"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Wednesday, February 16, 2011

Bob Allen at Associated Baptist Press Writes Article on Mohler's "Save Them From Their Ignorance" Sermon

I think Mohler's comments on pastors' God-appointed role in saving people from ignorance, and his statements that most people "don't know enough" to be faithful Christians and need pastors to continually inform them, are worthy of more analysis and reporting than on a baptist blog.

Glad to see that Bob Allen at the Associated Baptist Press agrees.

Bob Allen over at Associated Baptist Press has run an article today at their website highlighting Al Mohler's FBC Jax Pastor's Conference sermon declaring how pastors are God's appointed agents to save all of us from our ignorance.

"Mohler: Preacher's burden to save flock from ignorance"- Bob Allen, ABP, 2/15/11

Bob Allen over the years that I've read the ABP and the BP since I started blogging, is by far the most objective baptist religion writer there is. Over the last 3 1/2 years since this blog began, Allen has not been afraid to write accurately about this blog, the sheriff's office investigation, the lawsuits, etc. - and he has written on situations at FBC Jax that were first reported on this blog in the earlier days of the blog. Perhaps this blog's article on Mohler's sermon caught Allen's eye and prompted him to write about it, but I can only speculate. And last year Allen wrote some of the most complete articles concerning the Ergun Caner saga and was not afraid to accurately explain the role that bloggers played.

While Allen actually reports what is going on in Baptist circles - fair and objective reporting - all we seem to get from Baptist Press and state convention run papers are articles that might cast a positive light on Baptist leaders.

Take for example our own "Florida Baptist Witness" - they tout themselves as the "newspaper of the Florida State Baptist Convention". But they don't report on most controversial issues, and in my view they are more of a mouthpiece for the religious leaders of the state convention than they are a "newspaper". The business editor and managing editor are John and Joni Hannigan, both members of FBC Jacksonville. If you look at the FBW Board of Directors, lo and behold you see that Brunson's wife, Debbie Brunson, is on the board.

So it is no surprise in the FBW that you won't see any articles about Mohler's sermon and his ridiculous statements about pastors and their appointedness to save us all from our eternal ignorance. In fact you won't read anything even slightly negative about First Baptist Church Jacksonville. Do a search on Mac Brunson or FBC Jax at the FBW site - no articles on the blogger fiasco that was on the front page of our paper or the ensuing legal action. No articles about Caner last year despite him being a close friend of Brunson and a regular speaker at FBC Jax since 2001. The Caner debacle was not a newsworthy event to Florida baptists? Or would have accurately reporting on it cast a negative light on FBC Jax because of the editors' pastor's and their church's close association with Caner?

Joni Hannigan published an FBW article last week - "Brunson's Jacksonville Pastor's Conference Conference Continues to Grow in Diversity" (congratulations to Mac and Trey, it is now "Brunson's conference") - which is a very lengthy article about how much of a smash success this year's pastor's conference was. Hannigan gives a blow by blow account of many of the speakers' sermons. Hannigan even gave the five sermon bullet points of Jimmy Scroggins' sermon from Sunday afternoon - now THAT is news! But she completely left off any mention or analysis of Mohler's sermon which was delivered right after Scroggins' and arguably Mohler was one of the keynote speakers. She did mention that Ergun Caner along with his brother Emir hosted the "student conference" at the pastor's conference.

So Baptists, be wary of the information you get - and that you don't get - from the Baptist Press and from your state convention news outlet that is probably run by the pastors in your state. It may look like "news", but I would characterize it more as a PR department for the views of those in power in your state convention.

Your best bet for news and analysis are the many blogs and reputable Christian news organizations. Use "Google Reader" to subscribe to the news feeds from your favorite blogs and news outlets, and get the content delivered to your browser.

100 comments:

Anonymous said...

Baptists do suffer from ignorance and they do need someone to tell them the truth but it is about about their own denomination. If they really understood the depth of manipulation, arrogence and ineptness they would either change things or quit giving.

Anonymous said...

I do believe it is the minister's responsibility to move people forward in wisdom, to present people to God as mature and complete, to serve as a benefit to the believers, and to unravel mysteries.

I was at the Pastor's Conference and that was the theme of Mohler's sermon. It was not that parishioners are stupid and preachers are brillant. Of course that idea was picked up by the press and by this blog...but Mohler's words and the ideas in the top paragraph are steeped in scripture.

I thought if anything Mohler's sermon was a hit in the gut to pastors for teaching lightly and with shallow precepts.


AJ Hunter

Anonymous said...

I have no problem with Mohler's comments. It is the responsibility of the pastor to shepherd, guide, and instruct the believer through his journey of understanding and application of the words of God.

Anonymous said...

ADP is anti-Calvinist!

I get sick and tired of you all harrassing us Reformers!!

All Mohler was saying was..."Without a Pastor in our life to teach us, lead us, instruct us, train us, we lay folks are too stupid to figure it out with just us and our Bible and the Holy Spirit".......

and the problem with that statement is???????

If you know anything about 5 point Calvinism, you know you can't get that out of your Bible without the help of your Pastor and good ol' John Calvin.

My Pastor taught me....
Jesus did not die for the world.

You cannot tell God NO, He will save you even if you don't want him too!

If God didn't pick you on His team, you will burn like a piece of sausage for eternity.

All these years, I thought God loved everyone and that everyone had a choice to make about salvation.

I WAS WRONG!

ADP....LEAVE THE CALVINIST ALONE!!!

Troll Detector said...

TROLL ALERT!


"ADP....LEAVE THE CALVINIST ALONE!!!"


Another Troll. Will these folks not go away?

Anonymous said...

