"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Tuesday, April 12, 2011

The Tithe Turns the Gospel Into Bad News to the Poor: Obama's Church Asks the Poor to Tithe, and Then Some



As you see above, even President Obama's old church, Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, formerly pastored by Jeremiah Wright, has a pastor who tells the poor in his congregation they must tithe to receive God's blessings - and they embarked on a campaign to get people to give MORE than the tithe. This campaign of "next level giving" is the pathway to more and more of God's material blessings.

The tithing doctrine knows no bounds. It doesn't matter if the church is a Southern Baptist mega or micro. It can be a huge emergent church, or it can be in the chapel of a baptist seminary. It is taught by the Mormons. Even Islam requires a percentage of gain from its faith community. Even the ancient Mesopotamians had their God, "Marduke the Moon God" require a tithe of his subjects.

As Frank Viola and George Barna say in their book "Pagan Christianity":
"If a believer wishes to tithe out of a personal decision or conviction, that is fine. Tithing becomes a problem when it is represented as God's command, binding upon every believer. Under the Old Testament system, tithing was good news to the poor. However, in our day, mandatory tithing equals oppression to the poor. Not a few poor Christians have been thrown into deeper poverty because they have felt obligated to give beyond their means."
And so it is today. Even Paige Patterson told his poor seminary students they are poor because they rob God of the tithe. He said he had to borrow money at times to keep his tithe commitment. He said God CANNOT bless someone who is not tithing. Is that the message to Christians? Borrow if you have to because that is the requirement for God to bless you? Put your tithe on your credit card?

Viola and Barna continue:
"[Christians] have been told if they do not tithe, they are robbing God and breaking his command. In such cases, the gospel is no longer 'good news to the poor'. Rather it becomes a heavy burden. Instead of liberty, it becomes oppression. We are so apt to forget that the original tithe that God established for Israel was to benefit the poor, not hurt them!"
Indeed, and this makes it quite disturbing when you see an inner-city church that has so many poor people, when their wealthy preacher stands in front of them to teach the 10% tithe is the beginning point to trusting God, and giving above the tithe is the pathway to prosperity. The preacher in the video is communicating during his illustration that if you give ABOVE the tithe, God will give you MORE and thus you can give more. I wonder if this pastor would recommend people on welfare to tithe out of their poverty? I've heard a Southern Baptist preacher in Nashville recently recommend that. It is all prosperity gospel.

So while tithing is bad news to the poor, it is good news to the rich in modern day America, as Barna and Viola write:
"Conversely, contemporary tithing is good news to the rich. To a high earner, 10 percent is a paltry sum. Tithing, therefore, appeases the consciences of the prosperous without impacting their lifestyle."
I would take this a step further, it is a doctrine that allows pastors of very large churches to amass huge personal fortunes through the generosity of their followers. If these wealthy mega church pastors actually followed the principles of giving in the New Testament rather than the Old, they would give most of their fortune away and live more modest lives. No better example of this is Obama's church, Trinity United Church of Christ: the church built their pastor, Jeremiah Wright, a 1.6 million dollar home. Must have taken quite a bit of yam tithing to buy that house!

107 comments:

Anonymous said...

Regardless of what you believe the bible teaches about tithing. That was a great visual illustration.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I disagree, a worthless illustration. Our lives are not a small table that can only fit 9 yams and a few boxes of macaroni.

Anonymous said...

Bad Combination:
The congregation is biblically illiterate.
The pastor is self-serving.
The poor are taken advantage of by an OC system that was designed to help them.
The rich make no sacrifice and feel superior.

Tom Parker said...

I am always suprised that people can not figure out themselves that they are not required to tithe.

With the Holy Spirit's leading one may easily give more than a tithe but it is not required by the Bible.

Sadly the tithe is only required by those that attempt to make the Bible say something it plainly does not do.

Arce said...

As you know, WD, people stay a long time in churches they should leave due due to heretical teaching by the pastor. There are many reasons, including fellowship with other believers, why people stay and attempt to wait out a bad pastor.

turnureyesonJC said...

That was a great message!

We serve a God that wants to open up the windows and bless us!

My Pastor used an illustration once with Skittles. He talked about how God wants to bless us if we will give him 1 out of 10 Skittles. Then he begin to throw boxes of Skittles into the audience...I was so blessed!!

