"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Sunday, August 14, 2011

Christian, You are Free from the Duty to Tithe, and Free to Give as the Holy Spirit Leads You



"I do not believe there is a duty to the tithe. Here is what I believe: I believe God prospers you and blesses you according to His graces and His gifts which he gives to you freely and without measure. That everything you have is His and you should be sensitive to the leadership of the Holy Spirit and you should give as the Holy Spirit prompts you in response to your love for the fact that you've been set free from the duty to give."
------------------------------
In this final clip from Wade Burleson's January 2, 2011 sermon on Jesus being our Jubilee, Wade uses the "tithe" as an example of the freedom we have through Christ. As Wade says, we are not duty-bound to give some prescribed amount to church. We are free from this duty, Christ has set us free in the New Covenant!

It is so simple, and so clear from scripture, that Wade is speaking the truth.

But for most of you reading this, you've never heard a preacher ever say this from the pulpit. You've heard storehouse tithing preachers tell you that 10% is the starting point, that you're sinning if you don't give, that you're a "taker" if you don't tithe, that you need to "man up" and tithe. Some of you have even heard your preacher tell you to stay home, quit wasting God's time if you don't "bring the tithe". Some of you have had to endure your preacher calling you a thief, even threatening you with financial calamity because "God collects" on what you owe him.

Why? Why is the clear teaching from scripture hardly ever taught, and why do so many preachers use tactics of guilt and shame and legalism to coerce people to fork over more money to their church?

Well, perhaps preachers who preach the storehouse tithing doctrine are sincere and actually believe it.

But I think deep down most preachers who preach this storehouse tithing doctrine don't truly believe that any Christian who does not give 10% is sinning. I don't think they could pass a polygraph test on this. I believe deep down they know they do it because they are afraid of the financial consequences at their church if they don't teach it. They know it is a tradition, not a biblical doctrine, but they believe they are right to teach it because it raises necessary funds to further the gospel.

But what about the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God?

Today we hear much about the "Sovereignty of God" in all things under heaven and earth. Preachers tell us God is sovereign in our lives, our families, in our country, and in our churches. God is sovereign even in who does and does not accept Christ, we're told. But when it comes to finances in the church, the Sovereignty doctrine goes out the window. Nope, God is not in control over THAT. The preacher becomes the Holy Spirit, and misuses scripture to beat and guilt the sheep to give more and more of their money.

Thank God for preachers like Wade - they communicate financial needs, and leave the results to God. God is sovereign in the finances of the church. As Wade says, if the people give the money that is great. If they don't, that is great too because that means God is telling them something different. But as Wade reports in the video, his church has met all of their financial needs simply trusting God's people to follow the Holy Spirit.

How sad that if the storehouse tithing preachers don't get enough cold hard cash, it can't be God's will - it has to be the deadbeat, stingy "giving units" who are not tithing and are thwarting the will of God.

When if they would preach the truth of people's freedom to give as the Spirit leads - I believe the revenue of their church would actually go up. People are tired of being brow-beaten, and how refreshing would it be to hear a mega church pastor preach the truth.

Note: If you want to see Wade's sermon in its entirety, go to his church's website here, click on the "Watch Live" button in the upper right hand corner, register for a login account, then go to his January 2, 2011 sermon entitled "Your Year of Jubilee".

------------------------
Previous Posts:

Part 1: "Christian, Jesus is Your Jubilee, and You Can Rest" - July 21, 2011
Part 2: "Christian, You have Been Released from Servitude to God" - July 27, 2011
Part 3: "Christian, You are Free, a Willing Bondslave" - August 2, 2011

67 comments:

Thy Peace said...

Amen. As Wade says, "Most churches have lost the concept of Jubilee".

Curt said...

That, my friend, is wonderful preaching! I went back and listened to the entire message and was incredibly blessed.

Anonymous said...

If you are saved,you won't have a problem giving. Titheing in the Old Testament was taught. Why would anyone think that 10% is too much to give.
When I first heard about tithing, I was not makeing a lot of money, it did not seem possible for me to tithe. After some time researching the scriptures I decided that I could not afford not to tithe. Who would not want God's blessings? In those early days people would say you can't tithe because you don't have enough money. Then came the time when they were making a lot of money and they said that tithing now was way too much money to give.
Giving is a heart matter.