I heard the old adage "ignorance is bliss". Well it is to a certain extent when watching tv soaps, some far left anchors, and most of what goes on for news. However, when it comes to the Bible its every man/woman for themselves. If you are going to rely on someone to provide you with the entire Bible and not just part of it, you are in big trouble, whether he is your pastor, friend, or relative. After listening to a lot of pastors over many, many years I've found some of them to be past ignorant. Nobody knows it all regardless of who they might think they are. That's why God told us "study to show thyself approved, a worker that needeth not to be ashamed". I read to study and I sure don't intend to be ashamed. I am responsible for myself. When I get to heaven, I can't point a finger at anyone else and say, "well, they didn't teach me". Besides that, exactly how much more do you think today's preachers really know? You work for yourself, you make money for yourself, you eat for yourself...then STUDY the bible for yourself. It's food that you need.

Anonymous said...

A.J.Hunter 12:24 said:"I do believe it is the ministers responsibility to move the people etc., etc., to present the people to God etc., etc".

Since when do preachers present the people to God. There is no middle man between the people and God. Certainley not the preacher. Most preachers this day and age have been ruined by the seminaries they attend. They have been taught they are some special branch, and therefore are annointed to do work for God. As a matter of fact they think they are annointed any where they are. Stand aside you mere man, the preacher must pass through. He must tell you how ignorant you really are. God help us! Man could not possibly have a personal relationship with the Savior without these self appointed elitest. I have seen and been around these types of people in life and believe me they are a "pain" to say the least. The preachers today are not the preachers of yesterday. There are no more Billy Grahams, Billy Sundays, D.L. Moody, Mordicae Ham's. These were preachers! And if you believe in Calvinism, give it up. Please refer to the previous blog., for the many verses out of the BIBLE prooving Calvinism doctrine false!

Anonymous said...

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6

Doesn't sound too flattering of an analogy to me, ALL of us, are like sheep who have gone astray and turned to our own way. Sounds like we need help from someone!

Anonymous said...

I have no problem with Mohler's comments. It is the responsibility of the pastor to shepherd, guide, and instruct the believer through his journey of understanding and application of the words of God.

February 16, 2011 12:47 PM

No need for the Holy Spirit when we have HUMAN pastors!

Anonymous said...

"I do believe it is the minister's responsibility to move people forward in wisdom, to present people to God as mature and complete, to serve as a benefit to the believers, and to unravel mysteries."

Another depraved human saved by the same grace can PRESENT US TO GOD AS MATURE AND COMPLETE?

WOW! YOU GUYS ARE BETTER THAN THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Anonymous said...

You look at the number of negative articles about Mohler...it is all a conspiracy against the Doctrines of Grace!

You "Free Wheelers" can't stand the fact we are right!

ABP prints stories weekly against Calvinists....God will get you for that!

I am sick and tired of reading this hatefulness against Reformed Theology.

You don't like the fact that...

God hates some people.

God pre-determined some people to go to Hell, they had no choice.

God picks people to be on His team like a 3rd grade class picks people to be on their Dodge Ball Team.

The big difference between You and God...

God doesn't think He's You!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon: 3:55: "Iam sick and tired of reading hatefulness against reformed theology"..

Well, then don't read it! And it's hateful because people don't agree with it, is that it. And by the way you don't say anything hateful about others do you?
I am so glad I don't have to count on a man to get me to heaven to be presented to God.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:02pm and Anon 3:18pm - -

I did not use the word preacher, I used the word minister to describe those who move people forward in wisdom, who present people to God as mature, to serve as benefits to the believers in the church.

And I am just describing for you a biblical precept for the job description of a minister.

AJ Hunter

Anonymous said...

Have you ever wondered if YOU are one of the Elect?

Can you Prove it?

Bible says many are deceived, wheat and tares, many will say "Lord Lord"???

My Pastor said that if you reject truth then You reject God!

You reject Mohler and write bitter articles against one of God's choicest servants....do you really think you are one of the Elect??

I may be one of the "Frozen Chosen" but where I am going it will be Air Conditioned!!

My Picture is on God's ScreenSaver...Is Yours?

If you didn't get picked, your name is MUD!!!

Anonymous said...

There are many people who would like for this verse not to exist, but it does.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

And in context that was written to a group of "priesthood believers."
The priesthood of the believer doesn't mean the rest of the New Testament doesn't count. The priesthood of the believer functions within the Word of God.

My guess is, that this is what A.J. is referring to.

No amount of theological gymnastics can "unexplain" the straightforwardness of that verse.
Some merely dismiss it, ignore it, or explain it away, but they cannot rigthly refute it.

It is not a license for leaders to abuse, any more than parenthood is a license to abuse children. It is categorically, there.

Dr Who said...

AJ Hunter you said;

"I thought if anything Mohler's sermon was a hit in the gut to pastors for teaching lightly and with shallow precepts."

Hey, if you want something that will hit these pastors in the gut.....Let people like Tom, Doug, Christa, Dee, and others speak in front of them...

Now that would be worth the price of admission!

John H said...

Dr Who:

Hey, if you want something that will hit these pastors in the gut.....Let people like Tom, Doug, Christa, Dee, and others speak in front of them...

Now that would be worth the price of admission!

Those of us who would go hear them in person are already reading the blogs that contain their words. And most of us haven't the funds to travel, unfortunately, to the great and mighty conferences, so we wouldn't pay the price of admission anyway.

But it's a nice thought.

It's also nice to see some blowback against these great and mighty ones that many obscure pastors have long harbored doubts regarding their position and power but the only people that listen to us are our small churches. The ones that really fund the SBC because of the IMB and would be disgusted at what's going on in most of it if they didn't dismiss the discussion as "only of interest to the preacher."

