I'm not sure why I'm writing about a blog post written by Les Puryear, but Les is one of the pastors in the blogosphere who makes no bones about what he believes and what YOU should believe, and is not afraid to tell you that you're wrong and he is right. I do appreciate that in Les - it isn't hard to figure out what he believes - but every so often he gives us regular lay folk a glimpse into how the minds of fundamentalist preachers operate.
And it is not a pretty picture at all.
In a very short blog post entitled "The Bottom Line: Obey God's Word", Les explains who are "false prophets":
"There are those who will try to persuade you that the Bible doesn't require you to tithe, that women pastors are acceptable to God, that it's okay to play with the dynamite of alcohol, and that you have no choice about your salvation. Don't believe them. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who tells you that the Bible does not say what it plainly says, is a false prophet and is not to be believed. Do not be misled by those who teach you to disobey God's word."Les gives you his list of the hot topics that mark false teachers today: tithing, women pastors, alcohol, and something or other having to do with Calvinism (which I won't touch except to say that Les himself was a Calvinist until recently, so I guess he was once a false teacher??). This is rubbish, as even a lowly lay person like myself knows the verse Les quotes (2 Tim 3:13-15) is speaking of people who call into question essential doctrines such as the resurrection or the deity of Christ- not about tithes or women pastors or Bud Light.
I can relate to Les, and I actually have pity on him. I too once measured someone's dedication to the Lord, and even their soul's eternal destination based on how they viewed alcohol, whether they thought women were worthy to be pastors (or even deacons), and if someone believed and obeyed an interpretation of Malachi 3 requiring them to give 10% to the church. I'm not kidding...I was saved in and lived in a fundamentalist system that said if you drink alcohol, or even simply failed to teach it as a sin, then you are either eternally stupid or perhaps not really saved. I was taught and believed that even to have women deacons was an abomination in the church. And of course, if you don't believe in the "tithe" you are a no good liberal who didn't believe the bible and were probably not saved.
Funny thing is, I have come to understand that "men of God" vocational preachers who teach what Les teaches are perhaps the ones who are the false prophets spoken of in 2 Tim 3:13-15. Les is NOT saying that you have to obey the Bible...he is saying that you have to agree with him and obey HIS interpretation of scripture in these matters that are of secondary importance. He and his ilk are not comfortable with what the bible says and does not say, so they will add their strict interpretation to the bible, and require others to agree with them else they are labeled heretics.
I do understand his tithing interpretation (I've been taught it for almost 30 years), but in no way, shape or form does the bible clearly teach that a person MUST give 10% of their income else they are in sin - and it certainly doesn't mean they are cursed. No, it is clear: a Christian is free to give as the spirit leads. And most recently I have come to understand the bible does not forbid a woman from serving as a "pastor".
On alcohol, I think abstinence is a wise choice. The bible does not forbid a Christian from drinking alcohol, it warns against drunkenness. I'm OK with that. I am free to teach my kids that abstinence is the best way and I highly recommend it...but I am no longer so insecure that I can't be honest with them about what the Bible says and what it does not say, and then give them wise council that has served me well.
Les says: "Do not be misled by those who teach you to disobey God's word."
I say:
"Do not be misled by those who add to what the bible says and then require you to obey their interpretation to call yourself a Christian. Run from these self-proclaimed "Men of God", as they are after your very soul - and your wallet."
117 comments:
"I do understand his tithing interpretation (I've been taught it for almost 30 years), but in no way, shape or form does the bible clearly teach that a person MUST give 10% of their income else they are in sin...."
Bro, in no way, shape or form does the bible clearly teach that a Christian MUST give 10% of their income, period. Or any other % for that matter.
And most recently I have come to understand the bible does not forbid a woman from serving as a "pastor".
Can you expand on this statement please?
I am so grateful to God that I ran from all that. I ran into the loving arms of grace. It was grace that saved me and grace that keeps me free.
Amen.
I am beginning to wonder, if all these preachers truly understand The Gospel? The evidence indicates they do not. When all these requirements are added as a condition for saving Grace, it is almost like The Spirit is weighted down by lead weights. What is this in us that requires us to create more bonds to tie us up in knots, when The Gospel's message is to liberate us from this very thing.
That is why I have come to believe that true preachers and teachers of The Gospel are rare and to be valued.
Emmanuel - Enid > Ephesians > The Riches of His Grace : "Redeemed! How I Love to Proclaim It" : Ephesians 1:7-10 [1997]
The "less per year" I hear from Les,the better!
Its funny how you attack Les when you do the same--expect people to believe what you say or you will attack and malign them. You must have written this post about him while you were looking in the mirror.
I will give you credit though--you both believe what you say, right or wrong.
Dog,
Here's the deal. These pastors like Les are good, well-meaning men. Just insecure. They were taught that they should be the intermediaries between men and God, but they doubt their own ability to understand Scripture. Anybody who tells you to believe what the Scripture "plainly" says is showing his insecurity. "STUDY to show thyself approved, a workman who RIGHTLY divides the word of truth."
"I'd rather have a serpent in the playpen, than alcohol in the cupboard!"... Anyone else remember that, preached from the pulpit of FBCJ?
If that's not a ridiculous statement, nothing is!!!
