Wylie: What a refreshing view coming from a pastor. I have not always agreed with you, but, you are rapidly becoming a favorite. Thanks for your comment.

Anonymous said...

And yes, I am examining my own life to see what I can do without, what I need to change, and where I need to go to follow His command to go and make disciples.

sorry for the rant.

October 8, 2010 12:22 AM

Bill, that is NO rant! Many of us are doing exactly some of the things you mention and have found extreme freedom in Christ by doing so. it is like cutting apron strings from mama and becoming a grown up in Christ. Now, we must be led by the Holy Spirit in giving and it is an adventure! And "people" don't get the credit, Jesus Christ gets the credit.

These temples are spiritually dead. My prayer is that more will see it and get out so they can depend on God and see some really amazing things that have to be from Him instead of man.

Mac and all the others do not want belivers who are spiritually mature. Those types are too independent and do not follow man.

The problem is that based upon Mac's teachings, I can see that he is worldly so I have to be concerned for those who follow him.

You are so right about the ratty carpet, the wall coverings, etc. What does it matter? It doesn't in the kingdom but that place is not the kingdom or they would know that. God is going to burn it all up anyway. They are building their great monument to themselves on wood and straw.

FMBJr said...

Sounds like the "Prosperity Gospel"is being preached at FBC Jax. Read Genesis 26 for yourself. In the days of Isaac were there places of worship etc.? Carpet and pews to be replaced?

So I am thinking God blessed Isaac and then Isaac gave to others as he was blessed to do.

Anonymous said...

"Then Mac showed a video of a stay-at-home mom of four children whose husband was sentenced to jail on drug charges a few years ago, and the mother's testimony was that they were completely out of money, couldn't pay their electric bill, couldn't pay the rent, almost at foreclosure...a real-life family and financial tragedy. And her testimony is that at that moment of financial disaster, she said she made the decision to start tithing. I'm not criticizing her, but what does this say about the ministry of FBC Jax and Mac Brunson, that a poor mother with no food and money decides to start forking over 10% of her income to the church?"

This is the Joel Osteen Gospel. Or Ken Copeland or Benny Hinn.

What does this say about her Chritian witness to all the unbelievers she owned money to?

And why wasn't her church HELPING HER instead of TAKING from her. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot teach the tithe and then not understand it was used to help the poor like her. Not to take tithe from her!

How guys like Mac can take money from people like that and then go home to their rich lifestyle and never feel enought conviction of sin to do anything about it never ceases to show me how dead spiritually the churches out there are.

Anonymous said...

Surprise, surprise. More hate from the WD. What else is new?

Anonymous said...

"I ask this question often and have yet to receive a clear and extended answer but, if not tithing, what?"

Your answer is found in scripture:
2 Corinthians 9: 7

Anonymous said...

"Surprise, surprise. More hate from the WD. What else is new?"

Surprise, surprise. More hate FOR the WD. What else is new?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - the video of this mother was quite short, and it made no mention of whether the church did or did not help her. My assumption is that they DID help her, or that her Christian friends in the music ministry in which she serves helped her, or maybe even Mac himself helped her. So I assume she DID receive help from FBC Jax. If the church did not, no doubt the Christians there did.

But my concern in the video is what does it say about a ministry when at the person's lowest moment spiritually, financially, emotionally, etc., is they believe the first act of faith is to start tithing, as though this is one of the ultimate tests of one's faith in God to meet their needs?

This communicated them message: the 10% "that God requires" applies to the millionaires of the church with plenty of margin, and it applies to the "destitute" as the previous poster says. That is good news for the rich, bad news for the poor, as Viola and Barna say.

If I were a person helping her pay her bills in this difficult time, I would tell her to NOT tithe, do not give any money to he church for the time being, that her family and her home and her kids and her electricity ALL COMES FIRST. I would tell her to contact her church also to see if they have a benevolent fund that might ease some of her financial stress. I would encourage her to use the food bank. Lots of advice, but my advice would be to definitely NOT tithe, or give anything to the church for the time being, that now is the time for the church to help her in her time of stress.

Anonymous said...

These two opinions of Tithing are well worth reading:
- - - -
Luther. Martin (Sermon; August 27, 1525): (tithing) [P139]
“But the other commandments of Moses, which are not [implanted in all men] by nature, the Gentiles do not hold. Nor do these pertain to the Gentiles, such as the tithe..."


MacArthur, John [p54], (tithing) , pp53-54] God's Plan for Giving, Moody Press, 1985 Mega-successful church builder, college founder, author, TV ministry.

"So when someone says the Jew gave ten percent, that isn't true. The Jew gave twenty-three percent to begin with. It was for the poor people, the widows, and people who didn't have anything to eat. So they were funding the people who ran the government, which were the Levites; they were providing for national feasts through the festival tithe; and they gave for the welfare program. All this was funding for the national entity. All three of these were taxation, not freewill giving to God. Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run: the priestly program, the national religious program, and the welfare program" 76.
Commentary on the Book of Romans 9-16 (p.233)


Christians are not under obligation to give a specified amount to the work of their heavenly Father. In none of their forms do the tithe or other Old Testament levies apply to Christians.
Thoughts On Tithing (from sermon preached at Grace Community Church in Panorama City, CA):

Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament-never!

Lynn said...

Would it help to look at this from the outside? I'll be the outsider and give my observations.

Christians have this church and are supposedly trying to follow Christ's commands in the Bible (a very confusing book.)

They enjoy fellowshipping every Sunday in a nice building. They hear beautiful music, teach children, worship their God, listen to a sermon that inspires them or rebukes them or informs them or something.

But the church is like running a business. It takes money. The head guy needs to have a good product or service to make people want to keep coming back to his business and give more money.

If people want a lovely environment to have big services in each Sunday, then I guess that's what they want, and they'll pay for it.

If people don't care about that and would be freer and happier with a small group in a home, then do that. If the church is actually just the believers, can't the believers just get together how ever they want to and find good works to do together or just pray or help each other, etc?

Why do they need a big building and a staff of people at all?

Why do they need a pastor? And if they do need a pastor, why can't he work a regular job and be a pastor on the side. It seems like what you have now is a business with a CEO who enjoys all the trappings of wealth. What has that got to do with Christianity?

To me, it looks more like a really nice social club that gets entertained each Sunday. I know there's more to it than that, but the building and what it looks like and the service seem to be extremely important if the church is spending MILLIONS of dollars on it. It must be mighty important to somebody.

