All reporters and bloggers, with the exception of the SBC Today Bunch and Tim Guthrie, are viewing the Liberty action as punishment against Caner for being untruthful. Some agree with the LU decision, many think it didn't go far enough.
But no where, anywhere on the Internet will you find a claim of "exoneration" except at the SBC Today Bunch website and Tim Guthrie's blog. "Delusional" is how Chantry characterizes Guthrie's position. Not surprising, the Baptist Press has been silent so far (Correction: Baptist Press did have an article on Monday 6/28 here), as has Peter Lumpkins. In fact we're all eagerly awaiting Peter's next "vlog" - donning his cap and sleeveless shirt - to tell us of Caner's victory, just as much as we are anticipating the fake Ergun Caner's next episode at YouTube - both with be very entertaining I'm sure.
Tim Guthrie's blog posts are embarrassingly painful to read as he first declares total exoneration for Caner, then posts a total of four blog posts in three days, with the last one yesterday backtracking a bit in a confusing post in which he is so flustered he wasn't able to number his points correctly (1, 2, 4, 5).
When sampling the various news accounts and blog writings of the Caner scandal, I think we see very pointedly the value of Christian blogging. Sadly Liberty was only interested in the truthfulness of their seminary president if the secular media was interested. The secular media acknowledges that it was the Christian bloggers who kept the pressure on this story, posting video and audio evidence of Caner's deception which finally resulted in the media paying attention and then LU was suddenly concerned. Do real universities behave in that manner concerning their presidents - they're concerned only when the media is concerned?
Gone are the days when lay people get spoon fed from their pastors or from "Baptist Press" what is going on in their convention. Information and insightful and controversial analysis abounds, and this is a good thing as we have seen here.
--------------------
On a side note: one quote that caught my attention was in the Associated Press article that I don't think had been confirmed before: AP reported: "...[Caner] asked friendly organizations to remove damning clips from their websites." We all suspected that he did, but the AP confirmed it.
I know the Ohio Free Will Baptists eventually did remove from their website the four very damning sermons from a 2007 men's retreat where Caner was in absolute rare form, prior to the completion of the LU investigation, but they told me they were not asked by Caner or Liberty to do it. I archived copies of the four sermons before their removal, and provided copies to one of the LU committee members during the investigation. After I blogged about those Caner sermons in April, an Ohio Free Will Baptist staff member contacted me and demanded I remove the audio excerpts I posted, and that I remove their logo from my blog post. I did remove their logo, but kept the audio excerpt clip which is still here, claiming it was allowable under the Fair Use doctrine.
A compilation of news and blogger accounts in the past few days that are worth reading:
Associated Baptist Press: Liberty Demotes Caner
Associated Press: Muslim-Turned Preacher Out as Dean
BeliefNet: Caner Sacked as Dean
Examiner: Liberty Removes Caner as Dean
Christianity Today: Liberty Cuts Caner as Dean
News and Advance: LU Won't Renew Caner Contract
NEW: Christian Post: LU Demotes Caner
[Lots of "demotes", "cuts", "sacked", but I couldn't find any news reports stating Caner is "exonerated", but I'm still looking!]
Some of the best blogs giving analysis of what the Caner decision means to evangelicalism:
Tom Chantry: Declaration from Liberty (most insightful and balanced, a must read)
Wade Burleson: Caner and the Liberty Honor Code (pointing out LU hypocrisy in Caner decision)
Wade Burleson: Celebrity = Integrity in SBC
Wade Burleson: SBC Today = "Bagdad Bob" (painfully hilarious)
James White: The Full Liberty Statement (White not impressed with LU statement)
Gene Clyatt: Lynchburg, We Have a Problem (Most hard-hitting, critical analysis of LU's actions)
R.A. McGough: A Christian University? Liberty is Neither (Just as hard-hitting as Clyatt)
72 comments:
Guthrie needs to see a counselor or take a vacation or something.
Baptist Press had a story in Monday's edition. So they are not silent on this.
Anon - thanks, I do see the BP news story...
I'd call SBCT's stuff painfully embarrassing rather than embarrasingly painful. Not good either way.
Contrast ABP and BP on this. Both report the facts but ABP's Bob Allen notes that Caner not too long ago called Jerry Rankin a "liar." There's some irony for you.
William
All of them, Rogers, Guthrie, Worley, and even Barber (who wrote a blog post about "Liberty's Steely Backbone" (For those of you who do not know, Barber was appointed as a Trustee of SWBTS and is a protege of Patterson. How convenient that Patterson has his young protege's as trustee) need to give up the pastorate.
