"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Saturday, February 21, 2009

FBC Jax Deacons to Vote 2/23 on Fate of Couple Accused of Being the "Watchdog"

In a special deacons meeting called for Monday February 23rd, the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville (FBC Jax) Deacon body will hear the charges against the man and wife who are accused of being the FBC Jax Watchdog, and a vote will be taken determining their discipline. Even though the couple has joined another church, even though not one single, solitary staff member, deacon, or pastor has spoken to them personally about these allegations in accordance with Matthew 18, even though they have not been given a copy of the bylaws or been told the basis of the allegations against them, John Blount and the Discipline Committee say they are compelled to complete the discipline process. The deacons will vote on Monday 2/23, and then the church will be asked to "ratify" the Deacon's decision at some future church business meeting.

FBC Jax began the discipline process against this couple at approximately 6:00 pm on Wednesday, November 28th, 2008 (the evening before Thanksgiving), when Reverends Kevin King and John Blount, ministers of the church who served for many years under Homer J. Lindsay, Jr, delivered to the couple's home a sealed envelope containing a 3 page letter outlining 16 charges against the couple of being "derogatory, divisive, destructive, and demeaning to the ministry of First Baptist Church", along with an executed trespass warning for both, barring the couple from attending church under threat of arrest. When they delivered the letter, King and Blount were invited to come in the home, but they refused the invitation and just delivered the sealed envelope and departed.

The accused couple are long-time members with three children who grew up at FBC Jacksonville, and both served in multiple areas of ministry in their approximately 20 years of membership at FBC Jax, right up until the day they were banned from the church with the trespass warnings.

For the benefit of deacons and members who are not aware of the events leading up to this special Deacon's meeting, below is a chronology of events that has unfolded leading up to this disciplinary meeting.

Why is this information provided in a public forum?

One might question what purpose is served by airing this entire process on the Internet. The Watchdog has maintained from the very beginning, that the best disinfectant to church abuses are to shine light on them. This Watchdog blog has sought to share the truth about Mac Brunson and his leadership abuses that most people in the church would not have access to. To the greatest extent possible, the Watchdog has provided documentation to support the articles - audio, video, and written documentation - often times using audio and video of Mac Brunson himself both in Jacksonville and away from Jacksonville when he thinks we aren't listening to him. The purpose of this article is to not rehash these abuses, but they are all available here on this website in the article archives at right.

The Watchdog believes that this entire church discipline process is unbiblical, abusive, divisive, coersive and just plain unloving and nasty. Despite John Blount and the Discpline Committee stating their intentions are "reconcilation and restoration", its quite clear when all facts are taken into consideration that this is not so. The Watchdog believes that this process being played out, that is now culminating in a Deacon's meeting and then a church-wide business meeting to discipline two former members, is meant NOT to reconcile and restore the accused (after all they were forcibly removed with threat of arrest, and have joined another church), but it is Mac Brunson's attempt to intimidate church members into silence, from speaking up against him or challenging his leadership in any way. Mac himself has stated that one of the purposes in dealing "harshly" with people in church discipline is to "put the fear of God in YOU". Thus, in keeping with the Watchdog's intent from August 2007, he is shining light on this entire process, giving it a fair and full hearing here on this website so that church members and deacons can be informed before they are asked to vote on this matter. Very likely little of this information will be shared with the deacons Monday night 2/23.

Just as important as it is for the deacons and FBC Jax church members to hear the charges and evidence against the couple Monday night, it is equally important that the deacons and church members understand the process that John Blount and the Discipline Committee executed - under the leadership of Donald McCall Brunson - because the unloving, unbiblical process says just as much about what FBC Jax has become under Mac Brunson as does the existence of the Watchdog blog itself. The members must look at this process and ask themselves: Whether the accused former-members are responsible for the Watchdog site or not...is this process implemented by the Pastor, John Blount, and the Deacons what we expect from our leaders? Is this unloving, unbiblical process going to help our church reach this city? Once people in our city know of this process, what will this say to the lost world about the church members who allow this to be done in their church? Is this the church that we have allowed ourselves to become in three short years since Mac Brunson arrived? Or were we always like this, and Mac Brunson has just served to expose it in us?

So here is the story of the Watchdog blog, and the disciplinary process exacted on the members accused of owning it.

August 2007 - The Blog Begins

The FBC Jax Watchdog blog started August 30, 2007. The blog is essentially a website containing a series of articles about FBC Jacksonville, along with comments posted by readers. Since its inception, the blog consists of approximatley 250 articles, and has had nearly 200,000 visits and half a million "page views", and a readership from all over the country. It has been the topic of conversation in many SBC circles and websites and blogsites, and even several news media web sites. Every single article ever written on the Watchdog blog is available for viewing at the right hand column, sorted by year and month.

The FBC Jax Watchdog articles have been quite critical of Mac Brunson and the lay leadership of the church, pointing out a number of abuses that have occured under the leadership of Mac Brunson. The blog includes documentation of the allegations, including audio clips, video clips, and public documents. Since the blog was opened and readership grew, the leadership in the church have been determined to find the author, and apparently they believe they have found him/her and are seeking to shut it down. It should be noted that another blog focusing on FBC Jax and Mac Brunson existed earlier in 2007 that was closed down around March 2007.

November 28, 2009 - The Allegations

As mentioned above, this is the date that Reverends King and and Blount delivered the written charges and trespass warnings to the accused. Rev. Blount placed a phone call to the accused home telephone about 15 minutes prior to their arrival - the husband picked up the phone, and Blount hung up - apparently to confirm that he was home so they could personally deliver the letter.

The letter outlines the allegations against the couple, items A. through P. in the letter hyperlinked below. It also tells them that they are banned from the property until they agree to meet with the "Discipline Committee" consisting of the Chairman of Deacons, Vice Chairman of Deacons, and 4 other members. Neither member knows these 6 men personally. The letter was signed by David Bristowe, David Kay, Jerry Ward, Bob Harrison, Jerrett McConnell, and A.C. Soud, Jr.

It should be noted that in this letter, it is stated that the process they are using is "...in accordance with....Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 18, verses 15-20, and in compliance with the Bylaws of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville...". This is a lie, since in no way does biblical church discipline begin with trespass warnings delivered to keep people from attending church until they meet with 6 men. Biblical church discipline as described in Matthew 18 starts with one person, then two people, going personally to meet and attempt to correct the offenders. Furthermore, I doubt that the Bylaws of FBC Jax grant this Discipline Committee the authority to ban people from the church premises as a tool of coersion to meet with them.

The Allegations Letter

The Trespass Warnings

December 1, 2009 - The Accused Respond

The accused couple replied to the November 28th letter, stating they would be very willing to meet with the committee, provided three reasonable requests were filled: 1. A copy of the bylaws be provided to the accused so that they may understand the process and their rights in the process; 2. That they be allowed representation with them in the meeting for protection of everyone involved; and 3. That they be informed beforehand the basis of the allegations, that is why they were singled out, among the 24,000 members, of being the owners of the Watchdog website.

The couple also asked that the trespass warnings be immediately lifted, as it is completely unreasonable to barr people from worshipping at their church who pose absolutely no risk to anyone. This request was especially important to them as they desired to attend church Wednesday 12/3 as their daughter was singing a solo in the service with her ensemble.

The Accused Response Letter

December 3, 2009 - The Committee Stands Firm

Rev. Blount quickly responded on behalf of the Discipline Committee to the accused. In short, Rev. Blount said the couple must first meet with the committee that night before they would be allowed back on the property to see their daughter perform. Blount ignored their request to give a copy of the bylaws, said that never at any time will they be allowed representation at any meeting because of the "ecclesiastical nature" of the meeting, and regarding the desire to see their daughter perform that night, Blount said:

"....the trespass warnings remain in full force and effect.....Your non-responsive, unwillingness, or unavailability to meet at this time will prevent you from being granted permission to attend this evening's service".

When it was apparent that the committee was going to ban them from seeing their daughter perform unless the gave into their coersion and meet with the Discipline Committee before their reasonable requests were met, the couple sent Blount an email letting him know they would comply with the trespass warnings and not attend. So the accused couple drove their daughter down to the church, dropped her off, and drove home to watch their daughter perform via the live Internet feed. A releative brought their daughter home from the service that night.

Rev. John Blount 12/3 Letter

Accused 12/3 Response to Blount

December 15, 2009 - A Request to Go to Church

For about 3 weeks after the trespass warnings were delivered, the wife of the accused continued to take her children to church so they could participate in the church functions uninterrupted. In most cases she would drop them off, and stay in her car in the parking lot until the service was over, or sometimes relatives would bring the children home. The couple complied fully with the trespass warnings, but still decided it best for the church to provide a copy of the bylaws, allow them to have some representation at a meeting with the six men, and wished to know why they were singled out as being owners of the website, prior to meeting with the Discipline Committee.

But on Sunday December 14, the wife emailed Rev. Blount out of frustration, desiring to accompany her daughter to the special Travis Cotrell Christmas musical that evening. Her email stated:

Mr. Blount, Could I please accompany my daughter to the service tonight? She has been attending some of the special Christmas services and it breaks my heart to have to wait outside for her. Why are you penalizing me and my daughter when we have done nothing wrong?All I have done for FBC is good by giving of my time and talents in every children and youth ministry for the past 20 years. I would appreciate a prompt response and for you to reconsider my simple request. Thanks,

Quite a shame that a mother has to gain permission from Rev. Blount to attend a worship service with her daughter without the threat of arrest. Understandably, Rev. Blount didn't check his email that afternoon and thus was not able to respond, so the mother again took her daughter downtown, dropped her off, and waited in the parking garage until the concert was over.

Rev. Blount did respond the following day via email, with the same message: entrance will not be granted to the church until the meeting with the Discipline Committee. Out of his "generosity", he did agree to lift the trespass warnings for an hour, so that the church bylaws could be read (not copied) by the accused in the church library.

December 21st - February 1, 2009 - The Family Leaves

The family of the accused began visiting other churches, as their own church had effectively excommunicated them. Several churches were visited, and finally they found a loving church, an honest, humble preacher, and people who love each other. The kids adjusted well to their new friends at this church. On February 1, 2009, the family joined their new church.

February 11, 2009 - The Discipline Process Continues

Apparently the new church wrote FBC Jax and asked for the "letters" of the family the Week of February 1st. Ironically, it was then that the Discipline Committee and John Blount, after nearly two months of silence, cranked up their Discipline process once again.

John Blount left several voice mails, and sent an email to the accused, asking them to contact him.

John Blount's 2/11/09 Email

February 12, 2009 - The Accused Respond to Blount

The accused email John Blount to ask that no more attempts be made to contact them. The accused again stated that because the committee could not provide a copy of the bylaws, allow representation at the meeting, or give them the basis of the allegations, they have complied with the trespass warnings and wished to be left alone.

