"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Wednesday, May 18, 2011

Inside Story: Ergun Caner Was Finally Shown the Door by Liberty Officials

Ergun Caner posted a press release on his website to announce that he is being hired as the Provost and Vice President of Arlington Baptist College in Arlington, Texas. ABC is a tiny bible college of about 115 students.

I have an inside source at Liberty University who has shared with me some of the details behind Ergun Caner's departure from Liberty to join ABC. In the interest of closure in this saga and some sense of disclosure on what Liberty finally did with Caner, I share this information that was shared with me by a reliable source.

Caner was finally forced out at Liberty by several of the trustees and a number of faculty members who gave an ultimatum of some sort to the administration that it was either Caner who had to leave, or them. My source tells me it was not unanimous with the trustees in forcing Caner to leave. In fact the majority wanted to keep him, but the straw that broke the camel's back was his refusal to make a public apology for the repeated lying of parts of his life's story. Thus, with no willingness to make a public apology, Caner was told he had to leave.

So Caner moves on to the next chapter of his life. The more fundamentalist World Baptist Fellowship churches and members, and the very small school to which Caner is moving, likely hasn't followed the shenanigans last year with Caner very closely. Perhaps those that hired him are believing whatever his version of events are - plus most independent fundamental baptists don't have a high regard for the "liberal" SBC'ers anyways.

How sad that in the "press release" announcing Caner's hiring at ABC, they actually quote evangelist and Marine Vietnam Vet Tim Lee - a staple evangelist amongst independent baptist churches - and Tim Lee tells everyone just how wonderful Ergun Caner is! Does Tim Lee understand that Ergun Caner duped our U.S. Marines in 2005 when he conducted training sessions as some sort of Muslim culture expert who grew up in Turkey?

From the press release:
"Evangelist Tim Lee said, 'I have learned that my good friend, Dr Ergun Caner has accepted the position of Executive Vice-President and Provost at Arlington Baptist College in Arlington, TX. I am excited for Arlington Baptist College! They could not have made a better choice. I believe Ergun will have a very positive impact and that it will be realized immediately! Both Arlington Baptist College and Dr Ergun Caner have my support!' "
But this is the good thing about the Internet: no matter who they get to speak on Caner's behalf, what transpired last year on the blogs in exposing Caner's lies is still here for anyone who is interested in the truth to read, Tim Lee endorsement or not.

In the end, it was arrogance that did Caner in. He could have humbled himself earlier last year when the story was still breaking. I called on Caner to do it, and he could have salvaged his reputation and his ministry with the students at Liberty.

Instead he chose to be defiant and silent, while his friends went into full attack mode against those who called for Caner to come clean. It was a shameful chapter in the life of the SBC that won't soon be forgotten.

And really, isn't the arrogance in full display again with the issuance of a "press release"? Go figure: the man is leaving Liberty after being demoted last year, and moving to an extremely small, mostly obscure school in Arlington Texas that most Baptists have never heard of with maybe 100 students or so....yet he figures that someone of his stature requires a "press release" to announce his hiring at this very small school.

Let's hope that Caner has learned his lesson and the fantastic stories of his past will be buried at Lynchburg. And we can at least be thankful that he is out of the SBC, and that some folks at Liberty in the end did the right thing.

164 comments:

Thy Peace said...

I honestly do not think Caner has learned his lesson. This is mainly due to his enablers and Caner's pride. And his book sales revenue. For if he apologized, then he would have to retract portions of his books and I am afraid they are still required reading. My guess is Caner makes more in book sales revenue than in his post at Liberty U.

Maybe Mac Brunson can update this book, Why Churches Die: Diagnosing Lethal Poisons in the Body of Christ By Mac Brunson, Ergun Caner.

Can SBC allow James White to come back to his teaching position at Golden Gate Seminary now?

Anonymous said...

So sad. An apology with a full airing of his history would have been better.

I don't consider leaving Liberty to mean that Caner is out of the SBC.

Liberty is not in the SBC (I don't think?).

He may still speak at SBC churches and still has friends in the SBC.

Louis

Guess Who said...

You know this probably going to sting Ergun for a while and in more ways than one.

He is leaving a school that had a residential enrollment of almost 12000 to a school with about 250 total enrollment. That means his new schools budget based on a $7340 yearly tuition cost has a max budget of approx $1.8 million and that is only if all the 250 enrolled are full time. So his huge liberty salary and perks are now being replaced with a smaller salary and probably not so many perks.

The school by all appearances appears to be very strict and stuffy (you know like the schools/Christians he made fun of), so his off color jokes about women and minorities, the WWF, talking about sex with his wife in class and other mess will probably not be tolerated. I wonder what they think of all his tattoos? So now all of his freedom appears to be gone!