They need a dose of reality in the real world. They have lived in the Baptist bubble too long. They need to go out and work real jobs where they have an actual boss. I would love to see them try their sarcasm and arrogance on a real boss in the real world. I would love to see them try to redefine facts for a real boss. They would last about a week.
Let us hope the pew sitters who pay their salaries wake up before it is too late. but I doubt it will happen.
William - very painful and very embarrassing. :)
Anon - you are right about Bart Barber, I had forgotten about that "Steely Backbone" post! I guess now, using Barber's standard, they are wimps with a noodle for a backbone.
Now, this, William, is painfully embarrassing:
The Steely Backbone of the School of Jerry Falwell
Barber tried to wax eloquently about his youthful days of reading Mad Magazine, comparing that magazine to bloggers lampooning Caner.
Then he recalled Falwell's own "feet of clay".
Then this gem:
"Considering all of this, I find it comical to observe bloggers thinking that, by turning up a little blogging heat upon Dr. Ergun Caner, they are going to be able to unseat him from his position at the helm of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary."
And this:
"So, like a seasoned palm tree in the Florida keys, the school that Jerry built will sway with the howling winds that blow from people who are never going to be a friend to Liberty under any circumstances, and in the end the school's steely backbone will hold intact as it always has, and the truth will continue to sound forth from Lynchburg."
I guess Bart doesn't live in Florida. You see, us Floridians know even palm trees (not sure what a "seasoned" palm tree is) can be flattened and uprooted when the storms howl hard enough.
I've read and conversed via blogs and email with all the above mentioned and this latest response or set of responses still bogglesin the mind and may tell us just where we are spiritually on this one. I notice that in the ABP article there are many SBC leaders and SB people on the board of LU. We are deeply embedded with LU.
Byron noted on my blog that on the 25th Ergun tweeted “Drake backstage: Unplugged, uncombed, caffeinated and sugar-infused. Donuts R holy?” Is this a man who has been broken? I don't know.
Tom: What you did in this was truly amazing. We have become friends out of all this and for that I am truly grateful.
Just one week ago on Monday 6/21/10, Ergun Canner was proclaiming his innocence in front of this Theology (101 ?) Class ...
{portrait of a magnificent obsession} > Theology Day 1
Walking into Ergun Caner's theology class, I was a bit skeptical of what the day had in store. Rumors were flying (they still are) and I didn't know what to believe (that has changed now). I love theology, but most students at Liberty don't wait until their Junior year to take it. I did.
...
Within the first 20 minutes of class Ergun is chatting about the accusations against him, but he made it clear that he isn't worrying about the issue or looking in to it...yet he gave my class an explanation, which I was extremely grateful for since for the next 4 days he would teach me a basis of theology that I would use throughout the rest of my academic life. If you're interested I have 7 minutes of his innocence recorded on my cell phone. *(I have recently been contacted about this media clip via blog comments, and let me make it clear that I will not be giving out any information).
I have not kept up with all the details of this story, but has any word been heard from Ergun's brother, Emir Caner? Emir serves as president of Truett-McConnel, a Baptist affliated college. Emir had to at least know that the stories his brother was telling were fictitious. Did he or has he spoken out about this?
Michael A. Jordan, Pastor
Mount Vernon Baptist Church, Axton, VA
"They need to go out and work real jobs where they have an actual boss. I would love to see them try their sarcasm and arrogance on a real boss in the real world. I would love to see them try to redefine facts for a real boss. They would last about a week."
A week???? They wouldn't finish the first day!!
Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Those Who Live in Another Reality
But when I read this on Norman Geisler's Facebook page, I was left without words (briefly, anyway):
Norman Geisler An extensive independent investigation has exonerated Dr. Ergun Caner of all the false charges made against him by extreme Muslims and others and has been retained as a Professor at Liberty University. In spite of a few misstatements (which we all make and he has corrected), nothing has diminished his testimony and orthodoxy as one of the great Christian voices of our time. I totally support him.
Grace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > My Email to Dr. Norman Geisler and His Facebook Statement in Response.
Where is Jerry Vines on this subject. He was the Chairman of LU Trustees and had invited Caner to FBCJ a couple of times. I would like to know where he stands on this matter.
Probably the same place he was on the Darrell Gilyard topic-who knows?
Tim Rogers said(sbctoday.com): Also, the committee said; “…that Dr. Caner has made factual statements that are self-contradictory.” The committee did not find that Dr. Caner “lied”, they found that he made statements of fact but sometimes had wrong dates, times and places. These are the same as “mis-statements”, of which Dr. Caner apologized publicly and we ran that statement here on SBC Today."