Which we hear a lot of, but we're trying.

Lynn said...

Hmm. I tried to register so I could comment on the article at Associated Baptist Press. They said I was rejected because my profile was in the Forum Spam File.

I don't understand that. Oh well.

My guess is that deep study of the Bible is not really what many church members want. And someone over there mentioned how it's great music and wonderful stories that grow a church, so.

Plus if you've ever read Ezekiel, for example, you'd know why that book is not studied verse by verse.

I'm still not sure what Mohler was even referring to when he said "ignorance." Did he mean general Bible ignorance? Did he mean not realizing that Calvinism is correct? Did he mean shocking things about the Bible that preachers know but realize their congregations wouldn't want to know?

Anonymous said...

"Hey, if you want something that will hit these pastors in the gut.....Let people like Tom, Doug, Christa, Dee, and others speak in front of them...

Now that would be worth the price of admission"

Most people will pay to go hear what they want to hear.

I've got a dozen ear scratchers if anyone needs some as it seems many here want them.

Anonymous said...

Bob Allen wouldn't know "Truth" if it was planted on his big pumpkin head!

I am sick and tired of these Liberals trying to ruin God's man.

We kicked these hoodlums out of the Southern Baptist Convention in the 90's and they need to go Methodist.

These Bible doubting, Oprah loving, Prozac popping, Gay Marriage believing "Progressives" need to be a Barista at Starbucks and leave the Theology to the Pastors and Teachers God has blessed us with.

Bidge said...

Looks like ANON 6:25 & 6:33 wants to pick a fight.

Must be an Everson or Mohler disciple.

Oh well, that well runs deep.

Anonymous said...

This Blog breeds ignorance.

Bob Allen has written other slanderous things in the past so this ain't his first rodeo!!

If it is anti-Bible, anti-Evangelical, anti-Conservative....look for Bob!!!

So when "Baptist Bob" writes about Mohler's Ignorance, you wonder why Bob isn't writing about our own "WatchDog"?

Dog is ignorant...

Ignorant about his positive role with Liberals

Ignorant of the pain HE is causing.

Ignorant of the unbiblical characters that he supports like Bob Allen.

Oh Well, time to go to sleep....sleep good Dog, don't worry about the division you are causing, you are probably ignorant of that too.

Anonymous said...

Obey them that has the rule over you....the point is I do not give any man rule over me...I do not obey man. Jesus is my only authority. I read His Word for my guidance and understanding. Man is the one that deals in error not God.

Observe the verse regarding obey them that have the rule over you is found in Hebrews chp.13 vs.17. The writer says: vs. 17: "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you". Being unprofitable if they are in error.

Please refer to vs.7 "remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation". The end of the conversation refers to whether or not what they say matches up with what is required by God in order to have the rule over you in the first place. In other words are they legitimate representatives of God or are they not. True servants of God vs.,false teachers. That is what is to be considered.
Also, keep in mind that the majority of Hebrews is written strictly to the Jews not the church. No one had the rule over Peter and Paul except Jesus. Same today. What's changed?

Anonymous said...

AJ Hunter:

You are correct on this one.

Great comment.

Louis

Anonymous said...

Well, I guess since we have the Holy Spirit, there was no need for God to give the teaching gift to anyone in the church.

Taking a truth to an irrational extreme is not a good thing.

Louis

R said...

FYI:

Towers, the news service of SBTS, published a link to the ABP article.

http://news.sbts.edu/2011/02/16/mohler-tells-pastors-to-save-people-from-ignorance-abp-notes/

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

R - thanks for posting this. I saw this today, and was shocked. SBTS is actually proud of Mohler's statements! Go figure! Save us from our ignorance!

SBTS Post

Anonymous said...

"And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the training of the saints in the work of the ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son, growing into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ's fulness." Ephesians 4:11-12.

Louis

Lynn said...

"until we all reach unity in the faith"

Well, it's been 2,000 years. Where's this unity? Will it take 2,000 more?

I'd say it's mainly pastors that keep the divisions going anyway. Have you ever heard a pastor say, "You know, my fellow pastor in that other denomination-I think he's actually correct, and I'm wrong."??

mubashar said...

articles
Thanks for this informative post.

Lynn said...

All these Baptist preachers. I know some are good, decent men with good intentions. But many are like "big fish in a small pond."

This came home to me once when I thought about some bigwig pastor eating at a restaurant on vacation. Maybe he's a lousy tipper. I imagined how the waitress would see him-some jerk who doesn't even show waitresses generosity vs. how those in a denomination might see him-as a Christian superstar Man of God.

It was a very enlightening vision. It sure helps keep these people in the proper perspective in the big picture. Picture your beloved leader, who's assigned by God Himself to keep you from ignorance, as just a regular guy and imagine how little awe he would receive in a different environment.

Anonymous said...

"Looks like ANON 6:25 & 6:33 wants to pick a fight.

Must be an Everson or Mohler disciple.

Oh well, that well runs deep."

Actually, it has nothing to do with Mohler or Everson, as I know little to nothing about them, It does have everything to do with Doug, Christa, Dee and what I know about them.

Better guess next time.

Anonymous said...

Lynn:

Your post is really sad. I don't understand it.

Because there is not "unity in the faith" among all Christians, that verse is not true?

God did not give pastors and teachers for the purpose of unity, knowledge and maturity?

If we look at even the first century church, we see doctrinal error and division, as the NT letters show.

But God gave pastors and teachers for these purposes.

Surely you believe that, and your cynical side got the best of you.

I enjoy so much of what you have to say.

Louis

Anonymous said...