Keep showing us these great videos!

Anonymous said...

"TYEOJ"

Thanks for sharing that heart-warming story. At first I was afraid that your pastor was going to give an over-simplified illustration and dumb it down for the masses.

The concept of 10% is not an easy one, and a small colored candy is the perfect way to express sacrificial giving.

Loyal Opposition said...

DAWG, what is you opinion on the Mormons and their handling of the "tithe"?

FormerFellow said...

They are all the same...

This "whole nutha level" is Ed Young's most favorite saying. About anything. About everything. And especially about giving.

heyman said...

In a church that I went to in my teens (inner city), there was a preacher that got up and taught that you shouldn't tithe on what you make today, but tithe on what you want to make in the future. So, if you're making $25,000 and want to make $40,000, you should be tithing $4,000/yr instead of $2,500. On top of that, you were pressured to give offerings. They would tell you what to give. "We need everyone to give $25 today for the offering."

Anonymous said...

I think some one at FBCJax is related to this tithe machineforojzq

Tom Parker said...

I watched the video this morning and it is insulting on all levels.

Truly amazing how some twist the Holy Scriptures.

Anonymous said...

The Tithe helped me!

I tithed off of my unemployment check and I got a job 2 weeks ago.

If I had not tithed, I would not have a job today.

God is faithful, I do my part, God always does His part!

Tithing....try it...you'll like it!

Anonymous said...

God is not a money machine

Lynn said...

heyman,
I had a similar experience at a Christian charity event. We were all sitting at our tables, and the guy giving the money pitch TOLD us to take out our wallets and take out a 5 dollar bill and hold it up! I was shocked. Of course, since this was a group of people and most people will follow the directions becaue of being in a group like that-it worked.

So maybe pastors could try this. Have everybody take out their checkbooks. He could tell them the date, the recipient, the amount, and remind them to sign. He could simply directly TELL them to do this. Many would! It's human nature.

Tom Parker said...

Any Mouse:

You said:"The Tithe helped me!

I tithed off of my unemployment check and I got a job 2 weeks ago.

If I had not tithed, I would not have a job today.

God is faithful, I do my part, God always does His part!

Tithing....try it...you'll like it!"

Glad it worked for you, but I don't see a guarantee of this always being the case from Scripture.

Maybe if you had given half of your unemployment check you would not of had to wait two weeks.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic: SBC Plodder [William Thornton] > Sorry, the SBC isn't one mammoth megachurch...

Anonymous said...

I may be ignorant, but I do not see how is giving to a church is giving to god. For one thing he is in position of all. When I give to a church I feel as if I am giving to the pastor and the staff and maybe some flood fights. How is giving to a church giving to god. Or should I say what god. God spelled backwards is dog. Are we directed to be like a dog and accept anything? When will a dog reject his master, never I thing.

Anonymous said...

Our Pastor challenged us to tithe for 90 days and if we were not blessed, they would give us our money back.

Man, I was blessed!

Auburn won the National Championship!

I got over $6,000 back on taxes.

My mother is cured of breast cancer.

This stuff is a miracle!

Anonymous said...

TROLL!!!

Anonymous said...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/march/vg-titheprobablynot.html

There are some articles from Christianity Today on the topic. This is the one that most follows the philosophy of this blog. But there are others given below.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/march/vg-titheyesgenerosity.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/march/vg-titheyesjoyfully.html

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to me that African-American pastors rarely preach on sanctity of life or sanctity of marriage, because the Democratic platform is pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage.

It's also interesting to me that Paige Patterson doesn't preach on gluttony or discipline or taking care of the temple of the Holy Spirit.

When you pastors preach expository-style then you actually have to preach everything (disciplining the body, God's take on abortion, New Testament view on giving instead of OT tithing).

I will say though (since this is anonymous) that my wife and I make a $110,000 combined income and over the course of the past 12 years we have raised our giving from 10% to 24%. It's amazing that we really can go without cable tv, a luxury trip or car, and a huge house - - and still sense the blessing of God for giving as He directed us.

Just my thoughts for today.

Anonymous said...

The D party is neither pro-abortion nor pro-gay marriage. It is pro-choice with respect to abortion (woman with the advice of her doctor) and pro equal rights. The difference may seem small to some, but to call people pro-abortion is a slander. It is equivalent to calling the R party pro forced parenthood, which is a form of slavery.