He has gone from speaking to a stadium size crowd to speaking to a small gathering in a what appears to be cafegymatorium (http://lockerz.com/s/102799681)!

I find it kind of funny that he has lied himself right out of a good thing and if he would have just been apologetic and stopped being pig headed he would probably of still have it made.

Anonymous said...

He is coming to Texas? Great. All we need is another Baptist whose head is almost too large to fit in the state itself, much less in the DFW area.

Anonymous said...

Your facts about ABC are incorrect. It seems Caner isn't the only one having difficulty with the truth.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - please, you have the freedom to post correct information if you have it. If I'm wrong, let me know. Unlike Caner, most of us are willing to admit if we have something wrong.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...
Your facts about ABC are incorrect. It seems Caner isn't the only one having difficulty with the truth.
May 19, 2011 1:40 AM"

What exactly is wrong about what has been posted about ABC

Anonymous said...

I wonder why the staff did not give the ultimatum sooner and I wish we could know what his response was. Was he defiant till the end?

Anonymous said...

Good job, WD! You saw this sad example of how integrity is lacking in SBC leadership through to the end! How much more of this hypocrisy goes on that we don't know about?

Anonymous said...

"He is coming to Texas? Great. All we need is another Baptist whose head is almost too large to fit in the state itself, much less in the DFW area."




Right. Esp. considering that air space is already occupied by staff and members of First Baptist Dallas.

Anonymous said...

You guys should thank the Ga Blogger for marching into Lynchburg and demanding Caner be dealt with.

I know this to be a fact.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

"You guys"? Who?

And who is the "Ga Blogger" who went into Lynchburg and got things straight???

Tom Parker said...

WD:

You said:"Instead he chose to be defiant and silent, while his friends went into full attack mode against those who called for Caner to come clean. It was a shameful chapter in the life of the SBC that won't soon be forgotten."

I wonder how his friends are spinning his "leaving".

Dr Ergun Caner (satire) said...

I'm curious about the timing. Why now? He was demoted a year ago.

I wonder if there is anything to the "GA blogger" claim? If so, I'd be very curious who the mystery man is.

Anonymous said...

Ask the Wartburg ladies, they know who made that trip to Lynchburg VA last year

Anonymous said...

"And who is the "Ga Blogger" who went into Lynchburg and got things straight???"

Are you curious or does it matter?

Anonymous said...

Yes ABC is a small school with a history of strict rules and doesnt have near the budget of Liberty but if you read the full article on the press release he wasnt the only new person hired. The school hired a new president last year and are in the process of completely revamping the college. They are aware of Erguns problem at liberty but whether the accusations are true or false its a great move by the college in effort to increase their notoriety. Also no matter what anyone says Ergun is a brilliant christian mind and would be loathed by any Baptist college or university (Libertys enrollment tripled after his hiring). Also keep in mind ABC has large support with deep pockets they do not strictly run off tuition. Good move by the college and Mr. Caner

Tim Lee said...

JAX Watchdog, I do not know you however I have read your blog on occasion. I believe you are serious when wanting to correct wrongs that have been made in churches.

However, it seems like you are angry at Ergun and even have a personal grudge.

I have been on the board of Trustees of Liberty University since 1991 and I have served on the Seminary Committee all of that time.

Your sensational headline says Ergun Caner was finally shown the door by Liberty Officials. Well that is sure titillating but its false. No one showed Ergun the door. He was presented with a new contract for the new school years just a few days ago and he turned it down. I spent hundreds of hours dealing with this situation and I can assure you that on many occasions Jerry Falwell Jr expressed a strong interest that he wanted Ergun to remain at Liberty University.

It was Ergun's decision to leave. No on pushed him out. No one threatened him in to leaving. So you are wrong on this matter.

Then in an amusing part of your article you make a big deal how Ergun was going to such a small-tiny place compared to Liberty. I may be mistaken but I thought it was your life's work to try to destroy and bring down to size these big churches that you seem to disdain so much.

I would think you would be happy for a brother who is going to a small work in order to pour his life into that place to bring it back to a right and respected school. Or is it that you hate Ergun so much that you could never find any good at all and could never say a word or praise on his behalf.

Now for your statements, lets look at them.

you say:I have an inside source at Liberty University who has shared with me some of the details behind Ergun Caner's departure from Liberty to join ABC. In the interest of closure in this saga and some sense of disclosure on what Liberty finally did with Caner, I share this information that was shared with me by a reliable source.


I am saying that your reliable source is completely unreliable.

