In David A. Croteau's book "You Mean I Don't Have to Tithe: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving" you will read in the preface just how Croteau came to question that his long-held view of the applicability of the Old Testament tithe to the Christian might be false.And Croteau gives a glimpse of just how sacred this doctrine is to denominational leaders and how those who question it are punished.
Croteau's testimony in this regard is very interesting to me, as I found his experience to be very similar to my own, and the same as others I've talked to. I've come to believe that many of the erroneous doctrines we are taught we easily believe them if they are taught "gently" and sincerely to us. Sometimes it is not until some bull-in-a-china-shop kind of preacher comes into our lives and kicks the doctrinal door down when we finally wake up and realize what we were taught all along was wrong.
Here are some excerpts from Croteau's preface that give a glimpse of how he started on his journey:
"I was driving to work in the fall of 1999 and listening to Christian talk radio. John MacArthur was in the middle of a sermon and he was explaining why the tithe was not applicable to Christians. I had never heard anyone actually challenge the applicability of the tithe before, so this took me totally by surprise."Most of us in Baptist pews have been taught this doctrine as fact for so long, even by well-meaning and sincere preachers. We have not heard SBC preachers dare to consider that the Old Testament tithing laws do not apply to Christians under grace. Preachers at best take a hybrid approach: that yes, we are obligated to tithe, but the New Testament says we should do the forking over joyfully and not under compulsion - in fact we should give more than the tithe as proof of just how darned joyful we are. As someone who was saved in a Southern Baptist Church as a teenager in college, I know the tithe has always been an expectation. It is planted into the minds of preschoolers. The Malachi 3:8-10 application to Christian tithing was never, ever to be questioned. If you don't tithe, you're a God-robber, a cheapskate, plain and simple. No one dares question the doctrine. You are expected to tithe - you check the box that says you are a tither on your committment card, and pray no one at church sees your tax returns to see you're only giving 4% on the gross.
But here is what is happening: as the new generation of preachers are beginning to become more brazen about the doctrine, taking it to the extremes now of saying non-tithing Christians are under God's judgment or a curse, or that God will take your money anyways through calamity if you do NOT tithe, blaming your family or financial misfortune on your lack of "faith" to "bring the tithe"...this is jolting more people to open their eyes and question the very basis of the doctrine that we have just accepted blindly for so long.
And thank God there are some men who are coming forth and not afraid to tell the truth. MacArthur is probably the most prominent one for a long time, as is Barna and Viola, but these are not Southern Baptists. Croteau is - he is trained in our seminary, and his research has the endorsement of Dr. Andreas Kostenberger at SEBTS.
Here is what Croteau says he did after he was challenged to question the tithing doctrine after listening to MacArthur's views on tithing:
"That night when I got home from work I read every passage in the Old and New Testaments that mentioned the tithe...at about two o'clock in the morning, I realized I was beat: I could not decipher what was being described. I called MacArthur's radio ministry and ordered the six part series on tithing. Thus began my journey into this subject; ten years later I have now completed this book."
So Croteau made this the topic of his Ph.D. dissertation at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Andreas Kostenberger approved the topic, and Croteau admits he was concerned over the opposition he would face from his writing:
"..I was not looking forward to the opposition with which the concepts would be received. I had already studied the topic for over five years and the resistance I had met with when discussing it with people was, at times, intense."How true. Bring up this topic in your Sunday School class. Tell your Sunday School class when you next discuss money matters, something like this: "Christians are not under the Old Testament law of tithing. Malachi 3 has been misused for decades by taking it totally out of context. We are to follow the New Testament model to be generous, but there is no prescribed percentage." Try it and see what happens.
During the course of his research Croteau says he reached out to two authors that are cited in his book, and their responses made him realize tithing was more of a "hot button" topic than he realized.
"The first man said that after he had written his book, every church he visited ostracized him because of his view. He was unable to get a job in ministry, so he went back to school and earned a Ph.D. in journalism and began his second career....The second man commented that he received so much disdain for his view that he quickly left the Baptist denomination."
My hope is that more and more Christians will be shocked by the false teachings in our mainstream churches on this doctrine, by men who have a vested financial and professional interest in the perpetuation of the doctrine. Christians must understand they are NOT obligated to blindly fork over 10% minimum to their church, with no accountability from church leadership. They can and SHOULD if they are so led by the Holy Spirit, but not under compulsion, or coercion, or scare tactics. But they are also free to be generous with their money as God leads them in doing His work through many avenues.
When Christians realize they are free to give as the Holy Spirit leads them to being generous and cheerful, then that is when the true church will use it's resources more for true Kingdom work, and less for building the kingdoms of men and preachers.
Croteau wraps up his preface by saying:
When Christians realize they are free to give as the Holy Spirit leads them to being generous and cheerful, then that is when the true church will use it's resources more for true Kingdom work, and less for building the kingdoms of men and preachers.
Croteau wraps up his preface by saying:
"I pray that this work will be received by gentle hearts open to the attempt I have made to inductively analyze Scripture's teaching on this complex, important, and very practical subject. My hope is that readers will interact with the content of this book and not attempt to guess at hidden motives or agendas, that ad hominem attacks will remain on the sideline, and that, through dialogue, the evangelical community will strive to come closer to the truth and thus bring glory to our God."We shall see in the coming years how Croteau's views are treated. He will likely face the same ostracizing as others, and the same cast of SBC characters will probably belittle his views from their pulpits/stages. You won't see Croteau at the next SBC pastor's conference...but perhaps it will be a grassroots effort. Let the lay people see the truth on tithing, sharing it with others. Let's call for transparency in church finances and if refused, perhaps the Holy Spirit will guide you into giving in other areas. And let's be sure to challenge pastors who teach wrongly on giving.
And over time we can make a difference.
113 comments:
Tom,
In order to understand the tithe is not for the NC, one has to understand the distinction of the Old and New Covenants. This is something that is NOT taught in most SBC churches. Most SB's think in terms of 'dispensations" not Covenants. And they bring certain OT laws into the NC.
In fact, the 10C do not even apply to us. (GASP) In fact, Jesus raised the bar from the 10C. Now, hate is murder and lust is adultery. We are now to have the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts us that hate is murder. We don't need a law.
There are people out there that think Sunday is the designated day for worship instead of just a tradition. They think we had to replace the Sabbath with Sunday. There is much more, but we need to stop and think about how much we have brought the law into our lives instead of being led by the Holy Spirit through the Word.
The NC is about giving generously to those in need and to further the Gospel. If we are honest, we cannot do that giving our money to these monstrosities we call a church. In many cases, we are only enabling greed and pride.
Lydia I remember Jerry Vines' teaching on the law consistently that it was not something that was bound on us that we needed to keep, because we couldn't keep it, but it was something that was used to break us, to make us see that we are totally lost and hopeless in sin without a savior. I don't think he really brought the law into the New covenant. But when it comes to the tithe, his view was that he couldn't see a Christian doing less under grace than that was required under the law, and so he and Homer both taught a tithe as a minimum. Makes sense, but it still put the 10% as the standard by which obedience is measured. But Vines or Lindsay never, ever, taught that if you didn't tithe, "God collects" through misfortune, or blamed health issues or family issues on lack of giving at the 10% level.
Dr. Dog-
Once again, thanks for this article, and for keeping us informed. This book looks like a must-read !
Tom, Just to set the record straight, I was not even thinking of Lindsay or Vines.
I was speaking in generalities of most traditional SBC churches who teach the tithe. Many even present the pastor as a sort of "office" like the Levite Priest instead of a spiritual function of ONE person in the Holy Priesthood of the Body.
Wonder how many SBC churches display the 10C? And why would we want the 10C in schools when we know it is the work of salvation in our hearts that truly saves and changes us. Not the law.
But you are right, Mac has taken this wrong teaching to a whole other level of heresy. I often think of the saints in prison in China suffering for His Name. Would Mac tell them it is because they did not tithe properly to the house church they met in?