The Accused 2/12/09 Email

February 13, 2009 - Investigation is Completed

John Blount ignores the request to leave the family alone, and Blount presumably knows the family has joined another church. But his next email says he and the Discipline Committee are "compelled by the Bylaws" of the church to continue the discipline process, and notifies the accused that the results of the "investigation" into the Watchdog website is complete. Apparently the Deacons and the Pastor have decided that one of the functions of the FBC Jacksonville is to be investigating websites on the Internet, to try to find out who owns them so they can be "shut down" as the pastor says. Blount states that because the accused has "refused to meet with the committee" the meeting with the deacons will take place without them - which is a lie, since the couple has stated their willingness and desire to meet with the committee once their reasonable requests were met first.

John Blount's 2/13/09 Email

February 16, 2009 - The Accused Respond Again

In response to Blount's 2/13/09 email, once again, the accused respond saying that they are willing to meet with the committee, but Blount and the Discipline Committee refuse to give the accused the bylaws, tell them the basis of the allegations, and refuse to allow them to bring a representative. The accused state their disappointment in the entire unbiblical process they are being subjected to by the John Blount and the Discipline Committee.

The Accused 2/16/09 Response to Blount

February 17, 2009 - Invitation Extended

Unexpectantly, John Blount sends an email to the accused, offering an invitation to appear at the February 23 Deacons meeting to speak on their behalf to the Deacons before they vote on the disciplinary measures.

Rev. Blount's 2/17/09 Email

February 18, 2009 - The Accused Accept the Offer to Defend Themselves

The accused send an email back to John Blount, accepting the offer to speak on their behalf. The husband states that he will be present with his wife, to hear the allegations against them, and to have a chance to speak to the deacons - despite still not being given a copy of the bylaws, and despite the Discpline Committee still not sharing the basis of the allegations as to why they were singled out as the owner of the blog - the were very happy to have the chance to meet with the deacons and defend their name, and to speak to the allegations in the November 28, 2008 letter.

The husband sent an email back explaining he needed at least 15 minutes of uninterrupted time so that he could speak to the allegations - to answer all A. through P. of the allegations in the November 28th, 2008 letter would be no small task.

Accused 2/18/09 Email Accepting Invitation to Speak

February 18, 2009 - Not So Fast!

After receiving the email from the accused that they very much wish to attend the deacon's meeting, the Discipline Committee sends back a letter through John Blount stating that the wife of the accused cannot accompany him to the meeting. They say she is no longer a member and thus not subject to the disciplinary process. But technically neither is the husband, since on February 1st they joined another church. Apparently they recognized the wife's desire to leave the church, but not the husband's.

Furthermore, the Discipline Committee puts stipulations on the speech of the accused, and does not guarantee that he will not be interrupted. Instead of being able to address the allegations of the November 28th letter, the committee says the accused's remarks must be limited to:

1. Whether he is or is not the owner of the Watchdog web site; and

2. Whether the content of the blog is "wantonly sinful".

The accused is told that if he "abuses" the time allocated, the moderator, Mr. Keith Hill the Chairman of the Deacons, will terminate the response time.

Presumably John Blount and the Discipline Committee will have freedom to present their entire case to the deacons accusing the man and his wife, but they feel they must limit the speech of the accused.

Blount 2/18/09 Email Not Allowing Wife to Attend

February 19-20, 2009 - Thanks, But No Thanks

Once the accused understood that the committee did not desire the deacons to hear the full story from the man accused of owning the Watchdog site - which would necessarily include a description of the unbiblical discipline process, the trespass warnings, the unfair treatment of his wife, and the accusations in the November 28th letter - he knew that it would be pointless to show up only to be silenced as he tried to speak.

The accused sent an email to John Blount stating they would not be present based on their decision to no allow him to speak freely and to keep his wife out of the meeting.

John Blount sent a 2/20 email back saying they have rescinded the invitation to the accused to speak because he had "voluntarily declined" the offer to speak.

The accused responded with a 2/20 email pointing out Blount's false statement that he had voluntarily declined to meet, but in fact did wish to speak but not if they were going to limit his ability to speak to the allegations in the November 28th letter.

Accused 2/19 Email Declining Invitation

Blount's 2/20 Email Rescinding Invitation

Accused 2/20 Email Correcting Blount's

So that is the story.

The end result is likely a unaninmous vote by the deacons, and a unaminimous vote by the church on Wednesday 2/25 to exact church discipline on people who aren't even members, and who were forcibly removed with trespass warnings nearly 3 months ago.

The Watchdog will not be intimidated by these abusive actions, and hopes that the rest of the FBC Jax membership won't either. The Watchdog will continue to do his best to tell the story of FBC Jax under the leadership of Mac Brunson, and his "Team".

125 comments:

Anonymous said...

Man, thanks for that blow by blow.

Now we KNOW you are a COWARD.

You had every opportunity to go and speak to the leadership, but you refused.

You spew hate about the pastor but won't speak to him.

You're called out on it, and you won't speak face to face with the committee.

You hide behind your COWARDLY blog.

You're a disgrace, good riddance.

I hope this blog finally dies the death it deserves now that you have revealed yourself.

Anonymous said...

1. The entire SBC is watching this matter unfold--and reading rather unnecessary comments like those left by Anon 4:44;

2. The deacon body and paid staff should not be surprised at all to find many members of the secular media standing in the parking lot waiting for interviews after this meeting is concluded;

3. It appears that the request for the accused's letter/s might not have been granted to the their new church by FBCJ--at least, not without a notation of sort about the kind of member FBC's leadership believes the accused has been of late;

4. IT IS FAIRLY CLEAR TO THE MAJORITY OF READERS HERE THAT THE WHOLE MATTER IS A FIASCO AND AN EMBARRASMENT TO THE SBC. MAY I SUGGEST THAT ANY REFERENCE TO THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION BE REMOVED FROM FBCJ'S WEBSITE OR OTHER ADVERTISING SO THAT THE REMAINING CONGREGATIONS IN THE SBC ARE NOT MISTAKENLY GIVEN THE SAME POOR REPUTATION AS FBCJ AS WE STAY FOCUSED ON EVANGELISM AND MINISTRY? It would be a great aid to the rest of us.

5. Can the complete staff and all lay leaders of FBCJ be removed from their positions and the congregation simply start over again being the church it used to be?


Best wishes for a correct resolution (not the one which appears in sight at this point).

Anonymous said...

Again, I say:


Are we in Amish country? From all I've read, the Amish "discipline" and then "excommunicate" their members if they don't fall in line with "the'leaders'" wishes. Note I said: "leaders, not God's wishes. Talk about division among God's people, well this principle of excommunicating someone from the church is more divisive than a blog. We really need to be praying through this whole mess!

There are some great Christians at FBC. People who are kind and compassionate. People who really show the love of Christ. I pray this whole mess doesn't discourage the lost from coming to Christ! Let's not let Satan win this battle! Let's all unite as brothers and sisters in Christ! Let's not turn on each other! Remember why we go to church: to worship God and to fellowship with each other in Christian love!

Anonymous said...

Will this lead to torture of the accused? See: Spanish Inquisition


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Anonymous said...

You forgot one entry:

February 2008, Pastor's Conference

SBC Today Interviewer: "Hey there, Brother Mac, we just love you so much, can you tell us what you think about these blogs out there that are trying to tear you down?"

Mac: (in his whisper voice): Aw shucks, I don't read that stuff...its just women in a beauty shop gossippin'...golly gee willickers, who could care about them bloggers, they don't bother me none.

Anonymous said...

Sorry a bit off topic, about the quote at the top of this web page and the preacher telling us to shut down people who steal our joy in Jesus Christ:

No one can "steal my joy in Jesus Christ". My joy cannot be "stolen" by anyone! My joy is not dependent upon circumstances, or people, or church members, or questions, or gossip, or anything else. So why would my preacher tell me to "shut em down?"

If someone were to come to me complaining about the preacher and the church, is that mean they are stealing my joy? Maybe Mac's joy has been stolen from him and he's madder than a wet hen, but no one, no one at all, can ever "steal my joy in Jesus Christ", and so thus I will never ever have to take the tact against anyone of "shutting them down". I am called not to shut people or web sites down. I am not called to investigate people, the websites they look at, or that they author. I am called to love people. To help people. To witness the love of Christ to people. That is my call.

My call is not to shut them down, shut them up or shut them out. This preacher is out of control. He has shut out people from the church, wants to shut them up, and wants to shut them down.

What a sad day it is in our church that it has all come to this.

Ikabod is right.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers, sometimes humor is needed.

Someone just sent the Watchdog a Monty Python skit.

It is funny.

The Spanish Inquisition

Its too funny and VERY appropriate.

Anonymous said...

Shame, Shame, Same on on Bob Harrison.

Anonymous said...

The Spanish Inquisition clip is perfect. How appropriate. And how sad. This church has managed to go back to the O T Law, and to being "ruled" by self-righteous Scribes and Pharisees, all in three years!!! Quite an accomplishment for this preacher. I hope one day these men REPENT of their ungodly actions, and realize they are following a man not God.
Why would anyone want to be a member of this so called church. If this is the way they treat even suspected recalcitrants. Would a sinner be accepted into this perfect church? How comfortable would a LOST person really feel in this church? Where is the Christ like example of love. Their idea of reconciliation is, bow down before us, let us verbally beat you, and when you have been embarassed and beaten down, so that your fellow church members disdain you, maybe we will let you come back into the "fold" sufficiently chastised. Oh, by the way, you cannot speak in your own behalf, because only one side will be permitted to speak.....OURS. If this is Christian reconciliation and showing "love", I'll pass thank you. I don't think anyone should "need" this church badly enough to be part of this.

Anonymous said...

First of all, well said Anon 8:20am!! Secondly, a few more quotes from the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" are fitting:

"...true peace and unity does not mean pretending to get along or acting like we agree when we don't...The result is a 'can't talk' relationship system in which problems get swept under the carpet and leaders are not held accountable for their actions." p 90

"What the trucemaker wants to avoid, again, is any appearance that there is conflict in the system...that the leaders have anything wrong with them that might cause others to be in conflict with them." "...the presence of disorder simply signals a problem in the heart. That is why getting people to smooth things over doesn't help and will only eventually make things worse." p91

then, regarding Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 5:5, it says:

"These verses are "church discipline" verses...In a spiritually abusive system, these verses become weapons in the hands of performance-based people to get people to act differently, or to GET RID OF THEM IF THEY DO NOT (my emphasis)" "This is difficult to enforce in some churches, however, because those who need to be disciplined are in charge." p 92,93

For those of you who are charged with voting on the whole matter of removing two people who have already left your church, remember that God is watching your actions, for which you will give an account, and the rest of the reading membership is also taking note. Especially for the deacons who will be involved in tomorrow's meeting, recall Pilate's words and actions at Jesus' farce of a trial: "I find no fault in him" yet he didn't want to risk his position of power and prestige and thus tried to put the 'dirty work' off on others: you men are in the same type of position - which matters more to you: your position and prestige in your church or doing the Godly thing regarding a fellow brother in Christ? "No man can serve two masters"...now, Who was it who said those words? Remember, God is watching and you will give an account to Him for your actions and motives in this matter. Let God lead you in this matter, not your fellow deacons.

D

Anonymous said...

Dog,

Is this just going to be a vote to discipline the accused, or will they also be asking the deacons to authorize some sort of legal action against the accused to try to get the blog shut down?

Why doesn't the accused just go to the meeting and deny that he is the Watchdog?

