"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Sunday, June 13, 2010

"You Do Know that This is Grounds for Divorce, Right?"

The past 3 years I have received some pretty crazy emails, and heard some remarkably stupid comments directed my way, but the remark that takes the cake is this remark made to my wife by her former Sunday School teacher at FBC Jax shortly after the April 2009 news article was published of the outting of the FBC Jax Watchdog:

"You do know that this is grounds for you to divorce Tom, don't you?"

This statement was made after they had discussed my authorship of the blog, and this person claiming I have sinned grievously, and that if we were so disatisfied at FBC Jax we should have moved our family elsewhere and I should not have taken to blogging.

Then this spiritual mentor of sorts for my wife of many years, put the idea to my wife:

You can divorce your husband over this. Yes, take your kids and leave the house and drop the louse. Split the family, get a lawyer, your husband is a blogger. Your husband has authored many articles very critical of our church and our pastor and staff and members, so:

Divorce him if you want.

I thought my wife receiving a trespass paper signed by six prominent FBC Jax men for the listed offense of "associating with a member committing church misconduct" couldn't be beat, but the "divorce" comment sure knocked it out the park.

My wife was absolutely flabbergasted and shocked to hear this from the woman that she had looked up to for so long at First Baptist. It took my wife several weeks to break the news to me that this is what a prominent woman at First Baptist told her. And I wouldn't be surprised that there are others there who feel the same way: leave the loser, he's a blogger, a scoundrel and maybe worse. He dared harshly criticize the "man of God", and the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, so there's no telling what he is capable of.

I could rant and rave how this mindset is so incredibly cultish, as is the experience of how friends we had for years at FBC Jax don't call, and some that see us around our side of town refuse to make eye contact at restaurants and stores.

But I'll stop there.

I am happy to report that my wife loves me and supports me and is proud of me. And she has shown the strength and grace to endure it all without being bitter or resentful or hateful to those who have wronged her. She doesn't lash out and accuse and express hatred toward her husband's detractors, instead she understands, and with God's grace she carries out her role of caring for her family and loving her husband.

Yes, SHE is the godliest woman I know, FBC Jax. It's your loss that she is no longer able to serve at her church home of over 15 years.

66 comments:

Antibaptisss said...

Sounds like the self-righteous, swine eating, Sabbath denying baptissss I know.

Dog, be healed and LEAVE the baptisss church. They are dying of cancer and heart disease, divorcing at heathen rates preaching Jeeesus saves and not obeying ALL scripture or living, worshipping or eating like Messiah.

Forgetaboutit!

Johnny D. said...

That's a little strange that this woman would say something like that to your wife, Tom. Cultish indeed.

I thought adultery was the only Biblical reason for a divorce? Or, was she implying that you had committed spiritual adultery against your pastor? Cnn they be that strange?

Former FBC Insider said...

Oh yes Johnny D, they are that strange. And there are many more there that think that way. You wouldn't believe the cult following there at FBCJ.

By the way, I'm glad you're still around too. Love your common sense comments.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps that's the reason there are so many divorced teachers, deacons, committee leaders at FBCJ.
To think they are the ones with authority to give counseling to the members. Too many of these snobs do not have the gift of teaching - they do it for status.

As our friend quotes: Worse & Worse!

One teacher says this to your wife and another boldly tells our class(when I went to FBCJ) to pray for the deacon who molested and was jailed for molesting young boys.

Divorce . . .an ugly word that destroys families. Johnny D, you are right on!

The Pharisee said...

Unfortunately, my first wife took one of these dangerous ninnies seriously. In fairness, she was looking for a dangerous ninny to justify an action she wanted to take.

I know the contortions my ex's ninny went through to arrive a justification for divorce (which was not adultery by the way). I was wondering if the unsolicited advice of your wife's ninny ever came with a detailed theological basis.

It would be interesting to hear that justification.

debbiekaufman said...

The Convention seems to have taken their stand. Mac Brunson is a speaker at this years Convention according to the schedule. Mac Brunson is slated to give the 11:30 AM convention message. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Or I do and....