Same "man of God" seemed to have no problem with Darrell Gilyard (after all his shenanigans in Texas) coming to FBC to pray on stage and being treated with honor.
So, to have a drink is horrible, but letting a known smooth talking scam artist/ womanizer/etc. come pray at your church is acceptable?
It's extremely difficult to lose respect for someone you've looked up to for so long.
It's no wonder those of us who've grown up in this system, take so long to GROW out of it. But it can be done!
When did Gilyard come to FBCJ after his shenanigans in Texas? I don't believe he ever came back to do anything at FBCJ after that, did he?
From what I just read in this blog article, Mr. Puryear has no business being in a position/function of "overseer" in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Clearly, he is not very stable. I agree with "thypeace" in that there is a real good possibility that these guys have never really experienced the truth of the Gospel.
Well said, Thy Peace.
If these leaders are so focused on the wrong things, or are even wrong in what they believe about these things, how can we be sure they are right on the most important issues of salvation and grace?
If they have no regard for grace, and worship their personal interpretation of the Bible instead of who it points to, they are wasting everyone's time and causing harm.
"It is wise to abstain from alcohol" but wrong to preach against it?
If it is Wise to abstain from it, then it is folly not to.
"To knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
"Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly."
If you say that it is "wise" to abstain from it, then simultaneously you are saying that it is "right" to abstain from it.
You can't have it both ways, "folly and right" do not coexist in the same behavior.
Cranky - big difference between preaching against it, and telling people that if you don't preach against it you're a false prophet. Can't you tell the difference? A litmus test: "man of God" or "false prophet" depending on your view of alcohol? As my friend Ergun once said, "my, my..."
Thank God I got away from that legalistic bull. I now attend a United Methodist church where women are treated as eguals. We have a woman associate pastor and I have a woman Sunday school teacher. By the way I happen to be of the male gender.
Yeah, Les is pretty bold until he is asked to explain his interpretation in light of scripture.
He was writing comments on this blog a few months ago supporting tithing. He was trying to assert that anyone who didn't support a 10% mandatory tithe was "lawless."
When I asked him why they paid 3 tithes in the OT and he was only preaching one tithe for today he said that he would do some research on it and write a paper later.
That was over a year ago.
I suppose that is his standard stalling tactic when he is asked to support his position in light of scripture.
Still waiting Les.
I didn't know that Les was a movie star. Check him out on IMDB.
Watchdog,
You make a good point but,one of the problems with us Baptist is we go to one extreme or the other. We have grace but there are boundries for a healthy Christian life. In the last few decades it seems like we are more concerned with what are our freedoms instead of what sacrifices we are called to make for the sake of the Gospel. Pastors are specially bad about this. As a pastor I do not drink because I feel it is a Biblical mandate on me. My deacons joke with me and tell me they can be of little wine and with dealing with me they need it sometimes. There is nothing wrong with rules but it does not substitute the grace that comes from God through Christ. At the same point how can we expect to have a healthy relationship and life in Christ without living Biblical lives. I know that is not what your problem is but it is one of what the scipture really says about some issue. Don't blame a guy if he feels he is being faithful to scipture. There has been opposing opinions since day one. If he is being an arrogant self righteous butt then that is another issue.
IMDB > Les Puryear
"As my friend Ergun once said, "my, my..."
With friends like you who needs enemies!!!
Watch Dog
You said, "big difference between preaching against it, and telling people that if you don't preach against it you're a false prophet"
What!?
Is folly, foolishness, and deliberately unwise behavior sin? yes or no.
If it is, then whoever is preaching that a sin is okay, is a false prophet! Is it not.
(Whatever the sin is.) I'm not just talking about alcohol, that's just the flavor of the discussion.
You just said someone can preach against it.
But whoever doesn't is okay too.
According to you, some can preach against it, and some don't have to . . .
Both ways is no way.
I see that the TROLL has taken on yet another identity.
Don't miss Les Puryear in the feel good hit of the summer "The Gravedancers"
The Grave Dancers Storyline
"After the funeral of a old friend who died in a car accident, former school friends Harris, Kira, and Sid break into the local cemetery after dark, and after Sid reads a mysterious incantation he finds on one of the nearby tombstones, they dance on the graves. Soon, the three of them find themselves haunted by three different ghosts whose graves they desecrated. Harris and his wife Allison find themselves haunted by a deranged female pianist/ax murdered. Sid gets haunted by a child pyromaniac. And Kira haunted by a sadistic rapist. All of them turn to a paranormal investigator named Vincent Cochet and his assistant Frances to try to help them break the curse they imposed on themselves before the next full moon when they will be killed by the ghosts wrath."
Watchdog, with regard to D.G. being called to the stage to pray... I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was during an evening pastor's conference. Maybe someone else remembers it also.
Want to know who these Fundamentalist are?
Just look who is in control and in leadership positions around these conventions and you'll see who spews gravel out of their mouths, just like LES.
I call em Extremist!
Oh No. I am toast.
I went to a funeral and a Lady who was the Pastor of the church did the ceremony.
Guess in the eyes of the Baptist I long gone and Christ has x'ed me out of the book.
Troll my foot.
I asked a serious question, expecting a serious answer.
Is folly, foolishiness and deliberate unwise behavior a sin, yes or no?