Anonymous said...

This family has already been tried and convicted. It's a stacked deck. A Kangaroo court. I would refuse to be a part of this. And why was the wife not allowed to come. At first she was. But, I guess they don't want to look in the face of a woman, a bunch of men are hurting. If I were on this deacon board I wouldn't be comfortable at that meeting.
Does it occur to these people that in taking the actions against this family, these children in this family might be so affected, they may walk away from all churches, never to return. Especially after this treatment. Is it worth that? I hope this backfires against this church. I really hope the church body as a whole reject this action taken by these men. EVEN IF THE CHARGES ARE PROVEN. THIS WAS NOT THE CHRISTIAN WAY TO HANDLE THIS SITUATION! I really pray for this church. This certainly is NOT Dr. Lindsays church anymore. What a shame. Is the preacher going to be at the meeting? Or is he just going to let the men(?) do the dirty work?

Anonymous said...

What is up with Dr. Brunson's comment about Christians being treated like African-Americans used to be treated?

The sad part is that it's Christians doing this to other Christians. The accused "Watchdog" and his wife are being treated like a couple of expendable Negros by their own church leadership.

Anonymous said...

What this whole situation brings to my mind is, this is exactly how the Jehovah's Witnesses treat their members who dare to 'step out of line'. Is that what First Baptist is becoming?

D

Anonymous said...

Hey Dog,

I came across this article on Tim Tebow. The author cites your blog several times.

Article

The gist of the article is: Why does Tebow get a pass from the media for Brunson's behavior when Obama got pummeled because of Jeremiah Wright?

Anonymous said...

There is only one coward in this.

Donald McCall Brunson.

Ask any pastor worth his salt, and he will tell you that if he has a long time member that he thinks has something against him, or speaking ill of him, or has questions about his leadership or actions, he himself will go to the member to lovingly answer questions. Express concern. Model Christian love and conduct and grace to the offended member.

But not Mac.

That is beneath him.

If he truly wanted reconcilation with this man, he should have gone himself. But to do so, might actually require Mac to humble himself. Why, he might even have to give answers to the legitimate questions that the member has.

If he wants to harrass and intimidate, then send the man's Sunday School teacher the day before Thanksgiving vacation and deliver trespass warnings. Scare the hell out 'em, that's what you do! Great job guys!

So Mac is the coward.

And King and Blunt are to be pitied, as they were used. As pointed out, these two men of all men on staff have the longest and deepest ties to Homer Lindsay Jr. So send Homer's boys out to do the deed - give the trespass warnings. Of course Homer would give his approval - even his two lay reverends are in on it so certainly Homer is happy about this procedure.

No way Brunson will be at the deacon's meeting. He doesn't want to get his hands dirty. He's a coward.

I also happen to know that the bylaws require any deacons meetings to be announced from the pulpit during a regular worship service, so if a deacons meeting is to be held Monday morning it must be announced publicly from the pulpit tonight.

Perhaps they're calling the dogs off. But perhaps not.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:44

Are you reading the same blog? What I read was someone wanting to be treated fair and with everything that has happen since the day before Thanksgiving (why that day?. I know I would take someone with me as well. If the deacons vote on this they all need to resign!! Matthew 18 was not followed. I love my Lord and only want to serve him, while holding our leadership accountable.

God have mercy on FBC JAX

Anonymous said...

Deacons and members of FBC Jax - "Let me tell you something...the deacons meeting and subsequent church vote is NOT about the Watchdog whether he be the accused or not. The meeting is about putting the fear of God into YOU. This meeting should stop any and all future questions or dissent as I ramrod my $20 million dollar capital campaign through and get my raises and add more family to the staff, etc, etc." Got it? Well you know it now!

Do I really need to sign my name to this. Pretty clear who wrote it, Amen, drummer?

Anonymous said...

Jim Smyrl - what part of "Theology Driven Ministry" - what "core competancy" of TDM...prescribes this brand of church discipline, with no Matt 18, and trespass warnings as a starting point for "reconciliation"? What scripture is this based on?

Did you cover this in your TDM breakouts during the PC? "How to Issue Trespass Warnings against wayward church members?". Maybe in the "Pastor's Resources" section of the PC website you gave downloadable trespass forms that churches could use?

This process shows what a joke TDM is. Mac is not interested in "Theology Driven" anything. He's interested in ram-rodding his agenda through, and if putting some sort of spiritual label like TDM on it will help, then let's do that! Promotions will raise money? Let's do that too! You mean I can put my wife and son on staff and no one will question it? Then let's do that! Can I stomp and yell on the platform? Great! Let's do it!

Very odd ministry philosophy, if you ask me.

Jim, your TDM is losing credibility with this one, big guy.

Are we TDM or are we MBD?

I think we know now.

You're being used, Jim.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Here is the email John Blount sent out to leadership in response to the "Gail Saunders" email (my emphasis):

RE: Blogger Response from First Baptist Church of Jacksonville

At the request of, and on behalf of, the Chairman of Deacons (Mr. Keith Hill) and the President of the Trustees (Judge A.C. Soud) of First Baptist Church, I am writing you to respond to an e-mail that was sent to you on Friday afternoon from a person named Gail Saunders, regarding her “concerns” about the integrity of our Pastor and church leadership.

First, there is no member on the church roll named Gail Saunders. Though the e-mail is written as though it is from a member, this person is not a member of FBC JAX, nor does the name appear on any list of invitees to the Next Generation meeting. Therefore, this person is either lying, or using a false name. In either case, this should inform you as to the salacious character and lack of integrity of the person behind the letter.

Second, though the letter is written softly and as though the writer is genuinely interested in church unity, its intent is clearly malicious and destructive. The intended purpose of the letter is the promotion and advertisement of the blog site referenced in the letter’s post script. This blog exists for nothing less than the destruction of our Pastor and this church fellowship. It is unmitigated wickedness.-

Third, this letter is the latest in a series of attacks against the integrity of our Pastor and staff, our church, its leaders and its ministries, from a very small, yet determined group. The Deacons and the Trustees are seeking to resolve this matter with the disgruntled party in accordance with the process prescribed in the Bylaws of the church, but the party is unwilling to meet with them. The process of resolution continues to be pursued by the Deacons, biblically, and as is required by the church’s governing documents.

Both Keith Hill and A.C. Soud want you know that this matter is of deep concern to them personally, and in the offices of leadership they hold in our fellowship. They ask that you pray specifically for the following:

Dr. Brunson and the Brunson family: that God would strengthen their spirit as they endure this affliction, and that God would defend them against these heinous lies and innuendos. The church: that we would honor the man God has called to be our pastor by supporting him and, as faithfully as ever, carry on the work of the Church, sharing the gospel and making disciples.

The disgruntled: that those behind these attacks would be convicted of their sin, repent, and agree to reconciliation with the church.

Thank you,
John Blount
Executive Pastor of Business Administration


Blount declares he knows the motives of the person sending it.

Blount declares that the intent of the blog is for the "destruction" the pastor and the church.

Blount declares that the accused is not willing to meet with the committee (false).

Blount declares that this process is bilbical (false).

Blount declares the blog "unmitigated wickedness"

Gee, where were these guys when Gilyard was caught....why weren't they sending letters of his "unmitigated wickedness"...no, the blog is UNMITIGATED WICKEDNESS!! HELP!!!!! SAVE US FROM THIS EVIL WICKED BLOG!! OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Are you getting the picture here?

This is very cultic.

A member who apparently is using a ficticous name (who can blame her, given the responses! Who knows, if she had used her real name, Blount and King would have been at her door with trespass warnings) emails leadership asking people to pray, and offering a website for them to go to. This causes Blount to then go into attack mode on HER and her character and motives. She's EVIIIIIIL.

And once again, in true Brunson form, he is cast as the VICTIM. Poor Mac...pray that he will stand up under these attacks. Pray for him during this time of "affliction". How could he be afflicted? I thought the blogs were just beauty shop gossip and he doesn't read them?

This is all too much, really.

Anonymous said...

If the deacons make this farce about the suspected watchdog, they are going to lie to themselves. This is about ego, money and power. The ego wants all the power and if it's not given without question it will be "taken". But, not without the help of other misguided men with misplaced loyalties. And, what's the reward for the power????? Right money and more power. But, what will happen after the "punishment" of this trespass couple, if the money and the membership keeps falling? What will the failure be blamed on then. And who will get blamed then.

We are so close to the end of the church age. People are going to hell by the thousands, and this church's emphasis is on this power play. Think about it. What has consumed this church and taken over it's "mission" for three years. Ego, money and power. How are people going to give an excuse to the Lord for this. People just don't like to be told they are wrong. So they go along with a bad decision because they have too much pride to do anything else. And they enlist more people to back them up and you have what is now running this church. Ego, money and power +++++ PRIDE.

Anonymous said...

How do we know this Saunders person wasn't invented by someone wanting to blame the bloggers. Why? To create a false situation that would garner more pity and support for the trespass action to be taken by the deacons. I am suspicious.

Thy Peace said...

Fbc Jax leadership is in for a surprise.

By getting rid of WD or the accused couple, solves nothing. It only appears to silence a voice.

It does nothing to address the root causes of the issues being presented in this blog.

And these problems will not go away.

From my reading of the blog, ALL that WD has asked of Pastor Mac is only a few basic things.

1. Show humility in the pulpit.

2. Do not beat the sheep from the pulpit.

3. Treat your brothers and sisters in Christ with respect and grace, from the pulpit.

4. Embrace dissenters with true Christian LOVE.

5. Openly discuss the issues being raised here. You do not have to budge on any of the issues, as long as you do 1 through 4, that is GOOD.

Clearly, the above are not very hard for a brother in Christ to do.

As a shepherd you have to heal the wounds within the Church, before you go into the world to do missions and other good works.

I humbly submit that throwing out dissenters, by squelching their voices, does not heal wounds, does not bring glory to God, does not bring healing to the wounded.

I sincerely pray for Our Lord Jesus Christ to convict the hearts of Fbc Jax to Love One Another, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Descriptions of Brunson from the Tebow article:

"neofascist"

"He is, to the South-Park inclined, Eric Cartman as a minister, 40 years later."

"The preacher who makes less sense than Jeremiah Wright, in the church that borders on cult-like behavior."

Thy Peace said...

Hardball Religion Feeling the Fury of Fundamentalism by Wade Burleson

Book Excerpt: Hardball Religion Feeling the Fury of Fundamentalism by Wade Burleson: From the Foreword
First, I now write for the sake of others, not myself. I have conversed with Southern Baptists over the past three years who have lost their denominational jobs for opposing the ideological philosophies and idiosyncrasies of the Fundamentalists. I have witnessed people in our convention literally cry in fear of losing their jobs because they have questioned authority. I have personally observed a pastor, whose wife was dying of cancer, become the recipient of a false rumor that he was having an affair, simply because this pastor opposed a certain viewpoint held by those who controlled the board on which he served. I have heard the pain expressed by another Southern Baptist leader over an intentional rumor that he had experienced a mental breakdown—a rumor spread in a concerted attempt to minimize his influence.