Maybe the tithe for Baptists is like the issue of birth control is in the Catholic Church. Most Catholics are not willing to have large families, even though what the Church says is supposed to be God speaking. So they remain Catholics and simply ignore the ruling against birth control.
Don't the majority of Christians already ignore the tithing doctrine and give what they think is best?
And like you said, harping on the doctrine and getting really ugly about it does cause people to get out their Bibles and take a look for themselves, and they start questioning if it's even in there.
I think people enjoy being generous with their money-but there comes a time when they start to get curious as to exactly HOW their money is being used-whether they are tithing and/or giving.
Plus even for people who strongly believe in the tithe-is the church using your money as a storehouse from which to help others??? Give your tithe to a well-run storehouse who can show that it actually goes to people who truly need it-not salaries for a church staff or fancy buildings or salaries for a bureaucracy in the SBC.
I think the bigger issue is what is being done with your money-whether you are tithing or cheerfully giving or whatever. What happens to the money is the real question.
Actually maybe this whole discussion of tithing vs. non-tithing is a giant red herring. It keeps people arguing over that instead of asking what the money is going for.
WD, thanks so much for your blog. You put a lot time and effort here and cast a light on some of these traditions that have crept into the mainstream.
The sad issues of pastors becoming empire builders is a difficult and unpleasant topic, but it must be confronted.
Just wanted to say thanks, right here at Thanksgiving time. You deflect the slings and arrows with grace and that is admirable. Keep going with this, please.
Garlando
Miss Lydia,
Just a note.
In The New Testament Church, the local congregation, the Bible does establish two offices, and two ordinances, in the proper organization of the body.
The office of Bishop/Pastor
The office of a Deacon
The ordinance of Baptism
The ordinance of the Lord's Supper
1 Timothy 3:1 and 3:10
There is a difference in being "under the law", and staying under "Biblical Authority." That is one distinction that need never be blurred.
Tom,
Thanks for a less "aggravational tone" than what most are writing against those who teach the tithe. As I've said all along, some men teach it out of perversion, and some teach it out of honesty.
The fact is that those who teach it honestly, merely have come to a different conclusion than MacArthur, or Croteau, or whoever else.
That does not mean that our motives are to be impuned, but some of us clearly see the eternal principle (not law) of the tithe, and would be disingenuous if we did not teach it.
While we are not "under the law" we are certainly responsible to willfully submit our lives to the authority of Biblical Principles as they are discerned.
For those that need a refresher course in the OT, especially Malachi. In verse 1 chapter 1 you will notice who this chapter is written "The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi".
In verses 11-12 chapter two. "And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he will not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts".
Some would have you believe the fruit on trees and vines is cash rather than what it is... "fruit". When the Israelites saw the land of Israel it was flowing with milk and honey. A delightesome land. Only one time in the bible is the word delightsome land ever used.
These two points emphasize that God is speaking only to the nation of Isreal. America is not involved in this prophecy. Only God's chosen people will ever have their nation be called by all other nations blessed.
If seminaries and pastors would read the passage and believe what God said in His Word the pew sitters would/could get the message corrrectly. However, these Phd's place themselves above God's Word and claim another message which God never intended. Shame on them and shame on anyone who believes other than what is stated in the Bible.
This goes all he way back to the Garden of Eden when Satan asked Eve Did God say. Whenever man misinterprets the Word he is fooled into believing a lie...its just that simple. The Bible says it and I believe it not some other man who says he knows it in the Hebrew or Greek. Get over yourself if you think you know more than God. Humble yourself and ask God to forgive you and allow the Holy Spirit to be your teacher and not any other person. This is why it is SO IMPORTANT FOR EVERY MAN TO READ AND SEEK THE WISDOM OF GOD THROUGH HIS WORD.
Isn't is strange that some Baptist churches require deacons to put into writing that they will tithe before their taking the office of a deacon.
This is quite unlike Jesus who hired twelve men who left their jobs to become fishers of men with no strings attached but only death and pain to look forward to. Just thinking.
I was called to preach at 18. I first heard Mal."will a ,man rob God'" As a young Christian I just went along with the teaching that it was a command that had not been changed, A person was to tithe no ifs ands or buts. Now after 50 yrs spent as a pastor I look back and see it was easier to preach this as a money-raiser than to question it's veracity for a person inder grace. Even now the church i pastor gets nervous when i say the O.T. law is not incumbent on us. The treasurer is especially disturbed. I am not a monry-raiser but a sevant of our Lord. I have never pastored a church where we had a serious m oney shortage. The church must learn that the Lord meets our needs and not out wants. Pastors being very "human" want to have bigger buildings it helps the resume. I no longer care about an enhanced resume I yearn for "well done servant" Bojac
FBCJ members, you are in a mind control mind field. Crossing the border on the tithing doctrine has the potential to spread like wild fire so expect swift action if you wake up.
Bojac> Truer words were never spoken here so lately by a pastor. If a pastor can't trust God to allow the church he is called to minister and it goes bankrupt maybe he has the answer from God to quit the pastorate and find some other employment. Thanks for your honesty.
So....if the Pastor teaches on: Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.(Pro. 3:9-10)
— or if he teaches on Mal. 3:8
Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions"
or if he teaches on Matt. 23:23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Let's pull those verses out...they teach TITHING!!!
Lydia,
Have you ever heard of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant? The Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional. The Mosaic Covenant is conditional. Both still exist today. And, yes, I am a dispensationalist. God has not replaced the promises made to Abraham onto the church. You sound like you believe in replacement theology. I assume you are a woman. You have no place attempting to teach scripture over men. Sexist? If it is then God is sexist.
I was speaking in generalities of most traditional SBC churches who teach the tithe.
_____________________________
Are you saying that you know what most traditional SBC churches teach? How many do you attend? Do you go from church to church charting teaching philosophies. You have no authority to make such a stupid statement. (Maybe you do have authority to make stupid statements. Seems like it comes easy to you) I guess you should change you name from Lydia to SBC Guru. It is good to know that we have someone out there that is in touch with the thousands of SBC churches out there. You must either be a superhero or extremely old to have visited all of the SBC churches out there. Wow!! I'm impressed!
That does not mean that our motives are to be impuned, but some of us clearly see the eternal principle (not law) of the tithe, and would be disingenuous if we did not teach it.
While we are not "under the law" we are certainly responsible to willfully submit our lives to the authority of Biblical Principles as they are discerned.
___________________________
Wow!!!!! Finally some sanity. Whoever you are, thank God for you!
Isn't is strange that some Baptist churches require deacons to put into writing that they will tithe before their taking the office of a deacon.
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Uh, no!
You may have mentioned this already but it needs mentioning again. The SBC itself is assisting us in opposing the tithe teaching.
It is publishing a book edited by Dr Croteau called Perspective on Tithing, Four Views. Order it now and get a large discount. It will not ship until May.
To me this is a miracle to see Broadman and Holman place such a book in their own Lifeway bookstores which has a strong biblical presentation of our viewpoint. Praise God. Praise God. Praise God.
Russell, see the post prior to this one.
WD-
I love it when you reference lessons or sermons from both Vines and Lindsay (as you did in a comment here). I was never a member of FBCJAX, but I loved and admired Dr. Lindsay and still do Dr. Vines.
I would love to encourage you to post, perhaps once a week, about the lessons you learned from these men over the years. I think it would be refreshing to see their influence on your life and the church.
Your little "snipets" of these men are something that I really enjoy!
Kyle
"God has not replaced the promises made to Abraham onto the church. You sound like you believe in replacement theology."
Here is another view for the readers here to consider:
http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/zens/israel.htm
God has not "replaced" the covenant with Abraham. He fulfilled it as He is always faithful on His side of any Covenant.
" I assume you are a woman. You have no place attempting to teach scripture over men. Sexist? If it is then God is sexist."
Sorry, you are "anonymous"so I did not know.