Anonymous said...

If anyone has been shopping at the grocery store or any large store or even a drug store have you noticed the folks bagging your groceries or checking you out are older than most of the other workers in these places. Reason...they (a lot of them) are on Social Security and can hardly make ends meet so they stand all day on their feet making extra money in order to pay their expenses. Then I am reminded by some of the megas if they had tithed they wouldn't have ended up working in their 70's or 80's. Get real...life is real for most folks who carry their own burdens day in and day out. Even those on food stamps 41,000,000 of them prefer work but cannot find a job. Blaming people for their being poor is so insensitive particularly those that keep preaching on the 10% they demand from you.

Bro./Min.Rod H. said...

EnnisP said....."Being sensitive to the needs of the poor and helping them when necessary is a good thing but we must be careful not to be condescending. And Jesus is the best illustration of this truth.

Instead of criticizing the religious leaders for accepting her very meager offering (two mites - all her living) probably everything she earned that day, He praised her for her faithfulness. Her "giving under impossible odds" testimony is recorded in Scripture."


Sorry brother Ennis thats not the correct interpretation of that passage at all!!!

In Luke 21 that story of the "POOR" widow is sandwiched between passages of comdemnation from Christ for how corrupt the Jewish religious leaders had perverted Judaism to the point that they had no concern for the more important matters of the Law which were mercy,justice,and righteousness(Matt.23:23)!!!

She should never have had to give all she had to live on; "NEVER"!!!

The religious leaders were supposed to "HELP HER" because she was a "POOR" and a "WIDOW"[Ex.22:22;1Tim.5:3]!!!

Jesus was not commending her as an example of scarificial giving!!!

He was condemning corrupt men,who had corrupted Judaism and God's Word!!!

Sounds very familiar to what many Pastors are doing today;Mac included!!!

In Love!!!

Anonymous said...

Ennis P - you asked: "Do you give consistently and regularly and if so how do you determine an amount? If you say your giving is "Spirit led" please give some detail."

For me, I took a reasoned, practical approach. I looked at my income, me expenses, my obligations and debts and felt that I could cheerfully give would be $400 per month, with the occasional gift above and beyond that as needs come up. It turns out, that is not 10%. My preacher then began to ridicule those of us who were "robbing God" by not giving the whole tithe as they did in Malachi. He said by his accepting my "less than perfect" gift, he was putting me and our church under a curse. He said I should only give "my best" to God and that God does not accept lame or blemished offerings. He also said it had to be my "first fruits" and that meant I had to pay it before I paid my mortgage, insurance, food, etc. I carefully examined what he said and felt like my $400 per month was looked at with disdain and that I was offending him and discouraging him by only giving $400 per month. So obviously, I stopped giving that amount and started giving it to pay down a high interest credit card I ran up when I was unemployed instead.

So to answer your question, I felt like I could cheerfully give $400 based on all factors in my life. But now I give zero, zip, zilch to the church budget and instead am trying to pay back debt that I contractually owe.

Anonymous said...

Anyone that gave any money to that lady thought they were helping her and her kids. Then she turns around and gives the money to FBC Jax. That is sickening to even think about. Another excuse not to give to the poor:

Oh, they'll just buy booze with it
Oh, they'll just give it to that megachurch down the street.

Anonymous said...

Hate is the same as using mind control to achieve money when people income is being reduced or eliminated. This is more than hate. This is criminal.

Anonymous said...

Tithing in the New Testament is simply called Lordship which means Jesus owns it all anyway. All other discussions become meaningless once that's settled.

WishIhadknown said...

"I ask this question often and have yet to receive a clear and extended answer but, if not tithing, what?"

Answer: Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Anonymous said...

I could use some new wallpaper as mine is over 20 years old. My carpets are also in bad shape. My house needs painting and my cars air conditioning doesn't work but I'm still happy and believe me tithing is not a priority with me. I have a family to take care of that needs the money more than any church does.

Anonymous said...

Did you realize that the IRS is more charible than a Baptist church...they only tax on the net (after all deductions) while the church wants 10% of the gross. Sad, sad and more sad.

Anonymous said...

If you tithed, you wouldnt have all those issues....READ THE BIBLE BROTHER!

Give and it shall be given to you

The Windows of Heaven will be opened

Maybe you need to do a check up from your neck up and get right with God and quit robbing the Lord!

Your roofs leaking and your cars are breaking because....YOU ARE STEALING!

Anonymous said...

"Instead of criticizing the religious leaders for accepting her very meager offering (two mites - all her living) probably everything she earned that day, He praised her for her faithfulness. Her "giving under impossible odds" testimony is recorded in Scripture."


You missed the point of the entire passage. Or, I should say, you were taught it wrong. The whole interchange was about the Pharisees.

Did you note who Jesus was talking to. Did He actually talk to the poor woman?

Anonymous said...

Tom said; "but what does this say about the ministry of FBC Jax and Mac Brunson, that a poor mother with no food and money decides to start forking over 10% of her income to the church?"

Anon 9:17 said; "And why wasn't her church HELPING HER instead of TAKING from her."

Tom you should know better than to make such an unfounded statement! You as well as I know that you cannot help anyone if you do not know there is a need. Benevolence at FBC is the same as any other church. People needing help make contact and explain their need. It is at that point help is rendered. FBC nor any other church does not blindly help without first a request for help.

I don't expect anon to know this but I sure expect you to. I can tell you from personal experience that the scores of people I have referred to FBC for help everyone, and I mean 100% of them received the help that they needed.

The same is true at your church TOM. If no one asks for help none could possibly be rendered unless you or someone else is a mind reader or had some special dispensation from God of the need.

EnnisP said...

Rob. H

We both agree that Jesus did condemn the religious leaders but that doesn't diminish the character of this woman's offering.

And it wasn't coerced. The plate wasn't even passed. The offering receptacle was stationary so anyone offering had to come to it.

I doubt the religious leaders even took note of her or what she gave and that is why I believe Jesus made a point of mentioning her.

Where I live, South Africa, African folk are very poor but they give. They live in shacks, they rarely have three meals a day and they don't eat a well balanced diet but they would be insulted if anyone suggested they shouldn't or couldn't give.

To them this poor widow is a champion.

Watching Africans manage very scanty and infrequent incomes generously makes me think we Americans often interpret Scripture according to what we don't have.

