"But please, please, please hear me. I'll make you a deal. All right? You tithe for the rest of this year to Gateway Church, and if you're not fully satisfied, I'll give you your money back."
-----------------------------------
There really is no end to how mega church pastors will abuse their congregations spiritually to extract as much money from them as they can. We've seen plenty of examples from Perry Noble, Mac Brunson, Steve Gaines, Ed Young, and even Robert Jeffress.-----------------------------------
Now I introduce to you Robert Morris, pastor of Gateway Church, a mega, multi-campus church in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area. He too, is using a false tithing doctrine to scare people into forking over more money to his church - but on May 21st he offered a money-back guarantee for those who do tithe for the rest of 2011 but end up not satisfied with the results at the end of the year (Click here and go to the 5/21/11 sermon to listen to Morris' entire message).
Robert preached two consecutive Sundays at Perry Noble's church May 15th and May 22nd on tithing and first-fruits giving. Robert teaches that you must give the FIRST 10% of your income (literally, the first check you write, the first withdraw after the pay deposit) in order for you to give an acceptable gift to God.
But on May 21st, Robert was preaching at his own church on tithing. And in that sermon he told his peeps that they MUST give 10% of their income to be blessed, and to in fact avoid calamity in their lives. He uses the same tactic Steve Gaines does at Belleuve Baptist Church - with a straight face he tells them that their money is all cursed of God if they don't tithe. How do they remove the curse? Easy, move the decimal on your paycheck one place to the left, and write a check in that amount to their church.
But what was unique about Robert's sermon on May 21st at his church, is he made a money-back satisfaction pledge to his people:
"But please, please, please hear me. I'll make you a deal. All right? You tithe for the rest of this year to Gateway Church, and if you're not fully satisfied, I'll give you your money back."
That is great. People of Gateway Church, take him up on that at the end of the year - but it is a pretty safe guarantee, since so few Christians actually do tithe.
But the interesting thing about his money-back guarantee is that it exposes the very weakness of his entire tithing doctrine and disproves it's premise. The premise of his demand for 10% of your money, is that you must give the first fruit, the first 10%, because it belongs to God, that it is not yours. But apparently you really are NOT giving it to God, you're giving it to Robert. Because if you were giving it to God, how could Robert say that HE (Robert) will give it back to you? I thought it was God's? How does Robert take God's money and give it back to someone? He misues the bible to make you think there are "curses" on you, your family, and your money if you don't exactly follow his interpretation of the bible regarding how you give your money. But if that is true, then wouldn't HE be under a curse for offering to give God's money BACK to someone that doesn't own it? No, because there are no curses, and HE KNOWS IT, and now we know he knows it with his get-your-money-back pledge.
You aren't giving it to God, you're giving it to the 501c(3) organization of Gateway Church, whose CEO is Robert Morris. But he wants you to think you are giving it to God, so that he can use the Bible to command that you give it to his 501c(3).
But then, like so many other mega church pastors are doing these days, he tries to tell the people that if they fail to tithe it might cause their marriages to fail, their kids to be lost, and their jobs and income to be in jeopardy. Like Mac Brunson and Steve Gaines, this man preaches that failure to tithe will cause you to have calamity befall you.
He says:
"The only reason I'm asking you to do this (tithe) is for your own good....I'm tired of hearing about families that are losing jobs and losing income and losing family and losing kids and losing marriages, because the devourer is devouring them. And he tells us very simply 'if you bring the tithe to the storehouse I (God) will rebuke the devourer for your sake.' It's a pretty good deal for 10%."
He may be tired of seeing his church members not blessed and suffering. But I'm tired of abusive megachurch pastors lying to their congregations, making them think that their hard times are because they do not tithe.
In Robert's scheme, no faith is required, really. Just fork over 10% to Robert's church, and you will be protected. This is what the mafia used to do to keep people in line in their neighborhoods - give the mafia their share and you'll be protected. It is raw scare tactics. It is a shameless con game to make people think that by giving money to Robert and his church, that they are paying off a holy mob boss and protecting their family. It is what the Roman Catholic Church did with indulgences in Luther's day.
Robert says the tithe will allow God to rebuke "the devourer". But really, do you know who is the devourer, Christian? It is these mega church pastors who can't stand to let you purpose in your heart, moved by the Holy Spirit, how much to give to your church. They feel it is their place to shame you, to lie to you, and to scare you into giving what they want you to give.
So Robert Morris, look into the mirror. Perhaps YOU are the devourer of your church members' lives.
87 comments:
Off Topic: the following anon comment was posted today back on the Tim Lee/Ergun Caner post from a few weeks ago:
"I'm aware that I'm a little late to the party, but given the remarks about Liberty, I'd like to take up for my school (sort of). Caner and his defenders are generally representative of the seminary, but the undergraduate Religion Department is another story. I have formed friendships with several professors in the undergrad religion department, and I can guarantee you that they, and from what they tell me others as well, wanted Caner to leave immediately, and weren't happy with him even before the story broke.
Yes, the school is messed up. But you have to keep in mind that a lot of professors have been there for a couple decades or more and haven't necessarily changed, even though the agenda of the university has. "
I recently confronted my (now former) pastor about the issue of legalism. Storehouse tithing was one of the points that I sought to highlight as false doctrine. Needless to say that the fact that I would dare hold him accountable to the Word was met with hostility. I did not get far.
It is fitting that in the visible, apostate, American church that the bondage of the Mosaic Law would be masqueraded as a means of blessing. People need to study the Pauline epistles, especially the book of Galatians, praying that the Holy Spirit of God will give understanding concerning the true liberty and freedom that is found in Christ. The Law brings death..... and legalism deludes people into thinking they are genuine Christians. No where does Paul speak favorably of using the Law as a means of following Christ, especially for Gentiles. The cultural attachment to the Law by the Jews is approched differently. However, Christ Jesus is the new and better Law giver, mediating a new and far superior covenant--we look to HIM not Moses, and we filter what Moses wrote through the lens of the New Covenant. A failure to do this leads, eventually, to some doctrinal error. Christians are in-lawed to Christ, sealed with the Spirit, and no longer enslaved to sin.
Watchdog is right expose these so-called Christian leaders. Many of the men behind the pulpit are not genuinely qualified according to the requirements of 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1. This ultimately is the sinful root cause, along with Christians neglecting their resposibilities as good soldiers and members of the Body of Christ, there are so many cases of spiritual abuse and injured sheep. Look only to Christ!
Jonathan
These pastors are always trying to help the Holy Spirit do his job. That's probably because, deep down, they know there's no such thing as the Holy Spirit. That's why so few Christians are moved by the Holy Spirit to do things like tithe.
I actually came across this same idea in a very small fundamentalist church. It was the first time I'd heard such a thing. The treasurer got up and made a similar announcement-"if you're not satisfied at the end of the year, you can ask for all of the money back." As if someone would actually do that. I can't imagine anybody taking them up on that and actually start tithing, then ask for it all back-unless they just had the guts to do it for the fun of it to mess with the church leadership.
It is as if Tetzel himself is selling indulgences in the "Protestand" arena. Not to avoid purgatory but to avoid hardship in life.
It really is a great gig. Think of it...no matter, if a spouse sues for divorce, it will be the fault of not giving enough...even if you gave a lot.
It cannot be the teaching that is false but your response to the teaching. You did not pray hard enough, give enough, go to church enough, etc.
There are a lot of "CINO"'s who really believe this.
The truth would kill them. Sanctification can look like death to the worldly. It rarely looks like worldly success.
"That's probably because, deep down, they know there's no such thing as the Holy Spirit. That's why so few Christians are moved by the Holy Spirit to do things like tithe."
The Holy Spirit does not move one to tithe because there is no tithe in the NC. The fact that as many people tithe as they are says a lot about biblical ignorance.