Who you tithe to is the real issue here. Beware of false preachers!

FB

James said...

While I really like this blog, I just do not understand why people here are so "negative" about tithing.

I understand about the mega pastors preaching gloom and doom if you do not tithe, but I do not understand any of the other issues with tithing. Is it that you do not want to give your money to the church or do you want to give your money to other causes or what? Seriously, not trying to be confrontational. I am just trying to figure out what is wrong with tithing?

Debbie Kaufman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Debbie Kaufman said...

I am going to interject this. If you have a sermon that beats you up, calls you names such as robbers, thieves, robbing from God etc. That is a false sermon and you should run from it as fast as you can.

We are God's children, he is not about to call us names. When he sees us he sees Christ and we are precious to him. We have the ability to call God daddy, to approach the throne directly, to cry, to be honest with God, to crawl up on his lap and have him put his arms around us. This was something not available to all in the Old Testament. They had to go through a list of rituals, and then through a High Priest to get to God. So if you want to appeal to the OT for the Covenant, you have to do this too. It's unnecessary because of Christ and his life, death, burial and resurrection. To go back to the Old Covenant is to do as the Jews did in Paul's day when they were stuck in the Old Testament and Paul was telling them a whole new message of Grace, love and freedom. They didn't get it either.

Anonymous said...

I love the third comment, "if you are saved..."

Yes, and also if you are saved you have enough discernment to know when some money-hungry preacher is out for your wallet.

What Wade is saying in the sermon is so true. He doesn't need a huge building or fancy surroundings to preach the gospel. What a wonderful thing, even though the same Kool-aid drinkers come on here again and again in support of the tithing prosperity gospel.

You're preaching in the wrong place. I think most of the readers here are over it.

Go back to your own church and start a class or better yet a "group" on some made-up topic so you can browbeat and scare people with curses over tithing and make them never want to go to church again.

That's what you people do best.

Bro./Patsor Rod H. said...

No New testament writer preached any sermon or wrote anything about New Testament believers being obligated to a any of the three Old Testament tithes.

NONE!!!

If its not preached at all as an obligation in the New Testament.

Then don't preach/teach it!!!

Anonymous said...

I appreciate the fact that at least one overseer of Christ's sheep is teaching sound doctrine.
He is certainly in the minority. People love their "sacred cow" traditions.

The letter to the Galatians needs to be read, studied, and seared into hearts and minds.

Teaching storehouse tithing demonstrates, at a minimum, a misunderstanding of the relationship of the Old (Mosaic) Covenant to the New Covenant disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ came to set the captives free, but mere men want to lead them back into slavery.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage
Gal 5:1 (KJV)

Anonymous said...

'"I do not believe there is a duty to the tithe. Here is what I believe: '

At least he is being honest with what he believes instead of what the bible says. Think about it. If the bible said what Wade states, wouldn't it be best if he at least said, the bible says__________ .

I do appreciate Wade stating his message is his beliefs instead of the bible says. It does keep things neatly separated.

Thy Peace said...

One can follow Wade's reasoning why Tithing is not biblical in the new covenant. Please follow Wade's blog posts from this comment link.

Also this post.

WishIhadknown said...

James, we are not negative about tithing or, as we say in this century, giving 10%. It’s the way giving 10% is preached that is wrong.

It is an odd contradiction that the same preachers who Sunday after Sunday get up and proclaim that they believing in teaching the Bible as literally true then twist scripture to mean something that it does not teach.

We are not against giving, we are all for giving. I can even respect a pastor who gets up on Sunday morning and says, “As Pastor, I expect the members to give at least 10% of their income to the church.”

Just don’t stand up and tell the church, “You are cursed by God” because you are not. I sincerely doubt there are many parents here who tell their children, “I curse you because you did not give me enough of the income I gave you.”

We are a people of blessings not curses. We are a people of freedom living above the law; not a people trying to obey the minute requirements of a law that not one of us can obey anyway.

We are called to give freely and abundantly without regard to what others give or don’t give and without regard to some promised reward for our alleged obedience.

Seneca Griggs said...