Nothing Trollish about that!
Troll Anon 12:37, the Bible endorses alchohol for those depressed and dying in Proverbs 31. So is the Bible advocating sin, in your opinion? If the Bible is literal and without error, which I believe, are you sinning when you rail against those who don't support full abstinence of alcohol, but rather take the approach specifically prescribed in the Bible?
Anon 12:44
You've jumped in the middle of a conversation.
WD said it was "UNWISE" to drink alcohol, but was wrong to preach against it.
Alcohol out of the way, my question was plain.
If it is UNWISE, the Biblical word for UNWISE is folly, or foolishness, when speaking of deliberate action.
My question is then to WD, if non-medicinal use of alcohol is UNWISE, then why should folly not be preached against?
And if it should be preached against, then it should be preached against by preachers!
NO Troll Here!
What about I Corinthians 14:34?
WD...
There are many good things about fundamentalists. I often wonder if the people/pastors that we label as fundamentalists would actually be accepted in the ranks of self-described fundamentalist churches/denominations???
Here is a really short, but really good article from John Piper called "20 Reasons I Don't Take Potshots at Fundamentalists." (I copied the url below but I'm not sure if it will convert to a link, sorry)
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/20-reasons-i-dont-take-potshots-at-fundamentalists
Reason #20 is particularly true!!!
You didn't answer the question TROLL. Or did you want rip these verses out of the Bible?
Ecclesiastes 9:7 “Drink your wine with a merry heart.”
Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.”
Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing.
Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…”
Perhaps if your didn't write your comments with ALL CAPS (screaming when done on the internet) and tons of ??? and ... and !!!, then your ideas would be taken more seriously.
Nope, never mind. Your comments are stupid even with the urban legend grammar removed.
"What about I Corinthians 14:34?"
Is this verse to be taken literally?
So, whoever wrote this comment, does your wife/sister/mother remain silent at all times in church or does she speak and violate the law?
I too was once immersed in fundamentalism. I was taught that when i was first saved yrs ago. Having gone through the dissension in the sbc and being forced to take sides, has caused me to re-consider what I once believed. The literal accepting of the Bible seems to have caused a didactic frame of mind. Christ taught in a metaphorical way that requires more than just a simple yes or no.
"The Grave Dancers Storyline"
That movie sounds like everything that Les preaches against.
"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!"
This isn't rocket science folks. Jesus drank wine. They called him a winebibber. He made wine from water, but Jesus did not sin; therefore, to drink wine or alcohol is not a sin.
Paul didn't think drinking wine was a sin. He recommended it for Timothy.
"No longer drink only water, but use a little WINE for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities." (1Timothy 5:23)
Les continues to crank out his whiny posts.
Les says the following today:"It's ironic that we spent 20 years battle for biblical integrity and now we have Southern Baptists who are attempting to turn God's Word into a biblical cafeteria in which one must choose a main entree ( believe in Christ) but everything else is optional."
No names just a blanket accusation of others.
Something is very wrong with this man as he is accusing many of the "conservative" brothers of not being "conservative" enough.
Les says :"They must be opposed, exposed, and deposed."
Can you imagine what he would do to folks that disagree with him if he had the authority.
Folks like him are very dangerous!!
I do not mind fundamentalist but FUNDAMENTALIST like him are the ones that need to be opposed and exposed.
Les is doing a great job of exposing himself.
"After a night of drunken exploits, Allison, Harris, and Kira are chased and terrorized by the ghosts of a child pyromaniac, an ax murderer, and a rapist."
Should a Christian be associated with a film like this?
WD
Is deliberately unwise, folly and foolish behavior a sin?
"To knoweth to do good and doeth it not . . . "
I wonder if this might provide some insight into why Les left his last church.
This was Part 1.
Quote from Part 2 (emphasis mine):
So, how are we to answer our question: "Should a congregation follow God-ordained men separated by God for the purpose of leading the local church?" I believe the clear answer from the Bible is a resounding "Yes"! The local church is to obey and submit to its God-given leadership. The God-ordained leaders must lead with hearts of humble servants who will be held accountable by God for the integrity of their leadership in accord with the Bible.
You know, I read some of his blog posts, and he seems sincere. I like some of his articles, the ones where he's not all puffed up and full of himself.
And then I read this week's "my way or the highway" posts and wonder if they're even written by the same person.
He said last year, "As of October 31, 2010, I have resigned as the Senior Pastor of Lewisville Baptist Church, Lewisville, NC. The reasons are many but suffice it to say that my focus and the focus of some church leaders were not in sync, so I have decided to move on to a new adventure in Christ."
Fair enough. That sounds voluntary to me. Doesn't it to you?
Flash forward a few months to this.
Here he says he inquired about receiving unemployment compensation which the church told him was not available because they didn't pay it (which they don't have to do). Then he says, "What this means is that if any church personnel are laid off, fired, or forced to resign, there are no government benefits available to them for unemployment."
So did he voluntarily resign or was he forced to resign? Because if he voluntarily resigned he would not be eligible for unemployment anyway and would have had no reason to even inquire about it.