Since he won't allow any questions about Caner, I'll ask it here.
Tim, can you simply answer the question? Are you telling me you don't believe that Caner lied?
He said he came to America in 1978 on many different occassions since 2001. Was he lying? He said his father had many wives. Was he lying? Did his brothers get saved during his first time preaching? Did he really wear Muslim garb to school? Did he really watch Dukes of Hazzard in Turkey?
OK, not to overload you Tim, Caner said he came to America in 1978 on many different occasions since 2001. Was he lying? I would like to hear Geisler, Tim G. and Peter on this one also... but they won't respond.
"I guess Bart doesn't live in Florida. You see, us Floridians know even palm trees (not sure what a "seasoned" palm tree is) can be flattened and uprooted when the storms howl hard enough"
One can only hope that more and more people will see these guys for the shallow, political sychophants they really are. Truth is not their goal, folks. They have "grown up" under the teaching and guidance of Paige Patterson, the mentor of both Caner and Gilyard.
Barb Barber
David Worley
Tim Guthrie
Tim Rogers
Let us get the names and addresses of their churches and warn folks.
(But in some ways, they are very ignorant. Anyone notice their mentors, Patterson, Land, etc, have not spoken out publicly in favor of Caner? And Land never misses an opportunity to be in front of a mic or camera. But this time he declined)
I just got back from reading SBC Today's latest. I am almost speachless.
Maybe I am speachless...
The link to Dr. Barber's blog reminded me of how far this discussion has come. But if you notice, it was an April 1 posting.
Ain't the Internet grand! :)
Tim Rogers said(sbctoday.com): Also, the committee said; “…that Dr. Caner has made factual statements that are self-contradictory.” The committee did not find that Dr. Caner “lied”, they found that he made statements of fact but sometimes had wrong dates, times and places. These are the same as “mis-statements”, of which Dr. Caner apologized publicly and we ran that statement here on SBC Today."
Doea anyone else find it ironic that these "conservative" Christians sound just like the Clinton defenders we used see interviewed?
It may have been different if he had said he was from Mars.
Anon 8:09. I guess it depends on your definition of what "is" is.
Do any of you remember in grammer school the story of George Washington and the cutting down of the cherry tree with his hatchet? George did not lie when his dad asked him did he cut the tree down. George admitted he had. I wish all leaders could and would take this example. It would certainly help them out when they get in tight situations. Maybe they don't tell that anymore?
Washington Post > On Faith > Liberty U. removing Ergun Caner as seminary dean over contradictory statements
Got a compliment on the new blog format.
Told the person:
Thanks! I had my church marketing consultant work very hard on my new blog format! These guys are very, very expensive.
:)
I like the new template, too. You probably spent as much as I do on my blog templates :)
Tom - in regards to your new blog format, I believe it may be considered threatening. I mean the color scheme, is a little more ominous now. Perhaps some people obsessed with your blogging may feel you changed this format to send the message that you are never going away, and therefore you are unstable. Or that the color scheme means to "eliminate" those you are posting about.
Also, be prepared to be re-deposed now. I am sure the attorneys for the city, church, SAO, and detective will demand to know the following:
1.) Why did you change your format, huh, why?
2.) Did your extended family members know you were going to change the format? Really? Who knew and what are their names? When did they know you changed it? How did they find out? Did you tell them?
3.) Are you jealous of other blog formats?
4.) Have any of your family members read the blog since you changed formats? Any of them post on your site since you changed the format? Do they agree with your changed format or would they prefer the old format?
5.)Are you obsessed with this new blog format?
6.)Why do you hate the old blog format? Why do you attack those that continue to use the old format.
Be ready to answer some tough questions, Tom. Highly paid lawyers will want to know this stuff. It may be crucial to defending why Hinson helped the church find out who you were so they could discipline you. Darn those Constitutional rights! You give up your rights as a Christian, don't you know. And those Federal privacy laws be damned when you criticize prominent leaders and church members.
This would be humorous if not so sad.
There are 3 key points that no one is even examining in this issue:
1. Innocence. This has not gone to court or deposition so therefore he is guaranted by law the presumption of innocence.
2. Impartial. The accusations are being made by those that do not care for Dr. Caner. We are guaranted impartiality in the US, but it is not granted here.
3. Innocuous. The statements he made were humorous in nature. Did it go too far...YES! But we have ALL had times where we told jokes or stories that we carried to an extreme.
I have not heard the kind of venom for Dr. Caner be directed at Satan, Demons, or Child Molestors. Guess we need to go get a stake and go head over to Salem for a trial....