Well Wade certainly disagrees with the late Homer Lindsay Jr. at FBXJax. W.D., isn't Homer one of your heroes?

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic: Wade Burleson > At That Time Michael ... Shall Arise: The Basis for Your Trust of the Gospel

Anonymous said...

"Well Wade certainly disagrees with the late Homer Lindsay Jr. at FBXJax. W.D., isn't Homer one of your heroes?"

Sorry but scripture trumps a mega-church preacher. 2 Corinthians 9:7.

Anonymous said...

I agree that giving would go up.

Someone who can afford to give $20 a week would do it instead of giving nothing. What difference does $20 a week matter if you're being cursed anyway if it's not 10 percent. Why give anything?

Dee said...

Tom

My husband and I give a certain portion of our income, more now than we did when we were poor and barely surviving. However, I do not believe in a legalistic amount. I think it was Stuart Briscoe, when asked about how much we should give, quipped, "For most people , probably a little bit more." No amounts or percentages.

One thing to take into consideration now, as opposed to the long ago past is this. Back in those days, there were no social programs to support the poor, the widows, the disabled. These folks frequently starved to death and were homeless. The church took care of these folks in their churches, providing for them in practical ways. The churches were know for their support of one another.
Today our government takes a large chunk of our income for entitlement programs to care for the homeless, etc.

Today, in some churches, the money goes to supporting the exorbitant salaries of fat cat preachers like Ed Young Jr. Why should a person who is living hand to mouth tithe to support the new gourmet coffee bar?

Tom Parker said...

What would be wrong with allowing the Holy Spirit to guide my giving?

Anonymous said...

Wow! If Wade says we are free from the tithe then what more needs to be said since he's an expert on all things spiritual and Biblical.

Anonymous said...

'What would be wrong with allowing the Holy Spirit to guide my giving?'

How does one determine if what they give is of the Spirit? Maybe one way is to discover if what we give exalts the name of Christ, helps reach people for Christ and equips the Christians to be more Christ like.

The whining about salaries (not from you here Tom) needs to stop. It comes across as being jealous that the preacher makes more than you. Just sounds sad.

Bea said...

"Wow! If Wade says we are free from the tithe then what more needs to be said since he's an expert on all things spiritual and Biblical."

<a href="http://www.wadeburleson.org/2011/08/at-that-time-michael-shall-arise-basis.html>Michael ... Shall Arise: The Basis for Your Trust of the Gospel</a>

As my granddad used to say, anonymous, "Put that in your pipe and smoke it."

Johnny D. said...

"Wow! If Wade says we are free from the tithe then what more needs to be said since he's an expert on all things spiritual and Biblical."

What a strange thing to say. Instead of making a veiled ad-hominen attack, why don't you lay our your case for tithing?

Wade, thank you for understanding and communicating God's grace.

Anonymous said...

Let me explain it another way, "Just because Wade says something is true doesn't make it so."

There are more than plenty of great Biblical scholars who agree that tithing is Biblical so I would be hesitant to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because some Oklahoma preacher says it ain't so. If you want those other opinions, just Google tithing and they will appear for your in-depth study.

Debbie Kaufman said...

This has nothing to do with what preacher or Bible scholar says what, but what does scripture say. Scripture is the final authority and all you need to do is check it out for yourself and see if what Wade is saying isn't so. But just like the gospel not everyone is going to be able to see it or embrace it. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in just as He comes into giving.

Anonymous said...

There is a serious problem with what Wade said. That is....it is not being shouted from the housetops across our Southern Baptist Convention. I am an SBC pastor of 40 years and I thank God for the visionary leadership of Wade. If you want to give ten percent, that is fine. You may want to give fifty percent, but no one should be told to give a mandatory tithe or you are robbing God and cursed.He's right, trust God and if the money does not come in, listen to what God is saying about a new direction.BTW, I am not a mega church pastor and receive only $1,400.00 a month for a part-time pastorate.

Thy Peace said...

One very interesting aspect of Emmanuel - Enid is that during the offering, they encourage anyone who has a need to take up to $20- (only cash, but to leave the checks) from the offering plate. And if they need more to come and see the pastors and that they would be helped.

Anonymous said...

