And do not give any of your tithe "...to the Red Cross, or to Haiti, or to support orphans in Latin America...it goes to your church in an undesignated fashion." Steve Gaines, 1/31/10[See Video Below]
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Steve Gaines has hit a new high (or low, depending on your perspective) in his storehouse tithing rhetoric. I really am grateful for Gaines in being so open and willing to put it all on the table to help show how ridiculous and hurtful his doctrine is.
Sunday morning 1/31/10 Gaines declared the following:
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"The reason some of you can't worship God is you're stealing from Him. You cannot be intimate with someone you're stealing from....Some of you have stolen from God and paid for other things, and that means you're living in a stolen house, you're driving a stolen car, you're wearing stolen clothes, you have stolen jewelry, you're sending your kids to school with stolen money."
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Yes, in Gaines' view of scripture, Christians who don't fork over 10% of their income, undesignated, to HIS church, are criminals dealing in stolen property. And don't think of sending your kids to a Christian school like your wealthy pastor...until you FIRST fork over 10% of your income to the pastor's church.
Here is another humdinger. This is a good one, because Gaines now takes his doctrine to its logical conclusion, that we all are powerless to help those in need around us UNTIL we first give 10% to the church.
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"You don't give that 10% to the Red Cross, or to Haiti, or to support orphans in Latin America, or to buy this or to help with a seminary or a college...it goes to your local church in an undesignated manner."
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If that be true, THANK GOD that not everyone is a Christian, else there would hardly be any money to give to Haiti - only those who are not Christian would be sending aid since only a tiny fraction of Christians have tithed in the past 100 years. Did you ever think you'd hear a preacher of the gospel tell Christians that they should NOT help the poor, the suffering, and the orphans? I didn't either, but those days are here.
Who is really the God robber? Who is the one really that is wearing stolen clothes and driving a stolen car?
If anyone in Gaines' church has had the Lord place on their heart to give generously to the Haiti relief effort, or to help orphans in Latin America but they are guilted by Gaines to instead fork that money over to his church, I would say the person that is robbing God is Doctor Steve Gaines.
Did I just say that? You better believe I did.
On one hand Gaines' comments make my blood boil that he is willing to push this garbage out to his sheep to accuse them of dealing in stolen property to fill his church coffers...but in another way we should be grateful to Gaines. He is willing to extend his storehouse tithing false teaching to its ridiculous, logical conclusion - and this may help some people see more clearly.
I have to wonder: how long before Bill O'Reilly puts Gaines up as a "pinhead" for telling his people they are sending their kids to school with stolen money, and telling people not to give to Haiti and to orphans, until they first give 10% to his church. And by God, you can't even give to the church and designate that the money go to relief. Nope. Undesignated, so that Steve Gaines and his men can do the designating. You're too stupid to designate. And you're a God robber.
My hope is that people at his church would hear his false doctrine and make up their minds to give less to his church, and more to meet the needs of people.
This sort of brazen manipulation and guilt tactics to get money out of people must be met with one thing: Good old fashioned American capitalism, where people vote with their feet and their pocketbook and take their charitable contributions ELSEWHERE...anywhere but this man's church.
104 comments:
Dr. Dog -
This is by far the most outrageous statement yet by a SBC "Pastor" / CEO / WOLF !!
We keep saying "worse and worse" on this blog, but I honestly think this is the worst!
I agree with you. I hope his sheep read this and wake up. Hopefully many attended yesterday and were able to hear this heresy for themselves.
May God have mercy on Dr. Gaines.
Steve Gaines must be a client of Maurilio.
Yesterday, Maurilio tweeted that if you weren't able to go to church due to the weather, then stay home, have a family worship time, and give ONLINE to your church because......wait for it....
"YOUR CHURCH NEEDS YOU"
Question: Does your church need you, or just your checkbook ??
I wonder if anyone is wearing a stolen snuggie? If they are wouldn't that be the height of hypocrisy? I suggest all of the excess funds one has, go to his own family needs first, and the balance to the Red Cross (their local chapter}, as THEY NEED IT MORE!!!
WD - to take this even farther with its logical conclusion what Steve Gaines is actually saying is that you are robbing HIM, Steve Gaines. You are driving a car with money that was stolen from Steve Gaines. Because he admits it is "God's money", but you must give it to him, Steve Gaines, in care of Bellevue, to get it to God. (He does not want us to burn it on an altar does he?) So by giving "to God" he means to Bellevue, which is a corporate fictional entity, where he, Steve Gaines, spends it. His salary comes from that, his shoes and cars and schooling for his kids all come from those funds. So follow the money. When you "rob God" you are robbing Steve Gaines. And he does not look too happy about it.
"True religion is this...that you give 10% of your gross paycheck, undesignated, to your church's multi-million dollar budget before you give one mite to the orphan, the widow, the poor, the hungry."
1st Hesitations 3:16
Steve Gaines is widely understood to be an idiot. This confirms it. What sort of weak-minded people would sit quietly and listen to this kind of drivel week after week?
Mr. Gaines message really spoke to our hearts . . .we concluded and agreed after listening to him that no more of God's money will ever go to support the ministry of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida.
This message is a good example of the mega pastors who are pathetic and out of control yet stand in a pulpit, living a very affluent lifestyle teaching other young pastors to think the way they do.
We, like Jerry Vines on his final night at First Baptist will walk silently out the door (with our money) - this message was sorta an "Amen" to saying goodby to FBCJ . . .
If Gaines is accepting money from people that are robbing God, he and they are putting themselves under a curse. If he is a man of integrity, he will not accept these flawed offerings. I will be watching to see when Steve declares that Bellevue has refused to accept such offerings and has refunded the money and the only money they are accepting are the tithes of the membership and only offerings of those who are tithing.
Kerygma - most pastors are saying the same thing, just not as brazenly. We are all sitting there listening to it. And believing it and giving all we can, still.
"Does your church need you or just your checkbook"? Answer: YOUR CHECKBOOK of course. One guy already stated if you can't attend church, just SEND your money, they NEED it. For what, more snuggies, trips and rich lifestyles?
This is just unbelievable!!!! But, just let them keep talking. They think people are too stupid to figure them out. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!!