Anonymous said...

Tom, this is the sickest thing I have heard yet out of FBCJax. Aren't you glad your kids are OUT of there? Do you not see that the Lord shows you favor by allowing you to see FBCJax for what it is so that you would get out.

Johnny D, Actually, there are other reasons for divorce in the New Covenant but most pastors use the teaching on divorce as a weapon and make up their own excuses. Many times they use these sinful excuses to guilt women into staying in very abusive situations. Or making them think they are righteous for hanging on when deserted.

David Instone Brewer is a Hebrew Scholar at Tyndale House in London and has written intensely on this subject...especially on the passages where the Pharisees are trying to trip Jesus up on divorce.

Sinful Israel allowed for 'any cause' divorce. This could be over burning dinner. Or the wife could not bear a son. All sinful reasons. Jesus was refuting the sinful 'any cause' divorce quite prevalent among the Jews in Palestine at the time.

Neglect, abuse, adultery are all just causes for divorce. There is a lot of wrong teaching about divorce out there. Some forget that God divorced Israel. And some forget that divorce is not a piece of paper that the court confers. Divorce happens when the vows are broken. We tend to confuse the piece of paper from the civil authorities with divorce. In God's eyes, the divorce happened long before with the sinful behavior and breaking of the vow.

Blogging about a Pharisee is not one of the causes of divorce.

I will make many mad by this comment. We have had wrong teaching on divorce for so long that folks get real upset. The biblical causes for divorce are serious and we should take them seriously. But we need to take them seriously LONG before the piece of paper.

Anonymous said...

The Convention seems to have taken their stand. Mac Brunson is a speaker at this years Convention according to the schedule. Mac Brunson is slated to give the 11:30 AM convention message. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Or I do and....

June 13, 2010 10:48 AM

He is slated to speak because he is in the middle of a lawsuit and they want to send a message to the blind messengers. That is how they control things in the SBC. They think the messengers blindly follow them...and they are probably right.

The Pharisee said...

I should note, that one of the reasons divorce law was being applied so "liberally" in Judea was that you needed to be monogamous, to be a Roman Citizen.

Whereas a Jew might undertake another marriage to produce an heir in the past, to enhance his political standing in the Roman world, and maintain his other priorities, he sought to apply divorce law so as to maintain his eligibility for Roman Citizenship.

Anonymous said...

"I should note, that one of the reasons divorce law was being applied so "liberally" in Judea was that you needed to be monogamous, to be a Roman Citizen."

Lest anyone get the wrong picture...homosexuality and even pedophilia was rampent in Roman 'pater familias' culture.

Anonymous said...

What do you expect when you are believed to be divisive and causing trouble. You were "branded" a troublemaker and are thought to be worthy to be thrown under the bus. No reconciling for you (anyone who opposes them)...you are through plain and simple. Yes, this is cultish and unchristian and thats why we are living in the last days...good... will be thought of as evil and evil...as good.

No one has the right to tell you or your wife to get divorced. 1. Its none of their business. 2. The church is the Bride of Christ and is SUPPOSED to be the spiritual place where people are bibically advised...not advised from a wordly perspective, especially when it is UNSOLICITED!!!3. Where are the prayers to be lifted up for your family if not in your church?4. What good did 15 years of service in your church do for you and your family when a simple discussion of practices and openess occured? 5. If the church is interested in harmony and unity why didn't the pastor meet with you rather than deliver tresspass papers. Using other church members to do the "dirty work".

Maybe all of this will be sorted out in the upcoming litigation case. Blessing and prayers to you and your family, from a friend that knows how it feels.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - she didn't recommend that we get divorced, or tell my wife to leave me, but that she had grounds for divorce if she wanted to.

And yes, there is more to come up from the litigation that explains what happened with the trespass papers. It is a story too unbelievable for me to fathom, and it is one that I will tell in time. Discovery is still on-going.

The Pharisee said...

I think part of the point was that a Romanized Judea had adopted somewhat Pagan attitudes towards Marriage, Divorce & Sexuality in general.