I'm so tired of this "layperson" vs. "pastor" stuff. It's as if they really believe they are higher up the food chain than the rest of us. It goes hand in hand with pastors (and laypersons) who insist there are pink and blue "roles" in the church. "Oh, women are equal, but... " and that's where they lose me. Same with, "Laypersons are equal to pastors, but the local church is to obey and submit to its God-given leadership." No different than saying, "The wife is equal to the husband, but she is to obey him and submit to his God-given leadership," all the while ignoring Ephesians 5:21.
And "vision," the new buzz word. A friend described it best:
It's like God is standing somewhere with a bow and arrow, and attached to the arrow is this thing called a "vision." Then God releases the arrow and it zings through "Pastor" and lands on the ground before us. As it lands we bow to it as a sacred "message from God."
Cranky Old TROLL!
Click the Play button in the player.
Watch Les Puryear starring as... Satan!
The reviews are in:
Amazon.com
1 out of 5 stars
Bad Movie, April 2, 2007
By Doctor Blasphemy (Bunghole, NJ)
This review is for:
The Gravedancers - After Dark Horrorfest (DVD)
In brief: bad acting, cheesy plot. It makes Snakehead Terror look good in comparison. Glad I only rented it. Unless you want a bad movie to watch while drunk, don't waste your time.
I smell Oscar!
Ouch!
Amazon.com
1 out of 5 stars
Bad. No other way to describe it. June 27, 2010
By Tracy (USA)
This review is for: The Gravedancers - After Dark Horrorfest (DVD)
Boring. Clare Kramer = low-rent Katherine Heigl, and that isn't any kind of complement to either of them. The dialogue is bad, the main characters are a drag. The professor and his assistant are the only remotely interesting members of the cast. The middle third of the story is somewhat interesting - I won't give any spoilers because if you watch this, you deserve what you get - but the ending is very, very stinky, for lack of any better terms that don't involve expletives.
I think Les's church fired him and if they are reading his current posts the majority have to be happy he is gone.
"Watch Les Puryear starring as... Satan!"
He certainly tortured the audience with that performance.
"Watch Les Puryear starring as... Satan!"
Good Casting!
I've interacted with Les a bit. He and I disagree on quite a few things.
It is my view that dragging up a pastor's former church difficulties is not helpful and I hate to see it here or anywhere. We usually get partial information and then a world of conjecture.
No one profits from that.
There should be plenty enough in his public statements to criticize.
William
Those were his public statements, and they seem to contradict.
I'm sorry-
You can't be telling people that the Fundamentalist Preachers as a whole are false teachers of God's word. You major on tithing too much here. I tithe as an example of giving. If my meager tithe can help one person get saved, great. Why don't you concentrate on, if you give more than the tithe more people will get saved?
Now, why don't you tell us WHICH denomination is best at preaching God's Word. I've found that the Fundamentalist Baptist continue to be the best at what Paul would consider to be sound doctrinally.
This is my opinion. What say all of you?
FB
And most recently I have come to understand the bible does not forbid a woman from serving as a "pastor".
Where is that in the Bible?
I find it humorous how so many FBC Jax members go along with the no alcohol idea while around other FBC people, but SO many of them drink otherwise! So completely hypocritical. I don't care if you want to drink, but don't pretend you don't when you are acting churchy and spiritual
William:
You are right about Les. I will rephrase what I said--I believe after Les chewed his church out on a blog about them not going along with his idea of spending mission's money it was not too much longer before the church felt it was best he leave. How they worked that out I haven't a clue.
Anon 4:53 - you need to do a better job of reading my words.
I have not said all fundamentalists are false prophets! I said:
"Funny thing is, I have come to understand that "men of God" vocational preachers who teach what Les teaches are perhaps the ones who are the false prophets spoken of in 2 Tim 3:13-15."
Notice I said "perhaps". And I said those who "teach what Les teaches."
Not all "fundamentalists" have the unmitigated gall to affirm with 100% certainty that people who don't believe the tithe is a requirement of Christians, that those who believe God "accepts" female pastors...are "false prophets".
Les sure does, though. And my criticism is aimed squarely at Les and those who teach the same nonsense.
New BBC,
Why are all the links for you 3:20 p.m. comment now broken?
I could guess, but thought I would ask.
Interesting title. I think one could also make a case for this blog that if you don't agree with those who support it you are mindless kool-aid drinkers.
Much the same.
And most recently I have come to understand the bible does not forbid a woman from serving as a "pastor".
Where is that in the Bible?
August 12, 2011 5:19 PM
You could either start with Pentecost or go back further to Deborah.
Why are all the links for you 3:20 p.m. comment now broken?
I could guess, but thought I would ask.
Hmmm... I don't know. They were fine earlier because I checked them. Sun spots?
Well, okay, since they now seem to be broken... I'll repost those parts of my comment.
I wonder if this might provide some insight into why Les left his last church.
This was Part 1.
Quote from Part 2 (emphasis mine):
So, how are we to answer our question: "Should a congregation follow God-ordained men separated by God for the purpose of leading the local church?" I believe the clear answer from the Bible is a resounding "Yes"! The local church is to obey and submit to its God-given leadership. The God-ordained leaders must lead with hearts of humble servants who will be held accountable by God for the integrity of their leadership in accord with the Bible.
You know, I read some of his blog posts, and he seems sincere. I like some of his articles, the ones where he's not all puffed up and full of himself.
