Readers - welcome to a special episode of "The Price is Right"!!! For this episode, Bob Barker has come out of retirement, back to host this special featuring some incredible marketing deals sold EXCLUSIVELY by the marketing and promotions team at FBC Jax, Inc. for their 2010 Pastor's Conference. Never before has a mega church sold advertising in the halls of its church to the highest bidder - what a special day!! Join us, as the show begins!Bob Barker: "Johnny Donovan, please tell us who our next three contestants are, please!!!"
Johnny Donovan: "Sure thing....well, Bob, the following are our contestants for the next FBC Jax Price is Right Showcase:
Peter Paigerson, President of the Northeastern Seminary.....COME ON DOWN!!!!
Al Incisor, President of Deep Southern Seminary....COME ON DOWN!!!!
Thim Clouder, President of the Give Life Publishing company...COME ON DOWN!!! "
[applause as contests run down to the front]
Bob Barker: "Hello gentlemen! Thank you for joining us, here are the next three items up for bid on the FBC Jax, Inc. Price is Right Showcase....Johnny, tell these men what they can buy today!!!"
Johnny D: "Well, Bob, the first item up for bid today on the FBC Jax, Inc. showcase is:
"Advertising your Christian agency on all the Bottled Water given to attendees at the 2010 FBC Jax, Inc. 2010 Pastor's Conference!!!! "
[Gasps, then Applause!!!]
Johnny D (continues): "Yes, gentlemen, the bidding will start at $1000 - you can take the marketing of your Christian organization to new heights by getting your name out on all bottles of water at the conference. What better way to say "We love Jesus and Jesus
LOVES our organization!" than by giving a cup of cold water...but not in Jesus name but IN YOUR AGENCY'S NAME...to those thirsty pastor's and pastor's wives at the 2010 FBC Jax, Inc. Pastor's Conference. Worried your donors will be flabbergasted at paying large advertising fees to a church? Not a problem, our church marketing experts have researched this, and are convinced your donors will be so proud you have spent their donations on such a worthy cause...as the FBC Jax, Inc. Pastor's Conference and quenching the thirst of the those pastors sweating in the Florida sunshine!! "
Johnny D (continues): "And gentlemen, don't forget....wasn't it Jesus who said whoever gives a cup of cold water is truly blessed? How much bigger will the blessings be when your agency gives a big gulp of H2O to the portly pastors and their heavy helpmates? You can put your faith into action by giving out not just a measley 4 oz. cup of cold water in a breakable cup like Jesus did, but a whole 16 ounces in one beautiful, clear, non-breakable (and recyclable!) plastic bottle! "
Johnny D (continues): "As a bonus, you will get the assistance of the FBC Jax sales and church marketing team to help you design your logo for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!".....And you can get this thirst-quenching indulgence, Gentlemen, if the PRICE IS RIGHT!! "
[APPLAUSE]
Bob Barker: "Wow, thank you, Johnny. Gentlemen, your bids please: "
Al Incisor: "I'll say a thousand dollars, Bob....fifteen hundred if I can keep my speaking slot for 2011 Pastor's Conference."
Peter Paigerson: "I'll bid a thousand dollars, Bob, if I can get the "silver promotions package" for my agency at $5000 instead of $7000, and the water will be handed out at all meals in the dining room as my agency's promotional video is displayed on the TVs."
Thim Clouder: "Well, I'll go for $1500, Bob, if I can get my agency's name on the water, AND if Brother Mac will at least 4 times mention my organization from the pulpit and display one of of our ads on the giant hi-def image screens in the Main Auditorium Monday and Tuesday night."
Bob Barker: "Thank you gentlemen! The next item up for bid....Johnny Donovan, please tell us!"
Johnny D: "Well, Bob, the next item up for bid is:
"The privilege of having your organization's name imprinted on on all pens handed out at the 2010 FBC Jax, Inc. Pastor's Conference!"
[LAUGHTER, then APPLAUSE]
Johnny D (continues): "Yes, you can have your Christian agency's name imprinted on these lovely, hand-crafted pens that will be given to each paying pastor and paying pastor's wife during the conference in their conference bag.
"Advertising your Christian agency on all the Bottled Water given to attendees at the 2010 FBC Jax, Inc. 2010 Pastor's Conference!!!! "
[Gasps, then Applause!!!]