Not to divert to other concepts, but "pedophilia" wasn't exactly an Israelite concept. God's law restricted sex to persons who were husband and wife but says nothing about numeric age.

Eve BTW, marries Adam @ Zero.

Anonymous said...

GAG! GAG! GAG!

Mac Brunson has the nerve to bann Mrs. Rich from the property of FBCJ and then today (6-13) tell the TV audience that "we are to love others compassionately" and we are to "love thy neighbor as Yourself" . . .

Such a hypocrite in the pulpit and makes a perfect role model for the Convention as one of their speakers. Lots of back slapping & Amen's for a man who as Obama, certainly moved into Jacksonville and began kicking B . . .he's one tough guy!

As Debbie Kauffman, I don't get it either, or as she states, maybe I do . . .the Convention has taken its stand. So be it!

Anonymous said...

"Anon - she didn't recommend that we get divorced, or tell my wife to leave me, but that she had grounds for divorce if she wanted to."

But think of this in another way...

IF your wife had left you and divorced, what a great defense that would be for the Brunson's in front of the church! You are a scoundral, even your poor wife agrees and had to flee from you.

Don't give them credit. They have already proved how evil they are. Don't think for one moment this did not cross the SS teacher's mind who already thought you were evil because she has been taught to think anything that questions the church is evil.

For those in the Harlot church, it is all about protecting the Harlot. It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

"Not to divert to other concepts, but "pedophilia" wasn't exactly an Israelite concept. God's law restricted sex to persons who were husband and wife but says nothing about numeric age."

I never said it was an Israelite concept. I was referring to Pater Familias which is NOT of God but the Roman Household codes. The code does not promote pedophilia but the concept of the code, has led to homosexuality and pedophilia.

Homosexuality has been prevalent in patriarchal cultures since Sodom. It is quite prevalent today in Patriarchal cultures. It was shocking to see how common it was under the Taliban!

Anonymous said...

Wow this makes me sick. What a bunch of judgmental kool-aid drinkers! I can't believe people at FBC Jax would say such things to your wife! That is unbelievable. Its not just the trustees or the deacons or the pastor. Its the members themselves too! I have lost even more respect for FBC Jax now. Religion and baptist churches these days have gone way too far and overstepped their boundaries by thousands of miles. If Jesus was still here, He'd "overturn the tables" at First Baptist Church. I am glad that your relationship with your wife has stayed strong. Keep it up!

Anonymous said...

Cnn they be that strange?


Absolutely. The baptists churches have turned into cults.

The Pharisee said...

"Homosexuality is prevalent in Patriarchal Cultures?"

Small wonder you're anonymous.

Anonymous said...

In defense of your wife's Sunday School teacher, she was only taking the deacon's charges against the Watchdog to its logical conclusion.

If a woman is "associating with a member committing church misconduct," the only way to rectify that is to quit associating with said member. Right? And if the two happen to be married, well, you get the idea.

Cult indeed.

Anonymous said...

"Homosexuality is prevalent in Patriarchal Cultures?"

Small wonder you're anonymous.

June 13, 2010 7:10 PM

Small wonder you are a Pharisee. I suppose you are going to tell me Sodom was egalitarian?

The Pharisee said...

Just asking you to source it, it's easy for anonymous persons to make claims like that.

I would not draw equivalence between Christian or Hebrew patriarchal cultures and that of the Taliban or your seeming claim that Sodom and Gomorrah were Patriarchal.

To my knowledge, no on is exactly sure which parts of the Dead Sea zone are the twin towns of evil, and thus it is hard to claim that they were "Patriarchal."

A little known fact or two regarding the Pharisees. Some Pharisees were involved in efforts to save Jesus life. They are the only sect of Judaism mentioned among the new sect of the Nazarene and Paul continued to claim he was one, long after he converted to belief in Christ.

Just so you know, Saducees are not mentioned, and later die out completely.

Anonymous said...