They've been doing that ever since Wade became their pastor. I was curious because our church was looking at different ways to receive the offering. I emailed Emmanuel and asked if anybody ever took them up on invitation to take money from the plate and I was sent a copy of a letter that a college student wrote to the church thanking them for allowing her to take money. She drove to Enid from Stillwater Oklahoma every week to care for her dying grandfather, attended one of the services on Sunday, and took money from the plate to pay for her gas. Her letter was very moving.

Anonymous said...

Matt 23:23 Jesus said

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye to have done, AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.

Isn't the other, tithe, to be done?
That is pretty clear to me. So only the scribes and Pharasees need to continue to tithe? I don't think so. Am I not right thinking the Lord was saying to do all of these, pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin and do the weightier matters , judgment,mercy, and faith?

Enlighten me!

FB

Bill said...

FB,

You ask to be enlightened on why Jesus spoke positively about the tithein Mattew 23:23.

Jesus words were directed to Pharisees who lived under the old covenant”. Jesus also “commended offering sacrifices in the temple" to the Pharisees IN THE SAME TEXT (Matthew 5:23-24).

Are you desiring to take your bulls and goats to church next Sunday and offer them on the altar too--along with your tithe?

Or will you believe the Old Covenant system of Hebrew worship has been abolished in the New Covenant?

Anonymous said...

Matt. 23:23

Bill, judgement, mercy, and faith may have been in the OT law, but that doesn't mean they are not in the NT Covenant. Are you suggesting that only part of Jesus's words are to be believed?

Anonymous said...

While we are on the TITHE, ad nauseam, were in the NT did Jesus say THE TITHE SHALL NOT BE GIVEN ANYMORE? Where?

Bill said...

While we are on the topic of Old Covenant laws "WHERE DID JESUS EVERY SAY, EVEN ONCE, THAT YOU WERE NO LONGER TO CELBRATE THE FEASTS OF ISRAEL, THE MORNING SACRIFICES, AND ALL THE CEREMONIAL LAWS OF ISRAEL?"

Where?

Anonymous said...

"and receive only $1,400.00 a month for a part-time pastorate."

Let's see. If part time means you preach two services on Sunday, about a hour per service, and one on Wednesday, same amount of time. Boy I sure would like a part time job that pays me $500/hour. Where do I sign up in my little town that is on the skids.

Anonymous said...

Bill said...

"While we are on the topic of Old Covenant laws "WHERE DID JESUS EVERY SAY, EVEN ONCE, THAT YOU WERE NO LONGER TO CELBRATE THE FEASTS OF ISRAEL, THE MORNING SACRIFICES, AND ALL THE CEREMONIAL LAWS OF ISRAEL?"

Where?"


Since there are no video recordings, we really can be sure when and where he said it, but just keep the faith and all will be well.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
I was explaining what I made at the church to demonstrate the fact that I was not making an exorberent salary. Your understanding of the pastorate is most naive and unfortunate.

Junkster said...

The notion that God requires all members of a church to give 10% of their income to the church (or to anyone or anything else) is not only not taught in the Bible, it is an inherently unjust concept.

Even our corrupt, secular government recognizes the inequity of demanding the same percentage of income from the poor and the wealthy. Thus we have a graduated tax system that requires a lesser percent from those who have little than is required from those who have more.

It's obvious that it's a far greater burden for someone who makes $20,000 a year to contribute $2,000 than it is for someone who makes $20 million a year to contribute $2 million.

I have known very wealthy people who feel they have done their duty to God financially by contributing 10% of their income to church when they easily could (and probably should) be far more generous.

And I have known poor people who ought to be receiving assistance from their church who are made to feel guilty because they have to choose between giving 10% of whatever income they might have to the church and making sure their family's basic needs are taken care of.

This sort of teaching is absurdly immoral, and any attempt to justify it is no different from those who Jesus criticized for claiming to follow the letter of God's law but missed the spirit of it because their hearts were hard and far from God.

It is a simple as this -- giving 10% of your income to a church is not required by God, and anyone who says otherwise is lying to you, either deliberately or out of ignorance of the truth.

Anonymous said...

I am just trying to figure out what is wrong with tithing?