I have seen a female employee of one of our Southern Baptist agencies lose the job of her dreams, sell her blood to meet expenses, and face the humiliation of being called a tool of Satan, all because, according to a handful of Fundamentalists in control of the agency were she worked, she was a “woman in a position reserved for men.” I have met missionaries who lost their jobs overseas because they refused to bow to the political pressure of their superiors and submit to demands for conformity, and then sacrificed their children’s college education funds in an attempt to fulfill their divine call and stay on the mission field. I have met a number of Southern Baptists who have been abused, lied about, discriminated against, mistreated, and even terminated from jobs for being, quite simply, Baptists with a conscience. They are now fighting to right the ship of their lives. I wish to help them all, but if I help just one, I will have accomplished more by writing this book than by sitting idly by, as I have done in years past, and saying nothing. There is no valid reason to remain silent when fellow Southern Baptists are being destroyed by a political machine hiding behind a mask of spirituality.

In other words, some are trying to turn the SBC into one big church, with a pope as her head and all members conforming to the bulls issued by our anointed leader.

Baptists have traditionally enjoyed the freedom that comes from defending liberty of conscience, soul competency, the priestly authority of every believer, and local church autonomy. I now write, joining the chorus of others who have written before me, to seek to restore those cherished Baptist ideals to the Southern Baptist Convention. Some Southern Baptist leaders who resist my call for greater cooperation will call me a “liberal,” but by the time you finish reading this book you will know that I am as conservative as Spurgeon, Gill, Boyce, Dagg and other Baptist forefathers when it comes to the essential doctrines of the faith. Those at war against cooperation commonly call those who view nonessentials differently than they “liberals.” It is a tactic that may have worked in the 1980s, but it won’t anymore.

The goal of this book is to help Southern Baptist Christians understand and cherish church autonomy, soul competency, and church liberty and thus resist the demands for doctrinal conformity on the nonessentials of the faith. Further, it is a call for Southern Baptists to see the importance of having multiple voices speak out, representing different positions on various issues, when some Southern Baptists are vigorously pushing to silence all dissent within our convention. The chorus of forced uniformity and unity that is being sung by some SBC leaders must be interrupted by the individual voices of reason that cannot be silenced.

The narrative of the events at the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention will read like fiction to most. Some of the stories are so bizarre that some will say, “There’s no way those things happened.” To be confronted in a threatening manner with a knife by a fellow sitting trustee, to overhear trustees collaborating on how to get rid of an IMB vice president because she is simply female, and to endure the illogical rants of a tobacco-tasting trustee as he turns purple with rage over my attempt to reconcile a relationship with him might prove more than the reader can comprehend. But be assured that everything I write is the truth from my perspective. I would never intentionally say something that I know or think to be untrue. Is it possible that my perspective may be skewed? Of course it is. That is one of the reasons I am grateful for my blog. It allows me to read what I wrote months ago, with added time removing the emotion of the moment, and to write with even more reflective objectivity. Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20.

Twenty-five years ago I joined the effort to stem what I had been told was a growing tide of liberalism within our convention. That tide, which may have been only a small current, has been stemmed. It’s now time to correct the current that is moving our convention too far to the right into Fundamentalism. It is time to restore us to our heritage of individual and church freedom and focus on the sharing of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Just to show you what Blount and the Boys are up to: the Deacon's meeting was not announced from the pulpit, but it was placed in the bulletin today in the smallest, most remote location in the bulletin. And the bulletin is not placed on the Internet as it usually is.

Watchdog and members, in case you don't know, the bylaws require deacons meetings to be either announced from the pulpit, or they must be posted in the bulletin. They OBVIOUSLY want to minimize the attendance at this meeting Monday night.

Only one problem.

The bylaws require a quorum of 40% of active deacons be present to vote on church business.

John Blount, and Discipline comm. the deacons are on to what you are doing. You better be able to prove that you had a quorum of deacons present to hear your charges against the Watchdog.

People of FBC Jax, how much longer will you put up with this nonsense? Did you see the pathetic attendance in the HS choir tonight? Where was the preacher? What is happening to our church? Are we being divided according to who is loyal to Pastor Brunson?

At what point to we pull the plug on Brunson, Deb, Trey and Maurilio? We can save a boatload of cash and go with just one preacher instead of the Fearsom Foursome pastor by committee.

Anonymous said...

It's clear, by the response from the anonymous email from "Gail Saunders", that the majority of the church are not on board with the Watchdog.

It is only a small number of people who seek to cause division among the fellowship at the church over small matters concerning the pastor and key issues.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1223,

The 'small' things cause big problems sometimes.

A 'small' match can cause a forest fire.

A 'small' rudder guides a big ship.

Keep ignoring the 'small' issues of pride, arrogance and hypocrisy of pastor Mac and some of the FBC leadership and yes, big consequences can occur.

The 'truth' will come out...

Anonymous said...

Anon: 12:33

$300,000 gift is no "small matter."

Anonymous said...

Deacons...

Did they change the requirements for calling a meeting without informing you? Some significant changes were made in the bylaws without explanation, maybe they have done it to you too.

Anonymous said...

Dog,

Once the family has been ousted by the church for being the watchdog you ought to go public, through the press, and let the world know through being who you are, that FBCJ erred greatly and chose to destroy a family for no good reason.

I know this will bring you out of hiding but it will also:

1 - show the world that the ousted family is not you
2 - show the ousted family you care about them
3 - show the rest of FBCJ family the length the leadership will go to hurt them if they stand in opposition

Just a thought. I think the leadership is banking on you remaining hid.

Ghost said...

Make no mistake members of FBC Jax, this move is not about silencing the Watchdog, it is about silencing all of you. Whether or not this family is part of this blog or not is irrelevant. It will not stop with removing them. Prepare for the church to begin targeting individual members who dare to disagree with Brunson. These tactics remind me of what the Democrats are trying to do with the Fairness Doctrine. Of course they will attack the big dogs-Rush, Hannity-first. But it is only a matter of time before they go after individuals. The same thing is happening here folks and I hope the members of the church are prepared for it.

By the way, I would still love to know what ILLEGAL tactics the church used to obtain information about this couple. Whatever method they used will be the same method they use to target each individual poster on this blog. It is only a matter of time before Thy Peace, myself and other registered posters on this blog get trespass warrants delivered to their door by cowards Blount and King. I'll be interested to hear if there is even ONE deacon brave enough to stand up to Blount tonight, but unfortunately I think we already know the answer to that.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:30 that would be important to the ACCUSED, but there may be some other way to show that they are not the Dog. You sharp guys will come up with a way.

For me and others the Dogs identity should remain undisclosed. There remains many important GOINGS-ON at FBCJ that need to be addressed. We have heard that FBCJ is like a Purpose Driven, Seeker Sensitive, Pragmatic, Community type church.

This to me is the root cause of all of Mac's problems. In other words he is what he is because of this new wave of preaching/teaching/pastor.

This is not new to SBC, these types of churches are permeating all of Christianity, all denominations.

The question is, IS THIS NEW WAVE OF GOD?

Watchdog may, when appropriate enlarge his calling to look at other bigger problems than THE MAC.

So, Anon 10:30 you may be right but I hope the DOG becomes a MAC TRUCK.

Respectfully

Anonymous said...

A local church body can not discipline members of another local church body. The Lord has led this family to another church where they can learn and grow and serve. Since they Have they joined their new church home, that should have been the end of it. If the leaders of FBC Jax continue with this they will be setting a dangerous precedent. This means other churches technically could discipline other churches members for things they consider to be unbiblical.

Anonymous said...

It sounds like the church is claiming that the accused is still a member. Perhaps FBCJax refused to grant the letter to the new church, and therefore claim that the accused is still a member of FBCJax.

If this is the case, the accused should email Blount today and officially resign from membership. This would then force the church's hand to either:
- proceed with discipline of a non-member, which would be ridiculous OR
- claim that members have no right to resign from membership in the church, which would also be ridiculous OR
- cancel the meeting tonight and take no further action against the accused.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ghost - where have you been? I remember your "Ghost Post" from last summer on the land deal that was spot on.

You are so right, this is just the beginning.

They want to shut the blog down as a means to intimindate and squelch dissent. It also allows leadership to blame their empty church facilities on Sunday nights on someone else besides their FAILED LEADERSHIP.

There are plenty of churches, mostly of reformed theology, that do "church discipline", but they do it BIBLICALLY. They teach their members the process (not pass it into bylaws and trick the members into voting for it), the require new members to attend a new members class and sign a membership agreement...so everyone subject to discipline at the church knows going in what the process is.

But Mac wants the best of both worlds: he wants to use his discipline as a stick to keep the sheep in line, but he doesn't want to go all the way and implement church discipline in a biblical, open, honest, and forthright manner where members attend a class, are informed of the process they are subjected to you...because he knows that doesn't "sell" well, and its hard to build a mega church and satellite churches when people know there is a mother church who will discipline the sheep. So he does church discipline half-way (to put it nicely). Don't make it a big deal, do it clandestinely, but when he needs it, he has the card he can play against a recalcitrant. Clever. But he never banked on some bulldog blogger exposing his plan. Oops.

Mac is such a bull in a china shop, it will be interesting to hear what he will preach in the weeks following the disciplinary action being completed. We're ready for some well-scripted, theatrical special effects: [STOMPS] and [PEERS] and [STARES] and [FINGER POINTS] and [YELLING] and [PULL GLASSES OFF] AND [SQUINT AND RUB FOREHEAD] and [STARE AT YOUR HAND COUNTING POINTS] and [STEP BACK AND STARE WHERE YOU JUST STOOD]. He will speak in vague terms about church discipline, sin in the camp, how church discipline is an act of compassion, just as Jimmy Smyrl did last night preaching on "Sin in the Camp". Should be interesting to see where Mac goes next.

Also, its likely the Fab-6 Discipline Committee and Blound & Co. actions won't stop at the Deacon's meeting and the church vote.

In fact, I predict this is the beginning of a new phase.

The Fab-6 and Blount and Co. are likely following through with their threat of church discipline in order to get "closure" to the ecclasiastical portion of their investigation and action.

After they complete the eccliastical steps, get ready for threats of lawsuits to shut down this blog for slander. The papers are probably drawn up and ready to be issued.

But the Watchdog is ready. He knows that their process is not biblical, let alone in accordance with their own bylaws! In fact, it will be tough for them to defend the existence of the discipline committee and any actions by them (let alone their issuance of trespass warnings to members they wish to "compel" them to meet with them) since the November 2007 bylaws were not voted on by a quorum of members and thus their entire process is a farce.

Let's hope that Blount takes a roll call at his meeting so that he can document later that he had a quorum of deacons present. He must have 40% of the deacons there at the meeting to vote on any church business. Better be able to prove that as part of his eccliastical portion of their "investigation".

Rest assured readers, the accused will be sending the Watchdog the first letters he receives when the church and its heavy hitters send legal notices that the blog must be shut down to avoid a slander lawsuit.

Bring it on FBC Jax...we're ready for you!

Anonymous said...

At some point, the church must inform the accused of the basis of the charges against him. Advising him of the action taken against him by a letter after the church vote is hollow unless it explains who accused him and how the church "investigation" confirmed that accusation. Otherwise, their vote and decision is based on "you have been accused, we verified that you are guilty, and without giving you a chance to respond to the evidence against you, we now are taking disciplinary action against you."