I have not heard the kind of venom for Dr. Caner be directed at Satan, Demons, or Child Molestors.
__________________________________
True. The only worse "venom" is reserved for bloggers that post facts and then ask questions raised by those facts. At least Caner and his wife were not "trespassed" from attending their home church. Maybe A.C. Soud is working on a letter and on a deacon's resolution he can somberly read from the pulpit?
"I have not heard the kind of venom for Dr. Caner be directed at Satan, Demons, or Child Molesters . Guess we need to go get a stake and go head over to Salem for a trial...." [Anonymous 12:17]
I was going to disagree with this, but then I decided, "Why bother." The anonymous author is either a "newbie" or "logically challenged." In either case, refutation would be a waste of time.
If you want to see venom, go over to SBC Today. Don't put your feet under the screen because it might run off onto them.
I wonder if Dr. Barber will keep "playing with them" when he gets back? Surely not. But loyalty can result in strange decisions. We've seen a few of those in the case of EC.
There are 3 key points that no one is even examining in this issue:
1. Innocence. This has not gone to court or deposition so therefore he is guaranted by law the presumption of innocence.
2. Impartial. The accusations are being made by those that do not care for Dr. Caner. We are guaranted impartiality in the US, but it is not granted here.
3. Innocuous. The statements he made were humorous in nature. Did it go too far...YES! But we have ALL had times where we told jokes or stories that we carried to an extreme.
___________________________________
Okay, let's consider them.
1) The presumption of innocence is required in a criminal proceeding where a defendant is being charged with a crime. I don't think any crime has been alleged here. If it has been, and they are charging Michael with a crime, then yes, that presumption of innocence must be overcome beyond a reasaonable doubt with admissible evidence.
2.)Where are we "guaranteed" impartiality in the U.S.? In any event, why do you say those that pointed out his lies and gibberish are impartial. They may be the most fair and impartial people you will ever know. Why do you assume that just because some folks want an explanation, or apology, from Caner for his 10 years of lying, that they don't care for him. Flawed logic indeed. If you are asking for an explanation, or have concerns about this, then you must not care for the man. Very cultish thinking.
3. Telling crowds right after 9/11 that you are a trained jihadist, trained to fly planes into buildings, is not a humorous joke. Period. Need I say more?
Anon 12:17
Having grown up in Salem, I need to make a correction. The "witches" were not burned at the stake. They were hung with one guy being pressed.
Just as you do not know this piece of history, you have not thoroughly read the Christian bloggers out here. I, for one, have written innumerable posts on sexual predators in the church. Christa Brown has devoted an entire site to this issue called "Stop Baptist Predators."
I do not know Caner and have no reason to not "care for him." I don't like lies, especially when they are used to manipulate people.
And as to "innocuous humor" I have one thing to say...Huh????? Oh yeah, it was a riot that he said he was raised as a jihadist-I could barely contain myself. This is not innocuous, it is a manipulative lie that was used to gain notoriety.And it is sad that you can't see the harm Caner has done to the witness of the church in America.
Great Scott! Humorous?????? What are they teaching in churches these days.
I have not heard the kind of venom for Dr. Caner be directed at Satan, Demons, or Child Molestors. Guess we need to go get a stake and go head over to Salem for a trial....
June 30, 2010 12:17 PM
This statement (and those before) is a bit melodramatic. The issue is simply this: those who are spiritual leaders, because of their influence over the audiences they speak to, must be held to a higher accountability. Ergun Caner continually over a period of time
stated as fact, times and events that were not true. Those who are in positions of influence/authority
have to have accountability or they become loose cannons to the detriment of the church/the body of Christ. There was no reason for Caner to continually misconstrue facts about his upbringing except to titillate his audiences. Just thought of a saying I learned as a child: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." I do not for a moment think Caner intended to hurt anyone with his tangled facts. But he hurt the heart of God, he hurt the reputation of the church, he hurt his own reputation and I'm sure he has hurt those who care for him. There should be no rejoicing in his downfall. Instead there should be much prayer that he will truly be broken and remolded into a vessel God can use for His glory.
Anon 12:17 speaks Truth!
It is compelling arguments like this that kept OJ from getting convicted.
I have no doubt that Ergun is guilty of lying...have you ever lied? Momma asked you, "how many cookies you eat before supper?"
"2"!
YOU LIED! You ate a dozen!
He came to the US at age 4...no..age 10...no age 12....WHO CARES?
A few dates mixed up and we are breaking out the electric chair.