WishIhadknown said...

“Tithing....try it...you'll like it!”
Yeah, I do but that does not mean everyone has to that is between them and God. Nor does tithing on your unemployment mean you will get a job in two weeks or two months.
That does raise a question it all of this “good stuff” is supposed to happen to you when you tithe, why did you lose your job in the first place?
Giving, whatever the amount, is good, period. You give because it blesses, period. You cannot bribe God. You cannot give God a payoff.

WishIhadknown said...

"I got over $6,000 back on taxes."

Someone else needs tax planning.

WishIhadknown said...

Pro Choice is Pro Abortion. There is no difference. Either your for abortion or against it, there is no middle ground, only a copout.

Anonymous said...

Not true. I am virulently opposed to each and every abortion, but I do not seek to impose that on a woman who chooses to terminate a pregnancy. My opposition is due to a personal experience and to my love for children. But my pro-choice position is also due to seeing what happened prior to legalization, when an acquaintance was nearly killed and lost her ability to bear children to a back alley abortionist. And from knowing that there were many others like her. The positions are NOT THE SAME and your are LYING if you so insist.

Anonymous said...

The Church I attend gave us all money one Sunday!

We all got an envelope and it had different amounts in it.


I got $100.

Pastor told us to take that money and pray over it to bring back to church in one month a 10 fold increase.

I took my $100 and bought hot dogs and sold them and brought back over $1000 to my Church!

God multiplied that money!

Our Church took $10,000 and God increased it to over $75,000!!!

The Holy Ghost took over!

Anonymous said...

I know that Watchdog doesn't want this to turn into an abortion debate, but I wonder at times how much politics persuades the pulpit (I mean that for D's and R's and for white and black and hispanic preachers).

To say you are pro-choice means you sanction the death of a child in a mom's womb. To say you support "full inclusion of gay families in the life of nation" means you sanction non-Biblical marriage. I've noticed that fat white preachers don't preach much on purity, and dynamic black preachers don't preach much on sanctity of life or pro-biblical marriage.

But 7:07/7:46 Anonymous, don't insult our intelligence by saying that being pro-choice isn't pro-death of a child, based upon your "experience." It is not an imposition upon the mother to give life, it is an imposition upon the child to be sucked out from the womb.

This really is about preaching the full council of God's Word. If you do that then you hear pro-life, anti-legalistic tithing, pro-biblical marriage, take care of your body sermons...which seem to be missing in white and black churches.

Anonymous said...

I do not so sanction. I just refuse to intervene. It is not my place to sanction or to intervene. It is a decision for the woman and her physician.

Similarly with marriage. I do not sanction or intervene to stop or interfere with respect to anyone's marriage except my own and those of my children. I will encourage and counsel if asked.

BTW, what we practice and have practiced in this country for the last 60 years, at least, has not been biblical marriage. In bible times, marriages were arranged, frequently polygamous, the women was chattel property of the man, the man's relatives had an obligation to take his widow as a wife, etc., etc.

Anonymous said...

The full council of God's word is Jesus Christ, perfect in life, died, buried and resurrected, and the promise of the forgiveness of sin and eternal life in the presence of God. Anything else is an add on, and is very dangerous, because of our prejudices which color our understanding and interpretation.

WishIhadknown said...

Failing to intervene is to sanction. Failure to decide to be against abortion is to be for abortion. A decision not to decide is a decision.

WishIhadknown said...

It does not matter how a society chooses to practice or not practice marriage the issue is what is God’s directive in his word.

Anonymous said...

Then you sanction hunger and starvation by not taking all you have, selling everything, and using it to feed the poor.

I am not the judge. God is. I do not presume on His prerogatives. Apparently you make it your business to take the place of God in you approach to social issues. Then please stop condemning hungry children to death by your failure to feed them.

You are a heretic. Taking the place of God.

Anonymous said...

What is so apalling is that a Vetenarian in our state can be punished by fine or imprisonment for aborting a kitten or a puppy. God said He knew you before you were in the womb. Every life is sacred to God because every life is a miracle. Five of our presidents were orphaned off. I believe their parents would have loved to have reared their sons if they had only known.

Anonymous said...