Johnny D (continues): "Yes, gentlemen, the bidding will start at $1000 - you can take the marketing of your Christian organization to new heights by getting your name out on all bottles of water at the conference. What better way to say "We love Jesus and Jesus
LOVES our organization!" than by giving a cup of cold water...but not in Jesus name but IN YOUR AGENCY'S NAME...to those thirsty pastor's and pastor's wives at the 2010 FBC Jax, Inc. Pastor's Conference. Worried your donors will be flabbergasted at paying large advertising fees to a church? Not a problem, our church marketing experts have researched this, and are convinced your donors will be so proud you have spent their donations on such a worthy cause...as the FBC Jax, Inc. Pastor's Conference and quenching the thirst of the those pastors sweating in the Florida sunshine!! "Johnny D (continues): "And gentlemen, don't forget....wasn't it Jesus who said whoever gives a cup of cold water is truly blessed? How much bigger will the blessings be when your agency gives a big gulp of H2O to the portly pastors and their heavy helpmates? You can put your faith into action by giving out not just a measley 4 oz. cup of cold water in a breakable cup like Jesus did, but a whole 16 ounces in one beautiful, clear, non-breakable (and recyclable!) plastic bottle! "
Johnny D (continues): "As a bonus, you will get the assistance of the FBC Jax sales and church marketing team to help you design your logo for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!".....And you can get this thirst-quenching indulgence, Gentlemen, if the PRICE IS RIGHT!! "
[APPLAUSE]
Bob Barker: "Wow, thank you, Johnny. Gentlemen, your bids please: "
Al Incisor: "I'll say a thousand dollars, Bob....fifteen hundred if I can keep my speaking slot for 2011 Pastor's Conference."
Peter Paigerson: "I'll bid a thousand dollars, Bob, if I can get the "silver promotions package" for my agency at $5000 instead of $7000, and the water will be handed out at all meals in the dining room as my agency's promotional video is displayed on the TVs."
Thim Clouder: "Well, I'll go for $1500, Bob, if I can get my agency's name on the water, AND if Brother Mac will at least 4 times mention my organization from the pulpit and display one of of our ads on the giant hi-def image screens in the Main Auditorium Monday and Tuesday night."
Bob Barker: "Thank you gentlemen! The next item up for bid....Johnny Donovan, please tell us!"
Johnny D: "Well, Bob, the next item up for bid is:
"The privilege of having your organization's name imprinted on on all pens handed out at the 2010 FBC Jax, Inc. Pastor's Conference!"
[LAUGHTER, then APPLAUSE]
Johnny D (continues): "Yes, you can have your Christian agency's name imprinted on these lovely, hand-crafted pens that will be given to each paying pastor and paying pastor's wife during the conference in their conference bag.
"These beautiful pens will enhance the experience of each attendee, as they write the sermon notes given by the well-paid preachers who speak at the conference. These p
ens are made of the highest quality plastic polymers - and what better way to say "we love the children of China and the pastors at PC 2010" than to purchase these beautiful Chinese-imported pens with your agency's logo. "From the hand of the Master to the hand of the sinner", these pens communicate that you choose your adveristing options carefully. Imagine when that convert who accepts Jesus at PC 2010 fills out the card on the front pew, and they write their name in glory on that card using the pen with YOUR agency's name on it....your organization had a "hand" in writing that person's name in the book of life!!"
ens are made of the highest quality plastic polymers - and what better way to say "we love the children of China and the pastors at PC 2010" than to purchase these beautiful Chinese-imported pens with your agency's logo. "From the hand of the Master to the hand of the sinner", these pens communicate that you choose your adveristing options carefully. Imagine when that convert who accepts Jesus at PC 2010 fills out the card on the front pew, and they write their name in glory on that card using the pen with YOUR agency's name on it....your organization had a "hand" in writing that person's name in the book of life!!"Johnny D (continues): "The apostle John said he WROTE his epistle so people can know they have eternal life...and your agency spending money to provide these WRITING utensils to help pastors WRITE their notes and sermons....shows you CARE about lost souls...eternally!! And this privilege can be yours....IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT!!"
Johnny D (continues): "Bob, back to you!"
Bob: "Thanks, Johnny! Well, gentlemen, this is a tough one, how will you put a price on THIS wonderful opportunity? We'll start with you, Al:"
Al Incisor: "I'll pass, Bob. Too cheesy. Besides, we'll be
giving our own pens out at our display booth that we paid $750 for. Times are tough, and we have to cut back some where!"
Peter Paigerson: "I'll go for $750 bucks, Bob...but need an upgrade to the suite at the Omni during my stay...and a dinner at the Chart House with Maurilio during Jerry Vines' sermon this year...[Peter chuckles]."
Thim Clouder: "I'll wager $1000 of my agency's money for this one, Bob, if Maurilio can promise that the pens will be used by each of the pastor's in the foyer who are signing their books, and by Brother Mac as he signs the seminary students' bibles during his office suite tour. And I'll sign up for bottled water next year if Trey will put me in a prime-time PC 2011 speaking slot."
Peter Paigerson: "Hey, Thim, still selling copies of that devilish book 'The Shack' in your stores? Heh, heh..."
Bob Barker: "OK, thank you, Gentlemen....Johnny...what is our last item up for bid?"