And then I read this week's "my way or the highway" posts and wonder if they're even written by the same person.
He said last year, "As of October 31, 2010, I have resigned as the Senior Pastor of Lewisville Baptist Church, Lewisville, NC. The reasons are many but suffice it to say that my focus and the focus of some church leaders were not in sync, so I have decided to move on to a new adventure in Christ."
Fair enough. That sounds voluntary to me. Doesn't it to you?
Flash forward a few months to this. (This one isn't broken right now.)
Here he says he inquired about receiving unemployment compensation which the church told him was not available because they didn't pay it (which they don't have to do). Then he says, "What this means is that if any church personnel are laid off, fired, or forced to resign, there are no government benefits available to them for unemployment."
So did he voluntarily resign or was he forced to resign? Because if he voluntarily resigned he would not be eligible for unemployment anyway and would have had no reason to even inquire about it.
Note: It's none of my concern whether he left voluntarily or not. My point was the articles seem to contradict each other.
"It is my view that dragging up a pastor's former church difficulties is not helpful and I hate to see it here or anywhere. We usually get partial information and then a world of conjecture.
No one profits from that.
There should be plenty enough in his public statements to criticize.
William"
I like that thought William
I find it humorous how so many FBC Jax members go along with the no alcohol idea while around other FBC people, but SO many of them drink otherwise! So completely hypocritical. I don't care if you want to drink, but don't pretend you don't when you are acting churchy and spiritual
August 12, 2011 5:51 PM
You nailed a whole lot of them - I especially love the ones that say "my doctor" told me wine was good for my heart. Their kids grow up doing the same - parents are their living examples. Before I left FBC I was disgusted with the many leaders who drink, divorced, have wayward kids & then stand before a class lecturing them on how to run your life. BTW, love the front pic - reminds me of Mac Brunson! LOL
The fundie preachers I've heard act like they themselves are gods. They lay down the law. They are the Man of God. Period. Their whole affect says "authoritarian."
Some people are drawn to them. It keeps life very simple. The preacher tells you how to live your life. No thinking required. No annoying indecision.
I think this has flourished in Southern culture because we are big on law and order and respecting authority.
It all works pretty well until you start reading more, moving to a different part of the country, get exposed to people in other denominations, run across very well-educated people. Then your mind starts to expand, learn new things, find out that everybody doesn't think like you. As much as you sometimes miss the warmth and coziness of your fundie existence, you can never go back and don't really want to.
My advice-enjoy a glass or two of red wine with dinner tonite. Good for the soul and the body.
Do all you people just sit around and rip FBC Jax and all conservative preachers? Just read some of your blog posts. Not only are you wicked in some of your posts but your self-righteous attitudes are scary.
If you don't like FBC Jax or a conservative pastor, then go find another denomination and quit obsessing with those you dislike.
Its not healthy--spiritually or physically. Move on.
If you don't like FBC Jax or a conservative pastor, then go find another denomination and quit obsessing with those you dislike.
Its not healthy--spiritually or physically. Move on.
August 13, 2011 10:19 AM
The majority have moved on - what I dislike is those of you at FBCJ who do what you preach not to do. Who is ripping who here? You have divorced deacons who drink (one glass, two glasses of wine, right, and a few more before the day is over. The ripping my friend goes both ways on this blog. I suggest you walk away or move on as you say.
FBC Jax Watchdog said...
And most recently I have come to understand the bible does not forbid a woman from serving as a "pastor".
FullCourt said...
Where is that in the Bible?
Ummm -- how is someone supposed to show where in the Bible it doesn't forbid something? That's like asking, "Where in the Bible doesn't it say that men can't fly airplanes?"
The whole point is that the Bible doesn't say it.
"The majority have moved on"
I think you must be watching the services at the DAWGS current church. Pretty empty. the majority of those folks did move on when Brother Harold left. Sad.
I think you must be watching the services at the DAWGS current church. Pretty empty. the majority of those folks did move on when Brother Harold left. Sad.
August 13, 2011 11:04 AM
In response to your post just let me say I have no idea who the DAWG is, nor the church he went to after he left FBCJ, or his current church. What I do know that what he has written on this blog has all been truthful and one of my favorite blogs.
Ummm -- how is someone supposed to show where in the Bible it doesn't forbid something? That's like asking, "Where in the Bible doesn't it say that men can't fly airplanes?"
The whole point is that the Bible doesn't say it.
August 13, 2011 10:56 AM
Bingo! There is not one single prohibition to women teaching men in the Old Covenant. In fact, there are several examples of such.
Yet, they want us to believe there is a NEW law for the NEW Covenant.
In fact, 1 Corin 14 was referring to the ORAL law and Paul totally negates it in verse 36.
So, we have women sinning in the New Covenant by prophesying which is the same as preaching. (Many try to tel you it is different but it isn't. Then they try to tell you that pulpits/buildings are sacred or that there are "senior pastors", etc.)
So much silliness to keep up the charade that seeks to silence over 50% of believers. Satan loves it.
"If you don't like FBC Jax or a conservative pastor, then go find another denomination and quit obsessing with those you dislike"
Why are YOU obsessing here? If you don't like it "quit" coming here and obsessing with what YOU don't like. :o)
Don't ya'll just love the illogic that comes out of the mega world?