I'm not a Baptist, nor a preacher nor a pastor; I'm not even an American, (I want to make it clear though that I'm not here as an illegal) and I enjoy living in this country that God has blessed. I'm just a follower of Jesus Christ and congregate in a Christian Church (non-denominational) in Long Island, NY.
My personal opinion and understanding of tithe is based on the following two scriptures:
Mathew 23: 23 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens,[g] but you ignore the more important aspects of the law, justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.
This scripture shows us that Jesus didn't say, "You don't have to tithe because it's part of the law", No, he said, "You should tithe, yes".
The second scripture I want to bring to your attention is:
Deut 14:22-23 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. ..., so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
This is the purpose of tithing, it's not a matter of giving to God, he's the owner of the universe, including all the gold and silver, he doesn't need our money. The purpose is for us to learn to revere the Lord.
If you don't want to learn to revere the Lord, then, don't do it, it's that simple.
What I agree with you is that this has to be a personal understanding of God's purpose of tithe, and not something that if I don't comply I will be expelled from my church. At least the church I go to, they teach you the above but they don't condemn you if you don't give your tithe. At least they teach you the blessings you miss.
Last but not least, when I started tithing back in 1992, I was tested to the point that I wanted to give up tithing, however I didn't. The result? God has blessed me ten folded, now I have 10 times more that what I had then and I don't have any debt (except for my mortgage). I continue to tithe and he continues blessing my life. The promise given to Israel in Malachi is true for me too, the word says that now (because of Jesus' sacrfice) I'm a son of God, part of a holy nation and chosen people.
Nice reading your articles.
God bless you.
Jose
I'm not a Baptist, nor a preacher nor a pastor; I'm not even an American, (I want to make it clear though that I'm not here as an illegal) and I enjoy living in this country that God has blessed. I'm just a follower of Jesus Christ and congregate in a Christian Church (non-denominational) in Long Island, NY.
My personal opinion and understanding of tithe is based on the following two scriptures:
Mathew 23: 23 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens,[g] but you ignore the more important aspects of the law, justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.
This scripture shows us that Jesus didn't say, "You don't have to tithe because it's part of the law", No, he said, "You should tithe, yes".
The second scripture I want to bring to your attention is:
Deut 14:22-23 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. ..., so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
This is the purpose of tithing, it's not a matter of giving to God, he's the owner of the universe, including all the gold and silver, he doesn't need our money. The purpose is for us to learn to revere the Lord.
If you don't want to learn to revere the Lord, then, don't do it, it's that simple.
What I agree with you is that this has to be a personal understanding of God's purpose of tithe, and not something that if I don't comply I will be expelled from my church. At least the church I go to, they teach you the above but they don't condemn you if you don't give your tithe. At least they teach you the blessings you miss.
Last but not least, when I started tithing back in 1992, I was tested to the point that I wanted to give up tithing, however I didn't. The result? God has blessed me ten folded, now I have 10 times more that what I had then and I don't have any debt (except for my mortgage). I continue to tithe and he continues blessing my life. The promise given to Israel in Malachi is true for me too, the word says that now (because of Jesus' sacrfice) I'm a son of God, part of a holy nation and chosen people.
Nice reading your articles.
God bless you.
Jose
Just a note.
In The New Testament Church, the local congregation, the Bible does establish two offices, and two ordinances, in the proper organization of the body.
The office of Bishop/Pastor
The office of a Deacon"
CMW, You will not find the word "office" in the Greek. It was added by the translators laboring under a church state mentality. These are functions within the Body, The Holy Priesthood.
"There is a difference in being "under the law", and staying under "Biblical Authority." That is one distinction that need never be blurred."
I have absolutely no problem with Biblical authority. The only authority any of us have within the Body is scriptural truth. A man conferred title is just that, a man conferred title.
I believe the Word is inerrant. I do not, however, believe the translators were. I know that ALL believers, regardless of gender, are given the Holy Spirit who illuminates the truth of the Word to them if they are sincere, study and pray diligently. IF they are truly saved.
Blessings.
or if he teaches on Matt. 23:23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Let's pull those verses out...they teach TITHING!!!
November 23, 2010 3:22 PM
Actually, this is before the Cross, resurrection and the church age.
Here, Jesus is teaching about hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the Jews. He is not teaching it that we should tithe our herbs.
Look at this one that is before the Cross, too:
24 When they had come to Capernaum,[g] those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”
25 He said, “Yes.”
And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”
26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.”
Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money;[h] take that and give it to them for Me and you.”
The "sons" are free.
"I would love to encourage you to post, perhaps once a week, about the lessons you learned from these men over the years. I think it would be refreshing to see their influence on your life and the church. "
No offense but isn't it time we learned from Christ and the Inspired Words from the Holy Spirit instead of always listening to men? Jesus said He was sending the Best Teacher. Why is it we do not believe that?
"Let's pull those verses out...they teach TITHING!!!"
Yes they do! Three tithes (of food) so that the Israelites could feed the Levitical priests (who weren't allowed to own anything), the poor and the widow, and for the mandatory religious festivals.
Where are the verses that teach giving 1/10 of your money to the local church that doesn't have a storehouse or a priest?
"Wow!!!!! Finally some sanity. Whoever you are, thank God for you!"
The definition of sanity is not someone who agrees with you. Sorry.
"That does not mean that our motives are to be impuned, but some of us clearly see the eternal principle (not law) of the tithe, and would be disingenuous if we did not teach it."
It depends on the situation. Some people's motives deserve to be impugned when it is clear that they are preaching unbiblical doctrine that is motivated by greed.
If the tithe is eternal, then why does the church teach one tithe when it is crystal clear that the Israelites paid 3 in the OT?
It is disingenuous to pretend to teach that the tithe is eternal and then not teach the same principles that are taught in the OT.
"While we are not "under the law" we are certainly responsible to willfully submit our lives to the authority of Biblical Principles as they are discerned."
Of course the tithe was a part of the law. 2 Corinthians 9:7 is the NT model of giving.
But even if that was true, what you teach about the tithe does not live up to that standard.
Sorry to be so dense but I do not see how:
Matt. 23:23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Teaches tithing.
Seems to me it teaches alot more and that the religious teachers of our day are still missing the point.
Another thing that confuses me is Malachi clearly states that you have robbed me of tithes (plural) and offerings. So how is it in the preaching of tithing the “s” is carved off of tithes and they leave “and offerings” out completely. Therefore, correct me if I am wrong, but if you are going to use Malachi in teaching tithing do you not have to teach the whole scripture and that brings the total to over 23% and not 10. Maybe I do not understand what I and reading but the word seems plain to me. If you are not giving more than 23% then you are not obedient.
"You won't see Croteau at the next SBC pastor's conference...
Bravo for Mr David A. Croteau's uncompromising stand for the “true-truth.” He needs the earnest prayers of all true Christians because of the more than probable devilish onslaught against him that no doubt he has to contend with. He needs to know that he has not been abandoned by God or by his brothers and sisters in Christ from around the world...
It would be excellent, God glorifying indeed, if Al Mohler got behind David (goliath slayer) and made sure he is invited to the next pastor’s conference to speak on this topic, it needs to be thrown wide open for all to see and hear, to see and hear that "tithing" is NOT a Christian doctrine. Christian Post.com and the Baptist Press and even the secular media should use their influence to air this topic openly and forthrightly and show how truly binding and legalistic "tithing" is. Rick Warren (America's worst pastor/shepherd and cleverest, smartest, knowledgeable deceiving Scripture Twister bar none) and his Purpose Drive® Crew will do all within their power no doubt to hinder it. The Purpose Driven™ influence reaches out to the furthest, far flung corners of the earth, awful. Wicked!!! Actually, Mr Warren and his followers need urgent prayer too.
God bless and protect Mr. Croteau. Thanks.....