My question is: Who do these people think they are? How brazen is this stuff? Who do they think people are going to GIVE to? In many cases people are feeding and taking care of family members that have lost jobs and children are going hungry. Others have elderly parents that need care/medical aid. Do some of these guys really want to say that if you give to these family members and others in need rather than to them (the church) that people are robbing God? I think some of them qualify as OT Scribes and Pharisees. Maybe, in this case, he should not suggest NOT giving to charities. As one day if he ever needs a charity or the Red Cross, there may not be any money to help HIM!!! BTW, some of these guys don't LOOK like they have missed any meals. If I were in any church, hearing this stuff I would have walked out.. LOUDLY. My family NEEDS my help. I won't give 2 cents to these greedy people. If anyone believes this tripe of DEMANDING your money, or you are robbing God, then they ARE dumb. All I can say is they really are desperate when they spout this stuff. How do they look at themselves in the mirror? I would be afraid that "miss using" Gods word like this would put me in deep trouble with God. God knows the heart of these people and will one day JUDGE it. In the meantime, Got to keep up the lifestyle don't you know. GET A REAL JOB.(if you can find one) GO TO WORK AND STOP ROBBING PEOPLE. JUST WHO IS ROBBING GOD HERE? SICK. Just more "proof" that real church is OVER.
I have stopped giving and we should all do the same. This is not, NOT, what God meant by tithing. These are greedy scam artists preying on our desires to please God. All they have to do is convince us that when we give them our money, we are giving to GOD. NOT SO! Obtaining a 501c3 from the US Governement to become a Church does NOT make you a Church of GOD. It only makes your tax status the same as a Church. Becoming part of the SBC does not make you a Church. Stop believing these are Men of GOD. They are not and not giving to them is NOT robbing GOD.
This false doctrine will probably cost the church plenty, as the people start to wise up. If anyone needs any more proof as to what churchs are about today, this might just do it. They do everything but demand you hand over your wallet when you walk in the building. Talk about "bully pulpits". Notice there is not a STRONG emphasis on soul winning and JESUS..it's all about the MONEY!!!
Dear Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama, and directors of World Vision, Samaritan's Purse, Red Cross, International Justice Mission, et al:
I am sorry that I will not be able to assist you in your efforts to raise funds for Haiti during their critical time of need. My pastor believes I will be under a curse if I do not give 10% of my gross income, undesignated, to the local church budget here. (We do not help anyone but ourselves and have plans for new buildings and renovations, holy land trips, marketing gurus and lots of conferences to help ourselves.) They also say I am robbing God almighty, since I am only giving 8% of my gross salary. That 8% of my salary is actually about 65% of my margin or discretionary income. I would love to give to Haiti to help those orphans and widow in their time of distress as my New Testament (Jesus himself) asked me to do. But my pastor says I must give to our church budget instead. Please let the people of Haiti know I will be praying for them. And good luck to you guys in trying to raise this money. Maybe people that are not members of evangelical churches can help you out. All my money is to go to my local church budget, according to my pastor, who is God's man. Thank you.
Signed,
A loving, trusting sheep who relies on my shepherd to preach the truth.
You "ain't" putting me back under OT law buddy. Go get a real job. Maybe selling something or other.
"The looks on their faces testify against them." Check out his face and body language. Humble pastor? Servant? Loving shepherd? Or greedy angry manipulator who is a lover of money?
You who are giving to this man's "church" will have to answer someday a question from Jesus: "Why did you rob me by giving to this man instead of helping those in need?" Yes, judgment is coming for all of us. Not just Gaines and Brunson, but those of us who give the money to these guys.
I also wonder how many people are worshipping in Stolen Churches because the church spend the money on themselves instead of the work of God. Maybe if the leadership would stop to think that maybe the congregation is following the example of the Church. Now to this Store House titheing issue and follow Biblical guidelines. Part of the the tithe was to run and upkeep the Tabernacle and pay and take care of the priest. IF that the case why don't the larger churches make sure other ministers are taking care of in smaller churchers and provide for they needs?
Looks like these guys have plenty to EAT. Hope they don't mind if others do. You see your loved ones going hungry and tell me what you would do. The church once was where people went for help in desperate times. Now it demands "help" (money) from desperate people in order to provide for the "rich and famous". Perhaps it wouldn't look so bad if they weren't living opulent celebrity lifestyles. Money, gated communities, cruises, vacations, shopping trips, cars, expensive suits, and clothes and just the general "hateful tone while demanding money, and using God to do it. No thank you!
This wouldn't have anyting to do with the church's membership being about 1/2 of what it was under Dr. Rogers would it?
Perhaps he shouldn't have told those who don't like what he is doing to leave.
I guess he forgot that they would be taking their money with them.
"What sort of weak-minded people would sit quietly and listen to this kind of drivel week after week?"
Apparently quite a few. There was still ice on the parking lots and sidewalks in Memphis yesterday, so services at Bellevue were cancelled. That video clip was from a live internet message Steve Gaines delivered yesterday morning.
I don't "do" Facebook, but Steve Gaines has a page, and his "wall" is publicly visible. I think this will take you there. If not, go to Facebook and do a search for "Steve Gaines." His current profile pic shows him wearing a red and black zippered top and holding his little blonde granddaughter.
Read all the feedback he got from yesterday's sermon. The sheeple loved it! Hard to believe, I know, but true.
Dr.Dog did I not prophesy from the very beginning that these guy's would get "Worse and Worse"!!!
Where did I get this perdiction?
From the Bible:::"But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived.[2Tim.3:13 NRSV]!!!
Many Baptist churches assume it's their God-given right to tell you 1)what to think; 2) what to drink (and not to); 3) how much to give; and 4) when to be there (at least 3 times per week and more if you are truly saved). Gaines is just another mouthpiece for what has been taught for decades out of the SBC.
Read all the feedback he got from yesterday's sermon. The sheeple loved it! Hard to believe, I know, but true.
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Not believable feedback - this most likely was nothing but an immediate publicity stunt from a handful of people trying to counteract the negative publicity this sermon created.
The "fat cat preachers" love their paychecks - like the Country Clubs, they desperately need their membership to keep it out of the red - it only takes a very few "smart sheep" with lots of money to not renew membership to make a budget go belly up!
These comments were probably all sent in from Maurilio's staff.