Johnny D: Well, Bob, this last item is sure to "bag" the attention of the PC 2010 attendees:
"The privilege of having your agency logo imprinted on the canvas bag containing all conference materials."
Johnny D: Well, Bob, this last item is sure to "bag" the attention of the PC 2010 attendees:
"The privilege of having your agency logo imprinted on the canvas bag containing all conference materials."
[Amens, then Applause]
Johnny D (continues): "Attendees will receive your canvas bag (with your logo) at check-in filled
with all the conference materials. Attendees usually carry these bags around the entire conference, keeping your name before everyone the entire time. After the conference, your bag is a reminder that goes home with them. " [direct quote from PC2010 website]. You all know how tiring it can be for these pastors to lug around the books they've purchased from the conference speakers and the CD's purchased from the singers that their church will be paying for when they expense it all...and your bag will be a reminder to these pastors of your organization's generosity in helping them maintain their strength for the trip home and next Sunday's sermon.Johnny D (continues): This super sack of blessings can be yours, gentlemen....IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT!
Bob: Thanks Johnny! Gentlemen, your bids please! Bids must start at $2000.
Peter Paigerson: Well, Bob, I will go for the full $2000, if we can bring in Jim "Jesus" Caviezel in like you did in 2007, and have him endorse my seminary as the most favored one in the convention...and he must do it in his Jesus outfit, of course! [Peter chuckles].
Al Incisor: I'll go for $2000, Bob, if I can get an extra power strip and two badges for our display table.
Thim Clouder: "I like the Jim "Jesus" Caviezel idea - I'll go for $3000 for the bag, along with a Jim "Jesus" Caviezel endorsement of our new product line in the Sunday morning conference service, and a banner display in the 'Snack Area'. "
Bob: "Thank you gentlemen for your bids. And the winners are.....well.....we will have to have our promotions firm Conexus get with each of you later to put the finishing touches on the bids and negotiate the "winners". Johnny, back to you!"
Johnny D: Thanks, Bob, and thanks to our contestants for this special edition of "The Price is Right! We'll see everyone next year!!!"
Bob: Thanks Johnny! Gentlemen, your bids please! Bids must start at $2000.
Peter Paigerson: Well, Bob, I will go for the full $2000, if we can bring in Jim "Jesus" Caviezel in like you did in 2007, and have him endorse my seminary as the most favored one in the convention...and he must do it in his Jesus outfit, of course! [Peter chuckles].
Al Incisor: I'll go for $2000, Bob, if I can get an extra power strip and two badges for our display table.
Thim Clouder: "I like the Jim "Jesus" Caviezel idea - I'll go for $3000 for the bag, along with a Jim "Jesus" Caviezel endorsement of our new product line in the Sunday morning conference service, and a banner display in the 'Snack Area'. "
Bob: "Thank you gentlemen for your bids. And the winners are.....well.....we will have to have our promotions firm Conexus get with each of you later to put the finishing touches on the bids and negotiate the "winners". Johnny, back to you!"
Johnny D: Thanks, Bob, and thanks to our contestants for this special edition of "The Price is Right! We'll see everyone next year!!!"
**********
"Jesus entered the temple area. He began chasing out all those who were buying and selling there. He turned over the tables of the people who were exchanging money. He also turned over the benches of those who were selling doves. He said to them, "It is written that the Lord said, 'My house will be called a house where people can pray.' But you are making it a 'den for robbers.'" (Mat 21:12-13)
57 comments:
Johnny D's quickly becoming one of my favorites.
This is the first time I have ever visited this website and so I do not know you, anyone in your church or your pastor.
I am sorry that there is nothing about Christ and His church that gives you joy in life.
It saddens me to see on each of the posts that I have read from looking all the way back in your archives over the past three years a spirit of hostility and divisiveness expressed.
I want you to know that I am praying for you today that God would give you relief from such bitterness and that you would find your full pleasure in Christ.
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
Hi Joe, welcome to the blog.
Lighten up, will ya? I have plenty of joy in my heart. I'm a born again believer like I assume you are, and have the joy of the Lord in my heart! This is funny...I'm sure you enjoy parody from time to time, and that's what this is. It's demonstrating the absurd by being absurd.
So please, don't judge me, as I'm not judging you for making assumptions about me that are wrong, when you don't know me.
Peace, brother.
Wow, knew this article was going to get attention.
Amazing that now many are now coming on saying "this is the first time I have ever visited this website". Yeah, right!
Agreed - the Admiral and the former judge could have used this verse before they run their mouth to the journalist at the Florida Times Union whose article made national new that "benefited those who read."
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
Wonder if SWBTS is going to have a booth and sell camo 'take the hill' shirts?
They peddle the Gospel for profit. And yes, Joe, that is divisive and a mockery of our Lord.