“I am convinced that one of our grave defects today, is a most serious diminishing of the good old custom of private reading of the Bible. Between the growth of Christian periodicals and books, I have a strong impression that Bibles are not read as much and as carefully as they were two hundred years ago.
I am well aware that there are more Bibles in Great Britain at this moment, than there ever were since the world began! There is more Bible-buying and Bible-selling, more Bible-printing and Bible-distributing, than there ever was! But all this time, I fear we are in danger of forgetting--that to have the Bible is one thing--and to read it privately ourselves quite another!
"I am afraid that the Bible of many a man and woman in Great Britain is never read at all. In one house, it lies in a corner--as stiff, cold, glossy and fresh as it was, when it came from the bookseller's shop! In another house, it lies on a table, with its owner's name written in it--a silent witness against him day after day! In another house, it lies on some high shelf, neglected and dusty--to be brought down only on grand occasions, such as a birth in the family--like a heathen idol at its yearly festival. In another house, it lies deep down at the bottom of some box or drawer, among the things not wanted, and is never dragged forth into the light of day--until the arrival of sickness, or death! These things are sad and solemn. But they are true.” - Ignorant formal Christianity (J. C. Ryle, "What Is Needed?" 1895)
J. C. still speaks today, and to all Christians, everywhere, I reckon. Read the whole essay, right this minute, pronto....good, I can see you followed my loving, graceful, clear instructions, please send all 91% tithes to live off 9%Rick oooppps, I mean errrrmm.....
November 23, 2010 4:17 PM, your post was very unkind. If your are a Christian it was even more uncalled for. Lydia, I always enjoy your posts and each time I read one think how enjoyable it would be to attend church with you. I think some who post here are confusing tithing with giving. Those who don't believe tithing is an obligation aren't saying Christians don't have to give; they're simply saying there is no obligation for a specific amount, that all giving is only to come from a willing and grateful heart out of what God has blessed them with. It's not hard to understand: we give because God has been good to us, not because we "have to" give. People can agree to disagree but anon 4:17 PM it's not necessary to be rude or insulting about it simply because you disagree with someone else.
Watchdog, at this time of Thanksgiving I want to say how thankful I am how God is using you to shed light on many things, and for how gracious you are to everyone who posts. Blessings to you and your family for letting God use your experiences to help us learn many lessons. May your family have a blessed Thanksgiving.
D
Ms. Lydia
The "office" of pastor/bishop is indeed a Biblical position within the Proper Organization of the Church.
I know of persons who figure the tithe down to the penny! To me that is legalistic and does not represent "hilarious" giving.
Florence in KY
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ...
If you don't want to tithe...don't tithe! Why crucify those of us who trust God? I can do more with 90% and God as a partner than I can with 100%! Yes I drank the koolaid and it tastes great!
I am Southern Baptist and I am Pre-trib, I don't drink alcohol,and I tithe 10% my GROSS income.
Call me stupid, call me brain washed, call me old fashioned...I call myself....BLESSED!!!
"I don't drink alcohol,and I tithe 10% my GROSS income."
Boy, I feel like a nice cold ale or two. Maybe tonight, or maybe tomorrow, who knows...
Try "tithing" 91% of your "GROSS" and try living on 9% of your net, your fishing net....
Make sure you get that 91% off your dill and cumin and mint and parsley and rosemary and thyme and sage and carrots and spuds and corn and chickens and hogs and peas and eggs and cabbages and cauliflowers and sunflowers and milk and ya git oopppss I mean ya grits and ya moonshine and um um um, yes those too.....any more hillbillies down south?
The "office" of pastor/bishop is indeed a Biblical position within the Proper Organization of the Church.
November 23, 2010 9:05 PM
You might want to check an interlinear. There is no "office". You can believe it if you want. Many have believed wrong things because of tradition. And, of course, for centuries many in charge have wanted people to believe it is an official "office". Not so long ago, we had divine right of kings who were the earthly authority over the church.
Since you believe there is such a "proper organization of the church", perhaps you could tell me the names of the people in these important "offices" at Corinth. Philippi? Galatia? So why weren't ALL the letters addressed to these "officials" of the church if it is so "proper"?
Perhaps you missed it but these are spiritual functions within the Body. An elder looks more like Matthew 5 than a government official or CEO.
Many choose to follow men. It is a huge problem.
Douglas, I hardly ever recommend "Christian" books because there is so much twisting and false teaching out there but I can recommend JC Ryle's book called "Holiness" for those who really want to go deep in understanding sanctification.
"November 23, 2010 4:17 PM, your post was very unkind. If your are a Christian it was even more uncalled for. Lydia, I always enjoy your posts and each time I read one think how enjoyable it would be to attend church with you."
Thank you, anon. It rolls off my back anymore. I think once we really know who we are in Christ, you just pity people. Satan is delighted that so many want to shut up half of all believers from proclaiming the truths of God's Word to anyone regardless of gender.
So many are in love with pulpits, stages, organizational charts, titles, etc.but not our Lord.
There are so many I have "met" on blogs I would love to study the Word with 1 Corin 14 style. :o)
Blessings to you.
"If you don't want to tithe...don't tithe! Why crucify those of us who trust God? "
This is the whole point. Tithing is NOT trusting God. It is trusting in a system and formula. Being led by the Holy Spirit may require more money and inconvenience. You might be called to live a life of near poverty. You might be led to sell off assets to help others.
You have also ignored Matthew 6 where we are not to brag about what we give. The fact that you feel smug and about your 10% says volumes.
And you have ignored the truth that the tithe is 23%. Not 10%.
Discussing whether the "tithe" is for the New Covenant is not crucifixtion and to suggest such is a mockery of the Cross.
I suppose that the apostle Paul was not a tither according to some who post. He was beaten with rods, thrown into the deep, given 39 stripes three times, put in prisons, slapped around, almost eaten by lions, and finally had his head removed all because he failed to tithe. The windows of heaven being opened to him account of his not tithing. How else would these bad things have happened?
Lydia,
I've no idea why some 'anonymous' folks come by Dog's blog and make their ridiculous drive-by attacks spewing nonsense.
I don't know how many women post to this blog, but I'm guessing there aren't a huge number. However, I've had the same grossly ignorant charge made against myself about teaching scripture to men. I'm sure you already know this, but it's a charge made out of desperation or just plain mean-spiritedness. Anyone who has read the scriptures knows full well that women did indeed teach the scriptures to men. We can provide absolute evidence that Priscilla did indeed teach scripture to men in their home. Paul speaks highly of the work of Priscilla in Acts 18-26, Romans 16:3, 1 Corinithians 16:19, 2 Timothy 4:19.
I'm probably in the minority among Christian women because I do not think women should preach behind the pulpit. But there are many other places where they can and should if they have the gift of teaching.
It is really quite sad that some men, who cannot support their own beliefs adequately, then attack a woman who can. I wonder what kind of husbands they make by trying to lord it over a woman that they are superior. Of course, the Bible doesn't say they are superior, but they don't want to read that part.
Blessedly, most of the men who post here do respect women and treat them kindly.
I enjoy your posts very much. I'm proud to call you Sister.
11:04PM: 'You said; "Why crucify those of us who trust God". To begin with, I believe the Crucifixion is Holy and not to be "casually" used in the term you did. I understand your meaning but not your callous ignorance.
Now, to the substance of your ignorant remark..you are assuming that the rest of us don't "trust God". Mistake!!!! We TRUST GOD....it's the money grabbing preachers we don't TRUST. GOT IT?
Forgive my sarcasm, but, this is as kind as I can be in the face of such ignorance.
The writing on the wall ...
NYT > At Colleges, Women Are Leaving Men in the Dust
"I don't drink alcohol,and I tithe 10% my GROSS income."
At my former church, this, plus promising to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night will get you right into the deacon fellowship! No further questions asked.
Unless you're a woman of course.