I recall one tv preacher who after delivering the message said that he knew some of those attending could put $100 in the offering buckets. Then after the collection, he said he knew some could not afford $100 but could give $50 and the buckets were handed out. After that collection he went to a $20, $10, $5, and then the last collection was for only $1. Boy did he clean up. It was simply the biggest joke I have ever witnessed by a so-called evangelist. He also wore the largest diamond ring on his finger I ever saw on a tv preacher. Suckers are truly born every day.

WishIhadknown said...

Thou shalt not kill
God

Tom Parker said...

Wish:

You are just stirring up trouble.

WishIhadknown said...

Your argument is invalidated by the truths of abortion. Abortion does not save children from starvation. The vast majority of abortions are performed on women who have the economic means to provide for themselves and their child. I am not a judge. You and others like you are the judge, jury and executioner. You put yourself in the place of God by deciding who lives and who dies.
Look at the pictures of the babies torn apart in an abortion. Look at the dismembered arms and legs, the disemboweled bodies and the pure gore and tell me it is humane, tell me it is the “loving choice” to kill a totally and completely innocent child.

Tom Parker said...

Wish:

Let's try to refocus, this blog is about tithing.

Anonymous said...

I decide nothing and you are slandering me with false statements. You are putting yourself in God's place and blaspheming God.

I do not sanction anything. BTW, I chose to live in a poor area and give away more than half of my resources each year on behalf of the poor. I help abused people, mostly women and children. I work to ensure that food is available for those who are hungry.

There are almost no mentions of abortion in the Bible, but hundreds of verses about our obligations to the poor. Read Matthew 25. If there are hungry children in your area, you are condemned by their hunger. If you do not live in a poor area, you are spending your resources on fancy house and car and therefore are also condemned. You and your spouse, one of you is a "fat cow of Bashan" living on the abuse of the poor.

Similarly, there are only a couple of verses about homosexuality, but many about our obligation to the poor. I suggest that you read the Bible and count the verses. More than 40 percent have to do with our obligation to the poor. BTW the OT tithe was to feed the poor.

WishIhadknown said...

It is you who needs to go back and read the Bible. There may not be anything directly about abortion but there is plenty about sacrificing babies.
I accuse you of nothing. You do not have to give an account to me. God is the one who will judge not me.
Again, look at the picture of the aborted babies. Look at the dismembered bodies. The arms and legs ripped from the tiny bodies and tell me it is right. Tell me it is just.

WishIhadknown said...

Where did I slander you? I have not said one slanderous thing about.

You say "I decide nothing" but that is a decision.

WishIhadknown said...

Tom Parker
There are two sides to an argument. I may be stirring up trouble but I am not alone. Are you going to join in or sit on the sidelines?

Anonymous said...

WishIhadknown: I agree with you and your title. If the women who had abortions had known that killing their babies was wrong after they got saved they would have never done it. There are many women who now can never have a baby because of their previous abortions. Too much emphasis on the poor. Someone likens feeding the poor to tithing. Its all OT and I can only assume that they are trying to work their way to heaven. It won't work. Its all in the blood of Jesus Christ. No other way means no other way.

the uppity Negro said...

God doesn't need your money, the church does.

As with any membership organization, the members have to give their money in order for the organization to survive.

Beyond that, if whoever compiled that video, and to the author of the blog. I would encourage you to do a bit more research about inner city megachurches. Inner city megachurches in most cities actually aren't populated by poor people, in fact they're majority middle class and higher income bracket. And Trinity is no exception. To which I say, those middle class people need to get off of their ass-ets and give.

Many of the members of the inner city megachurches have achieved a level of financial stability that they most times DON'T live in the surrounding neighborhoods and travel in from suburbs and other affluent neighborhoods to still have ties to "the 'hood." Another thing I know about Trinity is that the particular neighborhood they are located in is solidly working class, and full of single family dwellings and has historically been a working and middle class neighborhood in the city of Chicago.

Therefore, this article and this video is slanderous and misleading when it comes to the example about Trinity. Yes, it's okay to have issues with compulsory tithing, but get the literal FACTS straight about the ecclesiastical community and its infrastructure before going on a slanderous tirade just to prove a sensationalist point.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Oh how true.

The church is what needs your money, not God.