I don't care how "rock solid" they "think" the evidence is, there might be a very simple explanation as to why they have accused the wrong guy. They will never know if they don't tell him what the accusations were based on. And unless we all know, we can't have any respect for their decision making. Is their evidence "rock solid" because Mac Brunson or Maurilio told them it is true? Well, that is not reliable evidence to any one with a brain. There better be much more objective proof than some guy capturing an ISP number and matching it up. Someone better have documentation from the ISP (Comcast? Bellsouth?)that the blog is in fact owned and operated by the accused. Anything less is kangaroo court!

Anonymous said...

What if the accused request for membership removal was denied and now they will remove them with this vote. It would be liken to I Quit here is my -- weeks notice. NO you are fired replies the boss. It is a matter of perspective. The boss looks better to tell folks he was fired rather than he quit. It will serve to deflect who was the problem.
Just a Thought
SB

Ghost said...

Watchdog, I have been reading, but have just been staying a little quiet. However I am just getting so outraged watching this all unfold I felt the need to say something. I hope the church does try to come up with some sort of legal means to shut this blog down, as all that will do is continue to shine more light on the abusive actions of Mac Brunson. If they go that route, it will be only a matter of time before media coverage begins too. Of course that media coverage won't come from First Coast News, who has an employee also doing work for FBC Jax, but it will come nonetheless.

The problem for Mac is if he tries to shut down this blog, then he might have to divulge what illegal means the church has used to obtain information from posters here. I'm sure Mac is busy consulting with the Soud's on excactly how they can do this legally.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

OK Class...here is your homework assignment as the John Blount and the Fab-6 and the Deacons gather to discuss the "investigation" our church has been doing on this blog so they can go after the man they think is responsible for it:

Listen to another preacher, J.D. Greear, tell his congregation yesterday, what Mac told him privately about our church auditorium at the pastor's conference...

Click here.

Then scroll down and click "Listen".

Then listen starting at the 7:00 minute mark.

Apparently Mac thinks the 9800 seat auditorium is a bit of a burden, and recommends to this pastor to never, ever build a building "like this"....because once its built, the church them becomes about filling up the building and not reaching people for Christ.

How else would Mac think that, unless that is personal experience NOW?

Quite remarkable isn't it? Mac came here knowing we had a huge building...and of course the building was nearly full when he came, and he didn't seem to mind.

You can tell from this preacher's remarks that he views our church as being in the past, that our building is a "monument to the past". He is gracious and kind, but in his words you can tell he was pulling his punches.

Does Mac EVER say anything nice about us or anything about our church? This pastor was telling his congregation, although he was very kind and careful in his remarks....that thank goodness we aren't making the mistakes that they did down there that poor ole Mac has to deal with.

Why does Mac have to play the victim? Poor me, I'm stuck down here in this huge building and a church that is more interested in filling it up than they are about reaching people.

Well, Mac, it looks like your leadership has been more interested in "investigating" a blog site than they are coming up with strategies to reach people for Christ.

And you have gotten your way at every step...you wanted the satellite...you got it. You wanted the school, here's the $500k Mac go do it. So why the disparaging remark about our church auditorium and what it says about our church?

When will we bring Mac before the discipline committee for his loose lips? Oh, we can't because the bylaws say the first step of the discipline process is:

"When any member is accused of any offense against the requirements and discipline of the bible or church, the church discipline committee...shall meet with the pastor to determine if the accusation, if true, gives rise to scriptural discipline."

The process starts with Mac, so he's safe.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog, let me get something straight. If you had just cancelled your membership at FBC Jax and you had shut down this blog, nothing would be happening in this deacons meeting and none of this would be going before the church or whatever, right? But you (or the "accused" which everyone by now MUST know is YOU...and Im sure you won't deny it), but YOU, even though you have joined another church, won't cancel your membership at FBC Jax and won't stop this blog. So, thats why they are going forward, and thats why all this is going to happen. Its been in your hands from the start how far this would go. I don't understand why you continue to care to blog about a church you no longer attend, and have been legally kicked out of. YOU ARE GONE. Go on with your life. You aren't going to change ANYTHING. Nobody will look at you like a "martyr", they will look at you like an idiot. Sorry. Look, I can't say I really understand why they are going after you to rescind your membership when i am sure there are people doing far worse things sitting in that congregation....and really, i just truthfully didn't think this blog had that much influence. There are a VERY small group of posters here. VERY small in relation to the membership of the congregation of that church. Very few people even knew this blog existed until it got blabbed about in the newspaper. And you just simply don't have that much support or influence which is why I don't see why you don't shut this blog down. You have never, from day one, had any kind of REAL info that would have damaged this pastor. They may "feel" damaged, and you do rag on them over and over for the same stuff, and it has probably become very tiring and insulting. But as far as REALLY REALLY slandering anyone, with actual LIES, I don't know about that. I just don't feel the actual stuff or facts you do say is anywhere near as serious and damaging as you have tried to make it out to be or as the church has tried to make it out to be. I AM concerned to see the level to which this is being taken by the church. Absolutely. Can't say I understand it. It does look a little odd to me. But Watchdog, again, I still think you can stop this whole thing TODAY....(and this is probably the last day you have TO stop it before YOUR family is going to get dragged thru the mud) by rescinding your OWN membership and stopping this blog. You started this whole thing, and you can stop it but you better hurry up.
Baptists are a strange group.

And I don't think this church is ALLOWED to sue ANYBODY, so Im not sure what this public humiliation is supposed to accomplish.
Im really thinking thats the ONLY way they are going to stop this blog now that you've gotten your second wind so to speak.
Think of your FAMILY watchdog. And don't anybody tell me I don't have watchdogs interests at heart, or at least his familys....or that im a koolaid drinker. He's making a mistake, why don't some of you people who are his friends on here tell him the truth? Why don't some of you people who are supposed to be caring Christians at the FBC try to in a Christian way talk to this guy. Why don't ya'll act like christians or something????????????

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - I understand what you are saying. Thanks for posting.

But what else can the accused do to let FBC Jax know that they wish to "cancel" their membership other than what they have done: 1. complying with a standing trespass warning for 3 months never coming back to their church of 20 years; and 2. joining another church. Not much more that could be done to say "Hey, cancel my membership". It is John Blount and the discipline committee's decision to push the issue and complete the discipline process. Why, John B is "compelled" by the bylaws to have the Deacons meeting.


[Ring, Ring]

"hello?"

"Hi John, this is the FBC bylaws calling you."

"Oh, hi, how are you?"

"I'm fine, but please, would you continue the discipline process against the accused? My words REQUIRE you to take action against them."

"But you're just a document. I'm the Church Administrator who follows Christ...I don't answer to you, but to Christ"

"No sir, I'm the BYLAWS, and you MUST enforce my words. You CANNOT stop my discipline process just whenever...you must see it to the end."

"OK, I will."

"Are you sure, or do I need to call Honey to get you on the ball?"


What you have NOW is their doing. Call John Blount. I'm sure he's in the office today readying his presentation for the meeting tonight.

However, shutting the blog will not accomplish anything at this point, other than to satisfy Mac...and of course to allow his staff and lay leaders to get back to business and stop investigating web sites. But maybe they also need to be investigating people's Facebooks to see who might be saying something about Mac that needs to be "shut down".

Mac has put his foot down literally and figuratively [STOMP]....and refuses to ever openly and honestly address concerns on this blog like why he lied about Sheri Klouda from his pulpit, why he accepted a land gift worth a quarter mill, and on and on. He has given half answers and misleading answers to some of these (like telling Brumley his "salary" is not anywhere near $300,000 and "I'm paying for that house"). And he continues his abusive ways in the pulpit. And as we just saw, he continues to tell other leaders in the SBC how tough he has it (J.D. Greear is the lastest). Under Mac's leadership, we have become a JOKE.

So please send an email to Mac, telling him to get on with the business of the church, ignore people who don't like him, and stop wasting your time posting on blogs and having the audacity to tell someone to shut their blog down.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:26


I believe you need to think about about what was just said. From what I understand the Watchdog is not the accused. Are you someone it the leadership? I am sure you are and will deny it. There are issues that need to be brought out and I am sure this will continue until everything is out in the open. This could also have been stop if the concerns were addressed. Blame it on WD if you want but I believe the church leadership should share the blame as well.

Anonymous said...

hey, anon 1:50, Im not even a member of FBC.
Would anyone like to watch a youtube video of REAL CHURCH? Its a beautiful video of people worshipping...and i'd like to interject it into this blog right now just for the whole spirit of worship of God..who this is all supposed to be for.
Israel and New Breed Alpha and Omega (full version)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"He's making a mistake, why don't some of you people who are his friends on here tell him the truth? Why don't some of you people who are supposed to be caring Christians at the FBC try to in a Christian way talk to this guy. Why don't ya'll act like christians or something????????????"

Anon 1:26,

Have you offered the same advice to people who are friends of Mac Brunson about his mistakes?

Didn't think so.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"But maybe they also need to be investigating people's Facebooks to see who might be saying something about Mac that needs to be 'shut down'."

Anon 1:46,

Perhaps you could send Watchdog some links to those Facebooks to which you refer?

Anonymous said...

WD,

Are you the couple? Is it you? OR is it someone else? Is John Blount and the Committee wrong? Are they charging the wrong person? Because I could see making a big deal about this if they were charging and humiliating the wrong person.

Anonymous said...

Let's talk about what a church discipline committee should be dealing with. A Church Discipline Committee should be dealing with sins of the church, like pride, greed, adultery, moral issues, drinking, not opinion. I know that this blog is a great source of information, however, there are many things that are opinion. We live in a country that gives us freedom of speech. There's nothing a Church, Pastor or Discipline Committee can do to change that. Unfortunately, many Pastors give opinion in their sermons... maybe we should be "compelled" by the bylaws and take Mac before the Church Discipline Committee.

Anonymous said...

Legal or illegal.... what happened to freedom of speech? I can say that this church is very good at Kangaroo Court actions. I have seen them in action before, when someone in power decides others are to be "gotten rid of". Very Christ like! More like a cult if you ask me. More preaching about money than souls. I wish the law was for the righteous people, instead of being twisted and used as a weapon against them. But I think we can get ready for more of this stuff as time draws to a close with the end of this church age. Gone is the "Priesthood of the Believer", and the autonomy of the local church. It appears that it will only get worse. We will probably (Baptist) be brought under some type of governing body similar to the Catholic Church, told what to think and do, emphasis on obedience to pastor. And TOLD what to do with our money as in OT Law. Not a church I want to be a part of. I will not to be in bondage to man or organization. Jesus is my Savior, and as far as I know HE has not put me in spiritual bondage to any man. I have no spiritual ruler over me. Rev.22:20: "He which testifieth these things saith, SURELY I COME QUICKLEY. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus".

Anonymous said...

Watchdog: Can someone give us a report after this farcical inquisition. This is a revenge action, made to look like a spiritual action. I think it is also designed to "whip" the rest of the people "in line". Hope it backfires. And of course, we know there will be a quorum of deacons present, even if there isn't.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Because I could see making a big deal about this if they were charging and humiliating the wrong person."