Slightly off topic: I attended a "mega church" for many years. I was SAVED as a teenager. I learned much from some very spiritual, genuine preachers (in the past, most are dead now). One major reason I don't attend now is, I am bored with the biblical ignorance of the men in the pulpits. They don't know the Bible, they don't believe the Bible, they don't preach the Bible, and I find most of the time the Bible is misquoted and used for show, or advancement of the preachers agendas.
Quite often, the transformation of a man when he steps behind a pulpit is anything but spiritual. Many take on the persona of an "all knowing" pontiff trying to convince others of how smart he is. They "talk down" to members. (Brilliant me, stupid you, do what I say, type of thing). The attitude of "I went to the seminary, you didn't what could you mere member posssibly have learned after years of study"? Well we know where study at the seminary will get you! You can always see the arrogance when they say something like..."In the Greek it says", or "the Greek word for such and such is". Who cares....I speak English!!! And again a true sign is to quote history or the latest pagan book the preacher has read. I leave the church bored and upset that I wasted my time....AGAIN. So I just don't go. I read my Bible and the Holy Spirit is the best Teacher of HIS Word. As to church and fellowship...which is not a reason to attend church,(it is a by-product) you are supposed to LEARN something about Gods word, you are supposed to WORSHIP God, not meet up with your pals for lunch. Again, as to fellowship, I don't misss them and they don't miss me. We're even. I have Christian friends that feel just like I do. Church is a total waste of time, and in most cases money. "Study to show THYSELF approved".
Eye-opening article, Thy Peace. Thanks for sharing it.
Women are doing better than men in college....hmmmm....strange, because I heard that the men are really doing better at the Southern Baptist seminaries than women are, imagine that! :)
Why or is it necessary to join a local church?
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1359-7.htm
Answer from John MacArthur
"If you don't want to tithe...don't tithe! Why crucify those of us who trust God? "
Ok first of all we are not here to crucify anyone and it is not tithing we object to. I think the goal of this forum is to be able to have open and honesty discussions without fear of personal attacks, letters of reprimand, charges of offenses and trespass orders. This is a forum where all views are able to be expressed.
Second, if God through the Holy Spirit has directed you to give 10% of your income to your local church then by all means do it and be blessed by it. However, if God through the Holy Spirit has directed you to give another amount that I cannot and no one else can tell you then you are living in disobedience.
Third, I congratulate you on your ability to discipline your financial life. It is, however, extraordinarily presumptuous of you equate tithing with trusting God. Just because you have disciplined your financial life in such a way as to be able to give 10% to your church does not mean you trust God any more or less than the approximately 97% who do not give 10%. We (me included) are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God.
Fourth, it is not tithing or giving that we are arguing against, it is the veracity with which the modern day preachers preach tithing that we object to. These preachers equated tithing with salvation and that is not so. God is not a pagan god who requires his tribute to prevent bad things from happening to us.
In the end we are all alike; none of us are any different from anyone else. We are all penniless, corrupt sinners in need of a savior which God has provided through His grace and His name is Lord Jesus Christ, who died and was buried and rose again that we can have eternal life through his atonement. There is nothing and I mean nothing you can do to earn it, destroy it or buy it. Like it or not, it is a free gift available to all.
Lydia, as always, you’re posts are insightful and well reasoned and I thank you for them.
During the first part of the 20th Century most seminaries taught Post Millennialism. In other words the church was bringing in the Kingdom and that everything was getting better. Then WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Russian invasions into Afganistan, wars all over the universe and our invasion into Iraq and Afganistan simply put that belief aside. So because some group believes in a certain idea doesn't make it correct. I heard a wise man state one time if the majority is for something you had better go with the minority. Possibly a lot of the pew sitters are just mixed up by their trusting their leaders, however they are catching on fast especially on this notion that the tithe is required today.
Speaking of Dr Stanley suggest you read his book "Eternal Security". It is the most up to date and applicable book regarding eternal life that I have ever read. Look for it in your nearest book store.
Anon said: Try "tithing" 91% of your "GROSS" and try living on 9% of your net, your fishing net...."
Do not laugh too hard anon. Many men have done just that. Actually they tithed 90% and lived off the 10%.
Were these guys maligned and scoffed at. You bet, but they did it anyway! YES! They did it out of a grateful heart and they did it with cheerfulness.
Jose, I liked your testimony also. The problem we have here is a "failure to communicate!" You have those that strongly believe in giving 10% or more like Jose and the men I previously mentioned. And then you have those that say "bunk" and that tithing is blasphemy.
Like some have said in recent posts that many men who teach storehouse tithing passionately believe it and others that teach being a cheerful giver passionately teach that. I do not think anyone should be maligned based on what they feel in their heart is the right thing to do.
The two men I am specifically referring to have done incredible things for the Kingdom. One is still living in his 90's and the other is in Glory. Both gave God the controlling interest in their companies and their lives and were and continue to be blessed beyond measure.
Does anyone know who these men are?
They were truly thankful not only at Thanksgiving, but everyday of their lives and used and their legacies and the works they started continue to be blessed financially because of their example.
I can name many more men that have done the same thing, but most would just say that they were lucky and not blessed for their faithfulness.
Happy Thanksgiving and lets give thanks for what He did on the cross for us.
Anonymous November 23, 2010 4:10 PM said...
Lydia,
Have you ever heard of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant? The Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional. The Mosaic Covenant is conditional. Both still exist today. And, yes, I am a dispensationalist. God has not replaced the promises made to Abraham onto the church. You sound like you believe in replacement theology. I assume you are a woman. You have no place attempting to teach scripture over men. Sexist? If it is then God is sexist.
Thanks, Anon, for a good laugh.
As evidenced by your own stated beliefs, you would have a much better understanding of the Bible if Lydia were your teacher.
"Quite often, the transformation of a man when he steps behind a pulpit is anything but spiritual."
Yepper. Christa and other survivors can certainly tell you a few stories!
Keep up the good work
“I do not think anyone should be maligned based on what they feel in their heart is the right thing to do.”
True!
But neither should we malign others who believe differently than we do, especially from the pulpit.
The definition of sanity is not someone who agrees with you. Sorry.
___________________________
Sanity - the quality or state of being sane; especially : soundness or health of mind (Websters)
I am well aware of the definition of sanity, my friend. Again, thank God for you.
If you don't want to tithe...don't tithe! Why crucify those of us who trust God? I can do more with 90% and God as a partner than I can with 100%! Yes I drank the koolaid and it tastes great!
I am Southern Baptist and I am Pre-trib, I don't drink alcohol,and I tithe 10% my GROSS income.
Call me stupid, call me brain washed, call me old fashioned...I call myself....BLESSED!!!
__________________________
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lucidity is a blessed place to be!
Douglas.....You're an idiot!
Since you believe there is such a "proper organization of the church", perhaps you could tell me the names of the people in these important "offices" at Corinth. Philippi? Galatia? So why weren't ALL the letters addressed to these "officials" of the church if it is so "proper"?
______________________
The fact that they are not mentioned in Scripture does not mean that they do not exist.
Again, Lydia, stop trying to teach over men. It is unbiblical!
Hey, Lydia and Katie. Should we remove I Timothy 2:12 - "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
Please practice the latter of this verse.
Anon 3:59 PM. What about all the females on church pulpit committees? They select along with males who the next preachers are. What about those, huh?
Do you use that verse with your mother? or better yet with your wife? I bet that works out great for ya!
Pilot didn't listen to his wife either and look at how that worked out for him.
Ok, if 3% tithe and 97% don't, whose the crazy?
Hey, Lydia and Katie. Should we remove I Timothy 2:12 - "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
*****
How sad, that you like so many others, who claim to read and understand scripture cannot understand context.
Neither Lydia or myself are standing behind a pulpit. So here we are. Are you suggesting that Paul was schizophrenic? He commends Priscilla for her work in teaching the scriptures to a man and then takes that back and says she cannot preach. That would be your conclusion, but since you are clueless, let me education you. Paul was being completely consistent.