That is the whole point on tithing...pastors telling church members that they MUST give money to the church, because giving money to the church is the same as giving to God. They even go further, that the only way to give resources to God is by giving to the church. Giving to the poor or to other charities is NOT giving to God.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Uppity Negro - perhaps you are "slandering" the people of Trinity when you say they need to "get off their assets and give". Maybe they are giving, and they don't need to be insulted by you, or some wealthy pastor insulting their intelligence by stacking yams and grapefruits on a 1 foot by 1 foot table with an organ playing as food falls off the table.

Just my two cents.

Anonymous said...

wishihadknown, you appear to be deliberately being rude to someone who's being honest enough to be, well, honest.

I'm not American, but if I were, as a Christian there's no way I could vote Republican. They may say things you like to hear in regards to abortion and gay marriage, but they're a party driven almost entirely by hate and selfishness. There's no love or support for the poor. There's only support for killing, wars, corporatism hate and greed.

Do you think they *really* care about abortion or family values? not at all, they have just learned that if they bandy there terms about they're worth a decent number of votes.

I'm anti abortion, but I'd rather vote for a pro-choice, anti-war party than an anti-abortion, pro-war one.

Anonymous said...

Y'all are losing me, and no one is changing anyone's mind. We are really going nowhere.

While this does emphasize the ridiculous nature of these "tithing threats," did anyone not already know that Jeremiah Wright was a fraud?

Anonymous said...

"I'm anti abortion, but I'd rather vote for a pro-choice, anti-war party than an anti-abortion, pro-war one."

This is why I could never be a liberal. All emotion and no brains.

By the way, how many wars is America fighting right now with a very liberal president in the white house?

I believe he started a new one just a month or two ago. Should he be required to give his peace prize back?

WishIhadknown said...

When did I say anything about Democrat or Republican? Your so called “honest person” made it a Democrat-Republican issue. How am I insulting?

“I'm anti abortion, but I'd rather vote for a pro-choice, anti-war party than an anti-abortion, pro-war one.”

Uh, have you read the papers lately? Can you say Libya?

Anonymous said...

Wishy

Anonymous at April 13, 2011 6:41 PM
brought it up and you just grabbed the argument and ran with it, making all kinds of leaps beyond logic, tossing insults around and accusing people of all sorts of things. You make the Pharisees look humble and loving.

These kinds of positions are why the younger generation is fleeing the church. It is the work of Satan that you do.

WishIhadknown said...

Just like always can't fight the message, attack the messenger. Isn't that what the Pharisee's did to Jesus? You proclaim you are not judging but then turn around and declare judgment on Republicans like the Democrats are any different. Review the history of the Twentieth, to what party did the President’s belong when World War I, World War II, Korea and Vietnam started?

WishIhadknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WishIhadknown said...

“These kinds of positions are why the younger generation is fleeing the church. It is the work of Satan that you do.”

Let me get this straight, according to you just because I am an advocate for the most innocent of human life, I am an agent of Satan? You accuse me of being insulting but then you say that of me. Who’s the hypocrite here? Who is judging whom?

Arce said...

Vietnam -- we had troops there in 1956, perhaps before. In the early '50s Eisenhower's Secy of State had an opportunity for Ho Chi Minh to come to the U.S. to work out how we could help them become a democratic country and help work out a settlement with the French to stop the war between the French and the Viet Minh forces. He turned it down, told Ho Chi Minh he would arrest him and turn him over to the French if he came. That forced the Viet Minh into the hands of the Soviets for arms etc. (not the Chinese Reds, who were unwelcome in Viet Nam).

So Kennedy did not start our involvement in Viet Nam -- we were active there in support of the French and anti-democratic forces before Kennedy was elected. A friend who died some years ago was stationed in Viet Nam with U.S. forces in the late 1950s.

Anonymous said...

It is not what you advocate, but how you advocate. I think you have the point of my last post, so I will retract it. However, your approach to people will drive many away from the faith.

I oppose abortion. I also oppose making it illegal. I think we would have a greater success at reducing the number of abortions through assistance and moral suasion, coupled with widespread availability of serious education about birth control and the measures themselves being readily available.

Making it illegal would not stop it. There were hundreds of thousands of abortions in the years before Roe v. Wade, just done illegally and masked as to what they really were.