I'm not agreeing with abusive manners or method for getting people to give any amount much less ten percent but giving is a responsibility for every person, not just Christians, and it seems we have lost touch with that issue.

If a person can't find a good church to be a part of and give to they should find a way to contribute to genuine needs as they arise.

FBC may be wrong. They might be misusing money but that doesn't excuse withholding it.

Just observations from this side of the world.

Lydia said...

"Tom you should know better than to make such an unfounded statement! You as well as I know that you cannot help anyone if you do not know there is a need. Benevolence at FBC is the same as any other church. People needing help make contact and explain their need. It is at that point help is rendered. FBC nor any other church does not blindly help without first a request for help."

This comment explains the sorry state of our churches. I don't think the writer intended that at all.

Let's see, a member of the Body has to make a need known and then go fill out a bunch of papers, go through a process and then get help. In the meantime, the pastor is railing about "tithes" and everyone should tithe. Even that person who is going to ask for help? Can anyone say, oxymoron?

Does anyone not see the real root of the problem with this? The "Body" does not know one another. Not only is this evident in need but also in spirituality. They come and sit in pews and listen but they do not know what is happening in the lives of those they claim are their brothers and sisters.

Might as well be a corporation. Wait! It is!

Lydia said...

EnnisP, We do not interpret the scripture based on what others do or think about it. We interpret it in context to the passage. And most have missed the point. We could get into details about what sort of 'tithe' it was or whether it was alms or whatever. The point of the passage is WHO is Jesus talking to?

You are wrong about the interpretation. And this wrong interpretation is much abused.

Anonymous said...

Jesus ownes all, Most think this is true even the money mongers of power. Truley there is on reason to have such elaborate messages on giving. Why is FBCJ prostituting it.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 3:04 pm:

Read my comment above. My comments here are not making any judgments on the benevolence of FBC Jax. That is not the point. In fact, I ASSUME that FBC Jax did help this mother, although the video testimony was silent on this. I've heard that Mac Brunson is a very generous person, so maybe he personally helped her, who knows.

My point is what kind of religious system causes a person at their point of financial disaster, to say, "you know what, I need to start giving 10% of my income to the church even though I cannot pay my bills"? It shows the lunacy of a doctrine that calls for 10% across the board, because as Mac says "God requires it". What he calls "that little 10%" is not so little for someone with zero or negative margin, while it might be that miniscule 10% for someone with tremendous margin.

Anonymous said...

"If you tithed, you wouldnt have all those issues....READ THE BIBLE BROTHER!"

Yes, because everyone who gives 10% to the church never has any problems. It's like magic.

"Give and it shall be given to you"

Benny Hinn uses that verse to promote his give to get theology.

"The Windows of Heaven will be opened"

Not seeing a 10% reference here.

"Maybe you need to do a check up from your neck up and get right with God and quit robbing the Lord!"

Maybe you need to stop stealing lines from Zig Ziglar and stop misinterpreting OT scripture.

"Your roofs leaking and your cars are breaking because....YOU ARE STEALING!"

I'm going to ask this question again - not because I think I will get an answer - but because tithing advocates can't answer it - and thus it proves a point.

If the Israelites paid 23% in the OT, why are we only required to pay 10% today?

Anonymous said...

teach it DR.Dog

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:35pm. And whom am I stealing from? What church do you recommend me giving 10%? I suppose you never have any problems since you drive a new car(s). Possibly you just believe you are having windows open to you for following a man and his opinion of the requirement of the tithe which is not NT doctrine. I have read the Bible many many times and know that the tithe was for the JEW. Get a grip!!!!

Bro./Min.Rod H. said...

EnnisP said...
Rob.H

"We both agree that Jesus did condemn the religious leaders but that doesn't diminish the character of this woman's offering."


Ennis it does not diminish her character;
But what it does diminishes is the character of the religious leaders and how they had corrupted thru their teachings(or lack of)the purity of God's Word as revealed by God's commandments in the O.T.concerning the care of widows(Ex.23:23and many others verses)!!!

The reason that that widow did what she did,is the same reason countless Christians give as they give today.
Thru coercion and threat of God's curse if they don't give and exact amount(10%)!!!

Hosea states that people who lack understanding will come to ruin[4:14]!!!
Most Christian have no understanding of Scripture and context.So just like that widow in Luke,they succumb to distorted teaching by some well meaning,and some unscrupulous men!!!


Secondly you like many other erroneously assume that God has called every Pastor to preach.
That my brother is a dangerous assumption[Jeremiah 23;Matt.7:15;Acts 20:29-31;2Pet.2:1-3;Jude 1-4;Rev.13:11],extremely dangerous!!!



Ennis said....."I doubt the religious leaders even took note of her" or what she gave and that is why I believe Jesus made a point of mentioning her."


And that my Brother is the problem with corrupt leaders is that they never notice the needs of others;because it is all about themselves and their greed!!!

The N.T.Church has never been obligated to tithe,nor will it ever be[2Cor.8:12;9:6-8]!!!

In Love!!!

Bro./Min.Rod H. said...

Ennis said......"FBC may be wrong. They might be misusing money but that doesn't excuse withholding it."

One last comment my Brother in Christ!!!

If we find out that a doctor is a quack!

That a laywer is unscrupulous and has lost every case!

A politician who is on the take.

Or for a fact anyone or any business that is corrupt.

Would we continue to give them our hard earned monies.Or better yet should we???

The answer is "NO"!!!

Then why in the name of the Lord should we give to corrupt men,who are not concerned about Christ Sheep and if anything bring contempt to the Name of Christ and the Gospel[Rom.2:23-24;2Pet.2:-3]!!!

In Love!!!

Anonymous said...

On the issue of not knowing if someone needs somehelp I must say that sometimes we know that people do need help and we should not wait till they ask.

Also I wonder why is it or how is it that a church who is taking in multi-millions of dollars falling short of what they need. I do not know many churches of that size who do not have reserves. As member of a church that was falling short of it's budget by 60 grand I understand the worry and concern. What I could not figure out was we had 250 grand in reserves. Why did we moan and groan? Shouldn't we have been thankful that money was there for the rainy day. The Pastor had the right idea but the people could not see what God had provided. My next point will be if FBC JAX has the money and resrves then use it and be thankful.

Anonymouse said...

Dog,

I have to feel some compassion for your anonymous attackers. It must be hard to be in a position where one has to attack the messenger or admit that they've been duped by shysters because of they're own scriptural ignorance.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

From the FBC Jax website:

FBCJAX raised $460,188 last Sunday for the building fund (Main Auditorium renovations project). Almost half way to the goal of $1,000,000.

