"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Wartburg Watch Series on FBC Jax

If you haven't been reading the Wartburg Watch (WW) blog lately, go check out their blog. This link takes you to the main page, and this link will take you directly to their archive giving a chronological listing of their articles. For the past 2 1/2 weeks they have written daily articles on a wide variety of issues at FBC Jax - many of them are the same kinds of issues that I have blogged about for 2 years now.

The WW blog began in March 2009, and if you scan the archives you will find some very interesting articles about pastoral abuse, Calvinism, the "Quiverfull movement", other relevant church topics.

These ladies pull no punches. They have written some very hard-hitting articles about the issues at FBC Jax. They are from another state, and are impartial observers as to what is going on at FBC Jax. They interviewed me and my wife on multiple occasions, and as you'll read in their last article they even interviewed State Attorney Angela Corey.

The Wartburg Watch bloggers do share my concern over the state of the "church", especially power hungry SBC pastors who have a penchant for using power to do away with those who dare to criticize their actions and scrutinize their public words. They also are very concerned over the Jacksonvile Sheriff's Office subpoenas - and what it means to freedom of speech when law enforcement can so easily obtain subpoenas from state's attorneys with no stated crimes, obtain personal information about citizens from ISPs, then share that information to powerful religious leaders - that in my case resulted in the powerful religious leaders exacting their non-biblical church discipline process, and ultimately disseminating my name to the congregation.

The Wartburg Watch bloggers summarize their concerns very well in their latest post when they say:

"As we clearly state in our overview of The Wartburg Watch, we believe that Christianity is once again under assault, not only from atheists and the left, but sadly, from within its own ranks. We have pastors who achieve rock star status and believe they are “entitled” to their affluent lifestyles. There are pastors who have an all too high view of their own status, forgetting their own penchant to sin against the body of Christ. We personally have seen pastors drunk on their own authority and hiding their own inadequacies, who “claim” that people are out to “get them.” We have then watched, in horror (no, we do not exaggerate), as these paranoid pastors retaliate by seeking to destroy those who would try to point out “sin in the camp.” Grace and love are merely afterthoughts in a responsive reading. Old Testament retribution is once again in vogue with many second tier church leaders surrounding the pastors and shouting “Touch not the Lord’s anointed!”

Kudos to the Wartburg Watch bloggers on a job well done covering the FBC Jax fiasco.

Here is a listing of the articles, in descending chronological order:

**NEW** "Its Our Constitution, Too" - 9/2/09





"What is Truth?" - 8/26/09







54 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich,
Thanks for today's posting!

I just finished reading "Wartburg Watch" from the referal of "Thy Peace" on your last subject when I pulled this new one up!

Wow, these ladies pull no punches, are excellent writers and point out "facts", also, they make a point of saying they have no "horse in the race", but do they ever come out of the gate on the fast track in calling it as they see it.

Love their since of humor - very informative!

Favorite Sentence:
Is this a church or a frequent travelor's club?

Purpose Travel out of Dallas, Texas perhaps could help answer that question - yep, another family friend)

Anonymous said...

Mr. Rich,
Thanks for today's posting!

I just finished reading "Wartburg Watch" from the referal of "Thy Peace" on your last subject when I pulled this new one up!

Wow, these ladies pull no punches, are excellent writers and point out "facts", also, they make a point of saying they have no "horse in the race", but do they ever come out of the gate on the fast track in calling it as they see it.

Love their since of humor - very informative!

Favorite Sentence:
Is this a church or a frequent travelor's club?

Purpose Travel out of Dallas, Texas perhaps could help answer that question - yep, another family friend)

Thy Peace said...

Bravo to both Dee and Deb for investigative journalism and great posts. I commend you both for attempting to contact both sides of these issues, though one side has consistently refused to talk, except by issuing diktats and talking to the State to do it's dirty work.

The sad thing, yes the really sad thing is, Pastor Mac Brunson is a big fan of conservative talk radio. And there they routinely excoriate Obama and Liberal Democrats. All without personally talking or meeting with Obama. But watch out when they are being talked about. I hope Mac sees the hypocrisy of his actions here. I am sure he does not and neither does the Fbc Jax Leadership.