I choose not to intervene. I think it is between the woman, her doctor, and God. I happen to be more concerned about those who are born than those who are not. And there are many like me.

Anonymous said...

"I oppose abortion."

On what grounds?

Anonymous said...

"I think we would have a greater success at reducing the number of abortions through assistance and moral suasion, coupled with widespread availability of serious education about birth control and the measures themselves being readily available."

And how has that worked out over the past 30+ years?

Anonymous said...

"Making it illegal would not stop it."

By that logic, all current crimes should be made legal.

Anonymous said...

"There were hundreds of thousands of abortions in the years before Roe v. Wade"

How did you come to this conclusion?

How many are performed now that abortion is illegal?

Anonymous said...

"I choose not to intervene."

Based on what scriptural precedent?

Anonymous said...

"I think it is between the woman, her doctor, and God."

So, the father has no say?

I think God has already made his position clear.

Anonymous said...

"I happen to be more concerned about those who are born than those who are not."

Very compassionate statement as long as you are not among the aborted.

Anonymous said...

"And there are many like me."

Yep, you are the type of pro-life person that the pro-choice people love. Helps to explain how this modern day Holocaust has been going on for so long and how so many millions have died in a Christian nation.

WishIhadknown said...

The real Vietnam War did not start until the Bay of Tonkin resolution before that there were only military advisers there, as there were in hundreds of places around the world. To what party did the President belong when the Bay of Tonkin resolution passed?

Anonymous said...

All I see from you is attack, attack, attack. No wonder your position is so unpopular with many in this country. You drive away people you might win to your side.

WishIhadknown said...

"And there are many like me."

And there are many like me.

Arce said...

Wishi

Now I understand why you did not know. Willful ignorance. The bombing of N. Vietnam did not start until after the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. However, we had thousands of troops there before that, propping up our hand=picked dictator, after we helped to scuttle democratic elections that Ho Chi Minh, the G. Washington of his country, would have won. We had been bombing and doing aerial interdiction in S. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etc., before the Tonkin incident.

WishIhadknown said...

Again don't like the message attack the messenger.

WishIhadknown said...

You really have missed the point haven’t you? People call the Democrat party the peace party but a review of recent history shows they are not they much different than the Republican party.

Tom Parker said...

Wishy:

You are surely doing a heck of a job of hijacking this blog.

You're just looking for a fight.

The current topic is the tithe.

WishIhadknown said...

Strange, other people make statements to which I respond but I am the one that’s insulting and hijacking the blog. Are you going to post something on the tithe or just object to what I post.

Tom Parker said...

Wishy:

If you will look back through the blog comments I have already posted about tithing several times. I will apologize as I just reviewed the comments and you were not the first to bring up abortion.

Anonymous said...

I suppose some could call Wishy a troll, but I think that would not be fair to trolls.

Anonymous said...

Rick Warren reverse tithes!

He gives 90% and lives off 10%!

When we start giving like that, our World will come to Christ.

Jesus said "Where their treasure is, there the heart is also".

Do YOU reverse tithe????

Rick Warren has done more to further the Kingdom of God since the Apostle Paul.

Tom Parker said...

Any Mouse:

You said:"When we start giving like that, our World will come to Christ."

Surely you do not believe the above statement?

Anonymous said...

He's a TROLL Tom.

Don't give him the attention he craves.

Anonymous said...

I am sick and tired of people complaining about Tithing!!

You people disgust me!!

You are stingy, hateful, mean, and contrary to the message of Jesus!

Why do you idiots think we give?

It is to help those who are hurting and give hope to the hopeless.

You losers make God sick at His stomach and you are giving me a migrane.

FBC Choir Member said...

I'm a pro-life Democrat and I want to impose my anti-abortion views on all women in America by force of law.

With that said, I love it when the wingnuts go off about how Democrats kill babies, etc. It shows their hypocrisy when they talk the pro-life talk and then oppose things like single-payer healthcare which would save lives.

I'm a bit of an oddball in the Democratic Party. As a social democrat, I'm on the left wing of the party on economic matters, but on social issues I tend to be fairly conservative.

WishIhadknown said...