"I would not draw equivalence between Christian or Hebrew patriarchal cultures and that of the Taliban or your seeming claim that Sodom and Gomorrah were Patriarchal."

That is because you most likely do not view Patriarchy as one of the consequences of sin from Gen 3. That is understandable. Many do not because they like their pre-eminance. God worked around, through and even regulated sin in Israel.

"To my knowledge, no on is exactly sure which parts of the Dead Sea zone are the twin towns of evil, and thus it is hard to claim that they were "Patriarchal."

Almost all the early pagan cultures were also Patriarchal. Some even made human sacrfices of virgin girls. Homosexuality was certainly a common practice in Sodom. Even to the point that Lot offered his two daughters up to be gang raped instead of his male guests (really angels) by the mob.

Anonymous said...

Do they drink Beer at FBC Jax? Because that sounds like something you would here at your local Pool Hall. I am sick and tired of these Southern Baptist women that get hooked on Oprah.
Why don't we play some Michael Jackson at the next Worship Service at FBC Jax and let him sing his hit song as a hint to Mac....Beat It!

Provender said...

The comments about FBCJAX being cultlike are not far off the mark.
From a spiritual abuse survey on a site that looks at cultlike and spiritually abusive behavior in churches are the following characteristics to watch for:

•Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?

•Does the head of your church, along with the other “leaders”, use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?

•Does the head of your church and his “fellow elders” appear to be intolerant or consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?

•Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"; a “danger to your spiritual welfare”?

•Is leaving your church to join another church that “is not approved by your elders” equal to leaving God?

•Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?

•At church, is there a sense of control, rather than support?

•Is there a relentless obsession of reminding the sheep of “who’s in authority”?

•Are you told not to ask questions as to why others have left? Are you told to accept the statements that “your elders” give you?

These are just the first questions listed at http://www.wickedshepherds.com/SpiritualAbuseSurvey.html

Many behaviors common at this church fit the pattern.

FMBJr said...

Ok I am glad I wasn't drinking anything cause I would have spit it out laughing. That woman's husband sure needs to watch his steps or he is out the door.

How ludicrous. Is there any men in that Sunday School class? If so I am calling Paige Patterson.

Anonymous said...

According to the Bible, the wife sanctifies the husband which would dispel any notion of divorce on such silly grounds. Neither the SS teacher nor the pastor is the HEAD of any family (male and female union) except their own and only when they are MALE!!! I believe someone has given some poor advice to a fellow Christian and needs to apologize and the sooner the better even at this late date.

Marriage is an honorable state and one should never put themselves between God and any family, particularly those that attend a church on a regular basis and have no intention of seeking divorce. How arrogant to recommend a divorce to a fellow christian that has not solicited this advice.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Again, a flat out recommendation of a divorce was not stated, but this spiritual "guru" decided that she should let my wife know she had grounds for a divorce.

How lovely.

But as one anon said, I suppose if one were to look at the letter and the trespass warnings telling my wife that she was "associating with" a person who is committing church misconduct and thus is not allowed on the property for that reason - that would be an assumption: stop associating with the scoundrel until he repents and submits to our authority.

And the ole "church misconduct" JSO trespass warning told her also - even the cops don't like her associating with me.

Maybe my wife is a coward too, "the coward that she is", she didn't do what they told her to do.

:)

Anonymous said...

Are you a very sensitive individual? This is not that big a deal. People tell my wife in jest..."I don't see how you can stay with him?". WHATS THE BIG DEAL? That Sunday School lady was probably just kidding!!

This incident is Shakespearean...Much ado about nothing!

You whine about Mac, about Ergun, now your negative about Sunday School teachers....all of this is not that big a deal...GROW UP BRO!

Anonymous said...

"Are you a very sensitive individual? This is not that big a deal. People tell my wife in jest..."I don't see how you can stay with him?". WHATS THE BIG DEAL? That Sunday School lady was probably just kidding!!"

A sick joke, perhaps, considering the circumstances at the time of said 'sick' joke. Perhaps she needs to study the passage that includes course jesting.