The best thing and Christian thing to do with Watchdog was after his identity was surreptitiously found was to at least attempt a Christian talk with Watchdog in earnestness.

If they are unable to do that, it would have been much better to leave him alone and to ignore him.

Even that they could not do. They had to make him an example to others.

Don't worry. They have made themselves an example here. This story will not die easily.

Lot believers and unbelievers see the hypocrisy of their Christ-like attitudes being shown at Fbc Jax. Yes, Watchdog's posts have been very, very critical and he has at times pushed hard. But it is the response that illumines the Christ-likeness of Fbc Jax or the lack of. Fbc Jax did not just push back hard, but engaged the State to reveal Watchdog's identity and then revealing his names to large groups of leaders for further dissemination and ostracizing.

Ms. Corey stated that their main concern was that Tom Rich, by his blog, could incite some sort of retribution against the pastor. From reading the posts of Watchdog and comments by Mac supporters, I would clearly say that some of Mac's supporters are the threat here. I truly feared for Watchdog's safety once his identity was blown.

Former FBC Insider said...

What a great series those ladies have done on the state of affairs at FBCJ and how they and Mac have mismanaged their position with you, WD.

I was happy to see that Angela Corey was willing to have an open discussion with them. If only Mac had taken that cue from one of the PR people he pays. What a different outcome we might be seeing now.

I also appreciate how the Wartburg Watch ladies allow posts from FBCJ and Mac supporters, just as you do. It paints such a clear image of who is left at FBCJ. They are taking cue's from Mac the Knife himself. They want us all to "butt out", and tell us that it is "not our business" if we are not members. What they don't realize is that it is also not their business as members if THEY should disagree with Big Mac. You and I know that one first hand my friend.

It saddens me how they won't even acknowledge responsibility for sailng under that pirate flag.

God holds us all accountable for where we are, where we go, where our membership lies, and who/what we give our/His money to.

Don't think He dosen't.

Anonymous said...

The truth only hurts If your on the wrong side of It. The Wartburg watch is great. Thanks for the link Dog.

Johnny D. said...

Tom,

I've been reading their stuff since finding some links months ago here at your site.

Highly recommended. W.W., you, and especially people like Wade Burleson, actually cause me to consider what I have done by walking away from Christianity.

To state the obvious: that's saying something.

Provender said...

Watchdog was never a threat. His only threat was in exposing questionable practices in a church. Not the kind of threat you need police protection from. Some of the comments by Mac supporters on this blog were chilling, and I, too, feared for WD's safety. It sounds like he was taking on some pretty big guns here, but he's shown he's up to the task. With publicity from Wartburg Watch and Florida news media, fbcjax will find it harder to play the games they are used to. This situation has repercussions far beyond the issues of one church, and it is important that these matters be out in the open and discussed. Thanks, Wartburg Watch.

Anonymous said...

Its good to see that you all keep singing the same hymn about Mac not meeting with Tom Rich. Perhaps you are ignoring the first verse where Tom hid and then covered up his identity. Its hilarious to see you pounce on the fact that Mac didn't call and invite Tom out to eat after they discovered his identity. That ain't ever (nor should it) happen.

The sad thing about the Wartburgs is that they are only presenting one side of the story. Not one of you has ever presented viable information from someone at FBC, Jax. Guess you need to realize they don't owe you an explanation of what they are doing. Tom won't be getting one either since he's no longer a member.

Blue Collar Cooper

Anonymous said...

Mr Rich
Don't you know that Paul advocated not taking a court case before a pagan court. Isn't Florida court system the one who failed to show up with the intervention of Terri Shiavo? Then why is there no aversion of taking your court case before such a system. You need to think about this, carefully as will as those at FBC Jax.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:15 For the record: The decision in the Fl court case could have been appealed all the way to the U.S. Supreme Ct. For some reason the Governor at the time let the decision stand.

By the way, Paul appealed to Caesar the highest authority in Rome at the time. Paul abided by the laws of the state just like the Watchdog is doing...its called justice.

Anonymous said...

Hey Blue Collar Cooper,
Whatcha say about Mac refusing to meet with Tom? More than one person tried to arrange a meeting and Mac is the one that declined.

Anonymous said...

One can hide behind money. Hide behind position. Hide behind an organization, friends, pride of place, even hide behind gates in a gated community. But one can NEVER HIDE FROM THE LORD.