Pretty strong showing, getting 1/2 million in one Sunday in a special offering. The people of FBC Jax are mighty generous.

Anonymous said...

"Mac Uses 10 People Holding Dollar Bills to Show What "All the Upset is About" - It's Just "That Little 10% that God Requires""

Dog, do you give? I find most people that hate giving...they hate it because they never do it!

What about the widow's mite? What about "give and it shall be given to you"?

You always use "that's Benny Hinn, that's TBN, that's health and wealth"...NO...that's JESUS!!!

Be very careful about encouraging people to not give to the Lord! What are they going to use it for...to get another HDTV?

Where do you serve Dog? Do you help the poor? Do you give to widows and orphans?

Or is your gift to the Body of Christ the gift of criticism?

Man, you sure do exercise that Gift!

Anonymous said...

Lydia said; "Let's see, a member of the Body has to make a need known and then go fill out a bunch of papers, go through a process and then get help."

Maybe that is how you do it at your church, but that is not what happens at FBCJAX. As someone who has served in benevolence no one is REQUIRED to fill out a bunch of papers, go through the process and then get help.

The point about people knowing about each other, the times that I could have easily gone to a church benevolence committee for help I never did. Why-the thought never crossed my mind. That is true with a lot of folks. It never crosses their mind. Most people are very quite to others about their troubles. That is human nature.

WishIhadknown said...

Anybody know why the 10% figure is magic? Why is that the amount that is the difference between the wrath of God and the blessings of God?

Grace Christian said...

Ok, I am new to this. My husband and I were evangelists (music, etc.) for 20 years, many of those years we were members of fbcw, in georgia. we were disciplined because we asked questions, we were treated terribly and finally my husband rolled up his sleeves told them they were paper tigers and had to authority but what existed within those walls. we walked and many years later we now host a home church here in acworth, we have the privilege of serving and not asking to be served. we are watching people grow and live through pain and the ever changing circumstances of life. we are spiritual abuse survivors and I must applaud your courage and dedication to truth. thank you, i am a new follower, you are right on, don't stop, also....I know personally many of those you have mentioned and I feel the same as the guy from bellvue, it is so very sad.
grace and blessings.

Lydia said...

"Maybe that is how you do it at your church, but that is not what happens at FBCJAX. As someone who has served in benevolence no one is REQUIRED to fill out a bunch of papers, go through the process and then get help. "

Every mega church has a process and SOME sort of recording keeping when they hand out money. Nice try though.

You might want to take a look (doubt if you are allowed to see the real numbers, though) of actual giving in real money of benevolance compared to cost of renovations.


"he point about people knowing about each other, the times that I could have easily gone to a church benevolence committee for help I never did. Why-the thought never crossed my mind. That is true with a lot of folks. It never crosses their mind. Most people are very quite to others about their troubles. That is human nature."

That is not what I was talking about. In a TRUE Body of Christ, believers know one another and they know when another believer is having a hard time. They are brothers and sisters in Christ. Not aquaintances that see each other in a building called churchand must report to a benevolance committee to ask for help.

I can understand why you don't get that.

Lydia said...

"It never crosses their mind. Most people are very quite to others about their troubles. That is human nature."

BTW: Human nature? I thought we were believers, new creations?

They probably are "quiet" around other mega church members because it is certainly not cool to be needy at a mega church.

This I am quite familar with.

Keith said...

"Imagine they make $30,000 gross. Their rent or mtg/insurance/taxes is either $900 or $1350 per month for a modest home (depending on interest rate, of course). Their taxes are $300 per month; car $500 per month"

Easy solution. Move into a cheaper place, and get rid of the expensive care and drive a paid for 10 year old car. The solution is to not give to the cause of Christ. We should suffer for His cause. And yes, this includes the church as well. Forget about fancy buildings and send God's money to further God's Kingdom.

Bill, great post! Also, EnnisP, well done.

"Does anyone understand whats going on in the REAL WORLD FINANCIALLY."

Uh, yeah. God does. That does not exempt any of God's children from giving cheerfully. 10% is just a number. The NT concept of giving goes far beyond this. Most church people write out their tithe check the same as they write out their mortgage check. "Wow, I really hate doing this!"

"Just an old Gentile sinner saved by His blood."

Sounds like a saved Gentile making excuses to build bigger barns.

"But my concern in the video is what does it say about a ministry when at the person's lowest moment spiritually, financially, emotionally, etc., is they believe the first act of faith is to start tithing, as though this is one of the ultimate tests of one's faith in God to meet their needs?"

It certainly is not the "only" test, but certainly you will agree that giving obdiently is a test we have all faced in our spiritual walk. Giving obediently is not determined by a $ amount, it is determined by God. The widow gave all she had. Is that reckless? Is it reckless to preach that? Sounds like part of the "whole" counsel.

"I would tell her to NOT tithe, do not give any money to he church for the time being, that her family and her home and her kids and her electricity ALL COMES FIRST."

Really? I thought we were to put God first.

"So to answer your question, I felt like I could cheerfully give $400 based on all factors in my life. But now I give zero, zip, zilch to the church budget and instead am trying to pay back debt that I contractually owe."

Now that's the right spirit! GEEES!

Grace Christian

"we are watching people grow and live through pain and the ever changing circumstances of life."


Any coming to Christ? Supporting any missionaries? Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts? By the way, what kind of questions and what matter were they being asked? FBCW does amazing work in the community and is very competent in fulfilling the great commission. There are always 2 sides. It has been well said on this blog, but I can't remember which one. The ones who gripe about giving are usually the ones who do not faithfully and cheerfully give. Very rarely do those who understand the concept of "living in the offering plate" (an amazing message series preached by an amazing evangelist, not a mega church pastor) complain about giving to the One who gave Himself.

Junkster said...

Watchdog,
I read a tragic story today about a man I think you can relate to. He's a guy in Jacksonville who has experienced problems related to personal privacy, the internet, and being expelled from something without warning or a chance to defend himself.

Justin Bieber Kicked off Facebook

Maybe you should give him a call and tell him you sympathize.

Anonymous said...

"Maybe that is how you do it at your church, but that is not what happens at FBCJAX. As someone who has served in benevolence no one is REQUIRED to fill out a bunch of papers, go through the process and then get help. "

There is not a mega church on this planet that does not have some sort of tracking process in their benevolence ministry. They do not just set up an office and hand out dollars.