However, you cannot measure what Christians do for other Christians because the Holy Spirit led them to. Who can measure the believer who paid to fix the single mom's brakes on her car? Or the anonymous donor who slipped an envelope of money under the door of a strugging family.
Matthew 6 says we are not to tell of such things. Our left hand should not know what our right hand is doing.
In fact, Christendom's fancy buildings and weatlhy pastors are an indictment upon the Name of Christ.
I'm very appreciative of the FBC Jax Watchdog to keep us informed and updated on the activities of these mega churches and their messages of tithing rules for their church.
It appears they are all desperate for money from just from what they say to their congregation.
Thanks again, W/Dog
Wow. I just watched the video. Paying your tithe truly does sound like protection money. Pay this and bad things won't happen to you. So Godfather-like. So creepy.
Anon 11:02,
Thanks for responding to my comments. I like what you said. Christians that quietly try to meet needs have my respect.
It's the high-pressure salesmen stuff that gets me. And the obvious threats. It's like the preachers are making you an offer you can't refuse. If people who believe in God would just realize that God has nothing to do with these preachers. The preachers love to make out like they and God are one and the same. If people could only see that them saying that does not make it so. If there is a God, surely he's as disgusted as we are!
I believe in tihing. I am not a legalist with it, I do not push and prod my people to tithe. We have some people who are very poor and have a hard time making ends meet, and if they come to me wanting to give to the Lord's work through our church, I typically tell them then they should give what they can, but make sure they are taking care of their other obligations; as that is a testimony, as well.
My problem with Robert Morris is IF you are giving to the Lord then it is not his (Morris') money to give back (with his money back guarantee) It is God's!
How does he expalin that one?
Kyle
http://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/the-deeper-issues-in-giving/
Kyle - exactly my point - he has exposed that he really doesn't believe the premise of his tithing doctrine.
He speaks of curses, he speaks of how one must write the first check for God to accept the offering and negate the curse, he speaks of the 10% not belonging to the person but to God...but IF this all is true, how can Robert decide to give it BACK to the person who never owned it to begin with? No where in scripture is this "money back guarantee" described, so I have to think he himself would be cursed to give it back.
Baptists believe (supposedly) that we are saved by grace, through faith.
But just in case that's not all that is needed, we'd better keep all these other rules.
That way we've got it all covered.
Oh, our ever-shrinking dysfunctional denomination...
I think that anon 10:58's comparison to Tetzel and indulgences is valid. I intend to vigorously oppose storehouse tithing, by the grace of GOD, when given the opportunity, much in the same passionate way Luther did the sell of indulgences--not mincing words and offending the religious crowd. It is unavoidable as men become vicious over their golden calf traditions. I am convinced by the Scriptures, as many Christians in history have been, that it is no small error to teach and bind this non-Christian doctrine on the consciences of redeemed New Covenant believers--rather it crosses over into blasphemy by distorting the posture of GOD towards the sheep.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump
Gal 5:9 (ESV)
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:13-14 (ESV)
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:14 (ESV)
I am amazed at the spiritual blindness of these supposed learned men! There is no one for one parallel concerning the Old Covenant tithing system and all that it emphasized with the Levitical system etc., and New Covenant, grace giving, involving currency or anything else material. The driving force of obedience in the New economy is love, by the enablement of the indwelling Spirit ......not fear of a curse from GOD. Most of these "tithers," certainly when opposed, lack anything resembling love.... just like the Pharisees.
Keep exposing these men who love to work it out in their flesh so as to have something to boast in, Watchdog. I have suffered unjustly at the hands of self-willed leadership also, so I empathize with you, brother.
Jonathan
Not to worry, Robert's church is not SBC. It is one of the new "emergent" churches. But it is sad to see that the SBC megas are teaching the same doctrines as these emergent churches when it comes to finances.
One time I tithed and the next Tuesday I got a check from my insurance company that covered my entire tithe check.
Another time I tithed even though I couldn't pay my bills and someone sent me $500 dollars for my birthday the next week.
It works people...I promise you...it is like magic...
IT WORKS!!!!
You better believe it works.
Malachi teaches it..
Jesus teaches it....
Paul teaches it.....
God's shovel is bigger than ours.
You can't outgive God.
God doesn't need your money, You need to give your money.
This is not about money, it is about obedience.
I feel a breeze in the house right now...the windows must be open and the blessings are blowing in!
One of my favorite quotes by Robert Morris about tithing: he says he has told God, "God, why did you not put Malachi 3:10 in the New Testament? It would have made my job a lot easier"
Too funny. A mega church pastor telling God where the scripture should be.
He says it "missed the New Testament by only 25 verses".
Again, too funny.
These guys are really masters at their craft in convincing people that they must give 10% of their income to be blessed. They are modern day snakeoil salesman.
Let me tell you something...it is this nonsensical teaching by these modern snakeoil salesman that is doing the church in.
And think about these teachers: Noble, Robert Morris, Gaines, Brunson and Ed Young. What is there total audience per Sunday? I would say conservatively 75,000 people. That is the equivalenet of about 500 small churches. These guys are selling their snake oil on a large market and doing great harm to the body of Christ. It is sad.
Anonymous said...
You better believe it works.
Malachi teaches it..
Jesus teaches it....
Paul teaches it.....
God's shovel is bigger than ours.
You can't outgive God.
God doesn't need your money, You need to give your money.
This is not about money, it is about obedience.
I feel a breeze in the house right now...the windows must be open and the blessings are blowing in!
June 5, 2011 9:08 PM
I do not tithe because I want God's blessing. I tithe because that was I am told to do in the bible.
The problem is that preachers like this make it seem like that if you do not tithe, God will punish you with tragic events or with hold things from you.
Also, I never hear this kind of preaching from anyone other than those mega church pastors who need an constant flow of cash to pay those mega salaries.
Maybe these sermons would "stick" a little better and not be so ridiculed if the pastors preaching these sermons stopped taking huge salaries and started passing on some of that cash to those in need and I am talking about more than 5% or 10%. They ask us to give till it hurts, but does not seem like they are willing to do the same.
WD-
Just read your response to my post. I totally agree that this guy does not believe what he is teaching. If it is God's then it is not his to give back and you are right he would then be cursed for giving back as his people would be cursed for not giving at all. In fact, he really would be robbing God!
And thn he shows his complte ignorance by stating that Malachi 3:10 only misses the New Testament by 25 verses. Yeah, that and 400 years!
You can read my previous post (I'm not here to debate tithing) but this guy gives those of us who honestly want the best for our people a bad name and reputation.
Kyle
From what I have understood in researching tithing in the Old Testament, if it were to carry over at all...it is on the surplus not the staples of one's needs. Payheck Gross tithing is gross negligence.
From what I have understood in researching tithing in the Old Testament, if it were to carry over at all...it is on the surplus not the staples of one's needs. Paycheck Gross tithing is gross negligence.
It is a New Testament survival reality program, rooted in the fear all humans have, all humans have a presupposition of not wanting to rule In less something is in you, they are trying to capture the fear causing disruption in normal progress for normal humans, if they are not getting away with it they are falling behind the program and may lead to extreme measures, in good taste of course.
Typical TBN,Daystar,Inspiration network gibberish except I haven't heard any of them offer a money back guarantee.
I know plenty of people who have tithed or given above the tithe, who have succumbed to cancer, had loved ones pass away, lost jobs, their marriage, and more.
It is simply not a formula or guarantee.
Malachi taught it
Jesus fulfilled it
Paul never said one iota about it
And think about these teachers: Noble, Robert Morris, Gaines, Brunson and Ed Young. What is there total audience per Sunday? I would say conservatively 75,000 people. That is the equivalenet of about 500 small churches. These guys are selling their snake oil on a large market and doing great harm to the body of Christ. It is sad.
June 5, 2011 9:16 PM
There are the less obnoxious ones who are teaching the same thing but with more finesse.