To the Christian:
2 Cor.chp. 5 vs.10: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Anonymous said...

"Don't you know that Paul advocated not taking a court case before a pagan court. "

Try reading it in the Greek. He said for 'small matters'. This isn't.

If not, Paul would have not appealed to Caesar for protection from the Pharisees. Remember how upset they were when they found out he was a Roman citizen?

Mac is the one that made this a constitutional matter. He likes his freedom of speech from the pulpit but not on blogs?

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > we hold these truths to be self evident-FBC Jax > IT’S OUR CONSTITUTION, TOO!.
We were wrapping up the FBC Jax saga, and two commenters “incited” us to write one more post on the travesty that occurred in Jacksonville. You can read the antagonistic comments by “Cooper” and “Robert L. Peeples” on the September 2, 2009 post.

Dee wrote an excellent response to these two commenters explaining why we as Christians are now involved in the FBC Jax conundrum. By the way, if you’re a Christian, this situation involves YOU too!

Anonymous said...

Paul appealed because of the Jewish leaders that were trying to kill him, this was not an in house issue. Trying reading the ALL the Corinthian letter, he could have taken the young man to court for "what is not even noted among the pagans." I do believe that cases can be taken to court with wise leaders. In reading about some court cases in the last few by some prominent Christian leaders, we have very little understanding about advocacy where those cases have been a matter of "gotcha."

Anonymous said...

We are not as strong as we think we are. Let mercy lead....Rich Mullins

Anonymous said...

Paul appealed because of the Jewish leaders that were trying to kill him, this was not an in house issue. Trying reading the ALL the Corinthian letter, he could have taken the young man to court for "what is not even noted among the pagans." I do believe that cases can be taken to court with wise leaders. In reading about some court cases in the last few by some prominent Christian leaders, we have very little understanding about advocacy where those cases have been a matter of "gotcha."

September 3, 2009 2:01 AM

This is NOT an inhouse matter either. The Body of Christ does not look or act like FBCJax with it's charlatan ringleader. This is a constitutional matter. What the Pharisees did to Paul was illegal because of his citizenship. Same with WD because of our constitution.

But then if you think FBCJax is the Body of Christ, you would use that verse. But it isn't.

Mac loves his freedom of speech from the pulpit. he just does not think that bloggers should have the same freedoms.

Anonymous said...

As far as I know, Tom has never said that he tried to meet with Mac before starting his anonymous blog.

Nice try though.

Blue Collar Cooper

Anonymous said...

Mac loves his freedom of speech from the pulpit. he just does not think that bloggers should have the same freedoms.

September 3, 2009 7:35 AM

Also might be good for the Good Shepherd and his leadership, the "yes men/women to remember that FBCJ does not belong exclusively to them.

Sad part is that (they) don't seem to recognize that they don't have "all hands" on board of (this) sinking ship.

Anonymous said...

nice try bcc,
you can verify via Tiffany Croft's blog and this one.

What do you say about Brunson writing in his Pastor's Guidebook that pastor'should meet personally with unhappy church members but he didn't do what he tells others to do? What do you say about the same book telling other pastors that they should NOT live in executive homes, drive luxury cars, or accept expensive gifts? He did that too.
Really would like to see how you spin that.

Can't you see the forest for the trees?

Anonymous said...

As far as I know, Tom has never said that he tried to meet with Mac before starting his anonymous blog.

Nice try though.

Blue Collar Cooper

September 3, 2009 8:54 AM

Why should he have tried to meet with Mac? That makes no sense. It was not a personal offense. It was a public preacher (celebrity) misuing his position for personal gain and comfort and teaching some bizarre doctrines.

Paul did not try to meet with Peter privately before he rebuked him publicly for very bad behavior.

John wrote about Diotrephes in letter that was passed around to the churches without ever having met him! And his information was second hand!

This is a free speech issue. FBCJax is not a church. They have already proved that by their response to this situation. Mac wants the freedom to do and say as he pleases but he does not want that freedom for those who disagree with him. Can you say, oligarchy?

Anonymous said...

Thanks again "Thy Peace" for posting todays Wartburg Watch!