Tithing and giving are not the same thing. Tithing is trying to meet the requirements of the Law and man that even the Israelites did not do. Freewill giving is Spirit guided and is done in faith.
If you are trying to reach the hurting and the hopeless then many churches are probably the last place to give your money because they just do not do a very good job of it. How do you tell? It’s something I like to call enough.
If your church looks more like a sports complex than a church, then your church probably has enough.
If your preacher is a big game hunter and has the church pay to mount his trophies then your church has enough.
If your preacher belongs to a country club then your church has enough.
If your preacher is always driving a new Cadillac Escalade then you church has enough.
If your preacher is flying around in a private jet then your church probably has enough.

WishIhadknown said...

FBC Choir Member
Neither party has a monopoly on stupidity and please do not misunderstand my posts as insinuating “Democrats kill babies.”
The biggest problem with the single payer healthcare system is it results in an unfair allocation of resources. My 82 year old mother is already experiencing it with Medicare. There are just certain measures Medicare will not authorize once a person reaches a certain age or as my mother puts it, “everyone just wants you to go on and get out of the way.”
Personally, I have always favored the Chinese system where the Doctor gets paid as long as you are healthy.
I am not sure what the answer is and unfortunately we seem incapable to have a civil discourse and work out a solution.

Anonymous said...

For all of you who realize tithing is strictly Ot check out Coach Dave at www.ptsalt.com. Coach Dave is the football coach that lived in Ohio that the ACLU got after for praying with his football players before the games back in 1999. He has a great outline on 4.14.11 regarding false teaching of todays pastors of tithing. He is a great leader and tells it like it is. You will really enjoy his messages.ptsalt stands for pass the salt and boy do we need salt in this old world today!!

Anonymous said...

Watchdog some of our comments are not getting through. Please remove the obstacle. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

WD-
Off topic but go to this link http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=35052 very interesting as to why the SBC is in the condition it is in. I know from experience exactly what Brad Whitt is talking about!

And then if you haven't already been to it Peter Lumpkins has a great post on his blog regarding the Annie Armstrong offering here http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2011/04/do-you-believe-in-the-annie-armstrong-easter-offering-by-peter-lumpkins-1.html

Sorry I am not a computer savvy person and cant just but the link up where all you have to do is click on it and it takes you right to it.
But I think you will find some interesting things and reasons as to why we are drying up! And I am sad about it.
Kyle

Anonymous said...

Rick Warren reverse tithes!

He gives 90% and lives off 10%!

When we start giving like that, our World will come to Christ.

Jesus said "Where their treasure is, there the heart is also".

Do YOU reverse tithe????

Rick Warren has done more to further the Kingdom of God since the Apostle Paul.

April 14, 2011 2:04 PM

To give you an example of what it means when Warren reverse tithes...about 5 years ago, PDL, his org, was in financial trouble. he had 3 mill sitting around in cash to infuse in it. His 10% he keeps is like a mill a year. I am MORE impressed with Bill Gates giving to secular causes.

Anonymous said...

" after we helped to scuttle democratic elections that Ho Chi Minh, the G. Washington of his country, would have won. "

Oh my. Ho Chi Minh is being compared to Washington. That is like saying Hamas and democratic elections.

Hilter was democratically voted into the Bundestag.

Anonymous said...

He was like GW in that he won their war of independence against the French at great risk to himself. Put all of his resources into that. And as the military leader that won the independence from the colonial power, he would have been elected president of the country. Until the U.S. intervened. We were afraid of the communists, but did not understand that the Vietnamese had been subjugated by the Chinese in a brutal rule for centuries, and the enmity against the Chinese was deep. It could have been exploited by US to make Vietnam an ally, not an enemy.

Eisenhower's government blew the opportunity. And we had boots on the ground there prior to the French debacle, increased them after they left, and helped to engineer the split of the country by derailing the planned elections.

Anonymous said...

WishIhadknown said...
Tithing and giving are not the same thing. Tithing is trying to meet the requirements of the Law and man that even the Israelites did not do.

wishIhadknown, some people do not have a thinking cap. They are caugnt in a system I call decptive slavery. Thank god for people like you who know the truth. People will wake up but it is not an over night task espically when their minds have dammaged by the social media of FBC Jax and other instutions. They have on remorse for the needy in spirit.

Anonymous said...

You have turned the tithe into your own personal vendetta against God.

You don't want to give God your money so therefore you make excuses about why God does not deserve your cash.

Who gave you the right to determine what God said?