The elders, deacons of FBCJ should all hold their head in shame for allowing the destruction of this church - the only reason they are renovating is to "hide" the empty seats that were once full of people. Not all the sheep with money are dumb - they are watching and listening!
I have heard Mac Brunson preach the very same things. It is sad to see that in many mega churches Pastors do minimum of 8 sheep beating sermons per year just on tithing. Of course they also preach other sheep beating sermons on service, church discipline and so one.
Where is Grace based Giving? It would be so easy to preach this and practice it.
All they would have to do is show the congregation the results of various ministries in the church and then to encourage and lead the congregation in Giving based on The Holy Spirit leading each believer in Giving.
Then they can skip all the sheep beating sermons and use those sermons to just preach The Word.
I would like to add this.
I have been listening to Pastor Wade Burleson sermons for more than 2 years.
In this time period, I have not heard even ONE single sermon on tithing. Not a single sermon on sheep beating. None.
It's amazing.
If all that we have as believers is a gift from God, how is it stolen?
"Many Baptist churches assume it's their God-given right to tell you 1)what to think; 2) what to drink (and not to); 3) how much to give; and 4) when to be there (at least 3 times per week and more if you are truly saved). Gaines is just another mouthpiece for what has been taught for decades out of the SBC."
YEP! That is why I go to the Methodist church now.
You realize that these megas easily push one down with their arrogance and personality, but they hardly ever put a hand down to help someone up. Not their style.
"Not believable feedback - this most likely was nothing but an immediate publicity stunt from a handful of people trying to counteract the negative publicity this sermon created."
If you look back at older comments, the feedback is the same... fawning man worship. And I recognize some of the names. It's not a publicity stunt. For whatever reasons, they seem to be sincere but blinded.
Thy Peace:
That's great.
I have been at the same church for over 17 years. Same experience.
Never heard a sermon on tithing. No sheep beating.
Very conservative SBC church.
They are out there.
Louis
Read all the feedback he got from yesterday's sermon. The sheeple loved it! Hard to believe, I know, but true.
February 1, 2010 1:10 PM
People always love a works doctrine. It is much easier to follow than Christ alone.
Matt
Malachi 3 states that they robbed God. By definition One can not rob someone of something they do not possess; one can only defraud that person of what is rightfully theirs. The people brought the gifts to the temple, the priest robbed God when they skimmed the offering before they put it in the storehouse. “Bring ye ALL the tithes into the storehouse. Stop blaming the people for robbing GOD!
Allen
"Did you ever think you'd hear a preacher of the gospel tell Christians that they should NOT help the poor, the suffering, and the orphans? I didn't either, but those days are here."
Whether or not you agree with Gaines, he is not saying you should not help the poor, the suffering...
He is stating that the first 10% goes to the storehouse. He sees the storehouse as the church. Right or wrong, he is in good company. He is not preaching a new doctrine to Baptists but one that has been preached for over a century from Baptist pulpits.
Sir, you are putting words in Gaines mouth by asserting what you assert.
I wonder what the church could do if every attending Christian, tithed? Golly gee, those homeless in Jacksonville could be ministered to in a better way (how much have you done to help the homeless Dog?).
If a person believes that 10% goes to the storehouse (church) then his conclusions are right, based upon their belief.
Obviously you disagree, fine but to lie about what Gaines has said is beneath you.
Brothers,
I fear you are treading dangerously closely to antinomianism. Nowhere in the NT is the command to tithe removed.
As a matter of fact, not only did Jesus not remove the law, He made it more stringent (commit adultery when you lust, etc.).
No one is saved by lawkeeping, however, those who are saved will love God's law and seek to obey what He has commanded.
Les
Ben - you have to do better than that. The sheep are smarter than you give them credit for.
If what Gaines says is true...then solid logical thinking leads one here:
If I am to bring ALL of my 10% to my church, no exceptions, and I am NOT to give my 10% to Haiti, the Red Cross, or orphans, then it stands to reason that a person who is giving 5%, who then finds that they have an extra 1% to donate to the cause of Christ, they MUST give all of that to the church and NOT to Haiti, the Red Cross, or to orphans.
Gaines in this clip and others has laid claim to the FIRST 10%. That means ALL the 10% to his church, and NONE to any other agencies.
So yes, he is saying that you cannot help these other agencies or causes until you FIRST pass the 10% point.
He also said that if you give part of your tithe to these other agencies that you are putting a "curse" on them.
Ben, do better please.
The sheep are getting smarter.
"If I am to bring ALL of my 10% to my church, no exceptions, and I am NOT to give my 10% to Haiti, the Red Cross, or orphans, then it stands to reason that a person who is giving 5%, who then finds that they have an extra 1% to donate to the cause of Christ, they MUST give all of that to the church and NOT to Haiti, the Red Cross, or to orphans.?|"
That is not what you said, Dog. You said, again...
"Did you ever think you'd hear a preacher of the gospel tell Christians that they should NOT help the poor, the suffering, and the orphans? I didn't either, but those days are here."
There is 90% remaining after the 10% if you want to personally help the needy. Gaines did not say don't help the needy, he said give your tithe to the storehouse (church). Right or wrong, he believes this. For you to say he said don't help the needy is a lie.
"So yes, he is saying that you cannot help these other agencies or causes until you FIRST pass the 10% point. "
This is different than what you said in your original post. Adding a clarifier after the fact does not change your original words. I do understand why you would want too. Care to show me where Gaines said not to help the needy, period.
Ben, you're being unreasonable. Quit parsing words, and listen to what he is saying and the effect of those words on the listeners.
Gaines knows, and you know, that only 10% of Christians have enough money to tithe. Rightly or wrongly, robbing God or not robbing God, very, very few people are tithing.
So when you tell people that are not tithing, which you know is about 90% of the people...that they must give their first 10% all to the church, the net effect is that these non-tithers can't give to other ministries or causes without robbing God.
Therefore, to tell a person who is sacrificially giving at the 2% level that they are robbing God and that the first 10% must come to the church else that person is a robber of clothes and houses - then the net effect is that man is being told he SHOULD NOT give to Haiti, the Red Cross, or orphans in Latin America.
Your logic sounds like situaitonal ethics to me. The Word of God has absolute truth that is for all people.