You said:Caner was finally forced out at Liberty by several of the trustees and a number of faculty members who gave an ultimatum of some sort to the administration that it was either Caner who had to leave, or them. My source tells me it was not unanimous with the trustees in forcing Caner to leave. In fact the majority wanted to keep him, but the straw that broke the camel's back was his refusal to make a public apology for the repeated lying of parts of his life's story. Thus, with no willingness to make a public apology, Caner was told he had to leave.


There is so much information here that is in error.

I was the Chairman of the committee that crafted the statement concerning Ergun. We never once found that he lied.There was 5 men on the committee and 1 eventually removed himself leaving us with 4. Here is the statement that was unanimously approved and accepted by Jerry Falwell SR.

AFTER A THOROUGH AND EXHAUSTIVE REVIEW OF DR. ERGUN CANER’S PUBLIC STATEMENTS, A COMMITTEE CONSISTING OF FIVE MEMBERS OF LIBERTY UNIVERSITY’S
BOARD OF TRUSTEES HAS CONCLUDED THAT DR. CANER HAS MADE FACTUAL STATEMENTS
THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY. HOWEVER, THE COMMITTEE FOUND NO EVIDENCE TO
SUGGEST THAT DR. CANER WAS NOT A MUSLIM WHO CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY AS A
TEENAGER BUT INSTEAD FOUND DISCREPANCIES RELATED TO MATTERS SUCH AS DATES,
NAMES AND PLACES OF RESIDENCE. DR. CANER HAS COOPERATED WITH THE BOARD COMMITTEE AND HAS APOLOGIZED FOR THE DISCREPANCIES AND MISSTATEMENTS THAT LED TO THIS REVIEW. DR. CANER’S CURRENT CONTRACTUAL TERM AS DEAN OF LIBERTY
BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY EXPIRES ON JUNE 30, 2010. DR. CANER WILL NO LONGER SERVE AS DEAN OF LIBERTY BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY. THE UNIVERSITY HAS OFFERED AND DR. CANER HAS ACCEPTED AN EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT FOR THE 2010-2011 ACADEMIC YEAR. DR. CANER WILL REMAIN ON THE FACULTY OF
LIBERTY BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY AS A PROFESSOR.

Part 1
Tim Lee
Evangelist

Tim Lee said...

Part 2
Tim Lee
Evangelist

We put our support behind Ergun and he was offered a contract to teach again on Liberty Mountain.

Ergun Caner went over and beyond the call of duty. The administration asked him to do things that I would have never agreed to do and at each turn he passed with flying colors.

You said:So Caner moves on to the next chapter of his life. The more fundamentalist World Baptist Fellowship churches and members, and the very small school to which Caner is moving, likely hasn't followed the shenanigans last year with Caner very closely. Perhaps those that hired him are believing whatever his version of events are - plus most independent fundamental baptists don't have a high regard for the "liberal" SBC'ers anyways.


The "small" school knows Ergun Caner very well and loves and welcomes him with open arms. Most Conservative Southern Baptist don't have high regard for the "liberal" SBC'ers anyways let along independent Baptist.


You said:In the end, it was arrogance that did Caner in. He could have humbled himself earlier last year when the story was still breaking. I called on Caner to do it, and he could have salvaged his reputation and his ministry with the students at Liberty.

Sir,truly you sound like the arrogant one here and one who likes to laugh and rejoice when a brother makes a mistake. I hope that's not the case but it appears it is.

I have been around Ergun for 100's of hours over the past 2 years. Every single thing he was told to do he did it and with humility.There was a couple of times when I verbally ripped his head off and very few people would set and taken the kind of chewing out that I administered.Arrogance? I don't think so. I saw a demonstration of humility.

I am extremely proud to call Ergun friend.

There are times when he might have been better to have had an affair or to commit a homosexual act or to rob a bank. I believe the brethren would have been more forgiving.

Now Ergun DID apologize for the whole world to see however you may have chose not to see it or not to believe it. That's your business.


Ergun has tons of friends and to be sure he has enemies as well. He continues to speak in large churches and he is not afraid to speak in small churches. I believe in this man and love him like a brother. He has made mistakes to be sure, but not the kind of mistakes that warrant taking and throwing him on a bone pile for the wolves to devour. Thank God for 2ND chances.

My God is in the business of putting lives back together again. You know how I know that? He put mine back together! OORAH

Galatians 6:1

We each have enemies and attacks from satan and this world with out trying to decide to destroy one another.

Tim Lee
Evangelist
www.timlee.org

email me tim@timlee.org

Anonymous said...

Anon said:
Right. Esp. considering that air space is already occupied by staff and members of First Baptist Dallas.

Ha Ha, that is too funny. As a member of FBCD and just hanging there by a thin thin thread, your comments are spot on.

FBCD has this program, like the book of the month club, that brings in a celebrity type ever so often. About once a month or so.