"Obey them that has the rule over you....the point is I do not give any man rule over me...I do not obey man. Jesus is my only authority. I read His Word for my guidance and understanding. Man is the one that deals in error not God."

My 19 year old son used that same argument on his former boss.

Anonymous said...

Let me finish this thought:

"Also, keep in mind that the majority of Hebrews is written strictly to the Jews not the church."

... Therefor most of Hebrews is not relevant to me.

"The end of the conversation refers to whether or not what they say matches up with what is required by God in order to have the rule over you in the first place. In other words are they legitimate representatives of God or are they not. True servants of God vs.,false teachers. That is what is to be considered."

After reading this, it seems Mohler was right on.

Anonymous said...

Have you ever wondered why a lot of the great old hymns are no longer sung. For instance:

All To Jesus I Surrender
The Old Rugged Cross
Victory In Jesus
Just As I Am
Where He Leads I'll Follow
I Walked Today Where Jesus Walked
Down At The Cross
He Hideth My Soul
I Want To See Jesus

See its all about Jesus not some man who is a sinner just like the rest of us that we are to follow and be the example. Forget following a man. It want be long and they will be replaced by another and you will have to depend on that one for answers. How long has Calvin been dead? 400 years. Get over Calvin. At our best we are but filthy rags. Have you ever been around a garage working and noticed your old pair of gloves...they are filthy and God tells us we are also filthy.

If you follow Jesus you will never never be disappointed. Following a man will sometimes bring on a lot of regret which you will never forget.

Lynn said...

Louis,

You asked, "God did not give pastors and teachers for the purpose of unity, knowledge and maturity?"

How, exactly, do pastors and teachers unite Christians? They unite like-minded Christians but not all Christians. At least the pastors and teachers I've heard. I think more liberal churches try to unite Christians.

Re knowledge-they may be experts on things their particular branch of Christianity approves of. I've not heard any that teach what different scholars have figured out about the Bible. I've not heard any mention critics of the faith and how those critics may have some valid points. They usually just call their critics names, or say they're not real Christians, or they're evil, headed for hell, etc., etc. That way of responding to critics does not increase people's knowledge.

How do preachers increase people's maturity? Mature people think for themselves. They don't have to wait for the pastor to tell them what to think. And mature people don't see everything as "us vs. them."

Anonymous said...

another article to consider

http://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/the-role-of-preaching-and-the-preacher-in-the-life-of-the-believer/

Anonymous said...

Anon Feb 16 5:20PM thinks that his/her ONE verse (mistranslated as it is) overturns "not so among you" and all the "one anothers" of the NT. Either there is hierarchy or there is not, regardless of how "nice" said hierarchy is alleged to be. Either "not so among you" is true or the Heb. verse Anon neglected to give the ref. for is badly translated from "defer to those who lead and follow their example" to "obey your rulers, you peons!" And these leaders do NOT have a "license" of ANY kind, but an example to live out, and a gift to build up others with, just like everyone else. The Holy Spirit is in EVERY believer.

"NOT SO AMONG YOU"!

Anonymous said...

Heb. 13:7-- Remember the ones leading you, who spoke the Word of God to you. Consider the results of their behavior and imitate their faith.

Heb. 13:17-- Be persuaded by the ones leading you and defer to them, for they are being vigilant for the sake of your souls and will have to give an account. This way they can do this with joy and not have to hear a lot of complaining, which would be to your disadvantage.

None of the usual words for rule or authority are used in either verse.

Dr Who said...

Anon February 17, 2011 8:21 AM this is for U. You said;

"Actually, it has nothing to do with Mohler or Everson, as I know little to nothing about them, It does have everything to do with Doug, Christa, Dee and what I know about them."

So tell us, Anon how does this have everything to do about about Doug, Christa, Dee, (added Tom) and what U know about them?

What do U know about them that makes u so knowledgeable.

You must be an Everson or Mohler disciple...

crankyoldbaptist said...

The more that I read, the more that I realize, Mohler was actually telling the truth. If ignorance is bliss, then there are a lot of "blisters" posting here.

I have never seen/heard such interprative NONSENSE in all of my ____ years.

Good thing you don't have to be smart to be saved. God's grace covers ignorance too.

Anonymous said...

While most sane people think Mohler's ignorance sermon is not correct. You have to give credit for stepping out. And think god we have a person with a convicted heart to inform the mass.

Anonymous said...

Thank God we have BLOGS and writers who expose the truths.

Anonymous said...

its not ignorance its Egnorance.

Lynn said...

"Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)."

" The word "ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult."

I confess to frustration. I surely wish Al Mohler would come on this blog and explain what church members need to be informed of. He could tell us what knowledge he has that we do not have. What is he aware of that we are not. What is it that preachers know that we do not?

If he did that, we would then know what the heck he was talking about.

Note to all preachers: When you're preaching a sermon, every few sentences, stop and tell people what you mean by what you are saying. Define your words. Give examples. Be clear.

Thy Peace said...

Al Mohler: Pastors are "God-Appointed Agents to Save His People from Ignorance"

Christa Brown, Bob Allen, Wade Burleson, Tom Rich (FBC Jax Watchdog) and William Thornton are "God-Appointed Agents to Save Pastors, Clergy and Elders from (further) sexually abusing their flock".

Lynn said...

Just came across maybe a more fitting phrase. Instead of "God-appointed," we could say "self-anointed."

Anonymous said...

Lynn:

That is a good question. The scripture does not tell us.

Jesus came to give us abundant life, but we all don't seem to live it, all the time.

We have the power and are equipped to overcome sin, but we often do not.

From my experience, I suppose the acts of pastoring and teaching help people understand about the faith, each other, our calling etc. I presume that builds knowledge, unity and maturity, when done correctly.