"You whine about Mac, about Ergun, now your negative about Sunday School teachers....all of this is not that big a deal...GROW UP BRO!"

Let me guess...a follower of Mac. Don't worry, we do not expect you to know better.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Just tellin' the story....BRO!!!

And it wasn't a casual conversation, it was a serious convesation between an older woman very respected in the church as a mentor for younger woman. It was a conversation typical in spiritually abusive situations in church. Get the family member to turn on the recalcitrant. And taken in the context of the church issuing trespass warnings against a woman who was known by 100's in the church for the "sin", well, I guess maybe just being sensitive.

Thanks Bro!

Anonymous said...

"According to the Bible, the wife sanctifies the husband which would dispel any notion of divorce on such silly grounds. "

Huh? I thought only the power of the Holy Spirit could do that.

Anonymous said...

Someone asked me once, "Why did you leave the church"? My answer: "I didn't leave it....it left me". Indeed the church today is NOT what it once was. No where near it!!! I stay close to Jesus and in His word. The church has failed me.

debbiekaufman said...

Anonymous who said that the SS teacher was just kidding. That is foolish talk on your part. Stop it.

Anonymous said...

Couldn't have said it better, WD! Exactly the reason my family moved on. ( Way too much cult like behavior going on) Very difficult but extremely necessary once you see things as they truly are.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous who said that the SS teacher was just kidding. That is foolish talk on your part. Stop it.

June 13, 2010 11:23 PM

Debbie has spoken. She expects to be obeyed.

Junkster said...

Antibaptisss said...

Sounds like the self-righteous, swine eating, Sabbath denying baptissss I know.

Dog, be healed and LEAVE the baptisss church. They are dying of cancer and heart disease, divorcing at heathen rates preaching Jeeesus saves and not obeying ALL scripture or living, worshipping or eating like Messiah.

Forgetaboutit!


Spoken like a true Judaizing Pharisee -- something actually worse than a "baptisss"...

Anonymous said...

"Get the family member to turn on the recalcitrant. And taken in the context of the church issuing trespass warnings against a woman who was known by 100's in the church for the "sin", well, I guess maybe just being sensitive.
"

I suppose one who supports FBCJax has to think her words were a joke because the alternative is unthinkable of one who teaches the Word.

But now, I hardly think the woman was qualified to teach. Perhaps someday, you can make the name known so others can be warned away her teaching. We must warn and protect other sheep. AFter that, it is up to them.

Provender said...

Anon 10:57
It's not oversensitivity to take a comment like this for what it was. Spiritual abuse is no joke.
What WD describes is not unfamiliar in abusive groups. Another account is here: http://wickedshepherds.com/AWordtotheWives.html

on a site called A Word to the Wives.

An excerpt: The "elder" was in the house for less than 10 minutes when he turns and says to my wife, “..Well Barb, have you ever thought about separation?..” I said, “WHAT! How dare you come into my house and plant that evil, diabolical seed into my wife’s head!”

I should have thrown him out, but I didn’t.

It's not unusual in abusive groups to find this tactic -planting the idea of a separation to promote discord and to strengthen abusive leaders' positions.

Bro./Pastor Rod H. said...

Dr.Dog the attitude of this so called SS teacher does'nt surprise me at all.
I work with a member of FBCJ and I recently mentioned you and your blog,and I thought that this man would blow a gasket.

The instant emotional anger he displayed was very surprising;Because normally he is mild mannered and polite.

Also this revelation of the SS teacher just continues to reveal to all,the effects of manipulative pastors(leaders)on those who are Scripturally weak an undiscerning.

Just another story Dr.Dog that fulfills the Biblical truth;it just keeps getting..."WORSE AND WORSE"[2Tim.3-13]!!!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Someone asked me once, "Why did you leave the church"? My answer: "I didn't leave it....it left me". Indeed the church today is NOT what it once was. No where near it!!! I stay close to Jesus and in His word. The church has failed me.