You'd thought he did did something horrible like go to the Liquor store.
Anonymous: Your kidding right? This is why the church is in such bad shape with people leaving in droves. It seems in most cases rightfully so. If we keep using your logic and not scripture that is our first problem. Caner sinned. He lied. About everything. He didn't embellish. He made up facts that were not true. Each and every word that came out of his mouth. He sinned. He needs to come clean with that.
"There are 3 key points that no one is even examining in this issue:"
That is because they are irrelevant.
"1. Innocence. This has not gone to court or deposition so therefore he is guaranted by law the presumption of innocence."
Gone to court - for what - lying? He told these lies in front of church congregations not a grand jury. Since no laws were broken this is a moot point.
"2. Impartial. The accusations are being made by those that do not care for Dr. Caner. We are guaranted impartiality in the US, but it is not granted here."
Again, you are thinking of a trial here. Lying to gullible pew sitters for a decade is a sin. There is no law against lying to church members in the US. To say that accusations are being made by those that do not care for Dr. Caner, you would have to know the motivations of each person who is pointing out his contradictory statements. You do not and that kind of judgement is spoken against in scripture. In addition, to say that only those who support Dr. Caner are allowed to criticize him is absurd. This is America - we have free speech rights and all Christians are called to hold their leaders to a standard of truth and integrity.
"3. Innocuous. The statements he made were humorous in nature. Did it go too far...YES! But we have ALL had times where we told jokes or stories that we carried to an extreme."
What's funny about saying that you were raised in Europe and taught to be a Jihadist and then at another time saying that you moved to the US when you were 4? Please show me an example from Scripture where God tried to laugh off an example of a leader lying. Lying to make your testimony more impressive is not acceptable to God. It is not even accepted by the secular world. But for some reason, a few celebrity worshiping Christians tell us differently. Unfortunately, their reasoning is not based on scripture. The "nobody's perfect" excuse doesn't wash with God.
"I have not heard the kind of venom for Dr. Caner be directed at Satan, Demons, or Child Molestors. Guess we need to go get a stake and go head over to Salem for a trial...."
Please try to get some perspective. You are accusing Christians who are doing exactly what scripture directs them to do with a witch trial. Your opinions and perspective are in direct conflict with the Bible. While your perspective perfectly matches that of the culture (the only thing that you can do wrong is judge someone), it is in directly conflict with scripture.
Anonymous wrote:
"I would love to see them try to redefine facts for a real boss. They would last about a week."
There was a movie some time ago called 'Shattered Glass.' The New Republic magazine, a completely secular outfit, discovered they had on the staff an eager-beaver reporter who always got the quote, because he made it up. Once they realized what had happened, they did not cover it up, they apologized to their readers. Then they went back and did all they could to unravel the tall tales Stephen Glass had spun. It is distressing to realize this secular magazine cared more about the truth than does Liberty U.
There was also Jayson Blair of NYT.
Wiki > Jayson Blair
NYT > CORRECTING THE RECORD - Times Reporter Who Resigned Leaves Long Trail of Deception
"1. Innocence. This has not gone to court or deposition so therefore he is guaranted by law the presumption of innocence."
You are right. Judgement Day has not happened yet.
"2. Impartial. The accusations are being made by those that do not care for Dr. Caner. We are guaranted impartiality in the US, but it is not granted here."
Is God a parital or impartial Judge? Ever read Hebrews 10:26-31? What does it say about those who willingly sin while knowing truth?
"3. Innocuous. The statements he made were humorous in nature. Did it go too far...YES! But we have ALL had times where we told jokes or stories that we carried to an extreme."
We have? In the Name of Jesus we told "jokes" that were really lies about our background to make us more exciting to the congregation? And made money off of it, to boot?
You do realize that all this is a lie or hidden will one day be made known? To everyone.
Your comment only shows the worldly training you have had that passed itself off as Christian.
Hint: God does not judge by worldly standards. Read Revelation 21 and take is seriously. He is talking to those who say they are BELIEVERS.
FBC Jackass
you left this on my blog. Keep your crap away from my site. You aren't in my league as a writer, as a Christian or as a man. If you'd care to prove the latter wrong, a meeting could be arranged.
You sicken me and you sicken Christ. You went after Caner's WIFE. You're going to rot in hell and if I could get away with it I'd enjoy sending you there on a shuttle.
Here is the post where you refer to a great man like Dr. Geisler as "Baghdad Bob".
"FBC Jax Watchdog has left a new comment on your post "Norman Geisler Speaks About Dr. Ergun Caner":
It's more like Bagdad Bob saying "The Americans are not here, they have been defeated".