"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)
Don't argue with me...I didn't write it!
Anon:
You wrote:
""Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)
Don't argue with me...I didn't write it!"
And the practical application of this is?
What do you say about 1 Timothy 2:15
and Mark 16:16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Love to hear your explanation on these two.
And I'm guessing you did not write these two either.
I'm going to go out on a limb I will not get a response back from you.
I guess we all love to obsess, complain, gripe, condemn, and act self-righteous. Isn't that why we're on this blog in the first place?
Tom Parker said...
"Can you imagine what he would do to folks that disagree with him if he had the authority."
You already have these kind in power now so you don't have to imagine:
Mac Brunson
Steve Gaines
Ed Young
etc
"I guess we all love to obsess, complain, gripe, condemn, and act self-righteous. Isn't that why we're on this blog in the first place?"
BULLSEYE!!!
Aren't blogs wonderful! We can complain about any preacher we want and make any kind of accusation we desire with no consequences. We can rip into each other without any consideration of Biblical responsibilities. We can act self-righteous all we want and never tithe or even attend church at all. We can question someone's salvation or walk with the Lord when we may not have one of our own. We can even start up a blog without ever telling our name and then try to pass ourselves off as experts on something.
And we can do all of this anonymously and then condemn anyone who would question our being anonymous.
Isn't American grand?
The Vancover Sun has an interview with Eugene Peterson, author of "The Message". It is a good article in which he talks about the Mega churches. Wish more pastors took his approach to ministry.
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2011/08/11/eugene-peterson-lambastes-mega-churches-defends-mainline.aspx
" We can rip into each other without any consideration of Biblical responsibilities."
It is a responsibility of believers to warn of wolves, hirlings and charlatans. Too bad you want to protect them and don't know any better. That is because you are listening to them.
"And we can do all of this anonymously and then condemn anyone who would question our being anonymous."
LOL! YOU posted this anonymously!!
So typical of the logic coming out of mega churches these days.
I guess we all love to obsess, complain, gripe, condemn, and act self-righteous. Isn't that why we're on this blog in the first place?
August 13, 2011 3:08 PM
It is better than using a pulpit like your IDOLS do.
""Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)
What law? Show me the "law" Paul refers to in God's Word . God is always clear about His laws. We never have to guess or read into it.
There is NO law in the OT about this. So you want me to believe there is a NEW law for the NT Body of Christ? You want me to believe that what Deborah or Huldah did in the OC is now sin for today?
in fact, this verse is quoting a law in the Mishna/Talmud which is the oral law eventually written down. This quote is almost word for word from the oral law and repeated several times in both.
Paul totally negates it in verse 36 Check the Greek. (such as: Are you kidding me? The Word came from YOU?)
In fact, the word "silent" in the Greek (siago) means totally silent as in no talking, singing, etc. It means women would be in sin for opening their mouths at all even to sing hymns in church. This is what the oral law taught about the for synagogues.
1 Corinthians is full of questions Paul answers from "Chloe's people". In Greek, there was no punctuation so the translators added them where they saw fit.
So, what you are doing is teaching the oral law for today by quoting this out of context as a law for today. That makes you a Judaizer.
Study to show yourself approved, please. And use some basic common sense and the interlinear instead of always believing what the pulpit celebs tell you it means.
Here is the thing watchdog, I know simply good natured church going men who would disagree with you. I even held to a rule of thumb with 10% paycheck tithing for the longest time but allowed for disagreement on it. The more I understood this issue in terms of the OT though I realized that even the rule of thumb I had was flawed and realized I had fell into a corban mentality on this. Here is my beef on this with the pulpiteers: they are saying that members are to honor the church with the tithe first. The NT testament and even Paul says himself to take care of ones widowed mother, aunts, etc first and foremost BEFORE tending to needs of the church. We have some screwy ideas of welfare in this country already and these pulpiteers don't even teach it this way.
I good link in reference to previous comment:
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id140.html
The Bible does not stutter.
Women are not to be Leaders, Pastors, and they are not to teach men.
Our ladies at the Church do a great job in the nursery and with Elementary School Children and they are very happy to be back there sharing God's Word.
The Ladies do not teach Men, or Young Men, and they do not hold any Leadership role in our Church because that is what God says....PERIOD!!!
Like Dr. Rogers used to say...
"A woman is better than a man....at being a woman.
A man is better than a woman...at being a man"
You Ladies should be thanking God you don't have to lead and guide the Sheep.
You get to lead the kids and that is where the blessing really is!
The statement in your article apears to support women pastors. Is this what you meant? And how do you support your view Biblically? Thanks for your time.
Chief:
You said:"The statement in your article apears to support women pastors. Is this what you meant? And how do you support your view Biblically? Thanks for your time."
That seems to be all you got out of this post.
Sad!!
Name me one Woman that is leading a Church that is reaching People for Christ???
(Crickets....)
Name me one Woman that is leading a major missions organization??
(thought so)
Why...you may ask?
God divinely ordained Men to Lead.
Feminism is straight from the Pit and has infiltrated our Churches and is one of the reasons that we have lost the power of God.
Anon:
You said:"Name me one Woman that is leading a Church that is reaching People for Christ???
(Crickets....)