Obviously, one verse doesn't tell us everything, such that God's ideal is not accomplished.

Some may pastor or teach unfaithfully or without much knowledge, and I suppose that this would create more problems than help.

And I suppose some in the church refuse to be in unity, to receive knowledge or to grow up. The NT is full of examples of these issues in churches, which resulted in Paul's, Peter's and John's writing in many instances.

So, while God's purposes for calling people to pastor and teach is for the benefit of those in the body, the ideal or God's intention in this regard, as we see even as far back in the NT pages, doesn't occur all of the time because of failure by the pastors and teachers or the people in the churches.

I feel forutnate to have been in lots of good churches in my life, and feel that I have seen this occur. Though I will admit I have been witness to times when it did not, as well.

Anonymous said...

"God did not give pastors and teachers for the purpose of unity, knowledge and maturity?"

Once again, we see a human who wants to take over the function of the Holy Spirit. The "unity" is spiritual as is everything in the life of a believer. Humans can only be the messenger.

It is crucial they understand that and stop trying to be the Holy Spirit for people.

Anonymous said...

"How do preachers increase people's maturity? "

Good question, Lynn!

1. They must stop calling themselves God appointed or specially anointed as if they are somehow set apart from the Body.

2. They must remember they are AMONG the priesthood just in a different function.

3. They must teach on the function of the Holy Spirit in a believers life and stop trying to fill that function, themselves.

4. If they did not depend on an income from the people they teach, the above might take place. They cannot afford for people to mature spiritually past them.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:44 am. Go back and read the verses stated in the KJV last night at 11:03 pm. There is where these pastors are picking up the correct word rule. Its there, pure and simple. Your version is different from mine and theirs.

Anonymous said...

What some are missing is that pastors really believe they have a word of knowledge. That explains it for them. We are to take them at their word whether they received it at prayer time or riding down a mountain on a jackass.

Anonymous said...

Anon February 17, 2011 2:13 PM,

Check any Greek interlinear instead of the "divine right of kings" version. What I rendered is accurate to the Greek.

Anonymous said...

I've never heard Mohler speak--hardly know anything about him. I think I can be fairly objective.

I don't think his remarks are that bad. I think the biggest problem is that people tend to think of the word "ignorance" differently than how Mohler used it. I think he was using it in a "lack of knowledge" kind of way. There's no doubt that the average person in the pew lacks Biblical knowledge. I think Mohler is saying that pastors need to do their darned best to get people interested in learning. But in the end, you can't make people learn but you can have a clear conscience that you tried your best. It seems that most people here on the blog are taking the word "ignorance" to be a derogatory term such as "stupid". I just really don't think the guy meant that. He certainly could have worded it better I am sure. I'm with AJ Hunter on this one.

Lynn said...

Thanks for all the responses. I'm assuming a bunch of you are actual preachers, and it's encouraging when you come across as nice guys.

Anon 2:25 makes a good point. Stupid people as well as very intelligent people can be ignorant of all kinds of things. That's why I keep trying to figure out what Mohler means. Ignorance of what exactly? The Bible? Correct doctrine?

I'm starting to wonder, since I think I read that he used Romans as an example, he might have been mainly speaking of Calvinism. That's just a guess on my part though.

Anonymous said...

Ignorance of what exactly? The Bible? Correct doctrine?

Yes.
You got it.

Anonymous said...

The Bible hurts sometimes, doesn't it?

Some of you "soft belly liberals" want "everyone is equal, nobody is going to tell me what to do"...

God put Leadership in His Church...get over it!!!!!

This ain't Romper Room!!!

You DO have God Appointed, God Ordained Leaders OVER YOU....if you don't like it, Go Hindu or Buddhist, but if YOU are Christian...YOU are under AUTHORITY!!!

REBELS LIKE THE ONE'S ON THIS BLOG ARE LIKE THE HOODLUMS IN THE STREETS OF EGYPT!!

YOU DON'T WANT A SPIRTUAL LEADER YET... (NEWS FLASH)....

YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!

Anonymous said...

All the anti Mohler, Mohler wanna be's. You are working over time to make sure you fill your appointed mission to inform us ignorant ones on your interpretation of scripture.

I don't care if you believe differently (you being wrong of course), than me but I do find it ironic you slam Mohler and then act out towards others who disagree with you as you think Mohler is doing.

How does this priesthood thing work? We need to come here to find out your position so we know what is right?

"rolling eyes"

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:44 am. Go back and read the verses stated in the KJV last night at 11:03 pm. There is where these pastors are picking up the correct word rule. Its there, pure and simple. Your version is different from mine and theirs.

February 17, 2011 2:13 PM

Sweetie, The Interlinear is free. Check out "scripture4all" and download the interlinear for free. and do some serious study. You have no clue. If they "rule" then I could never leave Ted Haggard's church without his persmission. Sort of like Calvin's church in Geneva. You are laboring under the divine right of kings version. Off with their heads if they did not use "rule" in that passage.

Lynn said...

Anon 3:23,

An answer! Thanks! Now I'm wondering if you're actually Mohler!

Well, I do agree many church people don't do much Bible reading. If they did, I think they'd have LOTS of questions for the pastor. Maybe there is a case to be made that pastors are needed then. But I think they should preach the whole Bible, not just the warm and fuzzy parts.

As for doctrine, there's so much disagreement. That seems to be what separates people.

Anyway, thanks for the answer. Oh, one more thought. I think it's very educational to study the whole Bible where you really learn, not just in a devotional way. But that can be dangerous. I've read many times that what got people started leaving their faith was when they started at the beginning and read through the Bible for themselves.

Jim said...