I spoke with an elder of a mega that I know through business the other day and he admitted that money is tighter than it has ever been for them but if they layoff people, the money will dry up even faster. Why? It is all about the image they have created. The image is that their success in numbers is God's blessings and affirmation they are right. They have taught this for 20 years and the "blessings" of big, fancy and successful have flowed in.
They have put themselves into a catch 22 situation.Their answer is to launch more campaigns.
Many people actually believe these lies about what constitutes "spiritual" success. You see it here. in comments, all the time.
Malachi taught it
Jesus fulfilled it
Paul never said one iota about it
June 6, 2011 9:29 AM
Exactly. What is the saddest part of all of this is ignoring that Jesus fulfilled the law by His sacrfice. It is not enough for some people, they still want to live by the law. It makes them feel Holy.
Now, if they gave to another brother and sister who needs help, no one would know. They would not get the recognition as one who tithes by the powers that be. All they are doing is supporting a building and salaries.
AS for the CP, what is sent there has to pay for a large bureaucracy before any of it gets to the field.
Sending money directly to missionaries is now possible and a much better use of our money than to pay guys like Welch and Hemphill 6 figure salaries for their created jobs.
I gotta Dog Crap on this dude! We have been fortunate enough to be able to give what would be called a tithe and then some consistently over many years. I just got my lay off notice.
Several years ago, while channel surfing the "religious channels", I found Les Feldick....an OK rancher, Bible teacher, who has been teaching the Bible, verse by verse, for many years. He accepts no money for himself, has a small group of people who help with office work....and only uses money sent in for his air time. I have benefited greatly from his teaching. He stands in front of a blackboard with a small group of people at their desks. Back to the basics. His message is clear...study your Bible. If more people would get into The Word, there would not be as many deceived people sitting in the pews. We spend way too much time in churches trying to entertain...too much time in the pulpit telling stories and pontificating.....and not enough time on studying the Book.
I attended Ed Young's Fellowship Church for over 10 years, watching and marveling at how Ed and his family continued to be 'blessed' and how things just seemed to go right for that church. Then the private jet, the multi-million dollar houses, all the Neiman Marcus clothes, and the stable of high end luxury cars that he and his wife and all his kids drive.
All of that, on our 'tithe'. Pathetic. I don't go there anymore, and I am not alone in my abandonment. At a church that once had 2 full (4000+ ppl auditorium) services on Sat night and 3 on Sunday morn, can't even fill the downstairs in 1 Sat night service, and only fills the downstairs on 2 Sun morning services.
All Ed had to do was say these words: "I was wrong. Please forgive me."
Instead he said these words: "Just go ahead and fill out this card giving me your bank routing number and your acct number and we will take your tithe directly out of your account."
The arrogance is mind-numbing.
"Not to worry, Robert's church is not SBC. It is one of the new "emergent" churches. But it is sad to see that the SBC megas are teaching the same doctrines as these emergent churches when it comes to finances."
Wrong. Gateway is far from being an emergent church is not moving in that direction. One more thing that you are incorrect on but that's not surprising. Rarely have you been correct on most things.
Do you realize that you can disagree with someone's theology and doctrine without attacking them?
I believe I'm correct that Gateway is an "emergent church". Can you explain why they are not? I also believe I'm correct that they are not SBC.
Not attacking, but strongly pointing out a harmful, dangerous teaching that he has propagated through his church and also at Perry Noble's church.
Telling people they must give 10% to their church else their kids and marriages and incomes are in jeopardy is probably the most illogical, unbiblical, abusive, and self-serving heresies to come from a pulpit.
Don't tithe!
No one is forced to tithe!
No one has a gun held to their head
No one is threatened
No one is arrested
So....this is America...
Don't tithe, if you need your money that bad, keep it.
But my money goes to my storehouse.
AND I AM BLESSED!!!!!!
"But my money goes to my storehouse."
You have a storehouse? Where do you keep your sheep for slaughter on Passover? And what Temple do you use for it? Give me the name of your Levite Priest. I would like to meet him.
word verification: dense. How true.
"I do not tithe because I want God's blessing. I tithe because that was I am told to do in the bible."
You are also told not to eat pork, light a fire on the sabbath, or wear certain types of fabric.
These portions of the law (including tithing) were directed to a theocracy intended to point them toward Christ.
After Christ's sacrifice, a new covenant was instituted with Christians. 2 Corinthians 9:7 is the NT model for giving and contradicts the OT model.
"The problem is that preachers like this make it seem like that if you do not tithe, God will punish you with tragic events or with hold things from you."
If you were being consistent, you would apply this teaching as well. It is also a part of the OT law.
"No one is threatened"
Malachi 3:9
"No one is threatened"
Malachi 3:9
Jesus came so we did not have to fear, but that is coming out of the New Testament churches. This goes to show Jesus is not alive in churches, there exist a takeover to destroy your joy.
The money back guarantee will never be challenged by anyone. The church would never honor it because they'll claim some caveat that it wasn't off the gross income or that a check wasn't written each and every week. They'll make it nigh impossible to get a refund check.
Then again, it's that sort of integrity that I expect from our marquee pastors these days too.
Fear that is what the New Testment is all about, you must comply are else!
So where does faith fit in with all of this?
You know the thing that we are to live by, the thing through which we are saved.
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Gal 3:2-9 (ESV)
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Gal 4:21-31 (ESV)
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:1 (ESV)
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
Eph 2:11-22 (ESV)
Jonathan
Still waiting for the explanation on how the church is the storehouse. Everyone says it and tosses it around like they no what they are saying but never in five years of asking has anyone provided an explanation that the church has taken the place of the OT storehouse.
Wishihadknown,
The "storehouse" was an actual storage place that the Levites used to store food. ie., produce, livestock, etc.
The "church" is the called out people of GOD .......the Body of Christ.
There is no parallel in comparison.
Jonathan
Thanks, Jonathan, that's all I can find too. Sunday after Sunday I hear storehouse tithing, bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, etc. but try as I might I can find no basis for calling the church the storehouse.
Thanks for the scriptures too.
Off topic:
Jim Smyrl's Loyal Heart Ministry Twitter today says:
"Taking responsibility for your sin as a means of correcting behavior & mending relationships isn't repentance; its the enemy of repentance."
I thought owning up to our sin, asking for forgiveness, and professing Jesus to be the only mediator between God and man IS true repentance and WAS the way to mend our relationsihp with God? And I thought confessing our sin WAS the first step for correcting our behavior and the beginning of Sanctification? I mean, you have to admit you have a problem first, if you want to correct it, right?
This is a prime example of what is wrong with the FBCJax administration; Defiled religion and unwholesome theology.
This is a prime example of what is wrong with the FBCJax administration; Defiled religion and unwholesome theology.
June 6, 2011 9:48 PM
Amen 9:48
And may I remind you that Jim Smyrl;s Loyal Heart Ministry is a personal gig of his own - when he got the Phd he totally chandged his demeanor. The adminstration makes big bucks, the wives work, and they've given positions to their own kids. I have no respect for these leaders -
I tithe because God laid it on my heart to give. I do not tithe to recieve blessings or because Im scared of curses. I tithe because I love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, and I want to acknowledge where it all comes from. God blesses us tremendously every day because he loves us. I tithe because I love Him and want to support His work. Tithing has helped me become less selfish and wanting to do more. I started out at 10% but now give much more and cant wait for opportunities to give. It is truly amazing how God has changed my heart and given me the gift of giving. It may have started out as a duty but it has become a priviledge to give. I will not be asking for any money back. I pray over every check I write and ask God to multiply it and use it for His glory. No matter what you think about tithing, just give!!! and I promise you will be blessed. I have.
Another dynamic here is classism.
You have to understand that this church is in one of the wealthiest communities in the country: Southlake, TX.
Many of these people exalt their wealth as a measure of God's love toward them. They believe that if you aren't wealthy, well it's because God obviously loves them more than you.