Anyhow, I am now curious to see if Erkin the Gerkin, will be one of the so called celebs to appear on stage.

That would be the absolute last straw for me, you would hear my footsteps heading for the door in a heartbeat if that guy shows up in some un-repentant style or attitude.

Man, I miss those days when the emphasis was on sound teaching, edifying and equipping the saints and a heart for the lost. Now it's about sparkling fountains in a big church mall, having Miss Texas or some athelete, or politician up on stage to impress us with themselves. Oh they still have touch with the gospel, just sort of over shadowed by the way cool programs.

We haven't sunk to luxury cruises with the pastor yet. Hopefully never.

I miss those days, when it wasn't about glitz, our little church had these humble men who lived out their faith as pastors. It was OK to sing hymns with the deep theology then. sigh

Rocky Lindley said...

Tom,

Concerning ABC, you’re right, it is a small school. However, the number is 215, not 115. Concerning your reliable sources, I have to say that they are very unreliable. Actually, based on your post, I have to conclude that you have no inside sources…unless you count the voices inside your head. Those “inside sources” may make you a productive lawyer, but are in no way reliable.

I know what you may be thinking, I don’t know you so what right do I have to say such things or be hateful? Yet you, without knowing Dr. Caner, continually produce hate. From what I have read on your blog, you seem to be a bitter man, spewing hatred, trying to disguise it as a love for God and truth, toward people you do not know. You criticize Dr. Caner, accusing him of arrogance while you wallow in yours. From your writings I assume that you believe you are a Christian, but your character overshadows that assumption.

Back to Dr. Caner, he was not forced out. Furthermore, those who hired him were very aware of everything that has taken place in the past year. I know this, because I am one of the one of the board members from ABC. In addition, I am an online student at Liberty. He has been followed, his stories have been read, everything has been examined, and in the end all I find are people like you calling upon Caner to repent of accusations of which he has been found innocent.

I expect hateful responses because of this post, especially from some Christians. After all, aren’t we called to tear people down with self-righteousness and hate? Oh wait…my bad. That’s not what the Bible says at all, that’s just how some people unfortunately apply it.

I stand with him, and am proud to call him friend as well.

Rocky Lindley
Pastor
rlindley@centralbaptistbowie.org

Tim Lee said...

This was suppose to have been part 1

JAX Watchdog, I do not know you however I have read your blog on occasion. I believe you are serious when wanting to correct wrongs that have been made in churches.

However, it seems like you are angry at Ergun and even have a personal grudge.

I have been on the board of Trustees of Liberty University since 1991 and I have served on the Seminary Committee all of that time.

Your sensational headline says Ergun Caner was finally shown the door by Liberty Officials. Well that is sure titillating but its false. No one showed Ergun the door. He was presented with a new contract for the new school years just a few days ago and he turned it down. I spent hundreds of hours dealing with this situation and I can assure you that on many occasions Jerry Falwell Jr expressed a strong interest that he wanted Ergun to remain at Liberty University.

It was Ergun's decision to leave. No on pushed him out. No one threatened him in to leaving. So you are wrong on this matter.

Then in an amusing part of your article you make a big deal how Ergun was going to such a small-tiny place compared to Liberty. I may be mistaken but I thought it was your life's work to try to destroy and bring down to size these big churches that you seem to disdain so much.

I would think you would be happy for a brother who is going to a small work in order to pour his life into that place to bring it back to a right and respected school. Or is it that you hate Ergun so much that you could never find any good at all and could never say a word or praise on his behalf.

Now for your statements, lets look at them.

you say:I have an inside source at Liberty University who has shared with me some of the details behind Ergun Caner's departure from Liberty to join ABC. In the interest of closure in this saga and some sense of disclosure on what Liberty finally did with Caner, I share this information that was shared with me by a reliable source.


I am saying that your reliable source is completely unreliable.

You said:Caner was finally forced out at Liberty by several of the trustees and a number of faculty members who gave an ultimatum of some sort to the administration that it was either Caner who had to leave, or them. My source tells me it was not unanimous with the trustees in forcing Caner to leave. In fact the majority wanted to keep him, but the straw that broke the camel's back was his refusal to make a public apology for the repeated lying of parts of his life's story. Thus, with no willingness to make a public apology, Caner was told he had to leave.


There is so much information here that is in error.

I was the Chairman of the committee that crafted the statement concerning Ergun. We never once found that he lied.There was 5 men on the committee and 1 eventually removed himself leaving us with 4. Here is the statement that was unanimously approved and accepted by Jerry Falwell SR.