The Greek word used in 2 Timothy is the word for 'allow'. It is used in the New Testament to refer to allowing someone to do what he desires. Paul may have been addressing a real situation in which several women in Ephesus desired to be public preachers. At that time the word to teach implied an important or official function in the church. Thus Paul is prohibiting women from filling the office and role of a preacher. He is NOT prohiting them from teaching in other appropriate conditions. That is WHY these scriptures are not a contradiction of scripture: Acts 18-26, Romans 16:3, 1 Corinithians 16:19, 2 Timothy 4:19.
So, next time you try to belittle a woman about scripture, try using a little proper exegesis. After all, you have just shown that a woman had to explain the Bible to you. Who knew that women would dare to read and understand scripture?
You need some prayer and a huge dose of humility.
Answer about tithing and Biblical giving from John MacArthur. Pretty much says it all.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-1-5.htm
Of course, I know what is true so don't confuse me with the facts.
WishIHadknown,
Absolutely, John MacArthur is spot on. I use his website all the time. The sheer number of free resources is amazing. I also use J. Vernon McGee's site.
I'm looking forward to this new book.
God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving.
"Hey, Lydia and Katie. Should we remove I Timothy 2:12 - "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.""
You need to do a serious word study on authenteo used once in the NT in that passage. If the Holy Spirit was communicating "authority over" there are clear Greek words to have chosen. You might also want to check the grammar which is singular. I suppose you think we are saved by bearing children, too. A works salvation for women, only. It is also helpful to understand the cult of Artemis in Ephesus that taught that Eve was created first. Ephesus had the largest Temple of Artemis in the world at that time.
" Anyone who has read the scriptures knows full well that women did indeed teach the scriptures to men. "
Something most people miss is that there is NO prohibition to women teaching or leading men in the OT. Otherwise Huldah and Deborah would be in grievous sin. Yet, after the cross, we are to believe there is a new more legalistic law for women only.
"The fact that they are not mentioned in Scripture does not mean that they do not exist. "
I am sorry, I am confused. I thought you described them as "officials" and as "proper organization". If that is iron clad then I would think Paul would have advised only these "officials" of the church to handle all the problems he discusses in ALL the letters. Yet, most of the letters are addressed to the entire Body.
I think you confusing a spiritual function within the Body that models a lowly servant who is a mature believer with a king-like position of power over others in the Body.
Katie, what you have done is called eisigesis not exegesis.
Anonymous said...
Douglas.....You're an idiot!
November 24, 2010 3:49 PM
My wife says the same thing some times. I wonder if I can stop beating her? Am I.....
It would make him pull his hat over his eyes!
(Thomas Brooks, "The Privy Key of Heaven" 1665)
All Christians have their secret sins. Secret not only from other men--but from himself! It is but natural for every man to err, and then to be ignorant of his errors. Every man's sins are beyond his understanding. There is not the best, the wisest, nor the holiest man in the world--who can give a full and entire list of his sins.
"Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults." Psalm 19:12
"Who can understand his errors?" This interrogation has the force of an affirmation: "Who can?" No man! No, not the most perfect and innocent man in the world!
O friends! who can reckon up . . .
the secret sinful imaginations,
the secret sinful inclinations,
the secret pride,
the secret blasphemies,
the secret hypocrisies,
the secret atheistical risings,
the secret murmurings,
the secret repinings,
the secret discontents,
the secret insolencies,
the secret filthinesses,
the secret unbelievings,
which God might every day charge upon his soul?
Should the best and holiest man on earth have but his secret sins written on his forehead, it would not only put him to a crimson blush—but it would make him pull his hat over his eyes, or cover his face with a double scarf!
"Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults." Psalm 19:12
Do you have any secret sins?
Katie, what you have done is called eisigesis not exegesis.
November 24, 2010 10:49 PM
Why not go through the Greek including grammar and context and show her how?
Anon 10:49 pm,
Awwww did I hurt your feelings by setting you in your place?
You have simply demonstrated how ignorant you are of what scripture says.
I don't get my theology from Mac Brunson, Perry Noble, Ed Young, or even Rick Warren.
IF there was an admonition for women not to teach scripture, then the Bible would say so. It doesn't. In fact it demonstrates repeatedly that women can teach the scriptures to men and have done so quite successfully. Deal with it, and while you're at it, deal with the fact that many women are quite capable of understanding Greek to include verb tenses.
I accept the place in the body of Christ, where God has placed me. But that does not mean I am inferior to men. We are all created in His image.
There might be a place for you in the Mormon church. I think you'll fit right in. Show your tax return, pay your tithe and keep your women in line.
The women learn in silence with all subjection, refers to the marriage contract rather than teaching, otherwise about 750,000 teachers should be relieved of their duties today. Older women are to teach younger woment Titus 2:3-4. Adam slept in order to have Eve as she came from him while God performed the operation. Jesus died that his bride (church-body of believers) should live. I believe a lot of pastors use this idea that the wife is to shut up and let the men rule the church. Strange isn't it that God made the wife to be mans help meet. You would be surprised how many of these pastors get their sermons and instructions from their WIVES!!! I am a happily married man of many years, with a believing wife who knows her Bible and has witnessed to men, some of whom were SAVED.
"The women learn in silence with all subjection, refers to the marriage contract rather than teaching,"
While I agree with the flavor of your comment there are some problems. 1 Tim 2 is singular grammar as Paul is referring to A woman. This fits with the theme outlined in chapter 1 about those who are deceieved and those who deceive on purpose. Paul does not name names when one is deceived out of ignorance. He even describes himself as someone like that.
The "she" and "they" (gune and aner) point to a wife and husband. She is "authenteo" him. As in "murdering or "forcefully compelling' him with false teaching. (Most likely the Temple of Artemis stuff mingled in because Paul refers to creation order and the temple taught that Eve was created first)
One reason your understanding does not work is that the early church was full of women with no husbands attending. As it is today. (Roman's 16 is a good example along with archeology and early writings).
"Strange isn't it that God made the wife to be mans help meet. You would be surprised how many of these pastors get their sermons and instructions from their WIVES!!! I am a happily married man of many years, with a believing wife who knows her Bible and has witnessed to men, some of whom were SAVED."
"help meet" is a horrible translation of the Hebrew. She is an 'ezer kegnado' which is 'help comparable' to him.
God is described as an Ezer throughout the OT so we know it cannot mean 'jr. assistant to the big guy'. :o)
Lots of very bad teaching for thousand years out there. We are blessed to live in a time we can study for ourselves.
So, women, proclaim His Name to anyone who will listen. Private parts do not matter since IN CHRIST, there is no male or female.
"Help meet is a bad translation", SAYS YOU! Here is another "in the Greek scholar". This is also the problem with translations, translations, translations. My Bible says "help meet", like it or not. If you can pick apart the Bible then lost people will have the excuse that even so called Christians can't agree on what it says, therefore why believe it. This actually happened to my child in college. He was witnessing to a lost classmate, using scripture, when the lost person said; "Why should I believe anything you say when you Christians don't even agree about what all of your Bibles say". Everyone should think about this before quoting just "any ole Bible". Or before putting doubt on it with the "In the Greek", or "the Greek Translation says", or "a better translation is". You preachers are really guilty of this stuff. Especially some "megas" I have heard....FOR YEARS. Always quoting "the Greek" makes me doubt YOU. What are you trying to prove? How smart you are? Always "straining at a gnat".
In the Greek...Mega pastors ever learning and never coming to the truth. For you Bible believers I applaud you. Stick with the English, God's wisdom is not man's wisdom!!!
And another question, what exactly is a storehouse?
"Help meet is a bad translation", SAYS YOU! Here is another "in the Greek scholar". This is also the problem with translations, translations, translations. My Bible says "help meet", like it or not."
No, says the interlinear. And it is NOT the Greek but the Hebrew as Ezer Kegnado.