:)
Brother Craig - please let me know where I "went after Caner's wife". I honestly have no idea what you are referring to there. You are lying about me, and your language and accusations seem to be quite treatening. Sorry you are so angry at people who don't agree with you. Its when I incur the wrath of people like you that I know I am in the center of God's will for my life. :)
I don't believe I am going to rot in hell. I am a Christian and I reject your damnation of my soul to hell, sir.
You are right, I am nowhere near where you are as a writer...because you are in the gutter and slime, and I sure wouldn't want to be there with you. You have a potty mouth, and need to clean it up.
First it was First Bapist Cat in the Hat, now its FBC "Jackass".
OK, I'll register that one, too, Craiger.
Craig - you said:
"You're going to rot in hell and if I could get away with it I'd enjoy sending you there on a shuttle."
That sounds like you would like to kill me, end my life, and that you would, but only if you could get away with it. And you say you would like it! Which way would bring you the greatest pleasure? Shoot me in the head? Or behead me? Kill me in my house with my wife and kids here? Or maybe blow up my house and kill all of my family?
Craig, you need help. You are a religious zealot. Your religion has made you blind, and thank God there are laws in this land that prevent zealots like you from killing people who don't agree with your faith. You would have fit in perfectly back in the time of the crusades....convert to Craig's views, or die by the sword.
You're a sick man.
Your views and your words sicken Christ.
Caner sinned. He lied. About everything. He didn't embellish. He made up facts that were not true. Each and every word that came out of his mouth. He sinned. He needs to come clean with that.
Oh, please. Caner did not "lie about everything." He lied about some things and told different versions of his childhood, some details true and some lies. "Each and every word that came out of his mouth" was not a lie. Some things that came out of his mouth were lies... and if those who know Arabic and Turkish are to be believed, apparently sometimes jibberish. Statements like these sound as ridiculous as those who insist he's been "exonerated."
Ergun Caner does need to come clean though. Specifically, publicly, and sincerely. Sooner rather than later. And for sitting silently by, his little brother, too.
Brother Craig, I feel your pain but my Brother, you need to get some therapy and anger management counseling. YOU crazy!
This Blog reminds me of a Christian version of People Magazine!
You want the lastest gossip...just dial up "FBCWatchdog"!!
Why don't we take this energy and do something productive like...bust Deacon's that drink Wine or the SS teacher that dips snuff!
Boy this stuff is getting good!
"Rot in hell," he explained.
Read The Fabulist by Stephen Glass if you want to see what its like to be a compulsive liar.
There were 3 copies in the Jax Main Library...don't know where you people are.
He wrote it after getting the boot from the New Republic. I've watched Shattered Glass so many times I know some of it by heart.
The best scene to me was where the boss starts pulling those magazines where he fabricated the stories one by one off the shelf.
See even non Christians know when something is wrong. More than Christians I'm sorry to say.
You know what I do nowadays when I hear a pastor start to talk?
Click. Gee hope I get over it someday. Something tells me it won't be soon.
Just be glad this is not the 1500's or Craig would throw the faggot on the pyre and claim he was doing it for God.
He is one sick puppy. but, keep in mind he is a sample of the thinking we are dealing with in certain high areas of the SBC. It is just that some do not spew their thoughts indiscriminately like Craig does but the sentiment is the same. They really do see us as ignorant sheep who need to worship the celebrity and give money.
Every now and then they do goof up...like Brunson calling Tom a sociopath to a reporter. Or Patterson showing up in a dying mans room with a typewriter to convince him to make a codecil to his will.
Very pastoral guys.
YOu guys should google Craig and see why he is so angry.
"That sounds like you would like to kill me, end my life, and that you would, but only if you could get away with "
Where is Hinson when you really need him?
World Magazine has picked up the story too.
http://online.worldmag.com/tag/ergun-caner/
Looking at Craig's profile I see that he is divorced and his favorite movie is The Godfather. Anyone surprised?
Watchdog: I like the new look of your site. Easier on the eyes.:-)
The problem with Liberty's retention of Caner without requiring Caner to make a public apology left open the door for SBC Today to claim that Caner was exhonerated. If Caner was fired, then others who have promoted and subsequently come to Caner's defense would also have been embarassed. What Liberty did was basically slap Caner on the wrist. They did it to save many hides, not just Caner's.