AFTER A THOROUGH AND EXHAUSTIVE REVIEW OF DR. ERGUN CANER’S PUBLIC STATEMENTS, A COMMITTEE CONSISTING OF FIVE MEMBERS OF LIBERTY UNIVERSITY’S
BOARD OF TRUSTEES HAS CONCLUDED THAT DR. CANER HAS MADE FACTUAL STATEMENTS
THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY. HOWEVER, THE COMMITTEE FOUND NO EVIDENCE TO
SUGGEST THAT DR. CANER WAS NOT A MUSLIM WHO CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY AS A
TEENAGER BUT INSTEAD FOUND DISCREPANCIES RELATED TO MATTERS SUCH AS DATES,
NAMES AND PLACES OF RESIDENCE. DR. CANER HAS COOPERATED WITH THE BOARD COMMITTEE AND HAS APOLOGIZED FOR THE DISCREPANCIES AND MISSTATEMENTS THAT LED TO THIS REVIEW. DR. CANER’S CURRENT CONTRACTUAL TERM AS DEAN OF LIBERTY
BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY EXPIRES ON JUNE 30, 2010. DR. CANER WILL NO LONGER SERVE AS DEAN OF LIBERTY BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY. THE UNIVERSITY HAS OFFERED AND DR. CANER HAS ACCEPTED AN EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT FOR THE 2010-2011 ACADEMIC YEAR. DR. CANER WILL REMAIN ON THE FACULTY OF
LIBERTY BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY AS A PROFESSOR.



Tim Lee
Evangelist

Tim Lee said...

In an inadvertent error I said Jerry Falwell SR accepted the statement and of course I meant Jerry falwell JR. Forgive me.

Tim

Tim Lee said...

I am not sure what is happening but part 1 has disappeared now. If it does not reappear I will do my best to get it back up this evening.

Tim Lee said...

Part 1 from Tim Lee again

JAX Watchdog, I do not know you however I have read your blog on occasion. I believe you are serious when wanting to correct wrongs that have been made in churches.

However, it seems like you are angry at Ergun and even have a personal grudge.

I have been on the board of Trustees of Liberty University since 1991 and I have served on the Seminary Committee all of that time.

Your sensational headline says Ergun Caner was finally shown the door by Liberty Officials. Well that is sure titillating but its false. No one showed Ergun the door. He was presented with a new contract for the new school years just a few days ago and he turned it down. I spent hundreds of hours dealing with this situation and I can assure you that on many occasions Jerry Falwell Jr expressed a strong interest that he wanted Ergun to remain at Liberty University.

It was Ergun's decision to leave. No on pushed him out. No one threatened him in to leaving. So you are wrong on this matter.

Then in an amusing part of your article you make a big deal how Ergun was going to such a small-tiny place compared to Liberty. I may be mistaken but I thought it was your life's work to try to destroy and bring down to size these big churches that you seem to disdain so much.

I would think you would be happy for a brother who is going to a small work in order to pour his life into that place to bring it back to a right and respected school. Or is it that you hate Ergun so much that you could never find any good at all and could never say a word or praise on his behalf.

Now for your statements, lets look at them.

you say:I have an inside source at Liberty University who has shared with me some of the details behind Ergun Caner's departure from Liberty to join ABC. In the interest of closure in this saga and some sense of disclosure on what Liberty finally did with Caner, I share this information that was shared with me by a reliable source.


I am saying that your reliable source is completely unreliable.

You said:Caner was finally forced out at Liberty by several of the trustees and a number of faculty members who gave an ultimatum of some sort to the administration that it was either Caner who had to leave, or them. My source tells me it was not unanimous with the trustees in forcing Caner to leave. In fact the majority wanted to keep him, but the straw that broke the camel's back was his refusal to make a public apology for the repeated lying of parts of his life's story. Thus, with no willingness to make a public apology, Caner was told he had to leave.


There is so much information here that is in error.

I was the Chairman of the committee that crafted the statement concerning Ergun. We never once found that he lied.There was 5 men on the committee and 1 eventually removed himself leaving us with 4. Here is the statement that was unanimously approved and accepted by Jerry Falwell SR.