Our Pastors are there to instruct us and Dr. Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley and Billy Graham are all tithers.

Satan does not tithe
Donald Trump does not tithe
Obama does not tithe

You choose....who would you follow?

Anonymous said...

Satan does not tithe
Donald Trump does not tithe
Obama does not tithe


How do you know, are the devil.
Do you see everything that goes on.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=844493245933202727#

Anonymous said...

any mouse - village idiot

Anonymous said...

FBC Choir Member said...

I'm a pro-life Democrat and I want to impose my anti-abortion views on all women in America by force of law.

Ahhh, the folly of youth. Your views can never be imposed on women. Won't happen--ever!! Pandora is out of the box and cannot be put back in.

Anonymous said...

FBC Choir Member said...

I'm a pro-life Democrat and I want to impose my anti-abortion views on all women in America by force of law.

Do you also stand with the Demo Party regardiing homosexuality? Why would you sing in the choir and proclaim your allegiance to a partyy that promotes the homo agenda?

Really, how do you intellectually ascend to that?

Garlando

Anonymous said...

Strange then that FBC Choir member votes to have his/her tax dollars fund abortion not only here but in Third World countries.

So, you are willing to pay for abortions now?

How is that Obama vote working out for ya?

Anonymous said...

"Our Pastors are there to instruct us and Dr. Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley and Billy Graham are all tithers."

Perhaps you even know the name of the local church Billy Graham tithed to?

Kind of ironic since at least two of them made quite a nice living off teaching a tithe for the NC.

Anonymous said...

How do you know that Obama did not tithe under Jeremiah Wright? Wright taught the tithe.

Anonymous said...

I think the brainless troll here spouting ridiculous sentences is great!

This troll only proves how shallow and unlearned are those who follow guys like Mac. They are little sycophants.

What an advertisement to run as fast as you can from the temples of entertainment.

Anonymous said...

I have figured out how to get more "blessings". I am going to stop paying my mortgage, my car payment, medical bills, credit cards, reduce eating to bare sustenance (I need to loose weight anyway), reduce any other expense, I will just demand things free... and will tithe all of this money to receive more blessings. Except gas for my car as long as I have it. I must buy gas so I can get to my job in order to tithe more money from my salary.
When the bill collectors come and the mortgage co., forecloses on my house. Then I can live in my car until that is repossessed. Then I will send all collectors to the preacher and he can explain how I have been blessed and so will they if they 1) let me alone 2) start to give all their money also.
Serious point being....Do these greedy preachers who live like kings BTW, not understand PEOPLE HAVE NO MONEY. It's called taxes and inflation. I would suggest these "kings" get a real job like the rest of us instead of demanding we pay them for "nothing" (except their lavish lifestyle) while they misuse the scripture to demand money, while trying to say God demands it or else!!!! It may be true that preachers are first cousins to politicians! Get a job!

Anonymous said...

Some Comic Relief

Pearls Before Swine

Anonymous said...

I hate the Tithe.

I hate those that Tithe their money

I hate to see Christians giving to missions and to their Churches, it stinks like sulphur.

I stand totally against anybody that gives the tithe and I will do all in my power to keep people bitter and mad at their Pastor.

Thanks for listening!

THIS BLOG IS AWESOME!

Sincerely,
Satan

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:54 said it all!

It smells like smoke on this Blog

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"Anon 3:54 said it all!

It smells like smoke on this Blog
April 16, 2011 4:20 PM"



And the Kool Aid Drinkers are here to put the fire out.

Anonymous said...

I see Tom has found his new drum to beat on all the time - tithing.

Anonymous said...

The Kool Aid drinkers cannot take it. They ignore truth and just like following a man. Then later when they realize they were wrong they are the first to say I knew it was wrong but I just wanted there to be peace on earth. Good luck!!! The only peace one has is in following the man Christ Jesus and the freedom He provides through His Word not someone who lords it over the congregation that the tithe is the Lords!!!

WishIhadknown said...

Perhaps a little perspective will help.
US Troop Levels in Vietnam by year:
1959 760
1960 900
1961 3,025
1962 11,300
1963 16,300
1964 23,300
1965 184,300
1966 385,300
1967 485,600
1968 536,100
1969 475,200
1970 334,600
1971 156,800
1972 24,200
1973 50