Nowhere in the NT is the command to tithe removed.
As a matter of fact, not only did Jesus not remove the law, He made it more stringent (commit adultery when you lust, etc.).
No one is saved by lawkeeping, however, those who are saved will love God's law and seek to obey what He has commanded.
Les
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Where, in the NT or OT, am I commanded to give 10% of my paycheck to the local body of new testament believers? Show me that, then we can discuss where the "command" is removed. And your logic about Jesus made the OT law even more stringent...well, I am speechless. Really Les? The gospel is that Jesus came to make the OT law more stringent? Wow. We have thousands of Mosaic laws then we need to be instructed on how to keep them on. But wait, didn't Pharisees try this with Jesus. Telling him he dishonored the Sabbath. Hmmm. I think I will go re-read his response.
Thanks Les. Your opinion makes no sense. Help us understand, brother, what you really mean to say.
Ben and Les,
You guys are too liberal for me. Stop robbing God by only giving 10% and then pretending like you have done what God commands.
The Isrealites in the OT paid 3 tithes plus a temple tax and left the corners of their fields unharvested for the poor. This amounts to close to 25% of their income.
If 25% was required in the OT, why would just 10% be sufficent in the New? Where does God repeal the 25% amount required in the OT. And keep in mind that more is always required under grace than under the law!
"Nowhere in the NT is the command to tithe removed."
Then that would mean you should be preaching a higher percentage than 10% if the tithe is still commanded in the NT. I believe it adds up to about 27%. But that probably would not go over as well as the 10%.
I am curious, Les, as to exactly which laws you think are not carried over?
And what do you make of the Temple veil torn in two? What does that signify to you. And how could a Gentile pay a 'tithe' and keep the ceremonial laws?
Matt
PS: The NC is about giving to those in the Body in need. The Holy Spirit directs the amount.
I do tend to get a bit suspicious with those who make a living off teaching a tithe system. If several of your congregants is led to give it to a brother or sister in need, that would hurt you and your profession, wouldn't it.
"The Isrealites in the OT paid 3 tithes plus a temple tax and left the corners of their fields unharvested for the poor."
Good point. AND.. The poor were not required to 'tithe' in the OC. As a matter of fact, the tithe was partly to help the poor. So, if a pastor is teaching the poor in his congregation they must tithe, they are not following the spirit of the law, anyway. Especially when they are living very nice lifestyles while preaching such a thing to the poor among them. It is truly shameful.
"I fear you are treading dangerously closely to antinomianism"
Just wondering how many went and looked that word up? That is a 10 dollar word meant to scare folks. It is not lawlessness to not tithe because "tithing" system is not in the NC.
Sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3) So giving only 10% might be sin for some. Depends on what the Holy Spirit is guiding you to do. Not what a pastor says.
Giving is in the NC but to those in need whether taking the Gospel OUT or the poor among us.
Matt
The most oft-retweeted comment at the FBC Jax PC, from Al Mohler:
"We have to make sure we are sending people on mission trips and not missions tourism"
Would that include pastors as well, who take groups on "Holy Land" trips and "cruises down the Danube"?
No one can locate the word tithe in the Pauline Epistles. This is the entire problem with those that want to hold someone liable for a false belief. You cannot deny the facts. One cannot truthfully prove or claim the NT UPHOLDS THE TITHE.
THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION TO THOSE THAT ARE IN CHRIST JESUS. SO STOP TRYING TO PUT A YOKE AROUND A CHRISTIAN THAT DOES NOT EXIST. THERE ARE THOSE THAT TEACH ONE MUST BE BAPTISED IN ORDER TO BE SAVED...ANOTHER FALSEHOOD THAT MANY BELIEVE UNTIL THEY READ THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES.
IF YOU DESIRE TO CONSIDER THE TITHE CHECK OUT THE BIBLE. IT CLEARLY DISCUSSED LAND, CORN, WINE, SEED, OXEN,SHEEP, MINT, ANISE, FIRST FRUITS...FIGS, APPLES, OLIVES, ETC, ETC. ALSO, CAN ANY OF YOU TITHERS PLEASE ADVISE WHERE THE STOREHOUSE IS LOCATED AND PLEASE DON'T SAY THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY RUN BY SOME GROUP OF SELF APPOINTED MEN/WOMEN WHO ARE WITHOUT AUTHORITY TO CLAIM THEIR POSITION AS CORRECT!!!
IF YOU DESIRE TO PROVIDE FOR THE WIDOWS, ORPHANS, AND THE POOR DO IT BUT PLEASE DON'T CLASSIFY IT AS A TITHE.
THE NT IS MORE PREVALENT THAN THE OLD AS THE OT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BRING MEN/WOMEN TO A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD LIKE THE NT HAS WITH THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. THE OT WAS A SCHOOLMASTER A SHADOW AND ONLY A SHADOW, A FORERUNNER. STOP RELYING ON SOME PASTOR TO TELL YOU WHATS IN THE BIBLE...CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF FINDING...THE TRUTH? THE TRUTH REALLY WILL SET YOU FREE.
I wonder if the guys that host these cruises and Holy Land and other tours give 10% of what they pocket? It is big business.
(In the interest of full disclosure and to avoid any confusion, I did not write that blog post. That and other articles dated 10-24-06 were written by the original "BBC Open Forum" whose identity I never knew and who quit after only 8 days. Comments under that name are his. I am "New BBC Open Forum," but my comments then were under the handle "notastepfordsheep.")
Look how easily Gaines pulls scripture out of context to say that Jesus says to us "you must tithe." He (Jesus) was addressing the hypocritical, pharisees that were under the law! I agree. If you are a hypocritical pharisee that is under the law, then yes, YOU MUST TITHE. Are you? Not me. I am saved by grace and under the new covenant. Jesus didn't like those pharisees very much did he? Neither do I. Wonder what he would call Steve? Nuff said.
I wonder if Mr Gaines would take my phone call and discuss his tithe requirements?
I will try. Bet he won't!
Dr Who
No where has the Danube River Cruise been referred to as a mission trip. The PDF document header for this trip reads as follows:
Danube River Cruise
through Uniworld Tours
with tour hosts Mac & Debbie Brunson
on the new “River Beatrice”
April 17-25, 2010
(http://www.fbcjax.com/Danube_River_Cruise_Info.pdf)
Also, as I recall the Holy Land trip was also called a "tour" not a mission trip. Lets get the facts straight here since everyone on this blog is always interested in the truth and facts.