I read, set it aside, read again, set it aside as what they said truly spoke to my heart in several ways that gave me "food for thought" . . .these authors are as good as those who send in devotions for "The Daily Bread" series. (ouch, some will question my spiritual level now)

I'm from a generation of Horse Farms who have raised and raced horses. Unlike Wartburg's I do have a horse in the race - they are so right when they say "read carefully" as many are looking at you all through the lens of the faith.

The Wartburg speaks truthfully, the witness of FBC is a little tarnished - today I find myself wondering do I really want to keep my horse in the race or should I just pull a good horse out - is it worth it? Born and raised "never quit" and go to the finish line.


Interesting is the fact that I have asked "leadership" about some of the pulpit statements coming from various preachers and been told "I'm too sensitive on what they say" . . not just one individual but several, have said the same thing after I've questioned what was said. Is this a new theme song for members who ask questions - what it sounds like to me!

Remember I stated I'm from a "Horse Generation Farm" so believe me I have a very thick skin, and people who know me know I'm not sensitive!

As for the Wartburg request to meet with pastor - shame on him if he doesn't give them the courtesy of having a meeting with him.

As a member I respectfully hope he would be man enough to speak with the Wartburg authors. As they stated "they are looking at all of us through the lens of the faith"

Pen Pal of the Watchdog!

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:35

So no aspect of FBC Jax is not a part of the Body of Christ??? Even Christ Our Lord in the seven letters to the church gave the apostates a chance to repent. FBC Jax is truly messed up but I don't the Lord has written them off.

Anonymous said...

And that is amazing grace considering what the churces were neglecting to do. We need to get back to doing to the deeds we were doing at first. Revival and awakening is desparately needed.

Anonymous said...

Pull a good horse out - Definately.

Anonymous said...

Pull a good horse out - Definately! Why keep throwing your pearls to swine?!

Anonymous said...

The spiritual side of this church died when Dr. Lindsay did!!! Since then it has become a business existing for the advancement of people and agendas!!!

Anonymous said...

Leaders are always attempting to stop those who question them whether in church or corporations. Its life in the flesh. Hard to do right when one is stuck in the flesh! They tend to be thin skinned and unable to deal with their shortcomings. They tend to want to change directions quickly so they can take attention away from themselves or bad policies they try to invoke. Good leaders are hard to come by unless they are Godly and ask God for guidance on a daily basis. Otherwise they just sink further as they deal with everyone and everything in the FLESH!!

Anonymous said...

Pull a good horse out - Definately! Why keep throwing your pearls to swine?!

September 3, 2009 12:48 PM

My answer would be perhaps to keep throwing "the pearls" on behalf of Mrs. Rich as what the "swines" did to her they could do to others, and as I've mentioned before, I don't even know Mrs. Rich but she did not deserve the treatment she received from FBCJ.

When they (leadership) publically give Mrs. Rich the apology she is due, then that's the time I plan on pulling the horse.

I'll keep on running the horse, but I'm no longer feeding the swine.

"Pen Pal" of the Watchdog

Anonymous said...

When you call your pastor and the leadership of your church "swine" then you need to get out and go find another church.

That is pathetic.

Anonymous said...

When you call your pastor and the leadership of your church "swine" then you need to get out and go find another church.

That is pathetic.

September 3, 2009 5:29 PM

I agree, it is brutal and pathetic when the above "wound" and "hurt" the brothers in Christ with their ugly words that make headlines in the Florida Times Union newspaper, that was carried on nationally.

Using the word swine is no worse than leadership using the word "sociapath or coward" to identify someone's charater and reputation. Now this is what is really crude and pathetic.

Thy Peace said...

I just checked the FbcJax blogs of Mac Brunson and Jim Smyrl. Most of the posts have Comments Off or 0 Comments.

In lot of ways it is sad. For a Church that claims these Pastors are so popular that there are no comments for their blog posts.

If both Mac and Smyrl interacted easily with bloggers, including anonymous bloggers, all these problems would not have headed to such dire consequences.

I remember when they once allowed comments on their blogs, I posted two comments. They were promptly deleted. The comments I posted were in praise that they are allowing comments. This happened a long time ago.

Purifier said...

First reported on Purifythechurch.com comments section by us;

Look what I found. I see Woodstock Ga is about to be infested at the GBC convention on Nov. 9-10

Looks like the "Provoking" has spread.