August 15, 2011 1:13 AM

You do not need the Holy Spirit to guide your giving with a "tithe". You just give the 10% (even though OT tithe is about 23%)

It is limiting. It is teaching a "law" where the Holy Spirit is more radical.


It is none of my business how much you give. That is between you and the Holy Spirit. Too bad more pastors don't understand this.

WishIhadknown said...

Here's a thought why not try reading Matt 23:23 in context.
If you get tithing out of that whole section of scripture then you are as out of touch as the people Jesus is rebuking.

Anonymous said...

"How does one determine if what they give is of the Spirit? Maybe one way is to discover if what we give exalts the name of Christ, helps reach people for Christ and equips the Christians to be more Christ like."

It exhalts the Name of Christ when you help a single mom fix her car to get to work because she is struggling.

You seem to think God only likes the big showy things. Typical mega church thinking.

Anonymous said...

It does not exhalt the Name of Christ when your pastor makes a ton of money and expects those struggling to pay his high salary. That mocks God.

Anonymous said...

"Even our corrupt, secular government recognizes the inequity of demanding the same percentage of income from the poor and the wealthy. Thus we have a graduated tax system that requires a lesser percent from those who have little than is required from those who have more."

yes. And part of the OC tithe system was a tithe for the poor among them who did not tithe because they had no crops or animals to tithe.

If only they carried that part over....instead they teach the poor to tithe to help pay their high salary at the mega church!

And they forget God was chastizing the PRIESTS in Malichai for being so greedy.

Anonymous said...

While we are on the topic of Old Covenant laws "WHERE DID JESUS EVERY SAY, EVEN ONCE, THAT YOU WERE NO LONGER TO CELBRATE THE FEASTS OF ISRAEL, THE MORNING SACRIFICES, AND ALL THE CEREMONIAL LAWS OF ISRAEL?"

Where?

August 15, 2011 6:32 PM

YOur first clue is here about the Law being fulfilled: (there are more)

Matt 5: 17-18 (Jesus Himself "fulfilled the Law becaue He kept it perfectly. He talks about the "new covenant" at the Last Supper"

Col 2:

14 He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross. 15 He took away the weapons of the powers and authorities. He made a public show of them. He won the battle over them by dying on the cross.

16 So don't let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don't let anyone judge you about holy days. I'm talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days. 17 They are only a shadow of the things that were going to come. But what is real is found in Christ.

Anonymous said...

@Junkster,

I tried to point this out to my "pastor" in a private meeting a few months ago. I was only treated with contempt and disdain, and was told I was being "cut loose."

These men have a "religious" mindset that enables them to perpetuate false teachings, such as "storehouse tithing," that are a flat out denial of the Gospel of Christ.

It is sad when seminary trained men do not know how the Bible works.

Hint: everything is for our learning, but not everything directly applies.

Tom Parker said...

Anon:

You said:"It is sad when seminary trained men do not know how the Bible works."

Thank the CR for that. These men are the rulers of their kingdoms.

Anonymous said...

I imagine that the majority of you who agree with Wade never tithed in the first place and now you have a preacher that supports your view. And why is it that you always manage to turn a discussion of tithing into your personal views of how much a preacher should or shouldn't make. If you don't like your pastors salary then get on the Personnel or Budget committee and do something about it instead of bad mouthing him all over the universe.

Anonymous said...

Wade Burleson said ...
"I believe God prospers you and blesses you according to His graces and His gifts which he gives to you freely and without measure."

Apparently this means there are No Poor Christians such as in Africa or any other poor country around the world (what was it? "without measure?" to Christians)

The only reason the United States has prospered for so long is the ability of Government to print and borrow. That Day is soon to End and then we will see how these churches survive saying "God Prosper You" because we are a broke country.


So we'll see how all that Hope and Preaching (as other would say: Change) is working....

Sharon said...

Junkster,
Amen! to your comments. Our government can see how the poor should pay a smaller percentage in taxes, but preachers who demand the tithe from everybody no matter what their income CAN'T see it?

That does make them look like Pharisees who just focus on the letter of the law without any overall understanding of "what we're trying to accomplish here."

Your comments made it very clear how the tithe is a burden to some and more like a tip for others. Why can't a preacher just say, "Give as you are able."