Anytime you hear the word "blessing" spoken by religious rich people, it is always referring to monetary blessings.
My point about classism is that rich people anywhere really don't care if the average person improves his or her lifestyle.
They view you as serfs who need to feel honored for bowing down to them and giving them your money. As a nation, we felt honored to give our tax dollars to major corporations in the form of bailouts that were supposedely going to "help" the public by creating jobs. Well, that never happened, did it? But when next time comes around, I guarantee we'll feel just as "honored."
In this area of Texas in general, especially in the current economy, you also hear a lot about how "all of these lazy people just want a handout and they're not getting MY (God's?) money."
But these same rich people have no problem taking YOUR money.
Because, you know...God loves them more and they deserve it.
so what i hear this man saying in a nut shell (pardon the expression) is that the blood of Jesus Christ is not powerful enough to protect me from a curse perpetrated by the devil if i do not give this man my money!? i have heart this taught first hand! they must compare notes. I wonder if they all get a memo or something? This is why they need to be silenced . they make the cross of Christ an unfinished and powerless work!! They sell the name of Jesus to build their kingdom.. hell is hot and very scary!! i believe that this is a grief to the Holy Spiorit! If i am not mistaken the unforgivable sin!
I have heard people argue in the past that tithing is an Old Testament concept which doesn't apply in the New Covenant. I don't think that's fully accurate. There's no reason to believe that Christians in the 21st century have God's permission to give less than 10%. Lots of things changed from the Old to the New Covenants, but the bar never went LOWER.
On the contrary, whenever Jesus said "You have heard it said...but now I say to you," he always raised the bar. You heard it said you shouldn't murder, but now I'm going to raise the bar and say that you shouldn't even hate. You've heard it said that you shouldn't divorce, but now I'm going to tell you that you shouldn't even look at a woman with lust in your heart. You've heard it said that you should give 10%, but now I say to you...
What Biblical or commonsensical reason do we have to believe that Jesus would be satisfied with those who give less than 10%? What reason is there, apart from wanting the money for one's own self, to give less than 10%?
“Tithe” teachers and those who succumb to their teaching, flippantly toss out this "tithe is 10%" line. Sorry to burst bubbles (not really) but the OT tithes totaled 23% of the produce of the land and the flocks and herds. So if one were tithing in any meaningful biblical sense you would need to be writing checks for just over 23% of your paycheck. Let’s get real. This “tithe” teaching is relatively modern having become fashionable in American churches in only the latter half of the 19th century. It is unscriptural and offensive; not only to the integrity of scripture and believers, but to the Cross of Christ. If you are giving 10% of your income, that’s fine. It’s a personal decision, I hope, and between your conscience and God but please to aware giving 10% of your income is not "tithing" in any scriptural sense. This "tithe" teaching becomes a signicant problem when folks like Morris twist it into an moral obligation or compulsion and use scriptural invectives directed to people under the OT Law to bludgeon and intimidate Christians under the blessings of grace. They pervert scripture and damage the body of Christ. It is disgusting. Just one more thing. Thank you FBC Jax Watchdog for your diligence. Blessings.
A little context...Pastor Robert just moved from an average Southlake house (worth around $500K) to a more expensive spread in the area. I have been told worth well over $1M. He also owns a $800K house on Possum Kingdom Lake west of DFW equipped with high-end wakeboard boat and jet skis. He and his wife drive new, high-end autos (Porsche 911 for him and BMW 750 for her). Oh...Robert does drive just an average $70K Landcruiser as his everyday vehicle. No pretentious Lexus version for him. Other top folks at Gateway do pretty well also. Of course, the new Church facility in Southlake is off the charts. Recently bought a church in Friso, TX...another wealthy suburb in the DFW area. Puts some perspective on why tithing is so important at Gateway and churches like it. Leadership's opulent lifestyles would cease if the tithes dwindle...and this would truly be a curse...for them.
That explains why Robert Morris is always pushing members to "bring someone to church."
This church treats "thinking" members like low-order slaves and gives out more condemnation and curses than Satan can shake a stick at.
Gateway Church is is one to watch, Watchdog.
Listen to the sermon. Read the book (The Blessed Life). It is not a money principle. It is a happiness principle.
As explained, tithing is the only thing in the Bible on which God invites you to test him. This is the basis behind his “Money-Back Guarantee.” Skepticism is expected.
Based on the comments already posted, many probably pride themselves as being open-minded. Use that quality and look at the message. If you really want to test it, with an open mind (and heart) take him up on his challenge and try tithing. Try it to any church you wish to call home. You will be blessed (more fulfilled). There is no promise of more money. But you will be surprised on how your needs are met.
Tithing is not going to grant you salvation. Jesus can do that.
I am not a pastor or life-long Christian. I am not a wealth of scriptures (the sermon can do much better than I can on such things). When I got married in 1/04, I was a graduate assistant making about $830 net per week. I was not saved, but married a woman (unemployed student) with a Christian background. She taught me the concept of tithing and we did it from check one as a married couple. Like most, I feel like I do not have enough in my savings to be satisfied. However, we have never worried about having enough to meet our needs. I attribute that entirely to God and his tithing promise.
Churches and pastors will have to account to what they did with the money they received. Tithe and you will be blessed.
Listen to the sermon. Read the book (The Blessed Life). It is not a money principle. It is a happiness principle.
As explained, tithing is the only thing in the Bible on which God invites you to test him. This is the basis behind his “Money-Back Guarantee.” Skepticism is expected.
Based on the comments already posted, many probably pride themselves as being open-minded. Use that quality and look at the message. If you really want to test it, with an open mind (and heart) take him up on his challenge and try tithing. Try it to any church you wish to call home. You will be blessed (more fulfilled). There is no promise of more money. But you will be surprised on how your needs are met.
Tithing is not going to grant you salvation. Jesus can do that.
I am not a pastor or life-long Christian. I am not a wealth of scriptures (the sermon can do much better than I can on such things). When I got married in 1/04, I was a graduate assistant making about $830 net per month I was not saved, but married a woman (unemployed student) with a Christian background. She taught me the concept of tithing and we did it from check one as a married couple. Like most, I feel like I do not have enough in my savings to be satisfied. However, we have never worried about having enough to meet our needs. I attribute that entirely to God and his tithing promise.
Churches and pastors will have to account to what they did with the money they received. Tithe and you will be blessed.
I just happened across your website. As a member of this church I am offended by your blatant misuse and taking the teachings of Ps. Morris out of context.
The sum total of his teaching on giving is not giving to get the blessings, but giving out of your relationship and love for God - allowing Him to direct your giving through His Word and your relationship with him.
Honestly - all the scare tactics are from people like you - not Ps. Robert. Gateway has a ministry for that, too. FREEDOM.
My prayer for those who would stir up discord among the brethren because they are convinced they are the only right way to interpret Scripture is their way... It has always struck me as odd that a person who advocates that a teacher is "unbiblical" would take it to the blog post and broadcast it to the world wide web rather than taking a Matthew 18 approach to addressing the offense. I can't judge your heart, but out of the mouth the heart speaks. And so I pray that you would realize that you are not promoting unity in the body or providing a service to the "Church" by lamenting your disagreement in public without giving Ps. Robert Morris the opportunity to respond. The first commendation is to go privately and confront the offense. How is your response here Biblical?
Proverbs 6:12-19 (NKJV)
12 A worthless person, a wicked man, Walks with a perverse mouth;
13 He winks with his eyes, He shuffles his feet, He points with his fingers;
14 Perversity is in his heart, He devises evil continually, He sows discord.
15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly; Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
Nice.
Just one question.
Could someone, please, tell me what the letters "Ps" in front of Robert's name stand for? I've wondered for so long.