Name me one Woman that is leading a major missions organization??
(thought so)
Why...you may ask?
God divinely ordained Men to Lead.
Feminism is straight from the Pit and has infiltrated our Churches and is one of the reasons that we have lost the power of God."
Such strong statements from an individual not even man or woman enough to put a name with it.
The only pit that I see here is your comment it is PITiful.
'Name me one Woman that is leading a Church that is reaching People for Christ???"
What is your definition of 'church'?
"Name me one Woman that is leading a major missions organization??"
The SBC has two major offerings for missions named after women. Annie Armstrong/Lottie Moon. I wonder why?
"God divinely ordained Men to Lead.'
Can you show me that Law in the Word? Deborah was in sin?
"Feminism is straight from the Pit and has infiltrated our Churches and is one of the reasons that we have lost the power of God."
Right. God hates women.
Tom,
That's just the resident WD troll. It's recognizable by its one-sentence-per-line, CAP-filled, multi-!!!!!!! rants. We try to treat it like the gooey thing on the sidewalk. Observe it if you must, but walk around it and never ever touch it!
Did not catch that watchdog about the women ministers statement....your abosolutely right on target with tithing issue but women elders really don't have a precedent anywhere in Scriptures. Some women do in fact do a good job administratively as pastors but the initial aspects with elders in the early church was to be involved in formative discipleship of the newly member adult male. Several years ago I read an article on the missing passive fathers that the culture tended to promote. The rise of the female rights movement coincides with the Hefner mentality of that generation. It is not really a good thing when God does allow a woman to become a good pastor. It really means the men in the culture have lost their proper role in the elder mentoring process.
As I have said before, if pastors are willing to misuse scripture to tell Christians that they are absolutely obligated to give 10% of their income to a church else they are under a curse, then they are able to misuse scripture to interpret the role of women in the church.
The scriptures do not prohibit a woman from functioning in any capacity in the church, deacon or pastor. I've written once about it before, here. Eventually I will write more about it.
If women can't preach in a fundamental Baptist church then no more women in the choir or women singing solos. A women singing a solo is in effect, preaching to the congregation.
On the Wartburg Watch,
A. Amos Love on Thu, Aug 11 2011 at 10:44 am, said
"Hmmm? Todays “Pastor/leader?” Is this a “Title” or “Position” in the scriptures?
Makes an interesting study. Where are “pastor/leaders” in the Bible?
Here’s some questions to ask as you check out the Bible for pastors.
In the Bible, How many people are… called pastor?
In the Bible, How many people have… the “Title” pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… hired, or fired, as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… “led” by a pastor?
And every pastor I’ve met also has the “Title” Reverend.
Can’t seem to find anyone with the “Title” Reverend in the Bible either.
Why would someone, male or female, take a “Title” NOT found in the Bible?
Doesn’t anyone read The Bible?
In my experience with “pastor/leaders” and having been in “Leadership” shows me…
No matter how loving… eventually…
No matter how humble… eventually…
No matter how much a servant… eventually…
“Pastor.leaders” – will “exercise authority” and “lord it over God’s heritage.”
That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.”
“Pastor/Leader” = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice – Jesus
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus…
Also on the Wartburg Watch,
A. Amos Love on Fri, Aug 12 2011 at 10:14 am, said:
Anyone… I was wondering…
Where are you with the use of the word “leader” for a“Disciple of Christ?” ;-)
Jesus always took and recommended the **low place.** Yes?
The word “leader” seems like a “high place.” Yes?
Seems Jesus has a unique take on “Leaders” for **His Body.** “ONE”
As man – Jesus humbled Himself, made himself of NO reputation,
and took on the form of a **Servant.** Php 2:7-8. ;-)
Why would anyone, male or female, want to be known as a “leader?”
Jesus taught “His Disciples” NOT to be called “leader?”
Jesus, in Mat 23:10 KJV, told **His disciples** “NOT” to call themselves
“Master / Leaders,” for you have “ONE” “Master / Leader” “The Christ.”
King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters: for “ONE” is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders, for “ONE” is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders, you have only “ONE” leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader, your “ONE” and only leader is the Messiah.
Jesus told **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders** and NONE did.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
Why isn’t what Jesus said important? ;-)
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice – One leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Watchdog the issue is not about the prohibiting of a woman as an elder...it is what is clearly laid out in being an elder. Also, in Timothy the Greek women of the day were syncretizing the myths and such into the fellowship and Paul was addressing that issue. Daughters can indeed preach,testify,sing,be a deacon, etc. but that has nothing to do in overseeing and "formative" discipleship. Should a Christian businessman ignore the unemployed male in his church or fire him? But never does an "overseeer" address this does he in regards to mentoring and exhorting other males. Yet I believe formative discipleship involves teaching males to learn a trade too.
Anon 7:15,
Hey, I never thought of that. Limit the choir to men only and no solos by women either!
Actually, male or female, soloists make me uncomfortable. If it's an opera or The Messiah at a secular theater, that's different.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone or any preacher or any church that you people like? If so, let me know where so I can come and visit.
Just do us a favor and stay home.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone or any preacher or any church that you people like? If solet me know where so I can come and visit.