If the people in the pews did actually "read" their Bibles, Al and his parade of pontificating preachers would be out of a job. The people would know enough to know when they are being taken on a religious snipe hunt. These guys actually believe God has set them apart to be a specially "anointed" group. Yeah, right! Their ordination councils are little more than conversations about points of doctrine they all share in common. There is rarely, if ever, any look into the circumstances surrounding the preacher's call. If he says he has been "called to preach," who ever challenges that claim. A good series of psychological tests would be a great place to start. Insecure men who need boundaries, rules and structure in their lives tend to be those most often "called" to ministry. Wonder why? Of course they will want to transfer their own needs onto their congregations. That is why they are compelled to force THEIR understanding of the Bible on the laity who are perfectly capable, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, of interpreting God's word for their own lives. Pastors are important, I've been one for a long, long time. Pastors can affirm, and challenge, and guide and sometimes correct; but folks, when they start trying to usurp God, run. There are plenty of good pastors who love the Lord and will love you and affirm you, too. Al and his bunch are not "God's gift to the Church," no matter how much they might want you to believe that. They are just the guys in charge at this point in history. Take comfort, knowing, "this too shall pass."

Anonymous said...

Maybe Dr. Mohler lacked a better way to say what was on his mind that a way which seemed ridiculous. If I'm not mistaken: 100% of SBC congregations are led by senior pastors--and 70% of those churches are plateaued or declining in terms of their numerical growth. It does seem like someone needs to learn something--but that somebody isn't just the layperson in the pew.

Anonymous said...

sheep sheeple lemmings misled ignorant stupid arrogant arrogance sad saddened sadly manipulation quit giving quit tithing....

If you banned about 30 words from the vocabulary in this blog, you would be out of business. Boring! The only thing that keeps me coming back is how much fun it is to get under your skin...

Anonymous said...

Jax Dawg:

I have been asking myself all day if SBTS is really that naive or if it's a PR move to neuter the criticism.

I think to some degree they don't see what is offensive in Mohler's words. This is because of the tendency to see your friends in the best light and one's enemies in the worst. I believe this fact of human nature explains a lot on both side of this matter.

Anonymous said...

If you banned about 30 words from the vocabulary in this blog, you would be out of business. Boring! The only thing that keeps me coming back is how much fun it is to get under your skin...

February 17, 2011 10:29 PM

Of courese you think in terms of censoring words. You are a good little lemming.

Anonymous said...

Mohler's message wasn't just to pastors, it was to teachers of the Word as well.

It's a message to everyone who serves as a minister in the church who is responsible for moving people forward in wisdom, presenting people to God as mature and complete, serving as a benefit to Believers, and unraveling mysteries.

But it's also a message for every youth worker, adult sunday school teacher and bible teacher in the Church. It's a challenge that without knowledge people die spiritually (Hosea 4:6), and it's a challenge to not share opinions, but instead to rightly divide and proclaim the Word.

I'll say it again, it was a great message, it sure did not build up arrogance in pastors at the conference, it was a sharp, harsh reminder that our jobs as ministers is to present people to God as complete and mature in their faith.

AJ Hunter

Anonymous said...

Question:

Why would God give a person the spiritual gift of teaching or exhortation if He was not going to anoint them for that task?

I did not hear anything about authority over anyone but clearly understood the submission to God for the calling upon the life of teachers and preachers.

According to scripture these people will be held more accountable. I wonder why that is if they are not needed or responsible for preaching and teaching His truths to build up the people of God?

The message from the Prophets were harsh, in your face, get right or face judgment messages.

Not all preachers will be liked or understood. Some will be given a style which is enjoyable but truth revealing (as in Vines) while others will be given a style which is bold, loud, high tension, in your face (as in Brunson).

God sends to churches who He chooses, for whatever His purpose is. FBCJax needed some pruning to be ready for the coming days.

Praising God for the history of FBCJax and for its future.

The fearful and uncomfortable will either choose to stay and be stretched or leave and blame others for their unwillingness to jojn God in His work.

From a heaven blessed, God following, kool-aid drinker - drinking from the very cup of God, not man.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

AJ - that is spin on what he was intending to communicate. He clearly was referring to the "pastorate", he was speaking to pastors, saying they are special appointed agents of God to save people from ignorance.

And I don't get your use of the "present to God" notion of pastors. I don't need a pastor, or a Sunday School teacher to present me to God. That is church-speak, it is not in the Bible, and it is not close to reality.

Anonymous said...

"Why would God give a person the spiritual gift of teaching or exhortation if He was not going to anoint them for that task?"

All believers have "anointing". See 1 John. So please explain your use of that word. There are varying gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to ALL believers at some point. All spiritual gifts have equal value within the Body. We are the ones who have 'elevated' certian gifts to special status. Scripture does not.


And that is the problem with your comment. You are stuck in the traditional model that is man centered and has nothing to do with the working of the Holy Spirit. You believe because they have the title they have some special anointing that other believers around them do not or cannot have.

There are many "teachers" and "preachers" but not all are inerrant. We are to be Bereans. We are to be TAUGHT to be Bereans so we can mature spiritally. Unfortuantly, guys like Al want folks to not question them. I know a few who have tried and it hurt their "pastoral" career.

Anonymous said...

"All believers have "anointing". See 1 John. So please explain your use of that word."

So far you make biblical sense.

anoint - used as like 2 Cor. 1:21 - chrio - to cover, smear, rub with oil to consecrate to an office or religious service.

"There are varying gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given to ALL believers at some point. All spiritual gifts have equal value within the Body."

This is where you part ways with scripture. Scripture teaches clearly that those who teach will be held to a higher standard. (James 3:1-2). A simpleton could figure out that this anointed gifting is not equal with all others.