Look who is coming to Dinner.

NOTICE the NAMES; BRUNSON - GAINES - HUNT - WHITE - AND THE ATTITUDE OF BUCKY KENNEDY. Only one missing is the Eversons, and I guarantee you they will have their noses stuck in this somewhere and somehow!

From the MEMO -

"Sunday night will start things off with great music from the First Baptist Woodstock Choir and then great preaching from Dr. J. Robert White and Dr. Johnny Hunt. Monday will keep the fires burning with the preaching conference that afternoon with David Platt, Mac Brunson, Adam Dooley, and Steve Gaines. Monday evening our convention gets underway and will conclude Tuesday evening with a celebration of state missions and a time of worship with Charles Billingsley and the Liberty University Praise Team.

To sign up for mission projects on Tuesday, please go to gabaptist.org and click on the “Love Loud, Light it Up” promo. I was recently asked if I was doing this in an attempt to draw a crowd at our convention this year, to which I responded, YES! A crowd of fired-up Georgia Baptists worshipping together, working together, and on mission together that we might glorify the Father and see souls saved. C’mon Georgia Baptist; let’s “LIGHT IT UP!”

Oh yeah, Bucky Kennedy is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Vidalia and president of the Georgia Baptist Convention who can not make decisions to sign something he agrees with "

September 3, 2009 9:39 PM

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > pray for Dee and deb’s pastors! > HYPER-AUTHORITARIAN CHURCHES: THERE MUST BE 50 WAYS TO LEAVE!.
Your blog queens are SO EXCITED to announce that we have recruited a guest blogger who will be sharing his insights on The Wartburg Watch from time to time. Actually, he has already done so. We fondly call him “Dr. Jon” because he is a medical doctor. He will be bringing a unique perspective to this forum. We hope you enjoy today’s post written by Dr. Jon.
...
I know of a well-meaning and respected Sunday school teacher who innocently stuck around to confront the possibility of ongoing sin within the leadership of his church. The wagons were circled around the leaders by the overly protective elders, and the messenger was isolated as the problem. The leadership painted itself as the victim of lies and took the better part of a year to generate a response letter which, not surprisingly, exonerated the church leadership. Meanwhile, during that year, the head of the elder board started a false and malicious rumor that the messenger had marital difficulties. When the messenger gave notice that he was moving on to a church of a different denomination, it was conveyed from the hyper-authoritarian pastor to the next church that the messenger was "not in good standing", causing him to be declined membership. He was told he needed to go back to his old church and seek reconciliation!

Anonymous said...

What a difference a day makes!

Reading todays "Wartburg" was a good dose of medicine, thanks to Dr. Jon.

What he wrote was not new to me but seeing it outlined in his perspective made such good sense, to stick around when (I) see a boat sinking - well said, the boat will sink by itself, with or without me.

I have total peace of mind, it's time to pull a good horse out of the race! I see the "wagons being circled around the leaders"

Thanks again to you friends who Blog here speaking the truth in love!

"Pen Pal" of the Watchdog

P.S. As the song goes "I Feel Good" . . .

Anonymous said...

Re: Speakers and "notables" speaking at the GBC convention. WHERE IS THE GREAT JERRY VINES?

Anonymous said...

Gaines and Brunson and Billingsley. These guys get paid several thousands of dollars to show up and "perform". Pathetic. But ain't God good. Don't believe me, just email Johnny Hunt and ask him. I am sure he will answer you since he himself demands answers.

By the way, guess who pays to fly those boys in first class and stay in luxurious hotels with great meals? The poor gullible tithers of the churches whose pastor's attend.

These guys know how to get money from every church and organization one way or the other.

Keep on giving, folks, keep on giving.

Anonymous said...

Concerning preachers and conventions. These guys must keep the "party" going, and the money coming. They get together "using Gods name", in order to slap each other on the back and heap praise on themselves, fooling few. They must praise each other on earth, because I don't think they will get much praise in heaven. My opinion from years of enduring "conferences".

Anonymous said...

These praise get togethers. Remind me of the reported party going on before the Titanic hit the iceberg! Sooner or later the gullible church members are bound to "wise up" and stop financing these self glorification sessions.