Okay, so let me get this straight. If it were the "real" Watchdog they were "charging and humiliating" (and the way I read it, it's not) it would be no big deal then? So you think it's okay to "charge and humiliate" (and I might add, lie about) a former member who has been "charged" with nothing but asking questions of the almighty Mac... and his wife for the "sin" of being married to him... and his children for the "sin" of being his children? Wow.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"We will probably (Baptist) be brought under some type of governing body similar to the Catholic Church, told what to think and do, emphasis on obedience to pastor."

Anon 4:18,

In case you haven't noticed, the power brokers of the SBC have been doing that for the past 20 years. Missionaries and seminary employees being required to sign the BF&M 2000. See past articles on Wade Burleson's blog for details about the ever narrowing (or should I say ever expanding?) parameters to which SBC churches are being subjected. "Priesthood of the believer" and "church autonomy" are terms of convenience, to be used only when the SBC doesn't want to do something -- like develop a database of credibly accused and convicted sexual predator "ministers."

Anonymous said...

I truly wish Pastor Brunson would have taken the higher ground at this critical juncture of this ugly public display of church disunity. A verse in Proverbs says that a kind word can turn away wrath or anger. As a minister of the gospel, perhaps Mac is called to extend grace to this brother (I know him and believe him to be a brother in Christ and not an evil man) who is blogging, instead of continuance of a discipline process even though the brother has left. Do they have a right to discipline this man according to scripture? Absolutely. But AT THIS POINT....one and one half years later, with the man going to another church (I'm assuming the person banned is the Watchdog blogger) wouldn't an expression of grace, forgiveness, and good will be what is called by the Pastor at this point?

I pray that the pastor will be the bigger man, and write something like this to the Watchdog:

Dear [Insert Name]:

I am happy to hear from a sister church in town that you and your family have joined another church and have found a church home where you feel you can worship and serve our Lord.

I am told by my staff that you are the one primarily responsible for the Watchdog website. Yes, our church leadership did attempt to exert church discipline as required in our bylaws; please know that we did this not as a means to punish you or your family, but to lovingly correct you to help you see how hurtful and divisive your website has been to our fellowship so that you would stop and repent. Perhaps we would have done a few things differently, like sending a brother to speak to you first one on one to present the facts we were presented as to your identity. Also, the issuance of the trespass warnings may have been a mistake, and I take full responsibility for that and wish to apologize to your wife especially. But still, even in that step we had your best interests in mind, as we thought it best for you to move your family to a new fellowship where you could respect your pastor and leadership and worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. We considered just issuing a trespass warning to you, but we thought it best for your family to move on and find another place where you could worship together and not split the family's church attendance by banning just one parent.

I want to express to you that even though you obviously still harbor ill feelings toward me and my family, I still love you as a brother in the Lord as I am commanded in scripture. I truly wish that you had brought your concerns to me personally, and I feel I could have provided you the answers that you have sought publicly on this blog for so long. I believe your blog has damaged the witness of this church, but the Lord is in control and am sure that He has great things ahead for us dispite this chapter in our church.

I trust that as you move on to your new church, that you will be able to put this chapter in your life behind you, and that you will discontinue blogging about a church at which you no longer attend, and that you would refrain from ever engaging in this kind of conduct again. I will pray that this is so.

Now that you are gone, I wish to inform you that the trespass warnings are lifted, and you are free to visit our church if you ever felt so led. I have told my staff and will tell our people to not harbor any ill will toward you but to love you in the Lord. My door remains open to you if you ever wanted to seek personal reconciliation with myself - and I would welcome the opportunity to meet with you at any time and place.

Blessings to you and your family and your ministry in your new church home,

Pastor Mac Brunson.


Unfortunately, it looks like for this to be resolved it will take the Watchdog to be the bigger man.

Who is right and who is wrong? It doesn't matter at this point. Its gone on too long. Watchdog has made excellent points and raised valid concerns. Some of the issues have been petty and needlessly personally hurtful to the Pastor.

Someone will have to be a bigger man.

This won't be resolved by John Blount, the committee of discipline or even a lawyer.

Someone has to be the bigger man.

Who will it be?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:39,

Get real. What does the accused man who is no longer a member have to repent of? What is this GREAT SIN that he has committed? Maybe your hypothetical letter should include an explanation of why the church felt the need to issue trespass orders in the first place. Did I miss the apology from Mac for _________ (fill in the list of abuses) and a promise to change his ways? You seem to be assuming the WD is the accused. I can't make that assumption.

From what I can see, WD has backed up his questions, allegations, and complaints with documentation including audio and video of Mac himself. Mac's words and deeds and just plain abuse are what is dividing the church, not a handful of "gossiping old women" on a blog. Get real.

God bless you, WD. May you continue to shine the light in the dark places!

Thy Peace said...

I truly do not understand SBC politics.

Jim Smyrl: GCR and Non-Essentials

Here is Smyrl interacting with couple of quotes of Tom Ascol. I now understand Smyrl is in the Akin camp and from whom TDM is being derived and also Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Did Smyrl get his PhD from here too? I also see lot of the courses being offered for Sunday School are coming from TDM and CBWM.

TDM: Curriculum

I thought Mac was close to PP and BI crowd. I guess my understanding is very wrong here.

BI crowd and GCR crowd do not seem to mix. But they appear to at fbcjax. What gives?

I am hopelessly confused.

I am sure, all the members who have been present at fbcjax longer than 10 years, will see the effect of these changes. Now you understand the direction the Church is going.

I do not know where all these groups end up, but I see the thinking behind them.

J.D.Grear: Pastor J.D., Are You a Calvinist?

Peter Lumpkins: J. D. Greear's "Are You a Calvinist?": A Brief Critique by Peter Lumpkins

Peter Lumpkins: Founders Ministries: Naive, Ignorant, or Out-of-Touch?

Tom Ascol: What will we be in the SBC?

Anonymous said...

They would not even bother with the 'discipline' process if the blog was not working so well.

The discipline process is a farce and not biblical at all.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Sheri said,
I can't believe the church is actually going through with this...don't they know they will be shootin themselves in the foot, and bringing even more readers to the blog??
I say BRING IT ON!!!! We are 110% behind you, Dr. Dog, and you are in our prayers. Stay strong.

Anonymous said...

A 15 million dollar budget, lawyers, judges, millionaire business men, community leaders, deacons, staff,...all against one lone blogger who has no media budget, no microphone, no gift or talent of preaching or oratory skills. It just doesn't seem fair.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:51

Welcome to today's new and improved FBCJax.

So when the church splits, I guess the Macites can meet at the satellite in St. John's since this is where he wants to have the church anyway. Follow the money.

Thy Peace said...

Ethics Daily: Burleson Details Ethical Shortcomings at IMB

Anonymous said...

OK, this is off track, but I found it funny.

http://www.bikejax.org/2009/02/bike-jax-forums-open.html

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Good one Anon.

Here is the hyperlink to the Anon above link.

They are making fun of Mac's "third place" commercial.

I think the Discipline Committee needs to investigate that blog making fun of their pastor's commercial. It might very well be a church member from FBC Jax, or even one that was once a member, that needs to be disciplined.

Maurilio, get right on it, will ya? Find out who the blogger is making fun of our commercial!

We might need to amend our bylaws to create a "Internet Police Discipline Committee" to make sure there are no bloggers currently members of FBC Jax or formerly members that are saying things unkind of the church.

Need to "shut 'em down"...."haaaaaaarrrd....."

[STOMP]

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Interesting development....one of the deacons present at the meeting was able to record the event. The footage of the meeting will be up later today.

Anonymous said...

New BBC...

Do you think this blog is only about asking questions of Mac?

If so, you are either fooling yourself or delirious.

I'll let you choose.

Anonymous said...

a friend of a friend of a friend told me that last night's meeting was to "show" the charges against the Watchdog. The discipline committee has decided not to pursue it any further since WD & family have moved to another church...

Anonymous said...

My friend also said The committee is leaving open the threat that the State Attorney could continue to pursue charges...

HA! If that is done, we can only guess that maybe the state attorney is possibly in someone's coat pocket!

My friend also said the deacons were told that the WD was SUSPECTED -- no proof of that, of course -- of filming Mrs. Brunson while she was out jogging & that's why they had to step in with the Law. To that I say NONSENSE! I suspect they were looking for any excuse to bring some sort of legal charges against the WD.

Filming the preacher's wife while she was jogging? Maybe they ought to investigate what pervert is filming preacher's wives who might dress provacatively while out jogging? I could just see the book cover now: HOT HOT NEWS The REAL LIVES of preachers wives.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and yes, my friend also said they were told the couple in question demanded an opportunity to have 10 minutes of time before the deacons but you were refused.

Now we can know a certain Deputy Dawg is making up stuff "out of whole cloth" as they say. He forgot to mention that he, the Deputy Dawg, had OFFERED the couple in question an allotted time at the deacon's meeting but it had to be under his rules and who would deliberately attend a meeting that is meant to end in a hanging!

Deputy Dawg thinks people are STOOPID!

Anonymous said...

Wow! Deputy Dawg didn't occupy a very high rung on most folks
"respect ladder" anyway, but now he's really taken a nose dive with this one!

He might have been the fall guy all along and just did not recognize the game. He might be too dirty to keep around these here parts and maybe now he will suddenly have a new "calling" to another church?

Anonymous said...

I wonder how I would feel if I was a deacon and now knew that I had been lied to?

Someone could come back & say that Deputy Dawg didn't lie --he simply omitted "unimportant" parts of the story. I was always taught that if a person doesn't supply the full facts of the story he is LYING!

Anonymous said...

I think if someone filmed Mrs. Brunson, that is commonly referred to as stalking. So, did anyone on this board film Mrs. Brunson? What is the evidence?

Anonymous said...

In the book of Matthew, Jesus was questioned many times. He even was questioned with the purpose of tricking him. He never stomped his foot in his replies. He answered the questions even those asked with malice intent. The contrast that our pastors are above ever being questioned is alarming. Mac would not allow anyone to question him while at FBC Dallas and now those who dare question him are accused of stalking his wife? Unbelievable. Nobody likes to be questioned but sometimes we have to humble ourselves and answer the questions...and sometimes that convicts us to change.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 9:29, so are you saying your friend claims charges were brought up against the accused man of him spying on, videotaping the pastors wife? That would be a crime, stalking perhaps.

So deacons present: anyone want to confirm that this was part of the presentation? Did they really say that the man accused may be a stalker as well as a blogger? Was this the reason of the extreme measure of issuing trespass warnings? Its starting to fit together. Perhaps the men agreed to issue trespass warnings because they were told the man is a stalker and presents a danger to the pastor and his wife? Why else would trespass warnings and threat of arrest be issued to a guy who they think has a website that has content they don't approve of?

This shall be QUITE interesting, if it is true that the man is accused of stalking the pastor's wife.

Anonymous said...