I am a member of Gateway Church. Have been for around 6 years. I have been on staff in a part time capacity for about 5 years. I do not make a lot. I am a college student paying my way. I will be the first to admit that tithing has been a struggle for me. But I will say that what Pastor, which is what Ps stands for, Robert believes everything that he says. And he applies it to. The Blessed Life is not about money. Knowing Pastor Robert, I can say securely that he does not care about money. Did you know that all of the proceeds from the Blessed Life book go to the church? Not one cent goes to him. That was set up from the beginning, his "tithe" to God. You may not agree with Gateway's teachings on tithing, but I can say this, we never pass the plate. The offering boxes are located on the back walls. Always have been. And Gateway is known as one of the most giving churches. People give out of a love for God. And, being on the inside, I get to see the blessings that God is heaping upon His people day in and day out. Now, I realize that this post will most likely be attacked, disregarded as indoctrinated hogwash and other things. And frankly, I don't care. But, please do your homework on the ministry taking place at Gateway before you attack the character of its pastor. And just fyi, on the money back offer, Robert is talking about being willing to give his own money to those who are dissatisfied.
My psychologist recommended I attend Kairos at Gateway Church to experience deep healing that I was unable to find on my own, or with her. Those two days changed my life. Besides healing from childhood wounds, one big take-away was that we are put on earth for God's pleasure, and we are His strategy in this world, led by His Spirit. I cannot say enough good things about Kairos and Gateway Church.
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work" 2 Cor 9:7
My question is WHY CAN'T ROBERT JUST TEACH FROM THE ABUNDANCE OF NT SCRIPTURES ON GIVING!!!!!????!!! Why are scriptures like 2 Cor 9:7 not good enough for him. Why must he go back to Malachi and the Law of Moses!!!!! Why!
The reality is because people will not give 10% and he wants 10%. He wants it so bad that he will put you under an old Covenant to make it happen. The funny part is that he doesn't even understand the tithe. Read Dt 14. The tithe was a 7 year cycle and every third and sixth year the tithe went primarily to the poor and on the 7th year there was no tithe because the land rested. Also the people ate their own tithe and gave the rest to the levites and poor. Also, only those with land and cattle tithed. All of the other people did not. Also when the quote "tithes and offerings" from Malachi - offerings means the sin offer, peace offering, wave offering and all of the other offerings and have nothing to do with money.
In fact the law of tithing is so complex and sparsely documented in the OT that most theolgians disagree on the details of it. Read any major commentary on it and you'll find the same. However fortunately now we have a "better covenant, which was established upon better promises" Heb 8:6
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Gal 5:14
So yes, our new covenant has commandments, but they are simple and written in our hearts and John summed them up here :
"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
The Law of Moses is GONE so stop tithing. Give 9% or 11%, but I suggest you give dynamically by faith as you are led by the Spirit. Give by FAITH!
The "Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster". Gal 3:24
So we to not pay a tithe or give an compulsoary amount!!! Abraham didn't! neither did anyone before the Law of Moses was delivered from mount Sanai! Only one time did Abraham give 10% of not his own wealth, but the wealth of the spoil of a battle he won. And he did this to show that the priesthood we are in now is better then the levitical one.
Paul told the church not to tithe by establishing a new way here :
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work" 2 Cor 9:7
A couple of items I'd like to add. First off - I tithe 10% of my income to my church. It is probably not the first bill that goes out, but I have it scheduled at the same time each month. I feel it is the right thing to do, yet it actually took me a long time to get the guts up to do it. Then when I did my taxes (Turbo Tax) and saw how dramatically LESS giving I showed compared to the average deduction taken in my tax bracket, that helped to push me to give.
Not that the point of your observations are lost on me, but just as I approach any preacher asking for money with caution – I would caution you and your audience to refrain from gross overgeneralizations, of which I’ve seen plenty in these comments.
On Robert Morris/Gateway - Morris is different. Guys - look past the NORMAL prejudice & stigma associated with mega-churches and their pastors and do some research on the target of your criticism. The Morris’ testimony gives them license to encourage their flock to give…and they encourage them to give beyond the tithe. Their giving has caused them to be blessed. This couple has given away several houses over the years; leaving themselves without one and believing God for blessing. Additionally they’ve given many, many, many cars away; not because they are rich – because they believe in giving – subsequently they’ve been blessed. This is the principle on which the church was founded.
Is there any mega-church or mega-church pastor not the recipient of your wrath? I’m curious. Don’t get me wrong – I appreciate what you are doing because there truly are so many slime-balls out there taking advantage of people’s emotions to get rich and they need to be exposed. But is anyone looking at the good some of these ‘mega-churches’ are doing with all of that money? Gateway, for instance, provides countless services, education, etc. for not only members, but the general public.
Finally – on the topic of Robert Morris giving back the ‘tithe’ to someone who has tithed for a year, yet not experienced the benefit thereof. Where in the content was the assertion derived that the pastor is ‘taking God’s tithe’ and returning it to the congregant? What he says is that he will return the money the person tithed – would Pastor Morris not have enough money to cover the amount tithed? Guys – you lose credibility when you practice what so many preachers do – cherry picking comments from context in order to further self-interests. Wouldn’t you agree that is being done here? Robert Morris is not asserting that he is God, on a level with God, owns the tithe, nor do his comments substantiate the claims that the pastor's ‘true’ thought process indicates he actually believes that member tithes are for him…come on, get real. If he really were dishonest he would certainly have been very successful doing it – and not likely to make such a slip-up. Keep up the watch – but stay factual, not just speculative - ok? Please.
Derik D - You sound like a liberal calling into a republican radio talk show. You present no facts or theological basis for your point of view. You are just upset because you disagree and express that emotionally.
Paul would rather die then preach like Robert Morris. He said "I would rather die, than that any man should make my glorying void....What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel" 1 Cor 9:15
Here is what Martin Luther had to say on the subject :
"But the other commandments of Moses, which are not [implanted in all men] by nature, the Gentiles do not hold. Nor do these pertain to the Gentiles, such as the TITHE and others" - Martin Luther
In the protestant reformation we witness countless martyrs who were burned at the stake and killed for the purpose of freeing us from mandatory preformance in paying money, church attendance, or any other compulsorary act in order to obtain favor with God and receive salvation which only comes by "faith alone". The blood of Jesus obtained all the favor we could ever get with God. God is not waiting to open the windows of heaven on us. He is not with holding financial blessing from His son's until we start tithing. "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us" 2 Cor 1:20. Paul said if you circumsize yourself to obtain favor with God you have falled from Grace (that's sort of like losing your salvation....scary). And I say to you that if you tithe to obtain favor with God then you have fallen from Grace. It's a slap in the face to Jesus who already purchased your freedom. "Give as you purpose in your heart, not of nessecity" 1 Cor 9:7
BTW, here is a conversation I had with the pastor of Upper Room on the subject of tithing.....it didn't go so well. He later slammed the anonymous emails he got from the pulpit as being cowardly because it was anonymous. I just didn't want him to treat me differently after the conversation :(
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17kkEzEFGHy2LVFAC5KbX9DMsZ9SMM7kpyHu4PeXF7Nc/edit
One thing about Pastor Robert that you need to know. If you read his book FBC Jax watchdog and Jim Bob you probably would. He has given away all of his savings, investments, houses, and hundreds of cars. God is going to bless people who are givers. Every time God has told me and my wife to give he has blessed us greatly. For example my wife and I were both had full scholarship through school at public schools. Also the other leaders at the church have given all their possessions away multiple times. Being a Christian is about loving people and loving God and Robert is a great example of caring about people.
Jacob - No one here is arguing the benifits of giving. That is not even a discussion on the table here. Obviously it is great to give. Why do you guys keep arguing that. You are arguing with the wall. Nobody disagrees!!!