Matt

Mark | hereiblog said...

It's interesting how folks who preach on the tithe like this don't offer testimonies of if-then scenarios for other 'sins'.

If I stop sinning now, will God abundantly/materially bless me in that area in which I stopped sinning?

If I do not stop sinning in a particular area over any given time period will God punish me materially in that area?

Not that I could actually just stop sinning fully in any particular area of life.

Did God's people in the OT use the Law as a rewards system? hhhhhhhhhmmmmmm.....

Anonymous said...

Anon: October 8, 2010 10:02 PM

"Be very careful about encouraging people to not give to the Lord! " . . .

The Watchdog has a ministry right here on the internet . . .I believe God allowed his experience to happen only to serve and minister to thousands of us daily.

Not knowing him or his wife, I would say they are the type of people who would be first in line to help any of us if needed.

Not once has he ever said not to give to the Lord. The message is not to give it to PIRATES like Brunson who is has become a millionaire from the giving of the body of believers.

"Or is your gift to the Body of Christ the gift of criticism? ". . .

Believe me, Mac Brunson has a Ph.D in criticism and he does exercise that Gift - he loves to rant and scold.

BTW: I'm a believer of the Tithe and faithfully do so but long stopped giving to the Bank of First Baptist Jacksonville.

Someone posted Mack knows that folks raised "in the church" respond well to guilt and I agree. He will get his million!

The Other Tom said...

"Keith said...

""Imagine they make $30,000 gross. Their rent or mtg/insurance/taxes is either $900 or $1350 per month for a modest home (depending on interest rate, of course). Their taxes are $300 per month; car $500 per month"

"Easy solution. Move into a cheaper place, and get rid of the expensive care and drive a paid for 10 year old car. The solution is to not give to the cause of Christ. We should suffer for His cause. And yes, this includes the church as well."


So my family is supposed to live in a dump in order that ecclesiastical hacks such as Pope Mac I and his ilk can continue to draw their their multiple six-figure salaries and build their religious empires!!!!

Mere words cannot adequately portray my total disgust after reading garbage like this.

Keith said...

The other Tom.........

Are u saying people living in meager houses and driving meager cars aren't happy? How do you measure blessing? You sound jealous! Mere words can't describe how jealousy can eat at you.

You have zero credibility. Your silly name calling reaks of "I know you are but what am I" mentality. Are you enjoying 3rd grade? I know. Mac is not "playing fair "!

The Other Tom said...

Keith;

Listen chump, you don't know me from the man on the moon. So who do you think you are telling me what kind of lifestyle my family and I should lead???
What we have and what we do with OUR money is absolutely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. And neither is the business of whatever churchwe we may attend.

But one thing is for sure; I am NOT going to deprive my family just to statisfy ecclesiastical hacks such as yourself, Pope Mac, and all the other mega-church egomaniancs out there.

And your stupid statement, " I know you are but what am I" mentality. Are you enjoying 3rd grade? I know. Mac is not "playing fair "!" doesn't even make sense.

Keith said...

Ooooooooh other Tom.

Hit a nerve? Funny. You call me chump. You sound like a great person. Great role model. If somebody has more stuff than me then they are awful. Mac must be evil. Good advice. Give when "you" want too and how much "you" want too. Me me me me me. It's all about me.

The Other Tom said...

Keith, so how long have you been off your meds?

Keith said...

Wow other Tom. Original.

I give. You win. You are definitely smarter than me. Go whine somewhere else. I've realized how much time I've wasted on your idiocy. What are you doing on a Christian blog, anyway?

John Wylie said...

Anon October 8, 2010 8:59 AM,

"ATTN: John Wylie: What a refreshing view coming from a pastor. I have not always agreed with you, but, you are rapidly becoming a favorite. Thanks for your comment."

Sorry it took me so long to respond to you, but thank you, that's a real encouragement to me. I've learned a lot through this blog and many of its posters.

The Other Tom said...

Keith, each incoherant rant of yours is sillier than the previous one. I can tell that I am NOT dealing with a rational human being.

tikatu said...

"We should suffer for His cause."

Keith, can you say that Mac Brunson is suffering for the cause of Christ the way you describe? Y'know, the less expensive place, the 10 year old car?

If he--called by God to preach and be His "annointed"--isn't willing to suffer this way, why should I be?

Christ Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head. Others supported Him in His ministry on earth. (Some of them even women!)

Perhaps our mega-church preachers need to follow his example, and by doing so, provide a truly Christlike example to their flocks. There are preachers who do this; why not Brunson and his ilk?

(For the record, I already live in inexpensive housing and drive the 10-year-old car... if I tithed, I'd be further behind on my bills than I already am. As it is, only God knows where the money to repair that 10-year-old car and put a needed new roof on my inexpensive house is coming from. Certainly not from my neighborhood mega-church.)

Dee said...

Tom

I don't get it. People are starving in the world. Churches in third world countries have no buildings. Atheism is on the rise and there are few Christians in Europe. People are being sold into sex slavery in many countries.

And Mac wants clean wall hangings and spiffy pews. And some anonymous dude on this blog says you should be careful about telling people not to give money to God?????? God???? Giving to FBC Jax in this context has nothing to do with giving to God. It is giving to an American perversion of Christianity-a shiny building with self righteous people who believe they are saved because they have a fancy building, a bunch of people attending on Sundays and a loud mouthed, self centered man who fancies himself a pastor. Pharisee is a better word and the people of FBC Jax need to wake up.

Anonymous said...

Wonder how many of the mega preachers would really sell all they had, give it to the poor and then continue to preach (follow Jesus)? I think it might look like the experience of the rich man who just wanted to build bigger barns!!

Anonymous said...

Tikatu good points. I have never heard of or seen a mega preacher begging for bread. All of them live in the best homes, drive new cars, and work less than 25 hours a week. They take 10 week vacations and travel all over the world doing mission work. Real hard ACT to follow. Some of them don't like us catching on to their practices and policies. It makes them mad and angry. Hopefully some will awaken and get back to the 50 hours+ per week and live less extravagantly. But, it will take a real strong board of trustees to make this happen in my humble opinion. It also may take a real downturn in the tithe that keeps the business growing.

Keith said...