Even if Caner lied/embellish his testimony, I say so what? Jesus died for your sins including that one. all you need is Jesus in your heart.
anon 12:22
With regard to the Patterson comment, it's encouraging to see you've done your homework (and I'm sure you learned much more) The days of blindly trusting are over! Check out OS Hawkins and who he was a character witness for, it'll turn your stomach. Another poster said it well, loyalty will make some do strange things. But where is God in all of this?
This may be a slanderous and libelous and defamatory comment about Craig, but I am going to publish it anyway since it is cut and pasted from his own bio:
"Alumnus of Liberty University"
Need we say more?
A quote from Craig on James White's blog:
"Listen jack*** if you are going to quote my facebook entry USE MY NAME and quote me in context! I'm nobody with nothing to lose. I don;t have to worry about what the SBC thinks like the gracious Dr. Caner does. My South Philly upbringing and my righteous indignation coupled with my detest for frauds like you would not hinder me in the LEAST from showing up at your next public appearance and sticking a boot in your a****. You sicken me, you harm the body, and you offend the Spirit of the God you claim to serve but are wholly unfamiliar with, except on dusty pages of endless technical theology that you have likely not ONCE seen in real, God-breathed action. Your veil is thin, my arrogant reformer friend. You should sign all your writings "Mrs. Turpin"
___________________________________
Yep, I want to be more like Craig and those that are aligning themselves with him.
Also, compare his writing, vocabulary and threats with the hundreds of posts by Tom and you will see that Tom's blog has been well written, Christ like, professional, and well reasoned. Yet, for some reason, the JSO and SAO had to come after Tom and violated his Constitutional rights. Then when caught with their pants down, they had to try and justify their actions by going back and trying to come up with something, anything, that was threatening. Too bad they couldn't find some quotes like Craig has made threatening Tom and James White. They only could rely on unrelated, unreported and uncorroborated events by family members over the past few years to try and defend themselves.
Thank God for Federal judges who see this for what it is. Powerful, white, male chauvinist, millionaires at FBC JAX used their member, deacon and discipline committee member, a JSO detective, to get Tom's name as a favor/courtesy so the church could hammer him and his wife and family.
Is this still okay in the U.S.? I hope the judge will send a message to the big boys at FBC Jax that will be heard all over the Southern Baptist Convention.
More on Craig from sites promoting his book and himself:
Summary
Craig Daliessio was a successful mortgage banker at the peak of his career. He had a nice house, a beautiful daughter, and a sense of contentment. Then the mortgage industry collapsed and Craig saw his dreams being swept away, and along with them—his hope. By August 2008, he was homeless, living in a car hidden behind a church. He had lost all hope when one magical night, one magical voice from his childhood broke through the clouds and helped him to believe in his dreams again. The night was October 29, 2008, when the Philadelphia Phillies won the World Series; the voice—the great Harry Kalas. In a twist of fate, Craig heard that voice on the radio and the memories of happier times started him on his long road back—and forward—to becoming who he was always meant to be.
About the Author
Craig Daliessio was a collegiate hockey player at his Liberty University, and is currently pursuing a master’s in theological studies. He is the author of three books and three highly successful blogs.
FROM HOME LOANS TO HOMELESS!!!
Okay, this Craig guy has become very interesting...
Maybe he is so sensitive to Caner's "factual inaccuracies" because Craig himself seems to be pushing some kind of sensational testimony himself to get book sales and speaking gigs. Hmmm. Here is a bio I found:
"Author, Speaker, Craig Daliessio tells of his experience as an 11 year vetean of the mortgage industry. His journey from home loans to being homeless will inspire you, make you laugh, cry ,and he will shine a light on what really matters when the chips are down. His message of hope, faith, devotion to family and getting back on your feet when the world knocks you down, will provide the strength you and your folks need to press on thorugh hard times."
"YOU and YOUR FOLKS" - really? I wonder who his niche market is? More gullible pastors and sheep.
Maybe we need a meet Craig Daliessio post. South Philly, mortgage industry, homeless...? Really?
Craig is just trying to promote his book and speaking gigs. I guess the Brentwood Rotary Club speaking gig doesn't pay the bills.
1. tells a sensational story
2. writes books
3. gets speaking gigs
Sound like anyone else we know?
"Craig heard that voice on the radio and the memories of happier times started him on his long road back—and forward—to becoming who he was always meant to be."
An angry foul-mouthed threatening bully?
Watchdog: Now YOU and all the other real Christians know what it is like to be labeled DIVISIVE!!!!
The wolves are released. No time to debate facts just go after you in a mean and hateful way. NO WONDER THIS IS THE LAODICEAN CHURCH AGE. WHO NEEDS IT!!!!
One additional note, most know nothing of the Queensbury Rules of Boxing.