I am speechless at your willful ignorance. I suppose you think it was written in English? You have the resources to study deeply at your fingertips for free. You have no excuse.
I have an idea for you. Why not only use the Masoretic OT where the Jews made sure in translation it says "young woman" instead of "virgin" in Isaiah. They did that on purpose. Yet many Christians use that translation. And many professing Christians deny the virgin birth, too.
You are just scared and lazy.
For you Bible believers I applaud you. Stick with the English, God's wisdom is not man's wisdom!!!
November 27, 2010 12:55 PM
So this means that all bible translators throughout history were "Inspired". Even Pagnini, the Catholic monk in 1400's who changed teshuqa from "turning" which it had been since the original to "desire" in Gen 3:16.
Or how about the translators under King James who were working for a "divine" king of the church and in fear of losing their positions of they did not have "offices" and an earthly human, boss of the church to obey? If you read their original preface, you might change your mind. You can find it online.
You might try reading some of the current day translator blogs to find out how it works. Try the Better Bibles blog.
And you might come to the conclusion it is only wise to read ANY translation with the indwelling Holy Spirit who causes you to study further for understanding. Then again, that is hard because it requires steadfastness and perserverance. You sound like you don't want to think much.
There are a bunch of people out there right now trying to ruin the new NIV...like Piper. (They only want you reading the ESV) Perhaps you will listen to them or other humans instead of seeking the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Here are some examples of some badly translated idioms from the ESV:
Mark 1:2 (pars. Matt. 11:10; Luke 7:27)
ESV: “Behold, I send my messenger before your face”
Comment: The Greek idiom pro prosōpou sou (lit. “before your face”) means “ahead of you.” I would never say, “I arrived at the restaurant before your face.” Most versions recognize the idiom and translate accurately (HCSB, NET, NIV, NAB, NLT, REB, GNT, GW). While the original NASB used “before your face,” its 1995 update (NASU) recognized the idiom and corrected it to “ahead of you.” The NRSV similarly revised the RSV. Curiously, the ESV misses the idiom here (and parallels), but gets it right in Luke
9:52 and 10:1, where pro prosōpou autou is translated “ahead of him.”
Improving the ESV 5
TNIV: “I will send my messenger ahead of you,”
NASU: “Behold, I send my messenger ahead of you.”
Luke 22:3 ESV Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.
Comment: This is not English. The Greek idiom means “one of the Twelve”
TNIV Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
NET Then Satan entered Judas, the one called Iscariot, who was one of the twelve.
Luke 2:36
ESV Anna…was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,
Comment: The Greek idiom (lit.) “advanced in many days” means “very old.” The idiom “from her virginity” means “after she was married.” This illustrates one of the common mistakes made by literalist translators. They suppose that by reproducing a few words from the idiom (“advanced” and “virginity”), you
get closer to the meaning. But it is the whole idiom that carries the meaning, not random words.
TNIV She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,HCSB She was well along in years, having lived with her husband seven years after her marriage.
There are a bunch more idiom problems in the ESV.
Anon 11-25 1:53 PM, You need to read I Cor 16. Its full of men rather than women. Also, in almost every case where people congregate cited by Paul its a mans house. You must be reading some strange archelogy finds. Stick with the Bible it defines what really takes place in early days of the church. Don't forget Peter residing with Simon who witnessed to Cornelius the Centurion. Also, in Acts we find many men particularly Gentiles received Jesus Christ as their savior in a lot of the chapters. I do not think that anyone can reliably state that there were more women rather than men in the first century making up the church. Obviously you haven't visited some of the men Sunday School classes where men are as numerous as the women classes. Lastly, some men find church boring and are not as social
minded as their wives and prefer staying home for whatever reason. Some men also are out working on Sunday in the workplace or doing some chores around the house.
" Also, in almost every case where people congregate cited by Paul its a mans house. You must be reading some strange archelogy finds."
Really? Like "Chloe's people" and the first church in Europe that started in Lydia's house?
Anon 1:54. Puny excuse you coming up with just 2 houses out of 56 while the other 54 were headed by men. Get over yourself and admit that almost all houses were headed by men. Do some research on the computer and see the real results of his vs her and you can then apologize. I know its tough to lose but thats part of the learning process.
Anon 1:54. Puny excuse you coming up with just 2 houses out of 56 while the other 54 were headed by men. Get over yourself and admit that almost all houses were headed by men. Do some research on the computer and see the real results of his vs her and you can then apologize. I know its tough to lose but thats part of the learning process.
November 28, 2010 2:21 PM
So, male parts are what make men more equal? Sounds Orwellian such as some animals are more equal than others.
I was pointing out that there WERE churches in the homes of women with NO mention of husbands. The household codes of Roman world make that a rarity if you care to study. Joanna, wife of Chuza, was following Jesus around supporting him out of HER resources, the text says.
Where do you get 56? There was not just one house church in each city.
Anon: If you read through Paul's epistles you will find numerous houses that are mentioned "his" rather than the low number of "her". I was mainly drawing your attention to the fact that there were many more his homes than her homes. Of course there were widows that supported Paul just less houses where the brethren met where a man was not involved.
Anon:11:28 8;41: I notice you did not add the KJV to your numerous confusing versions. Nor did you address my comment about the "numerous versions", and the endless "in the Greek" being a STUMBLING BLOCK to the lost world. As a matter of fact you did not acquit your argument at all. If one really is concerned about leading lost people to the truth of Salvation, Jesus Christ, one will not delibertly confuse a lost person with a DEAD language (Greek) while trying to impress with head knowledge rather than impress with HEART knowledge. The same is true in teaching the Gospel in a church. Jesus says you must come by faith as a little child. Making a big show of THE GREEK does not lend itself to this promise. In addition, THE GREEK does not influence nor does it probably matter to 99% of the people listening.
"THE GREEK does not influence nor does it probably matter to 99% of the people listening."
So truth does not matter?
"one will not delibertly confuse a lost person with a DEAD language"
So, are you a lots person? If not, your point is moot.
The NT was written is Greek. There are of course differences in the original language and the receptor language. Knowing those differences gives you an advantage when interpreting scripture.
Being a Christian does not give you license to check your brains at the door.
"while trying to impress with head knowledge rather than impress with HEART knowledge."
False dichotomy. The same Bible that tells us to love God with our heart also tells us to love him with our mind.
There is no Christianity for Dummies.
LOL! These ladies are kicking your tails men. Both theologically and intellectually. You are embarrassing yourselves.
"If you can pick apart the Bible then lost people will have the excuse that even so called Christians can't agree on what it says, therefore why believe it."
And your solution is to put your head in the sand and pretend that differences in translations don't exist. Good luck with that when they look up the information they are looking for on the Internet and your credibility is totally shot.
Honesty is the best policy. The position of Inerrancy is that the originals are without error not any particular translation. There is agreement in the essentials.
"AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lucidity is a blessed place to be!"
Different term. Same bad logic.
Lucidity is not defined as "agreeing with me."
"Sanity - the quality or state of being sane; especially : soundness or health of mind (Websters)"
"I am well aware of the definition of sanity, my friend. Again, thank God for you."
That's good to know. Now perhaps you can start applying it.
Your logical fallacy here is known as "I am the world." Example: I don't like country music so country music isn't popular.
You have to back up your opinion with scripture (and here is the key) that is interpreted correctly in context.
That is where your ideas fall short.
11:17: Truth is in the English. Truth is supposed to be preached...and for Americans...in the English. To say that believers don't get the truth without the Greek is false. My Bible is in English!!!! As you have shown, confusion insues when you get bogged down with "the Greek" (which no one cares about or understands) or with the eternal NEW (for profit) translations. To say you just don't understand the Bible if you don't have this or that translation, or if you don't understand the Greek is ridiculous and FALSE.