You have probably been taught to be a good little follower and never question the authorities. They rely on folks like you to build THEIR personal kingdoms.
The creativity is refreshing but you sure must spend a lot of time obsessing with Mac and what he is doing. Hopefully you are being as creative in your new church. I'm sure your pastor includes you in all decision making. If not, he will be sorry.
I tend to agree with Joe though. Its not what you say with your lips that proves your happiness but that which you post on your blog. And your blog says you are hostile and divisive.
No insightful commentary on the underlying issue...selling advertising within the walls of a church.
Just more of the same: name calling, making wrong assumptions about the writer and my church and my pastor.
Doesn't surprise me. When you don't want to deal with the issues at hand, attack the messenger.
Joe is a fake post.
Yea right, no one just happens upon this blog, reads ALL the past posts and entries and then concludes with "they feel sorry for the lack of Christian love, joy..." blah, blah, blah.
Another fake post by the Mac side trying a different tactic. Cause they're deparate - that's why!
Why don't the Mac supporters try a new tactic. Defend Mac's positions and behavior.
I don't think they know enough scripture in context to do such a thing. All they can do is parrot what they have been taught.
Joe said at September 29, 2009 10:08 AM
I want you to know that I am praying for you today that God would give you relief from such bitterness and that you would find your full pleasure in Christ.
Ephesians 4:29 (NIV)
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
Joe, I don't know Dog or even if we crossed paths while I attended FBC Jax, so I only know him from these blogs. He doesn't seem overly bitter, if bitter at all. Might seem that way until you get to know him, try it for a while and if it doesn't sit right with you, don't come back. No harm, no hard feelings.
As far as the Eph quote, some of Dogs critics say this entire blog is unwholesome because it goes against the grain. But is this blog building others up? I would venture to say that it is a small step against a mighty giant.
Dog, this post has been one of my favorites. I am ashamed to know that I once walked the halls and sat in the auditorium for worship, and have seen several PC that left me speechless, now to be degraded to a pathetic sales convention.
I live in Little Rock, I hope the stupid doesn't spread this far and infect our area churches.
(Sorry Tom, I can be brash at times.)
My post was not a fake post.
I am not judging you because I do not know you, but I am judging the content of your weblog.
After all we are called to judge one another's actions as believers. I do believe that the bible teaches us this.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (NIV)
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside."
I sincerely meant what I posted and I never claimed to read all the posts but of the posts that I did take time to read all I see is divisiveness and contempt.
I'm sorry if I do not take lightly divisiveness and criticism of the Lord's Bride.
After all as someone once was quoted, Josh Harris I think, "You can not say you love Jesus and hate his wife."
I do not know who Mr. Brunseon is nor anything about this church but was referred by someone who asked about what was going on which I am unsure of and does not concern me.
I am not here to defend either side but to point to the need for pointing to the glory of Christ and His church.
Matthew 12:36-37 (NIV)
"But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
If you do not believe me that is fine because Christ knows my motives and heartfelt concern and He will judge me one day.
Thanks, Joe. You're welcome to post here anytime. Take care.
I'm sure your pastor includes you in all decision making. If not, he will be sorry.
__________________________________
You are "sure?" Tom has been at his new church for several months now and I don't believe Tom is included in "all decision making." So your implications and conclusions are faulty and illogical.
"I tend to agree with Joe though. Its not what you say with your lips that proves your happiness but that which you post on your blog. And your blog says you are hostile and divisive."
___________________________________
Really? It's not what you say with your lips that proves your happiness, but that which you post on your blog? Really? The blog is more credible and indicative of the truth? Really? So a blog is credible after all. Even more credible then what a man says. Great to know that. So, I will read this blog more closely now. And I thought Tom's blog said he was happy. But you don't believe what he just blogged about being happy? Which is it? Please, Mac supporters, start thinking logically and systematically. You are embarrassing yourselves. Which is probably why the leaders don't want you blogging here.
Thank you for the gracious invitation but I think I will respectfully decline your invitation.
This will be my first and last day.
I am sincerely praying for you, your church and your pastor with the apostle Paul that...
Ephesians 3:16-21 (NIV)
16 "out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen."
After all we are called to judge one another's actions as believers. I do believe that the bible teaches us this.
___________________________________
Thanks for this gem, Joe. So many have said since the WD is no longer a member, he has no business in blogging about FBC Jax abuses anymore. I agree with you.
But then you add this gem: "was referred by someone who asked about what was going on which I am unsure of and does not concern me."
It does not "concern you?" How is that consistent with your gem above?
I don't know who is right or who is wrong in this debate, but I sure can tell who is consistent and logical and who is isn't.