Man this IS going to turn legal. I am going to say this, all based on my own personal past experiences with the southern baptist church. YOU CAN'T THROW OUT ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT PROOF. Either you have proof of "filming" or you DON'T. Anything less that that is a smear. And in this day and age, with the technology available to people, nothing is private. NOTHING. Not even a deacons meeting. And might I add, whoever filmed this does not belong on the deacon board. You are betraying the confidence of your church. Yes, I watch this situation unfold on this board because I find it fascinating to parallel my own personal experience in the southern baptist church to this board. I know all about false accusations first hand. EVIDENCE. Whats the EVIDENCE? Doesn't there have to be some for the police to proceed on a complaint? (i know that too from personal experience.)

New BBC Open Forum said...

My conscience won't let me live another day without confessing my sin. Even though I'm not a member of your church, I ask that I be brought before the discipline committee and dealt with harshly. I stalked Deb Brunson and videotaped her jogging! Hanging head in shame... sniff.

Anonymous said...

This blog loses credibility if it begins speculating on rumors. There is no basis to believe the accused was accused of videotaping the pastor's wife. The picture from NBBCOF is also uncalled for, even if in jest. Let's wait and see what the letter from Rev. Blount says first. This matter may be over and it may be time to move on with other blog topics. Let's give the committee time to respond and the church time to act. And yes, if they made false accusations against the accused, he will be able to seek redress in the courts.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog:

I said my friend (of a friend of a friend) said the reason the deacons were given that they (the discipline committee I guess) decided to go ahead with discipline measures is when the owner of this blog was suspected of filming Deb Brunson while she was jogging.

Why was this said when there is no evidence of it? Wouldn't you go out the next time your wife was jogging & quietly get a photo of the guy taking photos??? Or why wouldn't you call the police & have them catch the perp?

But what can we expect of Deputy Dawg?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thanks Anon...Just to clarify, when you say the reason they went forward with discipline, I assume you mean the reason for their initial action in November? In November they determined that possibly the accused was filming the pastors wife, thus the letter and trespass warnings? Or was the possible filming of the pastor the reason why they RESUMED the discipline process in February?

I suppose if I were in a position of leadership and were shown credible evidence, or someone I trusted very much told me that the accused was filming the pastors wife while jogging and she felt unsafe, I might agree to issue trespass warrants to keep them away from the church.

But where is the credible evidence?

Sorry, getting ahead of things, guess we'll wait and see what the church tells the accused.

But if there are other deacons that can corroborate the story given to them last night that discipline action was initiated because the man was suspected of stalking the pastors wife, we would love to have you chime in here.

Anonymous said...

Was any information presented at the meeting as to why the Discipline Committee thinks the accused is the Watchdog?

Anonymous said...

Hi WD:

That was the story I was told was given to the deacons -- that the reason they decided to go ahead with the discipline process was b/c the WD was suspected of filming Mrs. Brunson. But also at that point they decided to contact the state attorney & that's how they could supposedly track down the owner of the blog by having the law step in and then I can only assume that it was by order of a court to get the blog ownership info.

My friend isn't giving any more info so I don't know the exact timing of things.

I can imagine also that a person would be nervous if they thought someone was filming a family member -- but why not call the police???

I don't get any of it! So I can only guess that someone was boiling mad & got the idea that the WD was going to pay -- one way or the other. I'd sure hate to be in any of those guys' shoes if this ends up being a legal thing.

The whole thing was a bad idea! FBC/Brunson/Blount/discipline committee have handled this whole process childishly from DAY ONE!

I guess we probably can't totally fault the discipline committee & deacons if they were given just a part of the facts. And I'm just guessing that they were given pieces & parts & not the whole story.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"The picture from NBBCOF is also uncalled for, even if in jest."

One of many anons,

Please lighten up. The behavior of Mac Brunson and his minions throughout all this has been pathetic. Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying.

it is written said...

Dr.Dog...Did I not prophesy that it was going to get WORSE and WORSE..Brunson and his henchmen are totally out of control!!

Anonymous said...

OK... this whole jogging video thing is ridiculous. If the Brunsons were seriously concerned about such an invasion of privacy, or stalking, or whatever, the natural reaction would be to use LEGAL means to stop it -- call the police, get a restraining order, etc. -- not a "church discipline process." And think about it: Debbie is out jogging, sees some weird guy taking video of her, and the first reaction is "it must be the blogger!" Give me a break. This story doesn't add up.

If it was told last night at the meeting as it is being alleged here, it sounds like it was a sympathy ploy to once again victimize the Brunsons. Look, I don't know if some guy was videoing her or not, but all I'm saying is if that happened, blogs and church discipline procedures would be the last things on their minds as they determined how to best deal with the stalker.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Do you not think if the Watchdog had videotaped Deb Brunson jogging (though I can't imagine why he or anyone else would waste his time) that we would have seen video clips right here on this blog? It sounds to me like the Brunsons have an extremely bloated sense of their own importance and/or they're very paranoid.

Anonymous said...

This doesn't make sense. I doubt it was even said: "But also at that point they decided to contact the state attorney & that's how they could supposedly track down the owner of the blog by having the law step in and then I can only assume that it was by order of a court to get the blog ownership info."

The state attorney's office would not take any formal action based on someone saying a person was videotaping someone else. Law enforcement would need to get involved first, a police report, and then some basis for filing charges would be brought to the SA office.

Also, IF any law enforcement agency (not the State Attorney's job at this point to do the police work) wanted to get any identifying internet information, they would need a court order that they could present to Bellsouth, or Comcast, or whoever it was. At that time, the internet service provider is required under Federal law to inform the person of the inquiry.

You folks are saying the church violated state and Federal laws and that the State Attorneys office was involved with this breaking the law? I don't believe any of it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Also, I don't recall seeing "videotaping the pastor's wife jogging" on the list of "transgressions" in the letter to the accused man. You'd think that would be right up there near the top.

Ghost said...

This is simply amazing. Did I really just read that the church most likely got a Judge involved based on a fictitious charge, and that Judge used the power of his bench to get legal authorities involved to reveal the identity of a bunch of "beauty shop gossipers??" This is appalling. Of course we don't know for sure yet, but if this is in fact true, I bet everyone can take a GUESS and figure out which local judge and church member did this for his buddy Mac.
If any of this is in fact true, this is a HUGE scandal that not only all of First Baptist, but all of Jacksonville should know about.

Again, I want to preface this by saying that we don't know the facts here completely, but we POTENTIALLY have the following situation:

An ELECTED Judge, who happens to be a church member, abused the power of his office to investigate a member of the church he attends, by request of his Pastor. If this is in any way true this Judge owes an explanation to the people that elected him in regards to this abuse of power.

Oh, and by the way, the comment that the state attorney is in Mac's pocket, and in anyway cares about a church blog is laughable at best.

Anonymous said...

Don't the Brunsons live in a gated community? I thought it was secure. How would anyone get into a gated community. Plus why would a "stalker type" want to be seen by Ms. Brunson filming her? Sounds very strange to me. Maybe someone filming was a realtor (?) and was going to put a home on the real estate channel? Maybe the filmer had a new camera and was just checking it out? Or maybe the filmer was moving and wanted some films to remember what the neighborhhod looked like. Anything else is pure fiction!!!

Anonymous said...

WD, two questions:

1.) Did this deacon record the meeting covertly or were they aware that he was recording?

2.) Have you seen/heard this "footage" yet?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I don't believe this is true.

I think this is a ruse to rile up the bloggers.

Unless I hear it from John Blount himself, I refuse to believe that action was taken against the accused because of some charge like filming someone or stalking someone. It just doesn't add up.

So let's lay off this, because there is no proof that this was said at the deacons meeting last night, and I would prefer to think that its not so, until we know it is so.

Anonymous said...

Guess who is speaking at Criswell College this Thursday? Yours truly. Any guesses on what he will be talking about?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ghost and everyone...let's just chill. Look at what we have here. One person posts something that says there were certain allegations in the meeting. We have no clue if that is true or not.

I have thought much on this and don't believe its true. I will reserve judgement until the accused receives a letter or email from the church giving the results of the meeting, as I believe this is what John Blount said they would do.

No scandal here folks, I refuse to believe that the church would actually be throwing around charges of stalking...again, its likely just a fake claim meant to rile up the bloggers and make us look foolish by carrying on about one false statement.

Anonymous said...

Here's my take on this: The church finally did get some "real" evidence as to who the blogger is and confirmed it was NOT the accused. So they are now back pedaling and are not going to take any further action.

Anonymous said...

WD, do you have the recording of the meeting yet?

Anonymous said...

How about this for fun?

All locals blogging here attend the meeting at FBCJ tomorrow night when this matter is brought to the floor for the congregation's knowledge. One by one, each blogger eventually stand up and say, "I'm the Watchdog!" or "No! I'm the Watchdog!" It might really add a little excitement to an otherwise sort of boring church meeting--when no solid evidence is presented to back-up the mistakes made by the present elected leaders trying to put a stop to the wrong bad behavior?

Just a thought . . .

Anonymous said...

Gated community and all. Not likely.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Anon 5:17 and I'm glad that WD is also trying to end the speculation and rumors about a so-called stalker.

It will be interesting to see if FBCJ actually does bring this to the church. If word of what happened at the meeting is true, it seems like FBCJ is just dropping the investigation and if that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't bring it up at all.

Anonymous said...

WD:

I'm telling you that was said at the meeting. Please note I did not use the word stalking -- someone else did.

The words were said at the meeting that they got real concerned when it was suspected that the blog owner was taking photos of Mrs. Brunson while she was out jogging.

Also note that I did not say that a judge was in Doc's pocket. I indicated along the way that if they somehow got action (from Comcast or whichever supplier, which is what they DID do)then it should be laughable. It just makes me wonder how the order could have been gotten based on what would be hearsay. With no proof, that's what it is, hearsay.

Perhaps you are right, WD, Deputy Dawg might have deliberately put out that jogging photo stuff hoping that someone would spill it to the WD and put the fear in the deacons so they would believe this person/persons were a real threat. My friend believed it -- I DO NOT because as I said earlier, why wouldn't you call the police and let them track down the pervert?

Also I'm SURE it was meant to be a warning when he said that the State Atty's office would decide whether to pursue the matter further.

By the way, my friend was present at the meeting last night.

Anonymous said...

This entire thing is beginning to sound like a Soap Opera. Lets call it "Days of Our Church", or As The Church Turns".

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:05 pm:

I already said that my friend who was there said they have decided not to do anything further since the accused has joined another church. But it was said that the S.A. will decide if it will be pursued further.

Anonymous said...

It is Written:

Did the accused move to your church?

Anonymous said...

anon 7:44

Right, why don't you perjure yourself on Wednesday night.

What a warped sense of what fun is.

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace,

Don't you have a job or something else to do during the day?

It's sad that you constantly have to give superfluous chatter to this blog daily. Does everyone up there ignore you/

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers - below is a post that some blogger tried to post here 6 times. I've deleted the name of the accused that he has peppered in here.

Very revealing. And great timing that this post comes in after the deacons met to discuss the accused. I guess now that the accused family's name is out there, more of these kinds of emails will come forth.

Its a sad time in the life of FBC Jax.