June 13, 2010 11:09 PM

So true! The mega I left is just s shell of the great church it once was. Those who voiced genuine concern over the new pastor's
"redesigning" the church in his own image were told to leave and find another church. No attempts were made to reconcile with longtime members who left. The trash was thrown out and good riddance. The church is now on the fast track of being a seeker-friendly church but also has about half the membership it once had.

Anonymous said...

I think we all have to admit it, though: in the heat of the moment in our churches, when it seems we should say something but don't really know what to say, we go ahead and state some ABSOLUTELY STUPID AND FOOLISH THINGS to each other and blame it on the Bible. What's even more stupid and foolish is the be the minister in charge of adult education in a local church (e.g., FBCJ) and know that this kind of thing is said, but to do nothing right about it---now that's REALLY STUPID (but no longer UNEXPECTED in this case?).

Why does ANYONE remain at a church like it appears FBCJ has become??

Anonymous said...

"Are you a very sensitive individual? This is not that big a deal. People tell my wife in jest..."I don't see how you can stay with him?". WHATS THE BIG DEAL? That Sunday School lady was probably just kidding!!"

=================================
Anon 10:57: Think you just blew your cover - some of us have a pretty good idea of just who you are now - you run with Mac's crowd don't you! :>)

Note to Provender:
Answer to points you wrote would all be answered with a YES from those of us who left when Mac Brunson took control of our beloved church.

Note to Bro/Pastor Rod:
Yes, members at FBCJ know how to explode the tea pot when you don't agree with them - they don't do it with love and you quickly become a black sheep. Indeed these "godly men/women" are known to change their character and display instant emaotional anger, which then doesn't take them long to pass it down the fBCJ Inhouse "beauty shop gossip"

Question:
Do they drink beer at FBCJ? No witness to drinking beer but do know some of them sure like their wine - Ooop''s no sin if you don't get drunk!

Anonymous said...

Why does ANYONE remain at a church like it appears FBCJ has become??

June 14, 2010 8:45 AM

All kinds of reasons:
-social
-business contacts
-fear of leaving the familiar
-ignorance
-activities for kids
-notion they can somehow make a difference
-heritage (family has been there for generations)

Somehow all the above overrides convictions and character.

Vinny said...

Call me hardcore, but I don't think divorce is ever justifiable except in cases of adultery or obvious abuse/neglect (against the spouse or a family member). Even if you believe in "no-fault" divorce, those words from your wife's former teacher and mentor are perhaps the sickest, most depraved words I have heard in years from any person of faith.

I encourage people to protest the convention's support of Mac Brunson by adopting some subtle symbol when they go to church or any public place this summer - maybe a green rubber band worn on the wrist? Perhaps you could come up with a better symbol.

Johnny D. said...

"Are you a very sensitive individual? This is not that big a deal. People tell my wife in jest..."I don't see how you can stay with him?". WHATS THE BIG DEAL? That Sunday School lady was probably just kidding!!"

It ain't "in jest" anon. You just want to believe it is.

Anonymous said...

In jest? You gotta be kidding!!!!

Anonymous said...

WD-
I have held this under my hat for sometime and debated whether or not I should share it. I have decided to share it.

Back in late '04 or'05 Kieth Ferguson was the Min of Music at FBCD, when he suddenly and abruptly resigned. There was never an "official" reason other than he was going up McKinney to a church there.

The scuttlebutt around the church was that a woman in the church (FBCD) was stalking him, and so for his and his family's safety he had to move.

After reading and keeping up with your situation and treatment at FBCJAX, if this is indeed true, why didn't Dr. Brunson and the deacons here at FBCD get an ordinance against this woman banning her from the church property, so that Kieth could remain?

Or is there more to the story?

Antibaptissss said...

Oh so Junkster, (name is so appropriate) you are accusing Messiah and ALL the apostles including Paul of being a Judaizer? You speak of wanting to be like Him but you don't live or worship like Him. You whine about the 10 Commandments but only honor 9(or fewer). I really can't understand the hypocracy. Go ahead, eat your dead pig and worship on sun-god day. I challenge ALL to research the early church and see how they REALLY lived and worshipped, and it's ot what the church lady told you I assure you.