AFTER A THOROUGH AND EXHAUSTIVE REVIEW OF DR. ERGUN CANER’S PUBLIC STATEMENTS, A COMMITTEE CONSISTING OF FIVE MEMBERS OF LIBERTY UNIVERSITY’S
BOARD OF TRUSTEES HAS CONCLUDED THAT DR. CANER HAS MADE FACTUAL STATEMENTS
THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY. HOWEVER, THE COMMITTEE FOUND NO EVIDENCE TO
SUGGEST THAT DR. CANER WAS NOT A MUSLIM WHO CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY AS A
TEENAGER BUT INSTEAD FOUND DISCREPANCIES RELATED TO MATTERS SUCH AS DATES,
NAMES AND PLACES OF RESIDENCE. DR. CANER HAS COOPERATED WITH THE BOARD COMMITTEE AND HAS APOLOGIZED FOR THE DISCREPANCIES AND MISSTATEMENTS THAT LED TO THIS REVIEW. DR. CANER’S CURRENT CONTRACTUAL TERM AS DEAN OF LIBERTY
BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY EXPIRES ON JUNE 30, 2010. DR. CANER WILL NO LONGER SERVE AS DEAN OF LIBERTY BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY. THE UNIVERSITY HAS OFFERED AND DR. CANER HAS ACCEPTED AN EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT FOR THE 2010-2011 ACADEMIC YEAR. DR. CANER WILL REMAIN ON THE FACULTY OF
LIBERTY BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY AS A PROFESSOR.

Tim Lee
Evangelist

WishIhadknown said...

Isn’t interesting how all of these high muckety mucks have a problem if we are at times arrogant and condescending but they have no problem with being arrogant and condescending when they attack us. I also like how they get to question our salvation at will because we question someone’s bad behavior. Isn’t this being two faced? So who is the hypocrite here?

Tim Lee said...

Three times I put part one here to be read and three times it has disappeared. If anyone want to read it all email me tim@timlee.org and I will mail it to you.. God bless.

Tim

WishIhadknown said...

Tim, blogger sometimes sends things to a junk folder that Tom has to review and release as he can. Just be patient he will get it out here eventually. Thanks for contribuiting.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Tim - thanks for posting. The blogger system for some reason put your posts in the "Spam" folder waiting for my approval. Maybe it was the length of them, I don't know.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Rocky - you sound the bitter one. You say that I am not a Christian. You don't even know me, sir. But thank you for your post, it again shows the Caner defenders to be the bitter ones out to attack.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

This is the love we get from pastors. How sad.

Says Pastor Rocky:

"I know what you may be thinking, I don’t know you so what right do I have to say such things or be hateful? Yet you, without knowing Dr. Caner, continually produce hate. From what I have read on your blog, you seem to be a bitter man, spewing hatred, trying to disguise it as a love for God and truth, toward people you do not know. You criticize Dr. Caner, accusing him of arrogance while you wallow in yours. From your writings I assume that you believe you are a Christian, but your character overshadows that assumption."

Wow. They can't just defend Caner, or clarify statements or mistatements that they believe are on the blog.

Attack, attack, attack.

Maybe you can have Peter Lumpkins make some cartoon videos making fun.

Pathetic, but as I said, your posts are very helpful in they allow people a deeper view into what "pastors" are all about these days.

Tom Parker said...

Tim Lee:

Did no one ever teach you about using all CAPS!!?

WishIhadknown said...

Tim, I am sorry if this offends you but this sounds like double speak to me, “….BOARD OF TRUSTEES HAS CONCLUDED THAT DR. CANER HAS MADE FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY.” This sounds like something a committee comes up with when the committee is trying to make the best out of a bad situation.
Something is true or it’s not, it is plain, it is simple.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Lee,
As a parent, I was and still am angry at the behavior of Mr. Caner along with several other people I know, so you can put me on your list of angry people over the Caner incident.

I too sat and listened to the many lies of Caner time after time on his speaking circuits. He's a joke and why you are continuing to defend Liberty & Caner on this incident is beyond me.

You say "youI have been on the board of Trustees of Liberty University since 1991 and I have served on the Seminary Committee all of that time."

Well sir, all I can say is that your leadership in this incident says a lot about you as well. A grave disappointment - Caner should work in the secular world as a lay person, not in the professional educational field with our young people.

Tim Lee said...

To Tom who is worried about capital letters. That was the way the statement appeared concerning Ergun. I did not change it on purpose. I sorry you are offended.Have a nice evening.

Rocky Lindley said...

You were right; I don’t know you and I don’t have the right to say the things that I said. I was wrong. What I don’t get is that somehow you have the right to say the things that you say, taking into account your lack of knowledge concerning Caner. Now, let me get this right, you (as well as others) can play the part of gods, judging and tearing people down online, but if we point out that hatred and lack of Christian character, as well as defend then we are unloving and hateful? So there’s a double standard? You can call people out, but you cannot be called out?

Concerning my statement that implied you were not a Christian, I apologize. I was not trying to say that you were not a Christian. Rather, I was saying that your online character did not reflect that. I believe that you are a Christian. Therefore, I call you to repent. I call you to repent of the hate that has been discharged toward those like Caner and Brunson…to repent of the division that you have sought to bring among believers…to repent of the fact that you have publicly tried to ruin rather than restore, to create conflict rather than peace.

Tim Lee said...