The other huge part is what gets done with the money that is given. Does it matter what gets done with it? Are we to cheerfully give to a wealthy pastor? Why? I think Christians should give to something that matters, that truly helps somebody somewhere. What good is being done if the money allows pastors and other church staff to go on fancier vacations?

The more I think about it, the more immoral it becomes. What if you have a job as a construction worker and your wife works as a waitress. The preacher, who has lots more money, education, social and political connections, etc. is demanding your money. That is immoral. Of course they don't say "give your money to me." They say it's for "the cause of Christ,", "winning souls," "reaching the lost for Christ." What the heck do those phrases even mean? They are awfully vague and can mean anything. Besides if the preacher was all that worried about the lost, he'd make sacrifices himself. He wouldn't be touring "the Holy Land," he'd be in the rotten places of the world trying to help somebody.

It's a racket.

Anonymous said...

Wade Burleson said ...
"I believe God prospers you and blesses you according to His graces and His gifts which he gives to you freely and without measure."

Apparently this means there are No Poor Christians such as in Africa or any other poor country around the world (what was it? "without measure?" to Christians)""

Yeah, I disagree with this sort of thinking, too. It simply does not line up with what we see played out in the Word.

It actually sounds very Joel Osteenish. It sounds like Mac, too.

According to this logic then God is purposely blessing George Soros. Or Warren Buffet. Neither one are believers. (Buffet has a long time live in partner)

Yet, God "blessed" Lottie Moon who starved to death in China.

Teaching a "tithe" for the New Covenant is wrong. But so is teaching a caste system of God's blessing of material wealth for some "special Christians".

I think Wade may be confusing "spiritual abundance" for material blessing.

Bill said...

Anonymous (9:03 am)

It's obvious to me that you have not, as have I, listened to the entire message. Your conclusion is really off base.

The ENTIRE message was about the graces and gifts of God to us IN OUR JUBILEE JESUS CHRIST. The gifts and graces referred to in the message is the "spiritual abundance" to which you refer. The point is, you give according to your means, in response to the goodness of God to your in your Jubilee.

iampastorswife.com said...

Good for Wade! It is nice to finally read that some pastors and ministries are stepping up and speaking out about the "doctrine" of tithing or prosperity; that's really what it is all about, the prosperity of the church or church leadership, I should say. There is absolutely nothing wrong with tithing, if that's what you want to call your giving, but please recognize the Old Testament tithe teachings were for the Levitical priests.

Jesus became our New Covenant and overcame OT law so that we are no longer bound to it; I recently wrote a blog about this, so I will stop here. I totally agree with Pastor Wade , and applaud his leading his church into the truth of the word.

Thy Peace said...

iampastorswife > Tithe or Be Ye Cursed!

Anonymous said...

The reason that most baptist preachers teach that an OT law is still in effect today is because they don't have faith that the people will give otherwise.

Wade has shown that the fear is unfounded.

So, Baptist preachers, you are free to preach what the Bible teaches about giving in the NT now.

Telling people that they are free to give as the Holy Spirit directs is just as effective (perhaps more) than calling them thieves.

Anonymous said...

From Les' blog:

The problem with the SBC is...In no particular order:

1. Preachers who reject that the Old Testament moral law is still valid today.
2. Preachers and Seminary professors who teach that the biblical principle of storehouse tithing is not valid today.
3. Churches who hold no one accountable for their actions.
4. Seminaries who are churning out Calvinist pastors who have no place to go in today's SBC churches.
5. SBC leaders who promote planting new churches as an evangelism strategy when it is really for the purpose of providing places for Calvinist pastors to work.
6. The devaluing of SBC state conventions and local associations.
7. Seminary trustees who will not stand up against Seminary presidents who are promoting Calvinism.
8. Pastors who preach that the use of beverage alcohol is acceptable in moderation for the Christian.
9. Seminary trustees who defer to the Seminary president instead of providing biblical oversight.
10. The withdrawal of Christians from society instead of being salt and light.

Anonymous said...

1. Preachers who reject that the Old Testament moral law is still valid today.

You mean like Jesus?

2. Preachers and Seminary professors who teach that the biblical principle of storehouse tithing is not valid today.

You mean like Paul?

3. Churches who hold no one accountable for their actions.

How about churches that don't hold the pastor accountable?