I wonder how many of the yes men leaders are either unwilling to defend their pastor; are incapable of logically defending their pastor; or are willing and able but are just plain old COWARDS. Yeah, they can scorn you in public, and ignore you and shun you when they see you based on what they have been told, but man they don't dare post their name here and try to make a coherent defense of the abuses taking place under their watch. You men are a disgrace to yourselves, your wives, and your God. Just my opinion, officer, based on what I have read and seen. Amen?
I am not from Florida nor Jacksonville so I am not sure what WD means?
My concern is not over whatever are the issues but at how our the church as a whole is perceived before the world and Jesus Christ.
I stand by my statement that I am not here to judge one side or the other since I am not involved with this debate and have no dog in this hunt but that does not mean it cannot be judged by godly believers who are involved with the issues.
My posting is with a concern about the spirit of the blog and not about the details of the issues.
Maybe the pastor is wrong and this blogger is right, maybe the blogger is wrong and the pastor is right, maybe both are wrong and no one is right.
My point is that if you read this blog to those who know nothing about what is going on it seems overly bitter and critical on both sides.
Just my perspective which matters little.
"I'm sorry if I do not take lightly divisiveness and criticism of the Lord's Bride."
This is true. How would you describe the Bride? Any building with a steeple? He also said He would present a PURE Bride to Himself. We should start there. Clean house.
"After all as someone once was quoted, Josh Harris I think, "You can not say you love Jesus and hate his wife.""
Josh Harris is not a great example. He is extreme authoritarian and part of SGM which is right now under great scrutiny for their treatment of victims of sexual abuse in their churches.
In one situation (there are many) a 16 year old SGM nursery worker raped a 3 year old. Instead of calling the authorities, SGM told the victim's parents they were bitter for not immediately forgiving the rapist. They said he was only experimenting.
You may want to check out those you are promoting as godly. CJ Mahaney and Josh Harris are part of the problem in Christendom with the authoritarian if you say anything negative even if true you are bitter and divisive.
You do sound like an SGM parrot. There are several sites committed to the SGM survivors of their spiritual abuse:
SGM Survivors
SGM Refuge
BTW: CJ Mahaney is a product of the spiritually abusive shepherding movement of the 70's. He was in People of Destiny. He simply changed the name to Sovereign Grace Ministries when he broke with his partner.
"I stand by my statement that I am not here to judge one side or the other since I am not involved with this debate and have no dog in this hunt but that does not mean it cannot be judged by godly believers who are involved with the issues."
YOu are backpeddling. Your first comment was very judgemental without knowing facts or caring about facts. Perhaps you do not care about facts and think blatent mocking of our Lord should be swept under the carpet because the authorities can never be wrong.
You called this blog a 'spirit of hostility and divisiveness.
The words 'spirit of' this or that are definitely part of SGM speak. They use it for everything.
Too many people taking splinters out of the eyes while ignoring logs here for me.
Colossians 1:9-14 (NIV)
9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Joe
The Dog is unwholesome?? WHAT??
OK and you tell me where Mac is wholesome. Go ahead, we are waiting. Oh and you must explain without saying something nasty about the WD. We know you do that so well but that certainly wouldn't be answering the question, now would it? (as usual).
Joe,
The SGM leadership quoted a lot of scripture when they told the mom of the 3 year old little girl who was raped to immediately forgive and forget. (oh and not call in the civil authorities because the leaders would handle it while they chastized the parents! And excused the rapist as just experimenting. Calling the civil authorities would be seeking vengence they said while quoting scripture)
They probably told her about the log in her eye, too.
So, go back to your SGM friends where scripture is a club used to promote the authorities and beat up followers with proof texts and cover over their own sin.
So, we get your point. Anyone who points out evil in the Body is in sin. Those who commit the evil are not because they have some special anointing that makes it ok for them to peddle the Gospel for personal gain. We get you.
Wow, why is everyone so quick to vilify on this post.
At first I am accused of a fake post to take Mr. Brunseon's side.
Now I am accused of supporting what ever SGM is and their improper handling of sexual abuse.
I am not even sure Harris is the person who said the quote for sure.
I heard somewhere that someone thought it was him.
How about this instead from a early church father Cyprian then, and in no way am I agreeing with everything Cyprian taught or did by quoting him; "One can not call God father who does not have the church as his mother" or something along those lines.
I think the responses by others, not FBC Jax Watchdog because he has been somewhat gracious besides the comment on no insightful commentary, have given evidence to what I originally posted.
Joe,
You are learning a valuable lesson. They dissect anyone who disagrees with them, cast stones at Mac when they don't even know him, and make Tom out to be a maligned martyr.
Get prepared because there's lots more coming.
And please don't call me a Mac supporter because I know him personally and don't like him.
Joe - don't listen to that Anon. We have healthy debate here.
I am raked over the coals here most every day, and I don't complain about it.