"zzzzzzz, why don't you stop the charade and move on with your life? All of this petty jealousy about this and that you and other have expressed. Who cares if a pastor is given a property? Only those like you zzzzzzz in your $zzz,000.00 home you purchased in 2001 and other petty people who think that this gift is anything other than a gracious gift from a very good man who has done this many time that I have known him over the last 30 years. zzzzzz, how about putting your money where your mouth, blog is and file suit. Under Florida law you will obviously recoup all of your legal fees and damages, because everyone knows that all of the hearsay, yes hearsay that has been published on the blog is just that. But obviously zzzzzz, you must be a pretty smart fellow. Go ahead and get legal counsel and sue FBC's socks off. I know than you will be able to take your multi-million dolar judgment and buy that dream home you always wanted and move out of your zzzzzz s.f house once you get rich from your slam dunk lawsuit from all of the evil, wealthy members of FBC. zzzzzz, go ahead and make something happen. you obviously have the "facts". Go ahead zzzzzz, come out of the closet, and oh buy the way, you can get New BBC open forum, thy peace, it is written, ghost, and all of the rest of the folks to join in. If all of y'all go together, all of you can get rich. Make it happen, stop talking and MAKE IT HAPPEN. Or maybe just take all of the aforementioned folks with you and start your own church. You can even blog it. I am glad that I don't go to FBC and have to put up with all of the lies and hatred spewing from your website. Maybe you can quit your cushy sales job and start blogging all of the churches. I am sure zzzz that you can make a substantial living slandering and stalking other churches in northeast Florida, but why stop just here. Why not go nationwide with all of the abuses of all of the evil people in all of the evil churches in all of the evil towns in America, but why stop there go world wide. zzzzz I am sure that your wife and daughter would be proud. But it all starts with going after the evil Team Brunson. After all he is pastor of that evil First Baptist Church, and zzzzz we all know that you would like to get rich because everyone knows that your writings are as tru as the Gospel. Thy Peace, Ghost, and It IS Written sure seam to think so. zzzzz I bet they would help you in your quest to terminate Team Brunson and all of his eeeevvviiilll henchmen. GO FOT IT111 SHUT EMMM DOWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN. "

it is written said...

Anon 9:20pm...No they did not..But I wish them the best and may the Lord heal them from this ordeal..

Anonymous said...

Does 9:38 PM not feel well, or can he just not spell?

Anonymous said...

the deacons were told to identify those who talk down the church and turn them in....



THE PURPOSE DRIVEN PLAYBOOK FOR CHURCH TAKE OVERS.

In the past ten years a lot of churches
in America and in other countries have changed from a traditional New
Testament church model to a contemporary Purpose Driven model, most
with sorrowful pitiful results. Thousands of churches have split,
closed, or had significant reductions in attendance. Most churches,
after having a brief upsurge in growth, either reverted back to their
original size or suffered church trauma by introducing the PDC model
in their congregation. It is important that EVERY church member know
if their church is targeted for a PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH (PDC)
takeover. Initially a small clique of church staff including the
pastor plans the change without telling the rest of the church
membership. Church Transitions (a PDC training arm) trains the clique
initiating the change in eight steps. The church is not to be
informed of the transitions until the fourth step. After the sixth
step if there are some members in the church who voice concerns the
following is suggested:#1- Identify those who are resisting the
changes.#2- Assess the effectiveness of their opposition.#3-
Befriend those who are undecided about changes.#4- Marginalize more
persistent resisters or questioners.#5- Vilify those who stay and
fight.#6- Establish new rules that will silence all resistance. Then
the members either accept the changes or leave the church. Rick
Warren, author and director of the PDC movement, says,'When you
reveal the vision to the church the old pillars are going to leave.
But let them leave ... they only hold things up.' So what are the
signs that your church is targeted for a PDC change?#1- Change in
music to a contemporary rock style.#2- Removal of hymn books...often
words on a screen.#3- Eliminating the choir or introducing a choral
'entertainment type' singing group. Repetitive praise lyrics are
used.#4- Replacing the organ/piano with rock music type instruments.#5- Dressing down to casual informal attire.#8- A repetitive 40 day
PDC study program stressing psychological relationships with each
other, the community and the world.#10- Sunday morning, evening,
and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times, named
differently or eliminated.#14- New versions of the Bible are used.#16- The decor may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the
'former church.'#17- The name 'church' is often removed and may be
called a 'campus.' Denominational names are often removed.#18- An
emphasis on more fun and party times for the youth.#19- Elimination
of altar calls or salvation invitations.#20- The elimination of such
words as 'unsaved,''lost,''hell, and 'sodomy.'#21-
Reclassification of the saved and lost to the 'churched' and
'unchurched'#22- The marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not
avid promoters of the new PDC program.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/wilkesboro-nc/T3435LK785LB5EROG

Ghost said...

Sorry if I may have jumped the gun a little. I did preface it by saying we do not know for sure, but I also misread and believed that was actually heard on the recording of the meeting.

Nevertheless, what I thought we may have come upon is the answer to the question of how this church obtained information on this couple. If this is not the answer, then we are still looking for that answer. Whatever means the church used to obtain information about a church member is at very least unethical, and would not surprise me if it was illegal.

Also, thanks for posting that comment left by a Brunson supporter. Doesn't that just ooze with the love of Christ?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Ghost - I directed that comment to myself as well, as I jumped the gun. The sad thing is that the accused will likely never know what was said about him, or the basis of the charges against him unless someone speaks up. I seriously doubt if the SA was brought up in the meeting, or that a concern was raised that the accused may have been photographing the pastors wife. The first can be easily verified by contacting the SA or sheriff's office to see what complaints may have been filed. But if accusations were made by someone in the church to smear the accused by saying he was photographing the pastor's wife, well, unfortunately that can't be corroborated unless a deacon who was present speaks up.

Until that time, I for one refuse to believe the church would stoop so low.

it is written said...

Anon 10:55am...EXCELLENT chronology explaining the methods used by PD movements proponents..Thank You.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers: below is a post made by an Anon this morning in a previous thread...sometimes new visitors or those who come across the blog from a Google search will post in an old thread that no one is reading but still relevant.

Below is the post.

Why all the jealousy of a pastor receiving property? Are you not robbing the man who gave the gift his joy in being able to give? Are you not robbing the builder his joy in being able to give? A pastor does not need to reveal this to anyone! I think it is a very small mentality to dwell on this. And trying to place any pastor in the same light as Dr. Graham is equally silly. Dr. Brunson does not owe anyone anything in this regards. I too have given substantial gifts to men of God in the past out of my surplus and being directed of the Lord to give. Perhaps it is sin on everyone's part who is questioning the direction of God in these men who gave to the pastor. Not one of you blogs has mentioned that. Who cares about what someone is given. Do not rob the giver the joy of giving, and do not rob the receiver the joy of the gift. Frankly, I of this petty talk sounds like envy, which is also a sin the last time I checked.

Anonymous said...

I’m amazed at just how much all of the comments on here ooze with the love of Christ. This is so incredibly encouraging to see how Christians can build each other up. This whole situation has gotten way out of hand, and nobody is willing to be the bigger man, turn the other cheek and get on with their lives. I feel sorry for the couple, and I pray for them every day, but regardless of who was in the wrong, it doesn’t matter now, it is over.

Anonymous said...

To the anon wondering what is wrong with the giving and receiving of large gifts directly to the pastor and not to the church...why don't you ask Mac Brunson that question. It is his Pastor's Guidebook that warns preachers to not accept such gifts.

Anonymous said...

anon 12:00
are you serious that no matter who's in the wrong it doesn't matter now? How about if it had been you or someone you care about? This wife is banned from the church she has selfishly served in for many years and that's o.k? Does the shepherd of the church not have the responsibility to be an example of what God's word says? (Note I did not say a pastor has to be perfect) But loving one another is pretty basic even without a seminary degree or knowledge of Greek.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog:

You say you refuse to believe the church has stooped that low -- that is, to contact the State Attorney? Believe me they did stoop that low. Or at least that's what the deacons were told the other night. That's how they convinced the deacons of the seriousness of the situation! They just had to track down the owner of the blog because there was slander on the blog.

Even crazier than the mention of the photo taking of Mrs. Brunson in her jogging attire is that the picture taking apparently occurred way back when they lived out at Amelia Island while their house was being built. It makes even less sense now! How could the deacons go for that lie? But I'm telling you that is what they were told at the meeting.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - appreciate your input here, but its just too hard to believe.

To believe what you're saying I have to believe that the entire process against the accused is 1000 times the sham I thought, and that someone decided to lie to the deacons so as to compel them to take the action of issuing trespass papers to ban the man and his wife from the church and start the disciplinary process.

Its too much to consider, really that the pastor and his supporters would go to such lengths in their zeal to silence a blog that they don't like. I just can't bring myself to believe it.

So I will reserve judgment, and think everyone else should too until additional information is received from the accused after he hears back from JSO, the SA, and Comcast, and maybe corroborating testimony is received from another deacon as to what was said in the meeting.

But the really sad part is, even if it turns out true...that the accused was lied about, and this was used to convince the deacons to ban the man, and used to get Comcast records - people at the church won't care. They'll assume the guy had what was coming to him. I'll say it again, Mac could moon the congregation and they would stand and applaud such a beautiful, full moon.

Anonymous said...

How do you silence the "Nays?" Ask the congregation to stand if they agree. That way, those who would say "nay" would be sitting, but not given a true voice to be heard.

Anonymous said...

I saw several people who remained seated. The same people stood with everyone else for the hymn which followed. In spite of what the minutes will probably reflect, it was not a unanimous vote.

Jesus Saves said...

It is absolutely pointless to try and say anything in reaction to any of the people on this blog, because you already have your minds made up that you are going to do what ever it takes to drag someone else down to your level just so you can feel better about your own personal downfalls.
It reminds me of that passage in Matthew 7 (NIV):


1. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4. How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


It looks to me that everyone other that the couple who is going through this situation has no right to be dragging this pastor and congregation through the mud, especially if you have not in any way been affected by the situation. The way the situation was handled was horrible; but just remember, God will hold each of us accountable, and who are we to judge other people? And don’t reply back with "What about the couple who was judged?" like I said before, God will deal with the situation; He doesn't need your help.

Anonymous said...

For the sake of those of us who do NOT currently attend FBCJ, could someone state what was said at tonight's service?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I would characterize the 5 minute motion thusly:

"We took steps to shut him down."

"We will shut you down if you do likewise - in the name of God, of course."

"Those in favor stand."

"Motion carried"

"Let's all sing a hymn to Jesus"

Sad.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Revised, left off the applause line:

I would characterize the 5 minute motion thusly:

"We took steps to shut him down."

"We will shut you down if you do likewise - in the name of God, of course."

"Those in favor stand."

"Motion carried"

"[Applause]"

"Let's all sing a hymn to Jesus."

Sad.

Anonymous said...

What was the motion? To approve shutting WD down. Please someone explain.

Anonymous said...

How can you have a business meeting unannounced?

Anonymous said...

How can they shut this down without going to court? And how can they go to court? I thought it was against their rules.

Anonymous said...

I can honestly say today I am enbarassed to be a member of the church and will admit I have not been to a single service since the first mont mac took over and know I never will again this is a shameful use of authority