Tikatu - It is not for neither you or me to determine if or how much MB is suffering. Quite honestly, it is none of our business. Maybe you are in your situation because you have determined your earthly "stuff" is more important to you. If you can't tithe because you have too many bills, sell something. Cut off your TV. Get rid of the internet. Cut off your cell phone. etc. etc.

How much do you want MB to make? $20,000? 40,000? What is appropriate? How much of his income does he give back? Or is the fact of the matter, you don't care. You just want him poor. If he is doing well and the church is taking care of him as they should, you, just like "other Tom", start pitching a fit for the playing field to be leveled. "If I'm struggling, then bless God, the preacher ought to struggle to!" That's got to be in the Bible somewhere.

Here is a good way to determine the salary of a pastor. Based off of scripture in II Timothy, determine the average income of all the members that WORK, then double it.

Chew on that.


"and work less than 25 hours a week. They take 10 week vacations and travel all over the world doing mission work."

Anon - This is a moronic statement. You have no clue how much time they put in. And if you think a "mission" trip is a vacation, you obviously have never been on one. Again, YOU are failing the Great Commission.

The Other Tom said...

Keith;

With your continued ranting, I most conclude at least one of three possibilites:

1; You are nothing but an ecclesiastical hack who believes he has the right to tell us what to do with our finances; or,

2; You have allowed yourself to come under the total control of an ecclesiastical hack so as to do whatever he wants in the service of building his own particular religious empire; or,

3; You are just a total nutjob.

But whatever one is correct, one other thing is certain: Considering the way your have twisted and distorted my position, you are an unscrupalous and unprincipled liar who is devoid of any shred of personal integrity.

tikatu said...

Do I want Brunson poor? No. I want him to stop letting money rule his ministry and his life. (Yeah, his life, as evidenced by a lot of the things the WD has reported here about the land gifts, the cushy trips, the family members on the payroll.) The worker is worthy of his hire, but these mega-church pastors think they're more worthy than others.

A tithe would put my family behind on things like utilities, food, and gasoline. I pay my necessities before I pay any church. There are a lot of other people in the same boat. Do they love God any less? No. Are they robbing Him? Again, no.

There are also people in this boat who do tithe. One woman I know sells her blood to make ends meet and pay that tithe. Maybe I should do the same?

Lynn said...

This is starting to remind me of The Godfather. He gets your money or bad things could happen.

Lydia said...

This is starting to remind me of The Godfather. He gets your money or bad things could happen.

October 10, 2010 3:08 AM

BINGO! Perfect analogy!

So who is Mac selling protection from? God or Satan?

Anonymous said...

"Here is a good way to determine the salary of a pastor. Based off of scripture in II Timothy, determine the average income of all the members that WORK, then double it.

Chew on that.
"

That is complete ignorance. That passage has nothing to do with "salary" but "honor". Who gets paid single honor? The music director?

The ox is a metaphor taken way too far by some who have made ministry a career choice.

You don't get it, the "wage" is honor/respect. BTW: It says nothing about pastors, anyway. You are reading that into it as most do.

Where do you see an average taken? My goodness, who are you learning from, anyway? You need to run away and try being a Berean.

You might want to read Acts 20 for starters.

Lydia said...

"If he--called by God to preach and be His "annointed"--isn't willing to suffer this way, why should I be?
"

The more Keith writes, the more it is obvious he is biblically ignorant.

Try reading 1 John 2:

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[a] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.....

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[a] abide in Him.

Now, Keith...John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote these words to ALL BELIEVERS. Not just to pastors or elders.

You have also confused "anointed" with anointing. We ALL have "anointing" if we are truly saved.

However, Jesus Christ was the "Anointed One".

Keith, I do not know who is teaching you, but you should run away fast.

Anonymous said...

Keith you need to get a grip. You do not have the slightest idea of when these megas clock in and clock out. Yes, most of their so called mission trips are paid vacations and they make income off those that attend with them. You need to quit believing everything someone is telling you and verify your remarks. Double honor is something also you need a refresher course. The great commission is not up to your ideas. Its one on one witnessing something you obviously need some practice the way you come on here and harshly criticize those that disagree with you. Are you a mega too?

Anonymous said...

Keith some are called of God and some are self called. Remember Jesus telling them in judgement "depart from me I never knew you". And some of those were supposedly casting out devils and preaching in Jesus name. A lot of these so called men of God are using the name of Christ to enrich themselves and they are total apostates. They are on tv each and every day selling Jesus while lining their pockets with gold.

Lynn said...

I've always thought that Christians going on cruises, mission trips, all that so obviously showed what they were about. They don't even try to hide the hypocrisy, yet people still keep giving them money.

I guess whatever the people are getting from them is worth all the rest. So whatever the leaders are doing, it's all good with the people.

Keith said...

Where do I begin?

The other Tom has the hate of Satan in his heart. 'Nuf said.

"A tithe would put my family behind on things like utilities, food, and gasoline. I pay my necessities before I pay any church."

Do you have cable/satellite? Do you have a cell phone? I know you have internet. Are these things more important that giving to the Kingdom. I guess the answer is yes.

"One woman I know sells her blood to make ends meet and pay that tithe. Maybe I should do the same?"

No. Being obedient will do the job.

Lynn and Anon need a course in hermeneutics. Quit making scripture say what you want it to say. Just because you hate preachers doesn't distort scripture. You are not as important and you think you are. The Kingdom work has and will go on without you. Keep hating. It only hurts you. The "other Tom", I pray you go to church this morning and allow the Holy Spirit to do a miraculous work in your life. Salvation!

"Yes, most of their so called mission trips are paid vacations and they make income off those that attend with them."

You need to try to serve God instead of being such a careless, disgruntled, and worthless parasite that sucks the life out of anything good. It is really bad to go into foreign lands to share the Gospel. Jesus loves that.

What was the calling of Timothy? What was the calling of James?
What was the calling of Jude?

Anonymous said...

Wow. What a bunch of lunatics. I hope y'all are not members of any church right now. It is obvious you are not a part of "The Church". Y'all are unity's worst nightmare.

Good job, Keith. Keep it up.

Keith said...

"A lot of these so called men of God are using the name of Christ to enrich themselves and they are total apostates."

I agree. Tell me who they are. You can't because you don't have the power to discern that. That is why we should just keep serving and being obedient, including our giving, and allow God to do that which only He can, which is to sort out the wheat and tares.

Anonymous said...

Keith, I do not know who is teaching you . . .