If you want to hear a martry, listen to Mac most any sermon. Its all about how he is misunderstood, and has to bear the heavy burden of being a mega church pastor. Its pathetic.
And I don't fly in on a private jet Johnny Hunt to speak to my supporters to shore up my support and tell everyone how much "God's man" I am....more to come on this, so stay tuned...
I guess we have that in common FBC Jax.
I think I am done with this day of posting.
Thank you for letting me participate and to quote one more person...
Horton the elephant from Dr. Suess...
"I meant what I said and said what I meant" :)
I am praying for you that you would be filled with all the fullness of Christ.
God Bless.
Joe
Joe,
Are you aware or read on the blog that Brunson wrote in his Pastors Guidebook NOT to accept expensive gifts, live in executive homes, or drive luxury cars.
Why is it ok for him to do this while he is instructing other pastors NOT to do it?
In the same book he says that if a pastor has an unhappy church member to meet with them PERSONALLY. Brunson turned down 2 opportunities to do just that.
Why is it ok for him to do this while he is instructing other pastors NOT to do it?
Why is it ok for him to say loudly that he is accountable to no one when scripture clearly states we all are?
Joe, you said Christians should judge one another's actions. Tom is pointing out actions of the church and Brunson which appear contrary to scripture or hypocritical.
Why is it ok for you to point out what you think is wrong on Tom's part but not ok for Tom to point out the same about the church and Brunson???????
NO ONE will answer the questions I have re the Pastor's Guidebook and Brunson's actions and why it is ok.
Joe welcome too the blog.
But let me give you some advice!
Before you can make an informed opinion/decision of either Dr.Dog or Mac Brunson you will need to go back and read all if not most of the past posts.
Pastors are to be honored if they lead well[1Tim.5:17-20]!!!
But Mac has demonstreated time and time again that he does not lead well!!!
"NO ONE will answer the questions I have referenced in the Pastor's Guidebook and Brunson's actions and why it is ok."
September 29, 2009 12:45 PM
I agree with the above request!!!
Will at least one Brunson supporter please just attempt to anwser the above Anon questions!!!
Maybe those of us who support Tom may have missed something!!!
Joe,
Are you a politican?
Nope, and do care much for politicians either.
Just a preacher and a cattle farmer who hails from the hills of the Ozarks.
How much must I pay to get my name and ministry mentioned by the emcee on the platform? - JESUS
John2: 15-17(Message) Jesus put together a whip out of strips of leather and chased them out of the Temple, stampeding the sheep and cattle, upending the tables of the loan sharks, spilling coins left and right. He told the dove merchants, "Get your things out of here! Stop turning my Father's house into a shopping mall!" That's when his disciples remembered the Scripture, "Zeal for your house consumes me."
Dear Jesus:
Sorry to say, but its over $100,000 to get your name mentioned...that is if you add up all the speaking fees and travel expenses paid to the high-profile, big named celebrity preachers that are being flown in and put up at the Omni downtown, and then paid a healthy stipend.
Here is Mark's version. Sound familiar to FBC Jax and the treatment of Tom by the pharisees?:
Mark 11:15 - On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
" 'My house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations'[c]? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'[d]"
18The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him
The message says verse 18 like this:
18 The high priests and religion scholars heard what was going on and plotted how they might get rid of him. THEY PANICKED, FOR THE ENTIRE CROWD WAS CARRIED AWAY BY HIS TEACHING.
It is appalling enough that the church is acting as an ad agency, but the car salesman wording to sell the canvas bag, pen, and water ads is unbelievable.
"Our communications department can work with your team to produce the logos and get them on the bottles."
To add insult to injury, the wording of at least one of the "ads selling ads" sounds like it was written by Gomer Pyle. If the church is going to embarrass itself by selling ads, at least get a professional writer to compose the sales literature. If this is the work of the "communications" team, I certainly would not want them working on my ads.
Off Topic:
The Official Google Docs Blog > View online files using the Google Docs Viewer.
View pdf, powerpoint and tiff files in the browser.
Examples:
Discipline Letter #1.
Discipline Letter #2.
FBC Jax Trespass Warnings.
That Johnny D. is a real card! I like this post, Tom. Informative, funny - makes the point very well. PRICE IS RIGHT indeed.
Joe welcome to Jacksonville Florida and the kind people who live here. One thing: be a fruit inspector. Thats what you, I and every Christian is to do. We will judge angels in the future so a little baptist preacher or some deacons at present is childs play. I Cor 6:2-3.