Classless, or better stated, an elitist. Christ went against elitism...matthew 23.
Anon 9:10,
I took the "mission trip" reference to be tongue-in-cheek. You know, a joke?
But if you want to discuss the facts, perhaps you could find out what Mac is making off these "tours" and report back with that information.
I will tell you that until I read Dr. Russel Kelly's book I would have agreed in part on tithing. I read it thoroughly, thought on it, reflected on it. In thinking about what I wrote I felt much Luther did in regards to the issue of indulgence. The movie of Luther does a great job in showing this. You are actually cursed if you think you can perfectly tithe...way too many blessings, what about interests, other gifts, investments, etc. You can never pay back God and a fool in thinking in doing this. What about the storehouse, then churches better get rid of that bank account that is not the storehouse. Only 10 percent stays in the bank, preachers need to wake up and get a clue really fast on this issue.
Think, What is the first law that comes with a blessing?
What is true religion according to James?
"What is true religion according to James?"
James 1:27
"Think, What is the first law that comes with a blessing?"
This one comes to mind, but it may not be the first.
The tithe was supposed to go to the Church's storehouse to HELP PEOPLE. How dare these churches take the tithe and spend it on lavish surroundings and salaries and NOT HELP the PEOPLE. YOU CANNOT GO TO YOUR CHURCH FOR HELP ANYMORE. At best, you are referred to your sunday school class and given fifty bucks from a class collection and forgotten. The church figures its obligation is met and it is free to spend the tithe on lavishness. churches DO NOT FEED THE HUNGRY. THEY DO NOT CLOTHE THE POOR. THEY DO NOT SHELTER THE HOMELESS. We must do this with our "offerings above the tithe"????????!!!!!!!! WHY?! WHY?! does this seem absolutely INSANE! to me.
Also, as I recall the Holy Land trip was also called a "tour" not a mission trip. Lets get the facts straight here since everyone on this blog is always interested in the truth and facts.
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Fact is whatever you want to call it, a tour, mission trip, shopping trips, conference meetings, vacation, this couple are not full time employees of FBCJ as they are gone more than here promoting their own self image. From day one they and their favorites have hit the road traveling on the storehouse tith.
Look around - another truth is that last evening at the Conference the parking garages were near empty and auditorium only half full. That's a sad and embarassing fact but of course the Conference is going to be promoted as being one of the most sucessful FBCJ has ever had - and it very well may have been with the revenue they made off of Maurilio's sales marketing.
Pastor Rod, your insight great as it is "worse and worse" - Dr. Dog, you too are right, the sheep are smarter than people give them credit for.
These church leaders shoot bullets at the sheep all the time with a grin on their fat faces such as the reference to the "mission trip VS tour."
New BBC Forum, I believe you are correct. Have you noticed that the Lord allowed people to live initially 900 plus years, then half of that number, then half again, then 120, and lastly 70 years. If you average the daily statistics of deaths it almost always averages around 70. Those exceptions the ones over 90 or 100 could it be that they honored their parents and lived longer lives? I certainly hope so as the Lord is the one that holds life and death in His hand. Blessings.
PS: Of course, I have had relatives in the past that that lived into their 90's and never darkened the door of any church, and tithing was an unknown concept to them.
"Gaines knows, and you know, that only 10% of Christians have enough money to tithe. Rightly or wrongly, robbing God or not robbing God, very, very few people are tithing."
If tithing is biblical and God ordained, then anyone who makes money to live on has enough to tithe, or God is asking His people to do what they can't do, with His help.
"Therefore, to tell a person who is sacrificially giving at the 2%"
How does someone give sacrificially?
If tithing is biblical (I know you don't believe this), but if it is then giving is an act of duty to the One who is our Lord.
Luke 17:10
If tithing is biblical, to not tithe is a sin. If Gaines believes this then he is preaching against sin and leading his people to rise above the sinful choice of keeping what does not belong to you. Like robbing God.
What you have not established is that Gaines does not believe in not tithing. You and many others have opined how greedy... but you have not shown his heart is out of place. How can you do show this?
Blogger and pastor Les Puryear has put up a post that this blog and the NewBBCOpenForum blog are "dangerously close to antinomianism". Les states that he believes and teaches "storehouse tithing".
You might want to follow the discussion over there. Here is the link.
I continue to ask the question why 10% and not 23% like the OT requires. Where did God change the tithe from 23% in the OT to 10% in the NT? I'm am astonished that not one store house tithing advocate has even attempted to answer this question. I would seriously like to know how you can reconcile this seeming contridiction with scripture. Thanks.
" Anonymous said...
I continue to ask the question why 10% and not 23% like the OT requires. Where did God change the tithe from 23% in the OT to 10% in the NT? I'm am astonished that not one store house tithing advocate has even attempted to answer this question. I would seriously like to know how you can reconcile this seeming contridiction with scripture. Thanks."
February 2, 2010 11:59 AM
Too all you people that believe that the N.T.Church is under the tithe.
Before you blog anything else in defense of tithing.
PLEASE FIRST ANSWER THE ABOVE "ANON" QUESTIONS!!!
If you can't;then you have "NO" legitimate argument to support your theory::: "PERIOD"!!!
Lets quit quoting preachers that have very little Bible knowledge to tell us tithing is for NT believers. Please note that Martin Luther, John Calvin did not believe it. The most prominent in our lifetime theologians J Vernon McGee and John MacArthur don't either. End of story!!!
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > The New Covenant Emphasizes Being Led by the Spirit: The Old Covenant Emphasizes the Law.
On several blogs today there is an ongoing discussion by preachers and laymen regarding the practice of teaching what is called "storehouse tithing." The discussion is a good one, the only negative being the tendency of some to personalize disagreement by making moral judgments against those who view things differently than they do. Some who believe in "storehouse tithing" have called those who don't "antinomian" (meaning people who are "against God's law"), and some who don't believe in storehouse tithing have a tendency to call those preachers who do "greedy" or "selfish." My name and church has been brought into the discussion, so I thought I would take this opportunity to share my beliefs on the matter.