FBC JAX Watchdog. Thank you. I figured there was a glitch somewhere. Thank you for taking care of it. God bless.

Tim

Tim Lee said...

I'm just asking however why do people post under an anonymous name when talking about someone else's character?

Doesn't it seem a little bit confusing?

I have found that when I use my real name (Tim Lee) I find I am less likely to say things that are wrong and hurtful.

Just saying.

Tim Lee said...

Wishihadknown I spoke at Liberty University last year on Veterans Day. I have given my story hundreds if not a couple of thousand times. In front of 10000 people that day I said ' I stepped on a 60lb mine and it blew me several feet in the air ripping both of my bodies off my leg'. Now the mine didn't rip both of my bodies off my leg as I only have one body.It ripped both of my legs off of my body. I had said it right hundreds and hundreds of times but that day I got it wrong. My children were listening back in Dallas via Internet. They were in the floor with laughter.

We,the committee never found one instance of Ergun lying. We did find numerous instances of misspeaking. He was rebuked and reprimanded and I can promise you much more careful about what he says and how he says it.

It's called a second chance which I am really big on.

WishIhadknown said...

Sorry, I did not know that standing up for right and opposing what is wrong is hateful and unchristian. I do like how in the same paragraph you say you are wrong but then turn around and pass judgment in exactly the same way as you did before.
As far as division goes, have you paid any attention to what is going on in the SBC and across this country? I hate the “if you don’t like it leave” attitude that has become so commonly accepted in our churches and if that makes me unchristian then I stand guilty. Personally, I am always open to dialogue because as long as we are able to dialogue then we may be able to come to an understanding. Now, however, it seems the unpardonable sin is to question those in charge.
What is it about my online character does not reflect that I am a Christian? The fact that I find bad behavior unacceptable? The fact that I expect to hear the word rightly preached from the pulpit? Sorry I thought “thou shalt not bear false witness” was a commandment.
As far as Caner goes, he bears witness against himself. The pagans are the ones who called him on it not us.
Do you have anything to offer to the discussion or do you just come here to accuse and dispense judgment?

Anonymous said...

I'm just asking however why do people post under an anonymous name when talking about someone else's character?

Obviously you are not a member of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville or you would understand why so many post "anonymous" . . .

Fredericka said...

Tim Lee, then what is the reason why Ergun left and went to a much smaller school?

I don't think there are many people who have been more badly served by their friends than Ergun Caner. Hanging tough is not the right strategy for someone in his position.

Tim Lee said...

Proverbs 29:25 

 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

WishIhadknown said...

Tim, I am aware of your service and sacrifice and I thank you for it. I am sorry to say that I laughed at your misstatement but it is funny. Forgive me, please.
I hope you will suffer along with me a bit more. If Caner misspoke then why not say Dr. Caner misspoke, why say, “FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY.” What are, “FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY?” To me this is a fancy way of saying he lied.
I, too, am really big on second, third, fourth, etc chances. God knows I have had my share. Usually, though it starts with something like, “Honey, I’m sorry I was wrong, will you forgive me.”

Tim Lee said...

Fredericka said...
Tim Lee, then what is the reason why Ergun left and went to a much smaller school?

Ergun was greatly loved by many at Liberty and there were those who despised him I believe out of Jealousy. He could have stayed but felt it best for everyone including his precious family to move on. Liberty will do good, Ergun will do good and Arlington Baptist College will do good. WIN WIN WIN. (Sorry for the caps Tom)

Anonymous said...

Dr. Lee,

You can just ignore Tom Parker, most people do. He's a bitter CBF'er.

WishIhadknown said...

If all Caner did was misspeak then why was he rebuked and reprimanded? This seems very severe for simply misspeaking.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

Thank you for taking time to enlighten us on some of the recent developments at LU. Based on your experience with the situation, would you explain to us why Caner was demoted last year if the committee found that he was not guilty of lying? If Caner simply mispoke, why did he lose his position as Dean? We all misspeak from time to time. If that was truly all he did, is it possible that the board was too harsh? A demotion implies that the board recognized something more serious than a few verbal gaffes.

Tim Lee said...

wishihadknown
Tim, I am aware of your service and sacrifice and I thank you for it. I am sorry to say that I laughed at your misstatement but it is funny. Forgive me, please.
I hope you will suffer along with me a bit more. If Caner misspoke then why not say Dr. Caner misspoke, why say, “FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY.” What are, “FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT ARE SELF-CONTRADICTORY?” To me this is a fancy way of saying he lied.
I, too, am really big on second, third, fourth, etc chances. God knows I have had my share. Usually, though it starts with something like, “Honey, I’m sorry I was wrong, will you forgive me.”