"We are the ones who have 'elevated' certian gifts to special status. Scripture does not."

Wrong again. See previous comment.

"And that is the problem with your comment. You are stuck in the traditional model that is man centered and has nothing to do with the working of the Holy Spirit. You believe because they have the title they have some special anointing that other believers around them do not or cannot have."

This has nothing to do with any man but with the clear teaching of God's word.

"There are many "teachers" and "preachers" but not all are inerrant."

You prove that without a problem. Of course nowhere did I say a teacher / preacher is inerrant. That is your straw man, not mine.

"We are to be Bereans. We are to be TAUGHT to be Bereans so we can mature spiritally. Unfortuantly, guys like Al want folks to not question them."

I'm sure it is easier to say what Al would do when you really don't know. The Al I know is not afraid of your questions but the fear is on your end because you are afraid to ask him.

"I know a few who have tried and it hurt their "pastoral" career."

You would want Al to support someone who is so far of theologically? If not supporting such skewed biblical positions causes you or someone else to have their pastoral career hurt, then so be it.

Of course the men I know do not consider their calling a career, but a calling. John Piper has a great book out called, Brother, we are not professionals.

No career (man's ideal) but God's anointed calling (God's ideal)

WishIhadknown said...

So if you use Heb 13:17 as justification for allowing preachers to have unquestioned authority over their congregations then the whole Protestant Reformation has to give you terrible heartburn! Does not being a member of any church other than a “Holy Roman Catholic Church” put you in direct rebellion to the one “true” church?
Would you not also have a great deal of difficulty celebrating the Fourth of July?

Anonymous said...

Hebrews 13 has nothing to do with the RCC.

One thing that gets left out when you deal with the Hebrews passage is not the word "rule" but the word, submit.

God is clearly giving a statement of direction and uses a word many people don't like today.

Back to the RCC and your silly comparison. No one on this blog is saying to submit to sin, no one. But your problem with Mohler and others is not them promoting sin but your personal dislike of their style.

WishIhadknown said...

Hebrews 13 has nothing to do with the RCC.

Only because you choose to interpret it that way. Did you notice I asked a question? I did not make an accusation. I leave room for discussion where as you demand that we all “swallow and follow.” To you, the worst sin in the world is to ask a simple question of a man who is also a preacher. Which, by the way, is what the RCC. How is the RCC anymore sinful than any Baptist church?
What Mohler said is not so much the issue as it is the way Mohler chooses to make his point. Mohler essentially uses God’s name in vain by asserting that preachers are specially ordained to “save them from their ignorance.” God’s word saves us from ignorance not some man. No man speaks ex cathedra.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:14pm 2/17. I'm not sweetie and probably a lot older than you. I did not say I agree with the term rule I was simply pointing out where it orginates. As a matter of fact the Baptist churches I knew back in the 1940's and 1950's was much different from this current generation of those now in leadership. I believe in the priesthood of the believer and allow the Holy Spirit to be my teacher not some sinner who claims they have a relationship that other believers don't have with God.

There is no mediator between man and God, but Jesus Christ. Dr. Brunson has a great sermon on this which he preached in Dallas. He needs to preach it again and again. Have a nice day.

Anonymous said...

I'll ask the question again. How does one know that they are annointed from God? Would one of you preachers come on and tell us so we can know how this annointing occurs. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

"Hebrews 13 has nothing to do with the RCC.

Only because you choose to interpret it that way."

Do you really interpret Hebrews 13 (or any matter of scripture) through the RCC? Now that's just wrong.

"Did you notice I asked a question? I did not make an accusation."

Yes, one that made no sense unless you are exalting the HRCC and I am not the one who brought them into the discussion.

"I leave room for discussion where as you demand that we all “swallow and follow.”

Your questions did not leave room for discussion because I do not interpret scripture through the RCC.

"To you, the worst sin in the world is to ask a simple question of a man who is also a preacher."

Not so. The worst sin is that of unbelief, for it can not find pardon.

"Which, by the way, is what the RCC."

Huh?

"How is the RCC anymore sinful than any Baptist church?"

Not sure what you are asking in context with the discussion.

"What Mohler said is not so much the issue as it is the way Mohler chooses to make his point. Mohler essentially uses God’s name in vain by asserting that preachers are specially ordained to “save them from their ignorance.”

Called of God to teach, held to a higher responsibility and accountability. Teaching is not one of the lesser gifts (yes the bible says some gifts are lesser).

"God’s word saves us from ignorance not some man."

God's word saves us from sin. No one is saying or has said we are saved from man. That is your argument you picked out of thin air, it seems.

"No man speaks ex cathedra.""

Wrong but there may be some baptists on here that would agree with you as long as it is not supported by Mohler and his friends.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2/16 3:08pm. I appreciate your stating that ministers should teach their members the unraveling of mysteries. Can you share two or three that you have learned from a pastor. I believe that would be most revealing. Thanks.

WishIhadknown said...

So you think some men speak ex cathedra?

Anonymous said...

"I'll ask the question again. How does one know that they are annointed from God?"

Not a preacher but it is not a difficult question. Let me ask, rhetorically,how does anyone know they are saved? It is a matter of faith, studying God's word, speaking to God and listening to Him and hearing His voice calling them out.

1 Timothy 1:9 supports such calling upon a man's life.

It is very possible that many or maybe most of those not called to preach / teach can understand such a calling.

WishIhadknown said...

"'How is the RCC anymore sinful than any Baptist church?"

Not sure what you are asking in context with the discussion.'"

Good way to evade answering the question!

Jon L. Estes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Not all preachers will be liked or understood. Some will be given a style which is enjoyable but truth revealing (as in Vines) while others will be given a style which is bold, loud, high tension, in your face (as in Brunson).