The discussion at hand is one about when Robert says you HAVE to give to not get sick, fall into poverty or have something bad happen in your life. That is the message of the Mosaic OT tithe....if you don't do it you are under a curse. Christ redeemed us from the curse, not the tithe!!! God "hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ". All of God's blessings were given to Abraham and to his Seed by promise and they are received by faith and not by a work of paying a tithe or cirumcision or any other thing. There is no more law, hence no more curse or devourer, because the blessing of Abraham which is every good thing you can imagine is now recevied by "faith alone". Read Galations 3 - "Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. That the BLESSING OF ABRAHAM might come on the Gentiles THROUGH Jesus Christ [not tithing]; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith". God will not rebuke the devourer anymore as Robert promises if you tithe. That was the old covenant based on old promises. But now we have a "better covenant, which was established upon better promises" Heb 8:6
So when people come to Gateway looking for freedom from defeat in life, Robert will point them not to the cross, the blood, the blessing of God's promise which is by faith in Christ; instead Robert will point them to the LAW OF MOSES. He says in the video you MUST pay your tithe for your kids to not be sick or die early. And don't say tithe was before law, because so was circumcision. If you try to take your "works" + "the blood of Jesus" to the throne of Grace to obtain favor and blessing from God, then you "have fallen from Grace".
You see, its justification that gives you access to God's blessings. It's all a matter of justification. Once you are justified in the sight of God, all things He has are now available to you. You become his son and a part of his family, like the father said to his son in Luke 15:31 "all that I have is thine". To try to do anything other then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to obtain favor and blessing from God is an afront to Christ. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified" Gal 2:16
How are the sick healed? "The prayer of faith will heal the sick" James 5:15
How does God supply our finacial need? "my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus" Phil 4:19
What is God's plan for protecting Christians from bad things?
"these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name...They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" Mk 16:17
Wow, nothing about tithe there!!! Preach a mandatory tithe to obtain favor from God is heresey and it is death. "Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone" 2 Cor 3:7
It is the enemy :
"by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" Eph 2:15
And it has been nailed to the cross : "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" Col 2:14
http://gatewaypeople.com/sermons
Watch the series "Overwhelmed by Grace."
I have read most of the comments. Not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water, I agree that giving to other people in need is part of a Christians ministry. BUT, when I heard Pastor Morris state on his television broadcast that he taught tithing so that his congregation would be delivered from the "curse" I questioned his choice of words or maybe even motives. Jesus Christ's death on the cross delivered all believers from every curse, period.
tithing is not just a mosaic law thing, it is not just an old testament thing. the first tithes took place hundreds of years before the law and Jesus mentions the tithe in Matthew 23...dont use this as an excuse not to tithe. there is no way to get to the level of "giving" if you dont tithe in the first place. the bible says BRING the tithe to the storehouse. we need to stop trying to seperate the new from the old testaments it is ONE book. Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law not destroy it so how do we try to take the right to destroy it if Jesus didnt? First fruits and first borns is a very powerful and important piece of scripture. Lets not argue scripture but embrace it. love you all.
Here is the problem I have with Mega-churches. A church to me in an embodiment of God. You go to church to be part of a family. I went to this church once or twice just to take a look. I grew up in the "barn churches" in the 70s where you maybe had 50-100 people on a good sunday. The reason for the church really was not only for prayer and worship but you went to be part of a bigger family and community. If a family was in need sitting in the back row, you most likely knew about it or heard about it and you really got to know that family, for the good or bad. And everyone came together when that family needed help or that father or mother lost a son or daughter in a war. In this church or churches like these, I just don't see that embodiment. You can be sitting in a row and have not a clue that someone 2 miles down in another row is suffering or has a need. To me its just sad that its so impartial of a place to go to when there is that many people.
Steve, tithing IS a mosaic law thing. The only two occurances of tithing before the mosaic law was Abraham’s one time tithe of not his own wealth, but the spoil of a battle. The only other time was when Jacob also out of his free will gave a tithe one time as a thank you to God. The Mosaic law required Jews to tithe, keep feasts, Sabbaths, sacrificial offerings, food laws and so much more. You and many other pastors tell us that these feasts, Sabbaths, animal sacrifices and food preparation laws are done away with, yet you tell us the tithing law is still in full force to obtain an “open heaven” from God. Yes, Jesus did not destroy the law, but he did fulfill and replaced the Mosaic covenant with a “better covenant, established on better promises” Heb 8:6. We no longer have to follow the letter of the law because we have “a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” 2 Cor 3:6. Paster Steve, the law has been nailed to the cross and been done away with because Jesus “having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” We are now dead to the law and we serve Christ as Paul said, “you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another” Rom 7:4 We now serve Christ in the Spirit instead of following ordinances in the law such as tithing. “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” Gal 3:24.
What more proof need anybody other then those scriptures to know that we are now under a new covenant with better promises and not serving the letter of the law, but a “new and living way” Heb 10:20 in Christ. Always when I present such scripture to a person such as you they back down and say, “well, tithing is just a principle”. But Jesus, Peter, James, John, or Paul never once told the church to tithe. In matthew 23 Jesus said to the Jews who were still under the law that they should tithe, but that’s because the law had not been nailed to the cross yet and the Spirit and new living way had not been paved through the flesh of Christ.
If what I have already written did not already settle all dispute for you then this should. When the church was contemplating what part of the law of Moses to keep such as Circumcision, Feasts and Tithing, they wrote to Peter, James and John in Jeruselam and this is how they responded : “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: … For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. “ Acts 20:28
And then finally we are told how to give to the local church in 2 Cor 9:7 “So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.”. Now that sounds like our new covenant doesn’t it? So lets preach that!
Lastly I find it impossible to give in a church where the leadership demands that we tithe in order to find Grace and favor with God (an open heaven). This is because if you attempt to use anything other then faith in the cross to get God to move on your behalf you will actually shut heaven. “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” Gal 5:4 If you go to the throne of grace with any work other then the work of faith in the blood of the cross then you become guilty of the whole law.
As a person who has attended Gateway church, I can say that they are very concerned with how much their members give - so much that if a person applies for a job or even for a position of volunteer leadership, they check their giving records. If they aren't giving "enough" they are turned down. Also if a person is employed and their giving isn't up to their standards, it is a reason for termination. They have even called members in to ask them why they haven't keep up with their volunteer pledges to the building campaign. Robert Morris and the leadership of this church are more concerned about how much people give to Gateway than they are about how well the people are doing in their personal lives.
These comments seemed to be filled with anger and bitterness. I understand because if someone is preaching heresy that is a very troubling thing.
But as I read, I also picked up on a lot of arguments that leave out the other side. There needs to be some reconciling of the doctrines here.
When it comes to tithing, and whether or not that is "Old Covenant" or "Law" and not a part of the "New Covenant"...here are a few thoughts I didn’t see.
Under the Law, tithing was a practice...but it was not a part of salvation. Never has been. The purpose of tithing was two-fold: Obedience to God, and provision for the House of God. It has been said it is no longer an obedience issue, because we are under NC. I'm not sure the NC has been described properly on most of these posts...I'll cover that briefly in a moment. But even if we determine it to NOT be a matter of obedience...it is still the only way given in scripture to provide for the House of God. And I didn’t read any solution to that.
In Nehemiah 13, you see that once the tithes were no longer brought in, all of the workers in the temple were forced to go back to their homes and fields. This was a very negative thing...and actually played a big part in the Jews being led astray from God again. They weren't being fed and encouraged regularly to serve God, because the workers were all gone, and they weren't giving anymore so God was out of sight & mind.
The interesting thing that I see when people get all heated up about OC vs NC is that the NC isn't easier...it's harder. Living under Grace is much harder than living under Law. Are you kidding...Murder is wrong, or getting angry is wrong??? Committing adultery is wrong, or lusting in your heart is wrong??? It is not even close. Jesus took it to such another level...so there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, because when God measures sin, He always can go another level deeper that we could never meet up to.
I am glad we are under Grace, because Jesus did the work. But not, I follow Him, not me. And this is where I will wrap up...