When I first came on this site, I cringed, too, from all the acrimony. But I was curious about why the blog was here in the first place and went back to see WD (Watchdog's) account of what happened to him. When I saw the extremes thet the church leadership went to, to shut him down, I began to smell something familiar: authoritarianism with a very strictly enforced Don't Talk Rule, common in abusive churches. I took the time, unpleasant though it was at times, to look back at old posts and actually saw what had happened to this church and this mans' family. This blog is unpleasant. But it's unpleasant because this church is full of dead men's bones and WD has had the nerve to lift the lids from the gleaming white sepulchres. It stinks, but it stinks because this reflection of the bride seen at FBC JAX is acting like a harlot. The first step in cleaning up a church is to strip off the filth. To do that, you have to peel away the caked on make-up. All these conferences and marketing schemes are layer upon layer of make-up on the face of Aholibah. Don't blame WD for the filth.
As long as we're throwing scripture around, here's one more:
Micah 3
Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity...The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
Looks like standard convention lingo...
I do not get the outrage?
Pastor's go to conventions to see what is out there and to get ideas for reaching the lost. They are going to buy printing, music, programs and etc. from somewhere. Why can't they use a "convention" as a resource?
Maybe there is something I am missing? Do I have to be against this or lose my salvation?
I don't get the article either. Not very funny. Maybe if it were a youtube video or something.
Jimmy - I agree. Standard marketing gimmicks used by business conventions...and even Christian conventions and concerts. But not the SBC annual convention. And I know of no other church anywhere, certainly no SBC church, that is selling advertising in their worship center, in their foyer, and in their dining area. I know of no church or any house of worship in any religion, that is selling the privilege of having an organization's name verbally mentioned from the worship center platform...if I am wrong, please let me know who has done this.
That is the point of these posts to shine a light on this...to show the absurdity of selling advertising in a church, so that hopefully there will be no other churches who get the same bright idea and follow FBC Jax. Let's pray that no Christian ministry will actually spend their ministry dollars making these purchases from FBC Jax. If they do, we'll be sure to let the WD readers know who it is that decided to make these wasteful purchases. As I said last night, I'd rather see Chik Fil-A and The Omni Hotel and other local businesses pay this money to FBC Jax, than I would to see Christian ministries forking over their ministry dollars to FBC Jax for these indulgences.
Third Cousin Twice Removed Tom
Why did Jesus turn over the money tables? Gee, the little guys were just trying to make a buck and then he causes a big stink for nothing. It is interesting that very few people who post as Brother mac supporters will not answer the questions placed on this blog. I guess there thinking begins and ends at protecting the Lord's annointed.
If I remember correctly, the temple dudes were not pleased with His actions and continued to plan for his demise. I bet some who post here would do the same if it was legal.
Hang in there brother. You are making a difference.
Does anyone understand or believe how HOLY the name of JESUS is? Please people have some respect when referring to the SAVIOR!!!! Some usage of His name in parody is next to sacrilegious.
It is also interesting how the Mac Supporters never actually DEFEND Mac, they just attack the WD
I think Provender gave a very astute characterization. I would add that FBC Jax, unfortunately isn't the only "harlot" out there. Too many other mega churches are as well. And I don't get it. I just don't get how they have so many people fooled. I mean real believers that are fooled and that fill these churches.
Perhaps Matt has an answer.
"I think Provender gave a very astute characterization. I would add that FBC Jax, unfortunately isn't the only "harlot" out there. Too many other mega churches are as well. And I don't get it. I just don't get how they have so many people fooled. I mean real believers that are fooled and that fill these churches."
September 29, 2009 9:30 PM
Anon as I have posted previously none of us should be surprise at how many people are fooled by these deceptive men in pulpits.
Jesus as I have previously blogged multiple times predicted at the beginning and the end of His three years of ministry,that the majority(many)would succumb to wolves dress as sheep preaching feigned(plastic)words to lead the many astray for sordid gain(money)!
It is truly a sad senerio when countless,undiscerning people both saved and unsaved have no clue as to the severe warnings of Scripture that reveal these coming abuses of men professing to be leaders,pastors,elders,etc!!!
Just as with Jesus,the Apostle,the disciples and the Godly of every era;corrupt men will not acknowledge their wrong doing,they just attempt to silence the messenger!!!
One does not have to know you to judge you sir. It is what comes out of a man that defiles him and you have given much evidence to be judged.
"Pastor's go to conventions to see what is out there and to get ideas for reaching the lost."
We don't need ideas. We have the Holy Spirit guiding us and many examples in scripture.
What they are doing is trying to find new ideas to "market" their church or ministry. This conference is just a natural part of the church growth movement wrapped in noble words.
Church means 'called out ones' as in ekklesia. It is a body of BELIEVERS. We share the Gospel 'out there' and those who believe naturally want to be with other believers and that is what makes a 'church'. It is comprised of believers at different levels of maturity. The seasoned believers start other Bodies of believers.
We have turned the NT process around. We market a "church" (not the Gospel) and invite unbelievers to come and hopefully they will eventually become believers.
This has become so much the norm that folks cannot see the problems with it.