God sends to churches who He chooses, for whatever His purpose is. FBCJax needed some pruning to be ready for the coming days.

Praising God for the history of FBCJax and for its future.

The fearful and uncomfortable will either choose to stay and be stretched or leave and blame others for their unwillingness to jojn God in His worship.

I'll believe pastors are "sent" when I see a big name Southern Baptist head for a small church and salary.
So let me get this straight. You're saying God sent an in your face (abrasive) pastor to us for pruning purposes? As in if being brow beaten and talked down to and endless history lessons aren't what we need to grow spiritually...we finally realize we're wasting our time and move on, FBC is better off and can move forward.
Just FYI, some of us have left and are better for it. You sound as tho you think FBC is the only place one can "join God in His worship" which is pretty sad.
Btw... many of us are not fearful nor uncomfortable and certainly not blaming anyone, just worshipping God elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog,

Did you listen to the sermon in its entireity? Were you there to hear it? It was certainly to all of those teach, minister, preach and proclaim from God's Word. And again, I agree with Mohler that the reason laity can be so shallow is because ministers and teachers of the Word are not bringing the full council of God's Word.

You say "presenting to God" is not Biblical? And it's church-speak? Wow, you just made a GREAT point on how so many are ignorant of NT scripture and uneducated in the Word. How many others on this blog are also so quick so dismiss ideas of "non-biblical" which are clearly taught by the Holy Spirit.

AJ Hunter

WishIhadknown said...

I have another question. How can a church sing "Whosoever Will May Come" but issue trespass orders against a member that they have pledged to love and affirm no matter what?

WishIhadknown said...

If you are a preacher and you think you are special to God I have two tests for you. First ask your wife or better yet when you two disagree tell her “but dear don’t you know I am God’s specially anointed” and let us know how that works out for you.
The second find any body of water, I would recommend a shallow one but you are free to pick whatever one you feel led to use. Step out and take a leisurely stroll. Come back and tell us how far you get. My guess is you will sink as far and fast as any of the rest of us poor ignorant sinners you are anointed to save from out ignorance.

WishIhadknown said...

My problem with Mohler and others like him is he is part of a new fad that has spread throughout the SBC in the last twenty years or so. He practices what my former and now retired pastor calls “a new meanness” that has become very popular in SBC churches. The way this new breed of preacher preaches is meant to divide the fellowship and consolidate power around the man who fills the pulpit. Some churches have even gone so far as to demand signed loyalty statements to the pastor from members.
No longer does the pastor serve the congregation but the congregation exists to serve the pastor. No longer is the pastor a saved sinner like the rest of us but he has become a super saint who somehow has a special calling from God and gives him unquestioned authority over “his” or “my” congregation.
Interesting how many of these men who claim to serve the Lord so selflessly have become very well to do if not out and out wealthy.
The reality is more and more SBC churches are becoming as much a cult as any cult out there. Jesus is worshiped in name only the real worship is of the man at the podium.
Many see this new kind of preaching as taking a strong stand against sin and contending for the faith but the truth is he is not saving anyone from ignorance or even preaching the gospel, he is just plain mean!

Anonymous said...

"I have another question. How can a church sing "Whosoever Will May Come" but issue trespass orders against a member that they have pledged to love and affirm no matter what?"

Do you even know what the passage of scripture this is referring too? It has nothing to do with the organized church.

WishIhadknown said...

Did I say it had anything to do about scripture? Again, stop deflecting and just answer the question!

Anonymous said...

"Did I say it had anything to do about scripture? Again, stop deflecting and just answer the question!"

I did. The song has nothing to do with anyone coming to church services. therefor it has nothing to do with trespass papers.

WishIhadknown said...

So you are going to ignore my question.

WishIhadknown said...

What discipline did the Discipline Committee receive for disobeying the Preacher’s directive of “Leave him alone?”

Anonymous said...

I did not ignore your question. You may bot have liked my response but I did respond.

I know nothing about the discipline committee obeying or disobeying anyone.

Who was he referring to to be left alone?

Anonymous said...

You're taking the hymn all wrong. It's Whosoever Will May Come....and tithe, and worship our pastor, and refrain from questioning anything and smile while being talked down to and...
Better one...I'll Fly Away!

Anonymous said...

"You're taking the hymn all wrong. It's Whosoever Will May Come"

If you can't get a hymn right, how can we trust you with scripture?

Anonymous said...

'He practices what my former and now retired pastor calls “a new meanness” that has become very popular in SBC churches. "

An excellent characterization and very true. This description is supported by reading many pastor oriented blogs or the comments from pastors on many other blogs they do not like.

But this meaness does not always materialize on stage while they are performing. It is one reason many do not realize what they are following. They simply do not really know them. They know the performance at church and think that is the person.

While many are now mean (Yep, this characterizes Mohler because he is a known tyrant at work to his underlings and a differnt person on radio, speaking gigs, etc) they have an expectation of "totalitarian niceness" from their followers.

It is the bubble they live in and becasue they think of themselves as specially anointed and God appointed.

Anonymous said...

Would the anon freaking out abt the hymn...
Please Lighten Up!!! Have you no sense of humor?
Not is asking you to trust me with scripture. I simply made a silly post abt the song, nothing more, nothing less.

WishIhadknown said...

More word games, I love you people. I did not say you did not respond I said you did not answer. More evasion.

WishIhadknown said...

Read some of the other treads in his deposition Brunson told the Discipline Committee to “leave him alone” in reference to the Dog. Thus, the Discipline Committee disobeyed a directive from the Pastor, which should merit discipline.

WishIhadknown said...

Anon 5:02

I thought it has hilarious.