October 10, 2010 10:14 AM
==============================
From my perspective Keith is obviously a member of FBCJ - perhaps a buddy of the preachers son (?) . . . perhaps a Sunday School teacher (?) . . .perhaps a deacon, greeter (?) . . . obviously he has disqualified the majority of (us) as believers here on the blog as trouble makers.

The more Keith spits the more he sticks his foot in his mouth. :>)

The friction and constant upsets happening now at FBCJ started with the arrival of Mac Brunson - he is very disappointed in the discontentment of his sheep and is fighting for his survival preaching we are ungodly Christians.

From what I read, we who blog are content and very happy and we don't live high on the hog like big Mac does!

Anonymous said...

So Keith, how many "mission trips have you been on. Tell the truth now!!You said: "And if you think a "mission trip" is a vacation, you obviously have never been on one. You are failing the Great Commission".

Makes one wonder what FORM the Great Commission takes to the megas. I would not call side shopping trips, visiting vacation sites, etc., a mission trip. Especially when it is paid for by the church, or a mission funded program. You also said: "the church should "take care of the pastor financially". (paraphrased). Most of these megas are millionaires. Nowhere in my Bible does it say we are to make the preachers RICH. If they are rich something is out of line. These are mere men, not gods. Nowhere does it say that we must make their family members rich. Churches are now treated as family businesses or enterprises. There is money to be made off the gullible sheep. And boy, do they BEAT it out of the sheep.

Anonymous said...

Keith...just how many mission trips have you been on? And did you pay your own way? How many were saved and what part did you have in their transformation.

Anonymous said...

Most of these megas sure can dish it out but cannot take it. They remind me of bullies in grade school that throw spitballs and then turn and point to someone else, its their fault don't you know. Its never their fault.

The Other Tom said...

It's bad enough that "Keith" is so arrogant that he tries to dictate to people what they MUST do with their own money. Then he deliberately and repeatedly LIES about what we are saying. Now he presumes to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit in attempting to dictate that someone is not even a Christian SOLELY on the basis of a few messages posted here!!

PLEASE tell us which church you are a member of so that I know NEVER to enter its doors. I want absolutely NOTHING to do with whatever type of work your "spirit" brings about.

Ben said...

"And why wasn't her church HELPING HER instead of TAKING from her."

Because no one at the church believed in giving. They believed in robbing God. Therefore the church had no resources to help.

For those who say the pastor should quit taking a paycheck and work as a tentmaker: do you say the same about all paid positions?

If the church did this, would you be first in line to help clean the buildings, take out the trash...

Not just on a one time basis but week after week?

Anonymous said...

I've noticed some of these pastors call anyone that disagrees with them "divisive". What they really mean is don't talk about anything going on in the church. If two or three people know something and discuss what they learn its "gossip". They are so easy to read and they just can't help picking on those that know something that they the pastor would not like to be public information. Shame on them for believing all the things that they do is "godly".

The Other Tom said...

If I had any inclination whatsoever to adhere to Keith's dictates, I would just go back to the
Roman Catholic Church. They have centuries of experience with a clergy answerable only themselves, and whose idea of the ideal lay crowd are those who just pray, pay, and obey. Why waste my time dealing with a cheap, two-bit Baptist preacher who is little more than a Papal wannabee over his own little domain, when I can have the genuine article in Roman priestcraft???

Anonymous said...

Keith, I hate to remind you but God allows the individual to discern what is the difference between wheat and tares even in the churches. Thats why a lot of the so called pastors leave the ministry and some actually go to prison where they belong. God does allow people to judge one another its called the JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

Anonymous said...

Keith, I agree with you "forget about fancy buildings". But, unfortunately, the big shots do not want anything 2nd or 3rd rate. It has to be FIRST CLASS ALL THE WAY. After all, they do have an IMAGE to uphold. How does it look to "other megas" when they visit? Must keep up the APPEARANCES. Along with the expensive dinners, etc. Providing for the widows, orphans, sick, and needy is not part of their agenda.

Anonymous said...

Keith, your anger is showing calling anyone a worthless parasite. You have no idea who is serving God so quit judging from a few words to which you disagree. Not everyone thinks alike and am I glad for that. You sound like you want everyone to be ROBOTS!!! AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Anonymous said...

Listened to the FBCJ 10:30 am service this morning.

Was laughable that Brunson injected into his message that he had been in Orlando during the week, bought himself a new shirt and tie - then visited the the Town Center where Miss Debbie purchased another new pair of shoes.

Just don't get it - people hurting with the economy and this man stands in a pulpit talking about himself buying personal possessions. No humbleness in thinking about the people who have no money for their basis needs.

Of course Miss Debbie will go on her Annual Christmas shopping trip to NYC in December. Ooop's, believe it's called a Mission Trip!

Then we have the annual Brunson Family Holy Land Tour with their personal friends. Wow, what a blessed life they live! Yep, this couple really works hard in their ministry at FBCJ. Unbelievable!

Anonymous said...

"For those who say the pastor should quit taking a paycheck and work as a tentmaker: do you say the same about all paid positions?"

Do you mean all positions in the world or just the ones in the Body?

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GmZfYhrWxg

Check out this clip about the Lie that you will be blessed if you tithe.

Keith said...

I have been on 3 mission trips. I have seen many come to Christ, although, I didn't do it, He did. I slept on the ground during one trip. I believe "the other Tom" probably is still Catholic because his theology is wacked out. All you people do is whine whine whine! Why don't you go do something productive. You obviously hate going to church, so go read to someone in the nursing home. Go serve in a shelter. You obviously love your money and treat it as your sustainer, so go do something for YOU. That is who you love.

"Keith, I hate to remind you but God allows the individual to discern what is the difference between wheat and tares even in the churches."

Book? Chapter? Verse?


"PLEASE tell us which church you are a member of so that I know NEVER to enter its doors. I want absolutely NOTHING to do with whatever type of work your "spirit" brings about."

I'm your pastor, chump. :)

Anonymous said...

Wow, now preachers apparently belong in prison. That's a new one. Man, this blog is a joke.

Ben said...

"Do you mean all positions in the world or just the ones in the Body?"

I was thinking of the body, those paid ministers and those in ministry support roles within the church.

Ben said...

"Was laughable that Brunson injected into his message that he had been in Orlando during the week, bought himself a new shirt and tie - then visited the the Town Center where Miss Debbie purchased another new pair of shoes"

You don't like Mac when he is in the pulpit and you don't like Mac when he is not in the pulpit. For shame a pastor might buy a shirt and tie or his wife might buy new shoes, again. How sinful it must be to have stuff. Are all the complainers ditching their stuff so they can really have a point to make?