4. Seminaries who are churning out Calvinist pastors who have no place to go in today's SBC churches.

Weren't you a Calvinist pastor at one point?

5. SBC leaders who promote planting new churches as an evangelism strategy when it is really for the purpose of providing places for Calvinist pastors to work.

Yes, Calvinist pastors shouldn't have a place to work.

6. The devaluing of SBC state conventions and local associations.

Almost as bad as the dollar.

7. Seminary trustees who will not stand up against Seminary presidents who are promoting Calvinism.

Weren't you a Calvinist at one point?

8. Pastors who preach that the use of beverage alcohol is acceptable in moderation for the Christian.

You mean like Paul?

9. Seminary trustees who defer to the Seminary president instead of providing biblical oversight.

Who does the Seminary president think he is?

10. The withdrawal of Christians from society instead of being salt and light.

Does that include acting in R rated movies?

Anonymous said...

Ok, I'll have a go:

1. Preachers who reject that the Old Testament moral law is still valid today.

Jesus fulfilled the law. He sent us the Holy Spirit convict us of our sin. I suppose Les thinks the law (outward appearance) is better than inward conviction.

2. Preachers and Seminary professors who teach that the biblical principle of storehouse tithing is not valid today.

You mean like Paul? (Good one)But I will remind Les that Jesus told Peter: The sons are free.

3. Churches who hold no one accountable for their actions.

How about churches that don't hold the pastor accountable? EXACTLY!

4. Seminaries who are churning out Calvinist pastors who have no place to go in today's SBC churches.

Weren't you a Calvinist pastor at one point? And I will add that some of them might be going to SGM churches since Mohler has backed the Mahaney scandal.

5. SBC leaders who promote planting new churches as an evangelism strategy when it is really for the purpose of providing places for Calvinist pastors to work.

The SBC has no business supporting Acts 29. That I agree with. Ezell? Are you listening? We do not like the vulgar Driscoll and do not want more Driscoll churches in the SBC!

6. The devaluing of SBC state conventions and local associations.

The local church does not have to allow this! Stop following the leaders and be a church. In any event, some state assoc are as corrupt as the SBC.

7. Seminary trustees who will not stand up against Seminary presidents who are promoting Calvinism.

Many of them do not know what Calvinism is! The trustees are mainly sycophants of the leader and rubber stamp everything.

8. Pastors who preach that the use of beverage alcohol is acceptable in moderation for the Christian.

You mean like Paul? (Good one!)

9. Seminary trustees who defer to the Seminary president instead of providing biblical oversight.

Most trustees are so enamoured of being around the celebrity, they cannot think straight.

10. The withdrawal of Christians from society instead of being salt and light.

Pastors need to get real jobs. They cannot preach salt and light when they are isolated in their bubble. Let them go to work and report to a gay boss before they tell us how to live in the real world.

Same with Mohler and all the other celebs who tell us how to live. Mohler says get married young and have lots of kids. Have HIS kids done this? No. Mohler only had 2 kids.

they are all about do as I say not as I do. their own rules never apply to them. Just look at what CJ Mahaney is doing right now! Which Mohler totally supports!

Tikatu said...

Anonymous said...
"and receive only $1,400.00 a month for a part-time pastorate."


Let's see. If part time means you preach two services on Sunday, about a hour per service, and one on Wednesday, same amount of time. Boy I sure would like a part time job that pays me $500/hour. Where do I sign up in my little town that is on the skids.


Anonymous 6:54, your math is rather suspect here. The anonymous who posted his salary said he made $1400 per month not week. Say he gives those three sermons a week that you mentioned, over a 4 week period, that means he's preached 12 sermons. Not just 3. Add in the preparation time for each sermon, and he's making a far less of an hourly wage than $500 per hour. I'd say he'd be making $10-$15 per hour. It's more than minimum wage, but when you consider this is part time, and he likely doesn't get benefits from his church... then you have a preacher who can't support his family on preaching alone.

As to the subject at hand, I think everyone has covered all the bases. The one line that jumped out at me as a truth was this from FB (Anonymous 12:21):

"Giving is a heart issue."