Don't say this ex-baptissss (and former FBC Jax member) didn't tell you.

I escaped the baptisss asylum and you can too.

Pass me another glass of Merlot bruuutha.

stt said...

...Give it up! You are right and they are wrong, you are both right, you are both wrong, or they are right and you are wrong. At this stage it no longer matters. Stop lashing out at those that are innocent bystanders. Judge people by what you see them do, not what you hear.

Junkster said...

Antibaptissss,
I'm no longer a Baptist, either, and don't seek to defend them. Nor am I a Jew, under the Law of Moses. I am free in Christ and live as a non-Jew under His grace, and have no desire to be bound by their laws that God never intended for me. But if it makes you happy or feel somehow closer to Christ to take that yoke upon yourself, go for it. Just don't try to drag the rest of us under that bondage. Most of us have had more than enough legalism as Baptists; we sure don't need any more.

Thy Peace said...

I am at a loss for words here. I first read this post yesterday but could not get myself to comment, for I felt too numb.

The comment by the Sunday school teacher reminded me of one Anonymous commenter on this blog, who would always bring in how Yvette is being negatively affected by all this blogging. (Lately that commenter is MIA. Praise God for that.)

I hope the Sunday school teacher reconsiders her views. She clearly did not have the best interests of Yvette or Tom's family at heart.

The remarkable thing in all this is Tom's family has remained intact will all these external pressures on their family. This is a cause for celebration.

This might be somewhat off topic, but relevant to some good baptist preachers. I just finished hearing Pastor Wade Burleson's last Sunday's sermon. Please listen to it. Compare this with what you hear elsewhere, where they want to build monuments for Christ in stone.

Anonymous said...

I bet they serve WHINE to your at the Communion table.

That mean ol' SS teacher hurt my wife's feelings....come on now!

We are big boys and girls and we can let people have their own opinions...can't we?

WHO REALLY CARES WHAT THE SS TEACHER SAID TO YOUR WIFE?

We need to be concerned about what God said...Get you some thick skin Brother and quit worrying about these little SS ladies and start worrying about yourself and your own issues.

What's next...You gonna get mad and leave the Church because the Preacher didn't hold your hand during hangnail surgery...a little sensitive...aren't we?

Junkster said...

Anon 10:40 PM,

I detected no whining or sensitivity in WD's post -- only a combination of bemusement and amusement that someone who is a supposed spiritual leader, a SS teacher, would give such biblically unsound and callous "advice" as this.

Besides, who really cares what you think?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon posting about 8:00 pm ref KFerg....I know of that minister, and conversed with him about 3 years ago, and received a much different description of events. For obvious reasons I can't put your post up, but would still love to converse with you via email regarding your comments.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 10:40

Do you think I care or my wife cares what her SS teacher said? My wife hasn't spoken with her since. No whining here, just informing.

Her comments to my wife were not light, off the cuff, remarks. They were genuine comments, something she believed and was giving counsel to my wife - and I don't give a flip what she says, and my wife brushed them off...but boy oh boy they give a glimpse into the thought processes of the firmly entrenched downtown.

Anonymous said...

This whole issue of people saying mean things to our wives....Have you ever been a Pastor's wife? Have you got any idea how cruel people can be to her?
I am sorry that your wife got treated this way..it was wrong!

Shouldn't we forgive not Blog?

Shouldn't we pray not spread rumors?

Shouldn't we overlook not dwell on the negative?

The Bible says that if we are mature, then we are not easily offended!

If the shoe fits....

Junkster said...

WD,
Don't you just love how people are critical of you because they feel you are being critical of others? It's almost as funny as it is stupid.

New BBC Open Forum said...

The Bible says that if we are mature, then we are not easily offended!

Anon 11:12 p.m.? I think your spouse has grounds to divorce you because (1) you're blogging anonymously and (2) sowing discord among the bloggers.

Troll on.

dee said...