11:15 AM....What did you say? Incoherent!!!
"Therefore, to tell a person who is sacrificially giving at the 2% level that they are robbing God and that the first 10% must come to the church else that person is a robber of clothes and houses - then the net effect is that man is being told he SHOULD NOT give to Haiti, the Red Cross, or orphans in Latin America."
Apparently it's working. At last count the annual "Love Offering" (undesignated money given to the church above the tithe, most thought to be going to the Vision 2010 church building and expansion program) has reportedly netted over $1.5 million in receipts and pledges, the latter of which aren't worth the paper they're written on until the pledgers fulfil them, while the Haiti Relief Fund now sits at about $42,000. I'm sure some have given directly through the IMB link provided or the RC or other organizations, but $42,000 is a small fraction of $1.5 million.
Some might find it interesting to peruse the information published for a church with a $21-million annual budget.
"11:15 AM....What did you say? Incoherent!!!"
Thank you. I thought it was just me.
Word verification: login
Would someone? Anyone? Preacher or laymen? Pro WD or anti-WD, please tell me where anyone, anytime, in either NT or OT, gave 10% of their wages to a local fellowship of believers? Please.
Not cumin and herbs, not food to a levitical priest, not spoils of war, not a widow's mite. And where does Jesus ever tell the church to do so? (Not where does he tell hyprocritical pharisees that they need to tithe.) Thanks.
I do not understand why free individuals continue to subject themselves to this type of manipulative spiritual abuse. In my experience, the wealthy members of the church, for whom tithing is not as big of a sacrifice, are made to feel superior and put into leadership positions, etc. Their sin of pride is fed regularly as they hear these messages. Those less wealthy members who try to provide for themselves and their families, are made to feel guilty for doing so.
My husband and I attended a church that used these tactics not only to attain control of our finances but also our time and other resources as well. I don't know what happened, but one day we woke up and realized that our relationship with Jesus Christ and our desire to worship and serve him did not include being berated every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and whenever else they wanted us to be there. Once we decided to quit going to church altogether for a while, we became suddenly more focused on Jesus and much less focused on pleasing the church leadership for some type of acceptance or whatever.
So, there is hope that these individuals will wake up. I completely agree that they are much more interested in money than they are in saving souls. I have all kinds of stories about that from our old church! We finally started attending a new church -- a completely different denomination with a much different outlook on what true giving is. We must never forget that Jesus asks us to give all to him (not just 10 percent) and it was the wealthy young ruler who walked away, not the poor and downtrodden.
"Gaines knows, and you know, that only 10% of Christians have enough money to tithe. Rightly or wrongly, robbing God or not robbing God, very, very few people are tithing."
If tithing is biblical and God ordained, then anyone who makes money to live on has enough to tithe, or God is asking His people to do what they can't do, with His help.
No. You can have enough money to live on, and not be able to give 10% to the local church. Because giving that 10% means you no longer have enough to live on.
"Therefore, to tell a person who is sacrificially giving at the 2%"
How does someone give sacrificially?
When that 2% you put in the offering plate means you have put aside one of your needs to give to the local church.
If tithing is biblical (I know you don't believe this), but if it is then giving is an act of duty to the One who is our Lord.
Duty? Obedience? Does God want us to give out of duty? Or does He want us to give willingly, cheerfully, from grateful hearts?
If someone came up to me and told me, "Sister, I give 10% of my income to the local church because the Holy Spirit has guided me to do so" I would say, "Amen!"
However, if someone came up to me and told me, "Sister, I give 10% of my income to the local church because [enter a pastor's name here] tells me that I'm disobedient to God and a thief of God's money if I don't", then I'm going to sit down with the word, and point out some scripture about how we are no longer under the law, but under grace.
Brothers,
I fear you are treading dangerously closely to grace. Nowhere in the NT is the tithe commanded.
As a matter of fact, not only did Jesus not remove the law, He fulfilled it (having nailed it to a cross, etc.).
No one is saved by lawkeeping; moreover, those who are saved by grace will live by it.
Tom
10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "
Luke 17:10
And exactly how does this passage in context teach tithing?
You guys do realize that if you keep this up, you are going to realize that you do not need to follow a man anymore to know what the Word teaches and that YOU can be guided by the Holy Spirit in all things.
If you really start studying with guidance from the Holy Spirit, you will eventually find yourself surrounded by tons of error. Some small, some big.
Like the Catholic priests of old, pastors do not like that. It is Dangerous stuff for pastors making their living off "tithes" and having total influence over the sheep.
Matt
New BBC Open Forum said...
Apparently it's working. At last count the annual "Love Offering" (undesignated money given to the church above the tithe
As I understand it, the annual BBC "Love Offering" is like the FBCJax "Chest of Joash" offering. I suspect that there are other large churches that do something similar. And, of course, churches take up smaller special offerings all the time, and I'm sure that many people give designated gifts to special offerings or needs as part of every regular Sunday offering.
But ... if a person who is not already tithing (10%, to the local church, undesignated) gives something to a designated offering, then what they are giving to the offering is actually part of the 10% that the storehouse tithing preachers say they are obligated to give to the church, undesignated. Thus, whatever they gave to that offering is robbing God of part of His 10%, and the church should transfer that donation into the general budget to cover at least a portion of what the member owes God. If the church then spends that money on whatever need the special offering was for, then the church is using money stolen from God!
The only way for a church to avoid spending such stolen money is to keep meticulous records of each person's income and giving records to know if they are giving their required 10%. See how complicated things get when we try to live the Christian faith by a set of rules?
Has anyone considered what it costs the Wealthy to give in America?
Married Tax rate
10% of the amount over $0
15% of the amount over $16,700
25% of the amount over $67,900
28% of the amount over $137,050
33% of the amount over $208,850
35% of the amount over $372,950
Example #1
so someone making $500,000 (say a mega pastor) will get a 35% discount on their taxes for any charitable contribution.
So if they gave 10% or $50,000 that would reduce their tax bill by $17,500 meaning they really only gave 6.5%, the government (or other taxpayers)gave the other 3.5%.
Example #2
Gifts of appreciated property
Value of Securities $500,000
Capital Gains Tax $ 0
Net Gift $500,000
Deduction Tax Savings $175,000
Cost of Gift $325,000
At the income-tax rate of 35%
Isn't God good....