Not tithing. Giving. We are told in the new covenant to be cheerful givers. What we give, and where we give it to, is between us and God. Not us and the pastor.

Robert L. Peeples said...

Tom,

Can you direct me to the blog post where you talked about a certain seminary professor who recently published a book on the whole tithing/giving issue.
I don't remember how far back in your blog history it was when you wrote about it.

Anonymous said...

Why doesn't Wade tell us that this information he is stating is what God's word says? There can be a huge gap between what we believe and what God's word says. It is possible, for Wade to be honest, he can't. It seems he may be over-spiritualizing. Something preachers ought to not do.

Moses Model said...

My break with tithing happened when I learned the Hebrews gave 1/3 of their income instead of 1/10. All the arguments for the tithe start to break down after that. It is no longer a carry over, but a modification. Why must we give 10% instead of 33%?

Also, in my studies of Islam, I found out that the poor in some sects are exempt from giving and pilgrimages. I have become fond of this idea when I have struggled financially, even though Islam has no mandate over me.

The Bible does mandate that I support my pastor (1 Tim 5:18), but it does not tell me how much to support him with.

http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Tithe

Moses Model said...

Also, I should mention that the first time that I stopped tithing as an adult was when I repeatedly overdrew my bank account while funding my collegiate education. I thought that God certainly wanted me to pay my bills before tithing. An overdrawn account meant that I had no access to money to tithe. The bank ate my checks for all the money I owed them.

New BBC Open Forum said...

iampastorswife > Tithe or Be Ye Cursed!

You men shouldn't read that. You might sin by learning something from a woman.

Robert L. Peeples said...

Nevermind I found it. It's in last month's blogs. The book is written by David Croteau: 4 Perspectives on Tithing.

I'm going to place my order.

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace said...
Link provided had a church's tithing requirement sheet which included this:

"When you get in trouble don't call on God. You better call on your lawyer, banker, doctor or friends because you are going to need THEM when you don't trust GOD."


How about Johnny Hunt having to Call on the Doctor for his Prostrate Cancer and his depression.

Frank Pollard who's call on the Doctor didn't even cure him of Parkinson's Disease.

Fred Winters, a Southern Baptist pastor was killed during a morning worship service by a gunman who reportedly suffered from mental illness caused by Lyme disease.

Steve Gaines had to call on the Doctor for his Myasthenia Gravis Disease and also his Knee replacement Surgery


Church Members who have to call on their Lawyer for bankruptcy

Look , things happen and sometimes they happen to you, so the preacher can say the Devils got you or even God is judging you because of your tithing record.


Damned before being "saved"
Damned after being "saved"


Real nice religion
and you thought it was just as easy as
Come To Jesus.

Moses Model said...

Anon 9:55,

You just made my argument for catechisms. :) If I did not already believe in believers baptism, I would really suggest that new converts be told what is expected of them before they sign on any dotted lines figuratively or literally.

Thy Peace said...

I would have to concur with George M. Ella:

Oklahoma’s Baptist Convention recently appointed a thorough-going Reformed man, Wade Burleson, senior pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church, Enid, OK, as their President. Wade is as sound as a bell and a brilliant pastor, evangelist and organiser.

Steve said...

I am pastoring a church plant where we don't "take up" an offering, but have offering stations and encourage people to give as a part of worship, not compulsion. Recently the head of the church plant committee that oversees us asked, "Do you think that is the best way to take up tithes?" I answered simply, "Yes - we desire generous givers, not terrified tithers."

Anonymous said...

It's not just that tithing doesn't apply because we're not under the Law. There's even more about tithing that pastors are leaving out. For example, under the tithe system, the only ones who had to tithe were farmers, and only farmers who lived within the Holy Land. If you were a scribe or a carpenter (or something like that), you didn't have to tithe at all! This is very different from the idea -- commonly preached -- that the tithe represents 10% of *everyone's* income.

The tithe is *not* a thank offering for God's provision. The basic idea behind the tithe is that the *land* belongs to God, so that everyone who makes his/her living off the land (*viz.* is a farmer) must give 10% of it.

So, for those pastors who think that tithing still applies today, go ahead and collect it -- but make sure that you only collect it from those who are farming within the Holy Land, and make sure that you collect it in the form of animals or crops!