Oh, I forgot, its not about the stuff its about how much he makes. How he lived in a friends home for a year. How he built a house in a gated community. All these sinful things.

Are the members of the church allowed to have a lot of stuff? Oh, its just pastors who are to be what you think Christ is like.

Give me a break.

One goods thing about Christ, if He came incarnate today He would head to your neighborhood to minister to you.

Anonymous said...

Ben, make your arguments from NT scripture. Not your opinion.

Perhaps you could show us the villa Paul built or the nice chariot John aquired.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Thankfully, there are many who are in the ministry for the right reasons. They can usually be identified by their humbleness. However, many are just looking to be more "successful" among their peers, building their own kingdom/ brand. To be the next Ed Young of Houston or Ed Young Jr.

Anonymous said...

Keith...I Cor 6 vs 2&3 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you are ye not worthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" I Cor 5 vs 12 "For what have I to do to judge them also that are without"do not ye judge them that are within?"

It appears that there is sufficient judging going on within the church. Thats why a lot of people are staying away and avoiding some of the emotional distress it brings to them and their family members. Sometimes even those that are spiritual are removed simply because they are labeled as "divisive". You can't even discuss Bible doctrines for making someone get upset with you and your belief on a particular matter. There are a lot of folks writing books about what the church is dealing with today and they are having a great time traveling all over their conventions making speaking engagements and selling their books. They choose all types of topics within and without the body of Christ to write. Calvinism, eternal security, how to have a happy home, how to develop your kids, how to grow a church, and yes even how to give speech lessons on delivery, poise, gestures, etc. I heard one mega say that even Satan would be given a second chance. Another one said there was no such thing as the lake of fire that when the individual dies thats it, no longer any existence. What the church has done is to have brought into its operation a mindset of handling the disputes between brethren like the world does. When this occurs it always winds up hurting someone unnecessarily. We are our brothers keeper whether we like it or not. Hope this assist with your question if only a brief answer.

Anonymous said...

Ben, the kingdom of God is within you. Jesus is already here inside saved people. He does not have to appear bodily again until the second coming. He is all seeing and all knowing. As Christians we are sealed with the Holy Spirit the day we accept Him as Savior and Lord. The word if you use is your sentence is incorrect. He is already here ministering to the Saints and also making intercession for us even from heaven. I'm glad we have that assurance and especially I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". I believe we all need that verse on a daily basis whether we blog or not.

The Other Tom said...

"I believe "the other Tom" probably is still Catholic because his theology is wacked out."

Still lying, Chump.

"I'm your pastor, chump."

Only in your own delusions, Chump

Anonymous said...

In all my experiences and they are many, many, many with people, I find that there all have at least two faces and maybe three. The one on the job, the one at church, and then the one at home. Sort of like the three faces of Eve. Its real hard to read some of these since most of us only see the one side and not the other two. Its similar to a fence sitter he looks around and over the area and determines which side is the safest to land. There are others who just sit on the fence and never get down. I'm for one glad we have this blog as we can air out our differences and try to hold each other accountable for our words...some encouraging and some discouraging.

Anonymous said...

In all my experiences and they are many, many, many with people, I find that there all have at least two faces and maybe three. The one on the job, the one at church, and then the one at home. Sort of like the three faces of Eve. Its real hard to read some of these since most of us only see the one side and not the other two. Its similar to a fence sitter he looks around and over the area and determines which side is the safest to land. There are others who just sit on the fence and never get down. I'm for one glad we have this blog as we can air out our differences and try to hold each other accountable for our words...some encouraging and some discouraging.

Anonymous said...

Mac has a house. Mac has a tie. Mac has a pair of shoes. Mac has a life... Mac Mac Mac.

Are you going to stand before God and complain to God about Mac?

No...you will give an account of why you chose to spend your time on this earth complaining 24/7 about Mac!

"Beware that root of Bitterness...it will defile many"

By the looks of this Blog, it has infected a lot of people!

Anonymous said...

WOW! I am reading the discourse between "the Other Tom" and "Keith" and this is turning into a blood bath.

Why are we attacking each other? If Mac has done something wrong he needs to be held accountable as any of us do. If he hasn't then logic serves that he doesn't need to be defended. If you support him, tell him and send your tithes and offerings to FBC JAX.
And by the way, I do believe in tithing.

This was a much better site when it didn't get personal and start name calling.

On a different note, I am reading and getting a sense that things at FBC JAX is not like it once was. By that I mean, that lines are being drawn in the membership and their is a beginning of taking sides those for Mac and those against. Is this the case? If so, how I hate to this. This was what Dr. Vines, once called a pastor's dream church when he left.

Anonymous said...

I, for one, hate that I missed this service on tithing. I have never been able to figure out how much one tenth is. And to go the extra mile and use visuals-why, oh why wasn't I there?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - yes, it truly was cutting edge.

All these years, I thought that a tithe or 10% meant "10 out of 100". And now Mac's genius showed that it is really just "1 out of 10". He is very smart, and on the ball.

:)

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

But he is good at math.

He did say last year that he was "tithing on the tithe", which is 11%.

I believe we should tithe on the tithe on the tithe, which would put us at 11.1%, or a tithe on the tithe on the tithe on the tithe, which would require oodles of faith, at 11.11%.

Math at church can be fun.

Sheri said...

"Math at church can be fun."

Especially when the megas get to count the cash raked in by their "giving units" every week. ;)

Anonymous said...

He has no shame.

Anonymous said...

Biblical tithing is an outlined, detailed, and very specific system in the Mosaic Law:(Lev.27:30-34; Dt.14:22-27). Kosher food items, and cattle is what was required.
Who was authorized to receive it is indicated:(Num.18:21-32). Disbursement of 3rd & 6th year tithe: (Dt.14:28-29). There are many other details involved....

The question, "What would Jesus do (WWJD)?" really intrigues me in this case: supposing HE was a carpenter:(and most certainly NOT a farmer or cattleman,)then, what would HE "tithe?" A tenth of each table or chair HE made! What about Peter, James, and John who were fishermen: what would they bring to the Temple, in accordance with the Law? Would they bring a "TITHE" of fish sandwiches? It seems to me, that they would have to break the Law, in their efforts, to keep the Law! I don't think Jesus would do that, DO YOU?