Once we decided to quit going to church altogether for a while, we became suddenly more focused on Jesus and much less focused on pleasing the church leadership for some type of acceptance or whatever.
___________________________________
Amen! This is what is happening in my life and that of my family. Praise God! All things work together for the good....
Matt,
I don't know exactly why you felt the need to bring up the "Catholic priests of old" comment. Are you trying to intimate that Catholic priests wanted individuals to be uneducated? If so, that was a long time ago. As a recent convert to Catholicism, I can assure you that the "Catholic priests of new" work diligently to educate members of their parishes.
Some things I do not have to worry about in the Catholic church include my pastor making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and living a lavish lifestyle (vow of poverty) or my pastor hiring his wife and children and providing them large salaries (vow of celibacy) or my pastor preaching doctrine outside the faith in order to enrich himself and his family (vow of obedience).
I was raised and baptized as a Southern Baptist. After hearing about these mega-church pastors and their lifestyles, I am all the more grateful for our humble parish priest. He lives in a little apartment in the church. He has made a sacrifice to serve Jesus. When I hear about Mr. Gaines or Mac Brunson and how they live, it does not appear that they have made any sacrifice to serve God. "Serving Jesus" has made them and many others very, very rich.
Brittany
Brittany, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for standing up to these Catholic-Bashing Baptists! I've wanted to for sooooo long but didn't want to be further offended by even more of their wrath. They hate Catholics even though they many won't come right out with it. Trust me, they do. Thank you sooo much for taking a stand but PLEASE BE PREPARED FOR THE BAPTIST BACKLASH. I am praying for you sister.
It appears that Gaines is simply stating that tithes are one thing and your individual generousity is another. Tithing and contributions should not be mingled. I do not think he is trying to stop giving to Haiti.
Why would someone want to give a tithe and designate it all to Haiti? So Haiti gets restored at the church's expense? That makes no sense at all. There is nothing wrong with the church taking up a relief offering, but it should not diminish regular tithes.
He is right and he does his church a disservice if he does not state the obvious.
Another totally irresponsible post.
7:51 - yes, he's trying to stop people from giving to Haiti, if they haven't met his 10% threshold. He said the first 10% must come to the storehouse (his church), and to give that to any other relief organization is to put a curse on them.
So if you give to the Red Cross part of your first 10%, you are either putting a curse on the Red Cross, or a curse on who the Red Cross gives it to.
Sorry, Entertained, the irresponsibility should be attributed to Gaines.
"Brittany, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for standing up to these Catholic-Bashing Baptists! I've wanted to for sooooo long but didn't want to be further offended by even more of their wrath. They hate Catholics even though they many won't come right out with it."
February 3, 2010 7:49 AM
Entertained and Brittany; "No" one on this blog hates Catholics!
But there was a reason for the reformation.
There are major differences between what the Catholic church teaches as Biblical truth and what we as Protestants believe and teach on core Biblical doctrines.
I have listen for years to Cathoilic apologist who refer to protestants as their seperated brothers who are in darkness because we do not agree on catholic teachings.
Am I then to says catholics hate me because I don't agree with there teachings?
My problem is not with individual catholics because I have some who are my co-workers and friends and I love and respect them!
Just as I am a registered republican and conservative,but I have many friends,co-workers, and family who are democrats and liberal.
Do I hate them because of their veiws "NO"!
My problem is with what the Catholics Church hierarchy "teaches" as Biblical truth just as Martin Luther had issue with them and nailed his disagreements on the door at Wittenburg!!!
The Biblical model is not to hate those we disagree with but to love them!!!
But my personal motto is "I desire clarity over agreement".
We don't have to agree on many things;
But I am required to love others as a true believer in Christ whether we agree or not!!!
TO Brother Rod, Thanks for your post. You are one of my favorite regulars. Just wanted to follow up your post. Catholics do have some mixed up doctrine and interpretaions but I really have never encountered prejudice from Catholic church members against protestants the way I have in the Baptist church against Catholics. As a matter of fact, Baptists and Fundamentalists seem to be the most militant against Catholics.
No worries. I am sure the madness will continue. Esp. when you have freaks like Smyrl proclaiming his hatred of us "Cult" members from the pulpit.
It would drive preachers nuts if they actually practiced the faith it would require to build a ministry off of freewill gifts. It's much easier to mix the mandated tax and guilt to keep themselves in business. They can't stand the lack of financial control; that's why they are addicted to crack tithing.
Great post Bro, Rod. I have been a staunch Baptist all of my many years since I was saved. But, I have many and major problems with the Catholic doctrines. We also know that Catholic hierarchy really requires a major "influence" in giving to the "church" also. But, like you I have Catholic friends that show much more compassion, acceptance of others and indeed grace and graciousness as I have experienced personally, than those of my own church of MANY YEARS.
Brittany: I also know where you and the blogger that has left the church to study at home, are coming from. Churches today, especially the SBC megas have LOST the calling and the message. These guys appear totally out for themselves. I see very little done for Jesus, very little soul winning. It is my opinion, that they aren't called to be preachers of the GOSPEL, but have called themselces to a lucrative "profession" of enriching and advancing themselves.
Steward:
Great Post! The part about these guys being addicted to "crack tithing" made me laugh out loud! :)
But on a serious note, if the organized Church is going to spend millions of dollars remodelling their own buildings, I believe you would make much better use of your contributions by donating it to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, United Way, etc.
And let me also add that it's a VERY SAD day in this country when the secular world is working harder to help the poor than the Church is !!
Still waiting for an answer.
I'm beginning to believe that no one can defend the tithe as practiced in the OT.
Unless I get an answer soon, I am going to have to conclude that:
a) storehouse tithers are ignoring the contradiction hoping it will go away
b) storehouse tithers believe what their pastor says and don't care if it contradicts scripture
c) storehouse tithers put more stock in tradition than they do the word of God
I'll repeat it again. Can't someone answer this simple question? Anyone? Buehler?
"I continue to ask the question why 10% and not 23% like the OT requires. Where did God change the tithe from 23% in the OT to 10% in the NT? I am astonished that not one store house tithing advocate has even attempted to answer this question. I would seriously like to know how you can reconcile this seeming contridiction with scripture. Thanks."