That is why our churches are filled with professing Christians who do not have a clue about salvation. The reason is that pastors must water down the hard truths (If they understand them) for unbelievers or they will leave and there goes the money and big numbers.
But what you have left is a social and politcal club of sorts doing some good works. And people love to be a part of something big.
Matt
"I mean real believers that are fooled and that fill these churches."
In the shallow mega world many of the leaders believe that only a small percentage are real Christians. As I wrote before, their hope is that if they stick around long enough they will become real Christians. (Even after baptism) But they have it backwards and do not realize they are the problem.
Some put the number at about 10% Others put it at 3%. They measure it based on total involvement. And we all know there is no such measure for Holiness.
I thought I was saved. With the help of the father of lies, we can really fool ourselves. I believed the right things but had no power of the Holy Spirit in my life. I was like an educated dead man. I knew the scripture but it was dead to me. Facts on a page. It was intellectual Christianity. Think of the malpractice all those years. Claiming to be something I was not. It was ignorance.
Jesus tells us that true believers KNOW His voice and follow Him. I knew all about Jesus Christ. But I did not KNOW Him. (Echos of Matthew 7 in my head)
If we are truly seeking the Kingdom as we are told to do, we WILL find it. But seeking it is hard work. Hours of prayer and study. But it is not comfortable because folks, your fellow professing Christians, will think you have gone barking mad....but the joy is still in KNOWING HIM.
That is why it is so important to tell folks to test everything they are taught. You cannot spot a counterfeit unless you know the real thing.
Matt
A much used example of someone being saved is the thief on the cross. He, as we know, had no time to study "being saved". Salvation, as we also know, has nothing to do with works, but everything to do with trusting Jesus and believing that He died on the cross in order that our sins would be forgiven, that He rose again and is on the right hand of the Father, and that He will come again to receive us unto Himself. Faith totally faith! The Holy Spirit leads us to desire to know Jesus. This is why little children who cannot possibly know deep intellectual things, can be saved.
Rom.10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". vs.10: "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation".
Rom.10:13: "For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".
As we see, we do not have to work, seek, study, prove worthy or any other action to be saved. That is why Jesus sacrificed Himself for us, because we could DO NOTHING to save ourselves. The studying comes AFTER we are saved. The searching His word for His truths and promises, and the DEEP things of the word are the RESULT of the original decision to trust Jesus to save us. We do not have to study and search, and prove anything in order to be saved. It's all strictly on faith. Because before we are saved we don't know what to search for. After we are saved, if we grow as a christian, then we want to know more about the Savior. But it all starts as a little child...by faith.
Exactly! Why do we need MAN's ideas for saving the lost. Isn't that entirely the Bible - relying on the Spirit, leaning on God, etc. and NOT MAN! This is exactly counter to what they "preach" from the pulpits, yet here they are - handing our money hand over fist to "learn" other ways of so-called reaching the lost. AS IF! I don't trust one person that attends these conferences, I don't care how big-time their name is. In fact, the bigger their name, the more shameful they should feel. But of course, they won't because it's all about the money with these Hollywood wanna-be's. And make NO mistake - that is precisely what they are. Otherwise, they wouldn't demand the exorbatant salaries and demand name-recognition.
Matt and Bro. Rod - nailed it!
Thanks for the great work.
Thanks Matt,
Your thoughts in your following paragraph gave me "flashback" for when the Preacher first arrived at FBCJ he "himself" baptised one hundred plus (100+) one after another.
I recall thinking what a shameful performance from a leader to belittle baptism into making it a building block of numbers,
Sad, as the people were run through the baptism service like cattle, from my humble perspective.
And the people cheered and applauded - that was ony the beginning of our introduction to many changes being brought from Texas to Florida.
Thanks again Matt - appreciate your "kind" words of wisdom.
__________________________________
"In the shallow mega world many of the leaders believe that only a small percentage are real Christians. As I wrote before, their hope is that if they stick around long enough they will become real Christians. (Even after baptism) But they have it backwards and do not realize they are the problem".
"A much used example of someone being saved is the thief on the cross. He, as we know, had no time to study "being saved". "
This is a very good point. What I was speaking of were those who have been in church, heard or even preach the shallow platitudes and think their "decision", baptism and church attendance is what makes them saved. They believe the basic Gospel but do not KNOW Jesus Christ intimately.
Like most of us, I used to believe if someone went to seminary and was in ministry they were most definitely saved. I no longer believe that. Ministry can be a career path just like being an engineer or accountant.
Trust me, if they did know Jesus Christ intimately, they could not continue in willful, consistent sin. Even moreso, they would recognize and grieve the sin they are now desensitized to.
The longer one is truly saved, the deeper we know is our sin.
Matt
Matt: This explanation I agree with. You have clarified your point. Thanks.
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