Even if Caner lied/embellish his testimony, I say so what? Jesus died for your sins including that one. all you need is Jesus in your heart.
July 1, 2010 10:58 AM
Jesus hung on the cross so preachers could lie to other believers for 9 years?
If Jesus is in our hearts, we cannot willfully and continually lie for 9 years. Or did they not tell you that at church? Most don't.
I sincerely pray that Ergun Caner will go through a public confession and followed by [public] repentance.
My Utmost For His Highest [Oswald Chambers] > December 7th
REPENTANCE
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation." 2 Corinthians 7:10
Conviction of sin is best portrayed in the words -
"My sins, my sins, my Saviour,
How sad on Thee they fall."
Conviction of sin is one of the rarest things that ever strikes a man. It is the threshold of an understanding of God. Jesus Christ said that when the Holy Spirit came He would convict of sin, and when the Holy Spirit rouses a man's conscience and brings him into the presence of God, it is not his relationship with men that bothers him, but his relationship with God - "against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight." The marvels of conviction of sin, forgiveness, and holiness are so interwoven that it is only the forgiven man who is the holy man, he proves he is forgiven by being the opposite to what he was, by God's grace. Repentance always brings a man to this point: I have sinned. The surest sign that God is at work is when a man says that and means it. Anything less than this is remorse for having made blunders, the reflex action of disgust at himself.
The entrance into the Kingdom is through the panging pains of repentance crashing into a man's respectable goodness; then the Holy Ghost, Who produces these agonies, begins the formation of the Son of God in the life. The new life will manifest itself in conscious repentance and unconscious holiness, never the other way about. The bedrock of Christianity is repentance. Strictly speaking, a man cannot repent when he chooses; repentance is a gift of God. The old Puritans used to pray for "the gift of tears." If ever you cease to know the virtue of repentance, you are in darkness. Examine yourself and see if you have forgotten how to be sorry.
Nothing says Christ-like more than a profanity laced diatribe physically threatening a brother in Christ who is following Biblical precedent.
Liberty U is certainly turning out some fine role models for today's young people.
Anonymous said...
Just be glad this is not the 1500's or Craig would throw the faggot on the pyre and claim he was doing it for God.
Hey, Watchdog, did someone just call you a homosexual? hahahaaa
Just be glad this is not the 1500's or Craig would throw the faggot on the pyre and claim he was doing it for God.
Hey, Watchdog, did someone just call you a homosexual? hahahaaa
July 1, 2010 6:58 PM
Perfect example of how word meanings change. Or can be changed. Remember that with translations and do your homework! Be a Berean!
News Flash:
CANER REPENTS PUBLICLY!
See link:
http://www.christiantoday.co.kr/view.htm?id=209442
As a country girl I can say this - a male donkey is, in all honesty, also known as a jack ass. A female donkey is a jenny ass.
So, FBC Jax Watchdog, maybe what you should say to Craig is nothing but eee-awww! I don't think he really deserves more, anyway. ;-)
News Flash:
CANER REPENTS PUBLICLY!
See link:
http://www.christiantoday.co.kr/view.htm?id=209442
Wonder if they'll also publish this in English...
I also wonder if this was a mistaken link, or if it's making an ironic statement.
I ran it through an automatic translation program--which worked after a fashion. It is simply the event reported in Korean. I did not see anything that looked new--even with the odd translation in spots.
A joke. Actually sort of funny. :) I don't want to encourage them though. :)
Anonymous wrote,
"I've watched Shattered Glass so many times I know some of it by heart. The best scene to me was where the boss starts pulling those magazines where he fabricated the stories one by one off the shelf."
That's exactly what I'd like to see,-- someone setting the record straight. I'd like to see Liberty, or someone, put out an accurate time-line. There are so many loose ends: did EC ever live in Brooklyn and attend 'Aquinas'? It could be true, it could be a fabrication. (I don't mean his coming to Brooklyn as a hardened jihadi could possibly be true, but who knows, maybe he spent a semester there in high school.) The New Republic went to the trouble of going back and sifting through what was a true and what was false, and nobody has even bothered to do that here. What a shame unbelievers do it better.
How do some of these folks believe that Caner is telling the truth about when he came to the USA? They say he came in 1970, 1972 and 1978--he just didn't reside until 1978...
Wouldn't it be nice to have Ergun explain this? If he hasn't lied to dozen of churches then he should set the record straight by explaining what he meant by "coming to America in 78" as a teenager...
scandal? when did this become a scandal? o yeah when liberals saw a way to cream a conservative. how silly of me.
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