Some pew sitters Do like their pretty buildings.
The main reason many of these mega-church pastors enforce tithing on the people is directly reflected in their salaries and perks!!!
These men are "GREDDY,GREEDY,GREEDY"!!!
Greed,greed,greed in so-called men of God has been and will always be the defining sign given by the Bible to reveal to all who are willing to open their eyes and see!!!
This,This,This is what drives them.
Money,money,money Peter wrote in 2Pet.2:1-3!!!
Greed will always expose these people until Christ Himself returns and sets of His Kingdom of Truth,peace and equity!!!
Some people just don't get it. They think incorrectly that just because the pastor says something that it is the Gospel. Well, one day they are going to learn that these "fat cats" have no real interest in anyone other than themselves. Hold onto your wallet and get out of there ASAP!!!
It appears even in churches where tithing is preached the giving is around 2% to 3%. See also this.
Here's a quote from the Barna link:
Origins of Tithing:
Strangely, tithing is a Jewish practice, not a Christian principle espoused in the New Testament. The idea of a tithe - which literally means one-tenth or the tenth part - originated as the tax that Israelites paid from the produce of the land to support the priestly tribe (the Levites), to fund Jewish religious festivals, and to help the poor. The ministry of Jesus Christ, however, brought an end to adherence to many of the ceremonial codes that were fundamental to the Jewish faith. Tithing was such a casualty. Since the first-century, Christians have believed in generous giving, but have not been under any obligation to contribute a specific percentage of their income.
"I fear you are treading dangerously closely to antinomianism. Nowhere in the NT is the command to tithe removed."
How long have you been waiting to use that word in a sentence?
Where in the NT was the amount of giving changed from 23.3% to 10%?
Les, feel free to impress us with your vocabulary in your answer.
"I don't know exactly why you felt the need to bring up the "Catholic priests of old" comment. Are you trying to intimate that Catholic priests wanted individuals to be uneducated? If so, that was a long time ago."
I certainly did not mean to offend. I was stating a fact of history. If you did not know Latin, you did not even know what the Priest was saying and for a long time even owning a Bible could get you jailed. Even though it was in Latin and only the Priests and educated could read it.
Personally, I think Baptists and others are becoming like that to the degree they teach that only a few can interpret what scripture means for the masses.
Matt
I am also waiting. Can Gaines or Les or anyone show me anywhere in either the NT or OT that anyone gave any percentage of their wages to a local body of believers? Thanks.
Matt: I don't think "Baptist and a few others" becoming the only ones that can interpret scripture for the masses, will be anymore successful than "the others" were in the past. As a matter of fact it is my opinion, due to the ERROR I see, hear and read from today's scholar/clergy, less will be known, preached and generally understood by church members or the "men in the pulpits". It is called the FALLING AWAY of the church, in today's church of Laodicea. And BTW, since we are at this point of the Falling Away in this End Time church, all of the "Tithe" these preachers are demanding from people won't mean a thing, as money won't do them or anyone else any good. One can't buy their way out of anything, and one certainly "can't take it with them".
Friend, brother....it is obvious you have been deeply hurt. But shut this site down, and walk away. FBC has moved ahead and so should you. You are a smart guy with a great family. Just let this thing go and live life! Peace~
Thanks, brother. I have moved on, I'm not "deeply hurt", just deeply committed. Enjoying my family, loving life. If this site is distasteful to you, I suggest you move on, brother. Peace to you.
Friend, brother....it is obvious you have been deeply hurt. But shut this site down, and walk away. FBC has moved ahead and so should you. You are a smart guy with a great family. Just let this thing go and live life! Peace~
_________________________________
Friend, brother. . . if FBCJ has moved on, this blog should have no interest in your life and therefore you are the one that needs to move on.
Those of us, besides the author, who blog on this site do live a happy life and for you to ask that the site be shut down is so juvenile as FBCJ should be able to handle the critics.
As for myself, as a member I did move on when Mac Brunson placed a public ban on an innocent woman (whom I did not know) from being on church property. This action made my blood boil and still does and obviously a lot of others who have left the fellowship. I never want to be in a church that has lock down to keep "inocent" people from coming in.
Fan of the WD!
Anon Feb 3 10:17pm ...Sorry you have no interest in this site, however it happens to be an "eye opener" for a lot of us who were once in the dark but have now been enlightened. Men love darkness rather than light. Have you heard that? Maybe some of these men will recognize THEIR sin, get off THEIR pedestals, and look more at the less fortunate than THEMSELVES and become of more earthly good and really used by God. Every year about 1,000 Baptist preachers give up in the ministry....they were never called in the first place and they knew it, repented and found the right profession.
Hiding the truth NEVER is a GOOD THING!!! The truth is what counts and only the truth. The secular world tries to hide truth every day. The born again ones are actually the only ones that tell the truth so why try to ignore it unless one is part of the blind leading the blind? Jesus told the leaders the truth and they crucified him for it. Each man must bear their own cross and I for one believe Watchdog has his own cross and more importantly, his own ministry which puts a lot of these megas to shame. He also does not request tithes and offerings which makes him BELIEVABLE. THANK YOU.
Friend-Brother etc. etc.:
Since Watchdog already has this blog., up and running, just look at it this way, it keeps many of the rest of us from starting one!!! You obviously just don't get what many having been screaming on this blog. The inequities practiced by these self-called opportunist is astounding and has NOTHING to do with the cause of Christ!!!
Thanks Watchdog for providing this blog., to INFORM us of the many things that would go unnoticed and unchallenged. Thanks for the fine example of one that loves the Lord but doesn't allow opportunist to beat the sheep and call it a ministry. Kudos to you!!!
"This guy is literally too stupid to insult."
The behavior of people that claim to pastor and harass the sheep is so despicable.
These 'pastors' are surely the 'wolves' warned about in scripture. And their victims know no peace under their 'care'.
This is not about religion.
It is a sick, sick manipulation tactic by someone who needs to be brought to account.
Anonymous said...
"YEP! That is why I go to the Methodist church now."
February 1, 2010 3:01 PM
You'd better watch out as Steve Gaines on Feb 28th was a guest speaker in a Methodist church in New Albany, MS
We're all breathing stolen air too. Gaines included.
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