When it comes to the New Covenant...Jesus made it very simple. You really don't have to follow all of these rules...making sure that you give me a day a week, or perform all these sacrifices, celebrate all the festivals, and why not, we'll even throw in the tithe. You don't even have to give me 10% anymore. Here is ALL YOU HAVE TO DO...give Me EVERYTHING. Lay your life down...the same that you have seen Me do. And do it everyday. So instead of giving me 10%...all of your money is mine. But not just your money...everything. If you don't take up your cross daily, you're not worthy of following Me. Paul said, we are "Living Sacrifices". We no longer sacrifice animals, now we sacrifice our very selves.
And in the New Covenant Church, people are not shown tithing, they are shown selling everything they own and giving it to the others in the Church.
Part of me wonders why I took the time to respond to this. I feel as if there are a lot of angry people. Why you would attack someone like a Robert Morris so vehemently just seems contrary to the Gospel, and counter-productive.
Maybe he emphasized money too much, maybe he doesn't. He'll answer to God. But when the answers are so angry and heated, all it does is stir up anger in others toward another person (Robert Morris) which is NOT a part of the New Covenant that was so loudly shouted in nearly every post. Under the NC, Jesus said there are 2 Commandments that are greater than all of them...Love God, and Love People. I challenge you to pray for the mega Church Pastors, and to pray for the small Church Pastors too. Jesus prayed for unity...and my prayer is: "Father God, please forgive me when I choose to judge harshly and fail to pray, forgive me when I choose to let my own feelings fly, while failing to truly love others. Help my love for others be a mirror reflection of Your love for people."
PD
Hello PD,
You stated that tithing "is still the only way given in scripture to provide for the House of God. And I didn’t read any solution to that."
Paul started numerous gentile churches in every corner of the world during that time. He was the head of the gentile church and he very clearly in numerous scriptures directed exactly how the church bishops, deacons and elders should be supported. Why don't you know those scriptures? You seem like an intellgent individual. Good communicators such as yourself and so many other educated people like you who push tithing seem to be oblivious to the great wealth of scriptures in the NC epistles on how to give. One of the most outstanding of those scriptures has been posted numerous times in this very blog :
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work" 2 Cor 9:7
The problem with these scriptures and preaching the pure gospel of Grace for most pastors is it does not compel their congregations to give nearly as much as if they put them under the law and use lowly fear tactics like Robert does to scare their ignorant congrations into paying 10% of their gross income. So in short, the Old Covenant compulsurory teaching which was designed for servants works far better for Robert then teaching a new Covenant Grace designed and paid for by the blood of Christ for sons of God.
The reality is, we now serve God through the Spirit of Grace in Love and Faith and not through a code writtin on stone and pages and pages of ordinance. The have been nailed to the cross and we have been raised up into heavenly places to serve God in a new and living way!
You say we owe God more then 10% now and that we owe Him everything. You point is???....I still pray and seek God on how much to give to my local church, the poor, widows, charities and such and for me personally I have had times where I was led to give 5%, 2% or nothing for a period of time.
Do you know that the jews ate their own tithe when the brought it to Jeruselem three times a year and gave the left overs to the levites? Did you know that the every third year the tithe went strictly to the poor? Did you know that the tithe was only on their crops and animals but they didn't tithe on other increases such as the clothing, home building, and the countless other trades and services they traded? So the tithe was not even close to 10% of their annual income. Not even close! Many people didn't even have crops or animals to tithe off of. Paul was simply a tent maker. These people just gave a temple tax as they purposed in their heart.
Anyway, this is a rediculous argument. Paul was so clear that we are to give to the elders and support those who feed us the Word, but he never said how much to give other then what you will in your heart. But for guys like Robert, they don't have enough faith in Gospel that Paul preached to fund their church. So they preach from the law of Moses and threaten sickness and poverty (the curse of the law) if you do not obey it. It's heresy. Am I bitter? I would like to think it's righteous indignation. God will judge.
Hello PD,
You stated that tithing "is still the only way given in scripture to provide for the House of God. And I didn’t read any solution to that."
Paul started numerous gentile churches in every corner of the world during that time. He was the head of the gentile church and he very clearly in numerous scriptures directed exactly how the church bishops, deacons and elders should be supported. Why don't you know those scriptures? You seem like an intellgent individual. Good communicators such as yourself and so many other educated people like you who push tithing seem to be oblivious to the great wealth of scriptures in the NC epistles on how to give. One of the most outstanding of those scriptures has been posted numerous times in this very blog :
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work" 2 Cor 9:7
The problem with these scriptures and preaching the pure gospel of Grace for most pastors is it does not compel their congregations to give nearly as much as if they put them under the law and use lowly fear tactics like Robert does to scare their ignorant congrations into paying 10% of their gross income. So in short, the Old Covenant compulsurory teaching which was designed for servants works far better for Robert then teaching a new Covenant Grace designed and paid for by the blood of Christ for sons of God.
The reality is, we now serve God through the Spirit of Grace in Love and Faith and not through a code writtin on stone and pages and pages of ordinance. The have been nailed to the cross and we have been raised up into heavenly places to serve God in a new and living way!
You say we owe God more then 10% now and that we owe Him everything. You point is???....I still pray and seek God on how much to give to my local church, the poor, widows, charities and such and for me personally I have had times where I was led to give 5%, 2% or nothing for a period of time.
Do you know that the jews ate their own tithe when the brought it to Jeruselem three times a year and gave the left overs to the levites? Did you know that the every third year the tithe went strictly to the poor? Did you know that the tithe was only on their crops and animals but they didn't tithe on other increases such as the clothing, home building, and the countless other trades and services they traded? So the tithe was not even close to 10% of their annual income. Not even close! Many people didn't even have crops or animals to tithe off of. Paul was simply a tent maker. These people just gave a temple tax as they purposed in their heart.
Anyway, this is a rediculous argument. Paul was so clear that we are to give to the elders and support those who feed us the Word, but he never said how much to give other then what you will in your heart. But for guys like Robert, they don't have enough faith in Gospel that Paul preached to fund their church. So they preach from the law of Moses and threaten sickness and poverty (the curse of the law) if you do not obey it. It's heresy. Am I bitter? I would like to think it's righteous indignation. God will judge.
Hello PD,
You stated that tithing "is still the only way given in scripture to provide for the House of God. And I didn’t read any solution to that."
Paul started numerous gentile churches in every corner of the world during that time. He was the head of the gentile church and he very clearly in numerous scriptures directed exactly how the church bishops, deacons and elders should be supported. Why don't you know those scriptures? You seem like an intellgent individual. Good communicators such as yourself and so many other educated people like you who push tithing seem to be oblivious to the great wealth of scriptures in the NC epistles on how to give. One of the most outstanding of those scriptures has been posted numerous times in this very blog :
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work" 2 Cor 9:7
The problem with these scriptures and preaching the pure gospel of Grace for most pastors is it does not compel their congregations to give nearly as much as if they put them under the law and use lowly fear tactics like Robert does to scare their ignorant congrations into paying 10% of their gross income. So in short, the Old Covenant compulsurory teaching which was designed for servants works far better for Robert then teaching a new Covenant Grace designed and paid for by the blood of Christ for sons of God.
The reality is, we now serve God through the Spirit of Grace in Love and Faith and not through a code writtin on stone and pages and pages of ordinance. The have been nailed to the cross and we have been raised up into heavenly places to serve God in a new and living way!
You say we owe God more then 10% now and that we owe Him everything. You point is???....I still pray and seek God on how much to give to my local church, the poor, widows, charities and such and for me personally I have had times where I was led to give 5%, 2% or nothing for a period of time.