Anonymous said...

As a lifelong baptist, it is most disappointing that "so called divisive" people in a baptist church are treated so callously by a pastor and leaders when compared to other denominations: Presb., Catholics, and Methodist. I have visited these churches, and have relatives in them also. Why there is this phenomenon, who knows. They do stick together, much like the "circling the wagon" phrase mentioned in a previous blog. I guess that some just cannot take criticism.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic:

NYT > China Web Sites Seeking Users’ Names.
BEIJING — News Web sites in China, complying with secret government orders, are requiring that new users log on under their true identities to post comments, a shift in policy that the country’s Internet users and media have fiercely opposed in the past.

Until recently, users could weigh in on news items on many of the affected sites more anonymously, often without registering at all, though the sites were obligated to screen all posts, and the posts could still be traced via Internet protocol addresses.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog! I am a member of FBC who quietly sits there and wonders why I am still there. I think it is only the friendships that keep me now. This blog of the WW watch reminds me of many things, prior to Dr. Brunson, that gave evidence to the slippery slide. Both former pastors were also bitten with this same ego bug. I know this is "heresy" to those who remain subjective, but in truth, it was.

Two cases in point: Dr. Vines statement in a staff meeting that people were numbers and that the church was going after numbers. Second, sermon he preached where when talking about accountability in the church, he revealed that he was accountable "to my peers." Interesting, no accountability to the FBC membership, the Deacons, or Father.

Suffice it to say, that the ego issue existed long before Dr. Brunson. We just didnt want to accept it for what it was. As a citizen said to me recently: your Lighthouse on the corner of your building is the epitome of egotism! I think she is correct. A HUGE waste of money for who? the city? I think not. However, since the Lighthouse has been up, I can say that we have not had one shipwreck downtown. SO, maybe it does work.

Anonymous said...

I'm glad to see that we are finally hearing from a member of FBC, Jax--and one that is telling the truth. Mac isn't the beginning--he's the culmination of what you folks have put up with for years.

Take heart, he won't be there forever; but, the knuckleheads who called him will be...

Blue Collar Cooper

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

"Suffice it to say, that the ego issue existed long before Dr. Brunson. We just didnt want to accept it for what it was."

September 6, 2009 8:35 AM

I agree with you whole-heartedly!
When Dr.Lindsay left it began to go down hill.
The kindness of the Lindsays was replaced by a cold,distant egotism and we just did'nt wan't to believe it!

And now it's only gotten "worse and worse"!!!

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

Also if your are saying that Lindsay was egotistical I never saw it!!!

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > A NOTE FROM SILLY BOY.
How self-centered and self-righteous can you silly women presume to become? No sincere and earnest New Testament pastor would waste his time “meeting” or even dialoguing with such as you two. Too many other people need to hear a clear and effective presentation of the gospel, which requires that a pastor’s time be spent in study and other work. Many faithful believers also need his support and help with their efforts to contend for the faith, particularly when coping with the likes of you two and those other “silly women” that Paul wrote about in II Timothy (and in other places where he assigned them other titles).

Dee & Deb, could menopause be part of what drives you two to publicly mount your utterly silly anti-biblical attacks on people with whom you are not even acquainted, people who have never done either of you or your families any harm, --people who have done many other people much good and encouraged them in the faith of our Lord, Jesus Christ? They are not perfect, but, at least, they are not publishing public attacks against you and your loved ones, as you two are doing to them.

Anonymous said...

I would tend to think that Silly Boy is quite a Wise Man.

Former FBC Insider said...

FBCJ is the Shipwreck downtown.

Anonymous said...

My thoughts to the article posted on "silly boy" in recent Wartburg Watch.

No longer will pastors be able to bully people from the pulpit. If they are not humbled standing in the pulpit they will be humbled by the bloggers.

Anonymous said...