Anonymous @11pm

I don't get what you are saying. I knew of a coverup regarding a sexual predator at a church. Those types of things are sooooo negative. I know, I should have whipped out my Bible and read only the passages on joy and never, ever dealt with the negative, right?

Sin is messy and painful and must always be dealt with. However, far too many people sit in the pews and shut their eyes. That is how the Nazis got away with their heinous crimes. The Lutheran church during WW2 didn't "blog" and only focused on the positive.I bet they were well dressed and smiled a lot. But, they had blood on their hands for their inaction.

Finally, the word "rumors" is a way of saying shut up about the truth." Rumors" is a way to insinuate that what is being said is not true. Well, Tom said the teacher said it. It is not a rumor. It happened to his wife.

If Sunday School teachers are saying that at FBC somebody better be talking about it and somebody better be stopping it. There are far too many people singing "kumbaya" and signing up for Danube cruises and not dealing with the painful messes in our churches.

Anonymous said...

SS teachers remarks were way out of line, don't care WHO she is. Why are you not supposed to take offense at the remarks? Does this mean that anyone connected with a church can say anything about a person, but said person is not to react or take offense. These people are not allowed to insult others with their "suggestions" and expect to get a pass on it because they think they are entitled to interfere in your life because they are "teachers". Of what I might ask? Do they pay any attention to the bible at all down there now?

Provender said...

This whole issue of people saying mean things to our wives....Have you ever been a Pastor's wife? Have you got any idea how cruel people can be to her?
I am sorry that your wife got treated this way..it was wrong!

Shouldn't we forgive not Blog?

Shouldn't we pray not spread rumors?

Shouldn't we overlook not dwell on the negative?

The Bible says that if we are mature, then we are not easily offended!

If the shoe fits....

June 14, 2010 11:12 PM

In defective churches, people can be cruel to pastors' wives and anyone else in the congregation. When these are happening, it's time to take a good, long look at the church and its leadership.

Anon. 11:12, your logic is faulty.
You list of things Tom should do instead of others has a problem. Forgiving and blogging are not mutually exclusive. If Tom loves his former church and the personalities in it, he will blog as hard as he can to save them from error and its consequences. There is nothing here to indicate Tom is not praying for his former church. I expect it's a daily thing with him, and he is pretty good about posting facts with supporting documents, not rumors. While it's good to overlook personal slights, behavior that can hurt others should never be overlooked or allowed to stand. This church has become a dangerous place, spiritually. Tom would be remiss if he overlooked the dangerous simply because it was negative. It's true that Tom is offended, but he is not easily offended. He was served trespass papers, had his private accounts broken into and was called a sociopath by a pastor in his local newspaper. I'd say the offense was not a slight one.

Anonymous said...

This whole issue of people saying mean things to our wives....Have you ever been a Pastor's wife? Have you got any idea how cruel people can be to her?
I am sorry that your wife got treated this way..it was wrong!

Shouldn't we forgive not Blog?

Shouldn't we pray not spread rumors?

Shouldn't we overlook not dwell on the negative?

The Bible says that if we are mature, then we are not easily offended!

If the shoe fits....

June 14, 2010 11:12 PM


Right out of the playbook. Ignore evil in the ekklesia because only being positive is not sin.

You know, these guys would have NO followers if people really studied on their own. But alas, they don't.

This one sounds a lot like Joel Osteen.

Anonymous said...

"We need to be concerned about what God said..."

Exactly! Which is why this woman should not be teaching the Word to anyone. She does not understand it or she would NEVER have said that.

Thanks for making the point so clearly.

Anonymous said...

No fellow Jax Members You SHOULD LEAVE your BRUNSON's Fellowship High and Dry. My LORD and SAVIOR told me clearly NEVER join an assembly in which the pastors distorts Malachi 3 to exploit his flock. The Didache would uphold this idea as well.

Julie Anne said...

Mighty Christian of them. Yea, this is old, I just couldn't NOT comment. I hang out with teens as their accompanist in choir and this is the kind of comment they'd say: unFLIPPINGreal!