You still did not address the point which is the most important...To put so much emphasis on the Greek and this or that translation is a stumbling block to lost people that want a clear path to the Lord and His word. This INTELLECTUAL pursuit of KNOWLEDGE does not matter to the lost man or to the novice reading, maybe, for the first time his Bible. Jesus is NOT the author of confusion. I think you need to get off your intellectual plane and think about the lost man and try to take a humble position to help them.
Paul had it right.1 Cor.14:v19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, that ten thousand words in an unknown tongue". I understand this is in relation to tongues etc., but can apply to "the Greek" which most English speaking people do not understand, and dismiss as it is confusing to them. ENGLISH PLEASE.
Cont. In addition: Suppose you are seriously ill in a country whose language you don't understand. The doctors and nurses speak to you about your condition in their native tongue, which you don't understand. They are looking at you very gravely. They leave the room. You are left to ponder what they are trying to tell you about your condition and what TREATMENT they are about to perform on you. GET IT? Lost people are seriously ill, sick in sin. The ENGLISH BIBLE tells them Eph2:v1&4-5" 1."And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins; v.4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, v.5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved);
Anon: for the record you are talking to evidently two different people re: this discussion. I am using scripture. WD, thanks for your patience in posting this "In the Greek" discussion.
Also for the record my English Bible IS correctly translated and has been the instrument to lead many to the Lord since 1611. Of course I will expect to hear much about that!!!!
"Truth is in the English."
If that is the case then why didn't Christ speak in that language? Was there no truth until it was translated into English in 1611? If that is the case why was the AV 1611 version full of errors and a follow-up with corrections was released soon afterwards. For example the AV 1611 version stated "Thou Shalt Commit Adultery."
By the way, that is not the position of inerrancy or the Baptist position.
"Truth is supposed to be preached...and for Americans...in the English."
What about other countries with different languages. What version should they be reading and ignoring the original language of Christ?
"To say that believers don't get the truth without the Greek is false."
I don't see anyone here making that claim. Although I do see you making that claim for the English version (which is of course a translation).
"My Bible is in English!!!!"
I am the world fallacy.
"As you have shown, confusion insues when you get bogged down with "the Greek"
And that never happens with the English?
"(which no one cares about or understands)"
I am the world fallacy.
"or with the eternal NEW (for profit) translations."
At one time the KJV was new. Should the English speaking people of the 17th century waited to read it? Of course, those Bibles were sold and not given away. There were no copyright laws at the time so that comparison is invalid.
"To say you just don't understand the Bible if you don't have this or that translation, or if you don't understand the Greek is ridiculous and FALSE."
Who is making this claim? Why is it only in Christianity that less knowledge is thought to be advantageous? This paradigm comes straight from the culture. Unfortunately, some in the Christian community have bought into this ungodly principle.
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, that ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".
Wow. Have you ever heard of principle of interpreting in context. Paul is talking about speaking in tongues. Greek is not an unknown language.
Duh.
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, that ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".
This verse is addressing speaking in church not what language to read in your Bible. Paul is correcting the misuse of tongues in the Corinthian church. Greek is not an unknown tongue.
Look at all the mistakes you made with just one verse (by not interpreting it in context) and that was from the English version!
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, that ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".
Of course, Greek was the language of Paul's day (when this verse was written). So, Paul is telling the Corinthian church that it is better to speak five words with my understanding (which was Greek at that time) than ten thousand in tongues. Unwittingly you have defeated your own position.
If one really is concerned about leading lost people to the truth of Salvation, Jesus Christ, one will not delibertly confuse a lost person with a DEAD language (Greek) while trying to impress with head knowledge rather than impress with HEART knowledge. The same is true in teaching the Gospel in a church. Jesus says you must come by faith as a little child. Making a big show of THE GREEK does not lend itself to this promise. In addition, THE GREEK does not influence nor does it probably matter to 99% of the people listening.
November 28, 2010 9:30 PM
You sound like the priests in the Dark Ages. They said people did not need to know how to read. We will tell them what it says. That is why it is called the "Dark Ages". (wink)
However, once someone is saved and wants to go deeper, it is a blessing to be alive in these times with all these free resources at our fingertips. Of course, you think it is silly to want to do that.
"I understand this is in relation to tongues etc., but can apply to "the Greek" which most English speaking people do not understand, and dismiss as it is confusing to them. ENGLISH PLEASE."
My cousin spent 2 years learning both French and an obscure African language in order to be a missionary in West Africa. Her learning Greek in seminary came in REAL handy when trying to spread the Gospel among these people groups in their own language when they had yet to have a translation in their own language. I doubt if you can understand that.
You need to get out more. Many are learning Spanish simply to evangelize the Latino's in our "English" language midst.
Please, enough of the KJV only and Greek discussion. Might be a tad more interesting if we knew how to differentiate between the Anons....
PLEASE DO NOT PRINT PRIVATE DO NOT PUBLISH FOR YOUR EYES ONLY!! THANKS!
WD: You might be suprised who we are. As a bit of private info, you have no idea how we have helped in your efforts, (in a way we wish to remain anonymous). Nevertheless we wish to remain anonymous also, totally!. We have sought to use scripture to correct error, thus the discussions. Granted we have not done this always (used scripture). As I hope you have noticed we have always defended vigoriously, your position and have rejoiced at your success. We will not "trespass" on your patience and kindness in allowing us to blog., our thoughts and opinions any longer. As another bit of private info and as one explanation for our defense of the KJV...we have been long time members of FBCJ, Needless to say, as you were around some years maybe you know that both Lindsays, (Godly gentlemen) were extremely pro KJV and often said so from the pulpit. The real problem in churches today is ERROR whether from the pulpit, people or Bible translations. But, I digress,as you don't wish this discussion to continue. We maintain that if people were as interested in what Gods Word really says, (the spiritual) as they are in church politics, and worldly controversies we would indeed be stronger Christians. We believe the Lord is coming soon, and wish He would find His church more ready for Him. The church has failed and the lost are many. We are in a spiritual battle, not just a first amendment battle. Please do not discuss this communication with anyone as even discussion might reveal who we are. At this time we have other major concerns of life to deal with and do not need further complications such as any church related problem. Thanks. God bless you and your family, as we truly pray for you to succeed in your life and your endeavors.
If scripture shows no difference between male and female, why weren't there any female apostles? I do not blame women for them having to take on a role not designed for them. I blame lazy careless men who refuse to follow their God given responsibility.
Meet Junia. small a apostle in Romans 16. Which only means "sent out" ones.
We even have early church fathers writing about her (yes as a she) and her work. Chances are she was persecuted in Rome.
The Original 12 were mapped to the 12 Tribes. Remember, Judas was chosen, too. No Gentiles were chosen...should we be worried?
Jesus did not overturn civil Patriarchy whether the Jews or the Roman or Greek civil codes. Nor did He demand the overturn polygamy or slavery. So, I must assume those things are ok?
So, what was your point?
"If scripture shows no difference between male and female, why weren't there any female apostles?"
If there are specific roles for genders then how can women be Christlike since Christ came as a male? Who are we to emulate in scriptures for our specific roles?
It isn't about the ten percent....it's about if God has your heart. I joyfully give my ten percent and will continue to give unto the Lord because in all reality He is the one who has readily blessed me with something to give in the first place. You don't just give whatever, whenever you feel like it! Watchdog, you are wolf in sheep's clothing and sowing discord in the church. If God has your heart, He will get your wallet. I don't care if the ten percent is supposedly abolished because we are under grace. Grace is what allows us to even stand. We are so lowly in comparison to such a Holy God, that we have absolutely NO right to say what you will and won't give to God. Ten percent of our income should be just the beginning but GIVE TO GOD WHAT IS RIGHTLY HIS....because after all HE IS THE ONLY REASON WE CAN GIVE. Oh and by the way, I think you're a coward because you're too scared to say your name. If you call yourself a "man of God" ( which your fruit doesn't support that) then you should fess up and tell people your name--because to me, you're just a sorry excuse for a christian.
"You can call me foolish....but it's just another jewel in my crown."
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