Why is it when SOME take the position of "pastor" they think it ok to insult, ridicule, judge and generally tear down the very people they are supposed to deal with in christian love. This "authoritative arrogance" destroys any good they might attempt. Having been a victim of this "procedure" I can tell you, all it does is destroy. One quickly loses faith in "preachers" in general. Fortunately, having been saved, and having in the past, a real preacher, I easily recognize these "professionals", and I move on. The sad thing is the damage they do to others that are not strong in their faith, and who really turn against "religion" altogether. Some "preachers" try to convince others that they are soooo "into" their ministry. They visit the hospitals rather then just sending another staff pastor to do it. They are soooo concerned about "some" of the "flock". Especially the "heavy tithers". They work soooo hard (for 10 minutes). Yet I see it as PR. Just acting. Why, do I say acting. Because I see the other 99% of their "works" as self serving. Give me the "old time" preachers. The ones that didn't get the big contracts, the book deals, the mansions behind gates, the trips, and THE CONSTANT PRAISE of the fellow preachers just like them. I'll pass thank you. These comments do not include you REAL preachers that are doing Gods work, whereever you are. God bless you sincere men.

Anonymous said...

As a member of the church for many years knowing both Dr. Lindsay's I can tell you that they were not ego driven. They always reminded us that they were servants and God did the blessing not them. Dr Lindsay Sr was a very wise and capable administrator and a fantastic preacher of the gospel. He lived modestly and bragged on the Savior, never on himself. He was never inclined to promote himself but rather the Lord who he served and followed all of his life.

Dr Lindsay Jr relied on the ability to pray through things long before he would bring them forward. He relied on the Spirit of God to reach people with the gospel, never his personality. He would often make remarks tha were probably not apropos, and jokingly would claim that Shirley would later get him for that booboo. He never took himself too seriously and tried as best as he could to serve the Master. He also lived humbly and lived a quite life away from the church. He was not interested in being the President of the Convention. He wanted to be the pastor of a local church and loved people. Anyone that claimed either Lindsay had an ego did not know either one of them. What a blessing it was to have been in the church under their ministry. I credit them with teaching me to love my bible and Gods word.

Anonymous said...

September 7, 2009 3:34 PM

What a sweet reflection and testimony from the above post.

Indeed both Mr. and Mrs. Lindsay
were humble individuals - they loved (us) as we loved (them).

My son had to leave the Conference the night the Lindsay's lost their son due to his work schedule and as my son left he had to pass the family who were all gathered together waiting outside the church to go to the hospital (my son had no knowledge of what was going on) but Pastor Lindsay noticed my son walking out "alone"
whom he did not know personally, and stepped away from his own family waiting in that moment of crisis just to acknowledge "a young man" walking out alone with a personal greeting.

Powerful testimony he left in the eyes of my son as we know "by nature" Pastor Lindsay was a shy man until he stepped into the pulpit.

Not once have I ever heard a critical thing said about the Lindsay's - sweet Memories of a true man and woman of God - they served their flock with "perfect attendance" to the very end.

We now pay a pastor a 6 figure income that is gone from the pulpit more than present. But to his credit, he did say from the pulpit to his audience his preaching is "free" and we pay him to go to "meetings". It's a new era!

Anonymous said...

Anon. of 4:58...Thank you for posting your kind remarks. It brought back so many sweet memories of these dear people. I knew them well, (as did others) and observed them through many circumstances. I can tell you they were sincere. There was no false facade with them. I can imagine they heard "Well done good and faithful servant", upon entering Heaven. Dr. Lindsay was indeed shy, one on one, but a lion in the pulpit. He never compromised the Lord, His word or themselves. There was never a question as to where Dr. Lindsay stood on matters. He always stood at the helm of the church, facing the Cross. I remember him saying many times, "We must always give Jesus our best".

Thy Peace said...

The Wartburg Watch > DISSENT AT TWO RIVERS BAPTIST CHURCH.
We are not finished with FBC Jax.Within the next week there will be updates. There are also developments with the Georgia Baptist Convention and we will be dealing with those. In the meantime, we will review another sad situation.

Yesterday we posted an e-mail from a staunch critic whose identity we have kept confidential. Although most commenters on The Wartburg Watch wholeheartedly endorse what we write, there is the occasional commenter who accuses us of “Baptist Bashing”. That’s not an accurate label if one considers the entirety of what we have written since the blog’s inception in April 2009. If you go through the archives, you will soon discover that we are “equal opportunity offenders”. We have gone after prosperity preachers, opportunists like Ed Young, Jr., C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, the Quiverfull Movement, etc. One of our primary objectives is to expose anyone who is an affront to the Christian faith.