Do you know that the jews ate their own tithe when the brought it to Jeruselem three times a year and gave the left overs to the levites? Did you know that the every third year the tithe went strictly to the poor? Did you know that the tithe was only on their crops and animals but they didn't tithe on other increases such as the clothing, home building, and the countless other trades and services they traded? So the tithe was not even close to 10% of their annual income. Not even close! Many people didn't even have crops or animals to tithe off of. Paul was simply a tent maker. These people just gave a temple tax as they purposed in their heart.
Anyway, this is a rediculous argument. Paul was so clear that we are to give to the elders and support those who feed us the Word, but he never said how much to give other then what you will in your heart. But for guys like Robert, they don't have enough faith in Gospel that Paul preached to fund their church. So they preach from the law of Moses and threaten sickness and poverty (the curse of the law) if you do not obey it. It's heresy. Am I bitter? I would like to think it's righteous indignation. God will judge.
Hello PD,
You stated that tithing "is still the only way given in scripture to provide for the House of God. And I didn’t read any solution to that."
Paul started numerous gentile churches in every corner of the world during that time. He was the head of the gentile church and he very clearly in numerous scriptures directed exactly how the church bishops, deacons and elders should be supported. Why don't you know those scriptures? You seem like an intellgent individual. Good communicators such as yourself and so many other educated people like you who push tithing seem to be oblivious to the great wealth of scriptures in the NC epistles on how to give. One of the most outstanding of those scriptures has been posted numerous times in this very blog :
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work" 2 Cor 9:7
The problem with these scriptures and preaching the pure gospel of Grace for most pastors is it does not compel their congregations to give nearly as much as if they put them under the law and use lowly fear tactics like Robert does to scare their ignorant congrations into paying 10% of their gross income. So in short, the Old Covenant compulsurory teaching which was designed for servants works far better for Robert then teaching a new Covenant Grace designed and paid for by the blood of Christ for sons of God.
The reality is, we now serve God through the Spirit of Grace in Love and Faith and not through a code writtin on stone and pages and pages of ordinance. The have been nailed to the cross and we have been raised up into heavenly places to serve God in a new and living way!
You say we owe God more then 10% now and that we owe Him everything. You point is???....I still pray and seek God on how much to give to my local church, the poor, widows, charities and such and for me personally I have had times where I was led to give 5%, 2% or nothing for a period of time.
Do you know that the jews ate their own tithe when the brought it to Jeruselem three times a year and gave the left overs to the levites? Did you know that the every third year the tithe went strictly to the poor? Did you know that the tithe was only on their crops and animals but they didn't tithe on other increases such as the clothing, home building, and the countless other trades and services they traded? So the tithe was not even close to 10% of their annual income. Not even close! Many people didn't even have crops or animals to tithe off of. Paul was simply a tent maker. These people just gave a temple tax as they purposed in their heart.
Anyway, this is a rediculous argument. Paul was so clear that we are to give to the elders and support those who feed us the Word, but he never said how much to give other then what you will in your heart. But for guys like Robert, they don't have enough faith in Gospel that Paul preached to fund their church. So they preach from the law of Moses and threaten sickness and poverty (the curse of the law) if you do not obey it. It's heresy. Am I bitter? I would like to think it's righteous indignation. God knows.
Hi,In response to any earlier post I would like to say that the Holy Spirit does exist and lives in each believer.I would think that it will never be fully known until eternity,like prayer,what good has been wrought by the dear Holy Spirit in believer's lives.The Holy Spirit not only in dwells each believer but also searches the depths of God.You can only be a child of God by knowing Jesus Christ as your own personal Saviour and having the Holy Spirit within you to be your helper and guide.Salvation is only by Jesus Christ as there is no other name in heaven and earth by which men(or women)can be saved as the Scriptures tell us.
David,UK.
I too have had a beef with this fear motivation tactic of being a cheerful giver. I looked into Deut. 14 to read FOR MYSELF what the tithe is according to God. My jaw fell open. It is NOTHING like what anyone says it is. I suggest you all go read it. You will be blessed! NOT cursed! The tithe is NOT, nor has it EVER been an offering of money to the Priests.
The funny thing is that we are either FREE to give as Jesus said (Mat 17:26)....or we are required to Give as the LAW demands.....It cannot be both
I know who I believe ...you chose if you prefer to believe a liar and a thief (Rev 2:2. Acts 20:29)
Gal 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. NKJV
Chris
The funny thing is that we are either FREE to give as Jesus said (Mat 17:26)....or we are required to Give as the LAW demands.....It cannot be both
I know who I believe ...you chose if you prefer to believe a liar and a thief (Rev 2:2. Acts 20:29)
Gal 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. NKJV
Chris
Folks, I think one critical element is missing here, on most everyone's comments. Yes, the Bible is very clear on this topic. But what I have noticed a lack of discussion on, (and admittedly I did not read every single post as there are many), is what does the Holy Spirit tell each of you individually? Has the Holy Spirit convicted you (not condemmed!) about your giving? Just be obedient to the Holy Spirit, and see what happens. I think you will be amazed.
Praise Jesus, and bless Pastor Robert and Debbie Morris. They do amazing things for the World, and have equipped humble, generous disciples of Christ. it's easy to take one small piece of a sermon and critique every breath. Try it before criticizing. Love the last comment, let the Holy Spirit speak to you individually.
April
Go check out http://annualreport.gatewaypeople.com/ if you really think the money goes to Robert if you really want to see what actually happens with tithe's !
That annual report doesn't tell you anything. Can you link to an annual report that states Robert Morris' total income each year from Gateway and his associated activities? Of course not.
I just saw this Robert Morris today on the James Robison program. During the telecast, they showed a video of Morris preaching on tithing. In this video, he used 3 men as examples of tithing/not tithing to his wife (drawing the comparison of the bride of Christ). For the man who didn't tithe, Morris stated that he had "robbed God", "all he had would be taken from him" and he was "cursed". I'm sure there was more, but I turned the tv off, googled Morris and found this conversation.
Recently, I had a decision to make. Eat and pay the bills, or tithe. I chose to feed my son and myself and pay the bills. There wasn't enough left to tithe. I felt fearful, condemned and remorseful that I hadn't gone without some food. I didn't even go to church because I was so ashamed. Does that sound like grace?
For those who have plenty, the prosperity gospel means nothing (unless they're on the receiving end of it). It's only the poor who latch onto some legalistic formula, to find a job or keep their home against all odds.
For my part, and after much meditation on the subject, I'm glad for Robert Morris' teachings. It settled for me, once and for all, that the law is death and bondage. I choose to live by grace, and be led by the Holy Spirit in my giving.
The fact is the tithe was only given if there was food left over after the people ate it at the feasts. So some jews gave none of the tithe to the priests but actually ate it all because they were too poor. Also, the tithe was less then 1% of their income because the tithe was just 10% of the increase on their agriculture goods. The jews didn't tithe off of the increase in their housing, furniture, clothing, textiles, transportation, heating and other industries. Only about 20% of their time was spent on farming and the only paid 10% off of this 20% of their economy which amounts to 2% and then they ate at least half of it during the feast which leaves at least less then 1%.
This is explained much more thoroughly on my website I just put up www.ShouldWeTithe.com
If Robert is money hungry, like some here make him out to be, then why does he give all his money away from his book "The Blessed Life"? (Which is 7 figures I might add). And also why does he tithe 20%? Go ahead, check to see if I'm right. Robert says that God will rebuke the devourer because GOD SAID THAT HE WOULD REBUKE THE DEVOURER. Get reall people. He is one of the most respected expositors of the Gospel in the world. Yes, there are Pastors who abuse their sheep and rarely speak w/o asking for money. (I can rarely turn on A christian TV station w/o seeing). Robert Morris is not one of them. People need to get it out of their head that a big church is a bad church. A BAD CHURCH IS A BAD CHURCH, regardless of the size. There are 3 reasons why someone speaks against Robert on this issue: A) jealousy; B) lack of knowledge; C) false humility.
Post a Comment