August 14, 2011 3:20 PM
Why? You have never heard of them. they are not conference speakers, authors, don't have mega churches or big para church ministry's and don't hang around with other "christian celebs". Many of them work actual jobs so as not to be a burden on the Body. Their knees are calloused.
YOU would not be impressed with them.
Just do us a favor and stay home.
Every one should do this if they are concerned about their soul and start using the brain god gave them.
I would think if all of you on this blog stayed home the pastors would be greatly appreciative and I'm sure the church would function much more smoothly.
I imagine that most of them already stay home (and sure don't tithe). Most of their time is spent criticizing pastors and other churches.
The language in the NT is a problem of translation. In many cases, the noun or pronoun is implied by the verb form. The usual patriarchally oriented translator (like those employed by King James) will take a verb from that could be translated as "one" and put "he" since that is also appropriate. Also many languages, including the Romance languages, inc. Latin, use the masculine for any plural except the case where all involved are female. So the original language does not necessarily imply men only. Similarly words for husband and wife are often the same word with only a different letter at the end, and the male form is used when the reference is general rather than specific. So "husband" can include wife!
It is a very slippery slope.
First, Women as Deacons.
Then Women as Elders.
Then Women as Pastors.
Now Gay Marriage.
Feminism has brought Satan in our Churches.
It all sounds so innocent.
Sort of like that the way that snake in the Garden sounded to Eve.
1, There is nothing about feminism that leads to homosexuality.
2. It is not feminism to suggest that, since "in Christ there is neither male nor female" and the usually cited verses are mistranslated and misapplied, women should be treated equally in all respects in the church. It is merely recognizing that God can call anyone he chooses to any place and role he chooses.
3. It has nothing to do with Satan, except providing a few more voices to preach against sin and complacency, and therefore against his actions.
I believe that Patriarchy is the spawn of Satan.
Anon 10:53
Very, very instructive comment.
This shows the mentality of a male-dominated denomination that actually fears women.
To think that the sin of homosexuality is somehow related to a woman exercising their God-given gift to teach.
Unbelievable.
Anonymous said...
"I would think if all of you on this blog stayed home the pastors would be greatly appreciative and I'm sure the church would function much more smoothly."
All you Kool Aid Drinkers, keep drinking and all will be well.
Listen as Leaders are told: you are not into the Kingdom Building, they are not your kids, to suck it up and be under the Authority (of a pastor)
Just Keep Saying:
To God be the Glory
Note: that this Staff Member Phil Newberry was removed from his 24 year rein of being the Bellevue Baptist Student Pastor, and moved to a new start multi site church. Now he has developed Kidney Cancer. Days are numbered as a Staff Member of the Bellevue Baptist Church.
Keep Drinking the Kool Aid
Anon 10:53
Very, very instructive comment.
This shows the mentality of a male-dominated denomination that actually fears women.
To think that the sin of homosexuality is somehow related to a woman exercising their God-given gift to teach.
Unbelievable.
August 15, 2011 12:05 AM
Oh don't you know that women are always more easily deceived? The Cross is not enough for them to overcome such a thing and have the indwelling Holy Spirit. they are to remain ignorant and deceieved and their husbands must be their Holy Spirit for them. If they are not married then their father or pastor.
(Never mind that Eve admitted it and Adam blamed God and Eve, Adam is still the one God chose to bein charge of Eve. Sure wish I could find that verse! It has to be true because so many pastors teach it...butwait...these pastor are men so it is in their best interest to teach such a thing....for centuries.....)
So, the only logical outcome now that women have civil equal rights and are getting uppity for the first time in a few thousandyears, we must equate them teaching men anything with the sin of homosexuality.
See, we have taught people to believe whatever th pastor says and not to study deeply on their own so this will work. We can see that uppity women will lead to homos preaching.
Never mind logic or truth. Nevermind Deborah or Huldah. Maybe people won't look into it deeply and we can fool them until Jesus comes back. Then we can make sure only men are behind our sacred furniture in "offices" that do not exist as offices but only functions in the Body. But of course we are not the real Body. Shh. Don't tell anyone. We must keep our gigs of authority.
Les Puryear has know posted the following:
For those that Ignore God's Word
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa. 5:20
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea." Mark 9:42
Be very careful how you try to sweep away what God plainly says. You will be held accountable. Be very careful how you handle God's word. You will be held accountable.
I think he loves saying--You will be held accountable as if it somehow or another he is not accountable. Do you hear the ominous music playing in the background when you read this?
I think Les's FUNDAMENTALISM is showing for all to see.
I may say it wrong:But how does one compromise with a FUNDAMENTALIST? You just do what ever they tell you to in other words they do not compromise it has to be you.
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea." Mark 9:42
Does that include acting in an R rated movie?
It was said by Anon about Les:
"Does that include acting in an R rated movie?"
Yea, Les, why don't you cruise over here were you are free to post and explain this one.
Me thinks someone is being hypocritical.
I don't think you'll be hearing from Les anytime soon on this blog.
I believe he learned his lesson a year or so ago when he tried to preach his storehouse tithing doctrine over here.
He was asked too many questions that he couldn't answer.
Some people followed him over to his blog to continue the discussion and then he turned off his comments soon after that.
He's better off when he can do all the talking and no one is allowed to respond.
That way he can remain on the attack and no questions are asked.
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