Well, as I said this was looked into by not only we the committee,but outsiders did there work here too and no one found that Ergun lied. He mis-spoke. There's a difference. He would say he was born in one country and raised in a different country. He would get it right 98 times out of 100 but turn it around the other two times. They were factual yet contradictory.

PS I ad a huge laugh too when I listened to what I had said! Super Blooper

Tim Lee said...

wishihadknown


If all Caner did was misspeak then why was he rebuked and reprimanded? This seems very severe for simply misspeaking.

May 19, 2011 5:30 PM


He was in a very prominent position and it had caused trouble and embarrassment for all involved. Dr Falwell SR was constantly giving people second chances for a whole lot worse things than this. Ergun apologized and his apology was accepted and he has gotten on with his life. That's a good thing for people to do. Get on with their lives.

Anonymous said...

"Dr Falwell SR was constantly giving people second chances for a whole lot worse things than this."

Specifically Ron Godwin, who ironically, was involved in the discipline process of Caner. That in and of itself was a joke.

Tim Lee said...

Tim,

Thank you for taking time to enlighten us on some of the recent developments at LU. Based on your experience with the situation, would you explain to us why Caner was demoted last year if the committee found that he was not guilty of lying? If Caner simply mispoke, why did he lose his position as Dean? We all misspeak from time to time. If that was truly all he did, is it possible that the board was too harsh? A demotion implies that the board recognized something more serious than a few verbal gaffes.

May 19, 2011 5:36 PM

It was felt by the administration that something should be done. This was not a one time occurrence. Ergun would tell you that he became careless and it became a habit. Some thought what they did was to severe and others would have liked nothing less than having him fired and tarred and feathered.

Ergun is going to be a huge blessing to ABC and they too will be a blessing to him. I am confident you will hear great things from Arlington TX with Ergun,Arlington Baptist College,Texas Rangers and the COWBOYS! Couldn't resist the caps. OORAH

Anonymous said...

Tim Lee,

Did Caner tell lies for 9 years or not? Did he profit off those lies or not.

Or was he just not aware of where he was born, grew up and where he went to school? So he gave different versions to cover the possibilities?

I am sad for you, Liberty and the Trustees, Mr. Lee. Christendom is suffering from a lack of integrity in it's leaders.

And I am one who has read every book, seen the videos, listened to many sermons by Caner. The man lied pure and simple for 9 years. You can spin it any way you want but it only gives us insight into your character.


Martin

Tom Parker said...

Any Mouse: quite possibly Joe

You said "Dr. Lee,

You can just ignore Tom Parker, most people do. He's a bitter CBF'er.

May 19, 2011 5:27 PM"

Three questions--what is a CBF'er, what do you consider the word bitter to mean and are you Joe Blackmon?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Tim - thanks for at least coming here and trying to give explanations. It is more than any of Caner's other friends have done.

However, I don't buy your explanation of Caner being "careless" and it becoming a habit.

Remember, my involvement in this Caner saga started last March when I got my hands on the Caner sermon he preached in November 2001 at my former church FBC Jax. When I heard it again, and measured his claims against the truth of his background, it hardly could be said he was "careless" or "misspoke". He said he was raised in Europe. He said he was trained to do that which was done on 9/11. I'm telling you Tim...he purposely left us all with the impression that we just heard a former Jihadist terrorist who was just about involved in 9/11, preach to us. And this catapulted him to instant fame in the SBC.

Do I want him "tarred and feathered" as you say? Absolutely not. No one does. All that anyone has asked is for him to publicly apologize for the years and years of these deceptions. Instead, his friends in the most vicous fashion attacked James White who was defending his profession against one who claimed to do what White does, but actually does not debate. And what did White get? He was attacked by Caner's friends. It was terrible.

So again, thank you for chiming in here and having your say. But you have selective hearing, in my view, of what Caner was all about these past 9 or so years. You can characterize my blog as hate, as attacks, as whatever you want. But we know the truth. As I said in my post, you can characterize Caner any which way you want, but it doesn't matter. The facts are the facts.

Job said...

I am no supporter of Dr. Caner in this matter. However, I do say that this entry is highly improper. Christians should not be in the business of circulating unsubstantiated information from anonymous sources. That amounts to gossip at best, and tale-bearing or slander at worst. No one who objects to your version of events has the opportunity to challenge the accuracy of the information or the integrity and the motivations of those who provided it. This is in violation of everything that the New Testament (and the Old Testament also) says about how to handle accusations among each other.

Second, allow me to say that professors and administrators move amongst colleges that vary in size and reputation all the time for a variety of reasons. (The dean of Liberty's seminary prior to Caner left to take a post at Tennessee Temple College, enrollment 1200.) That is how academia is, and has always been. Arlington Bible College is in danger of losing its accreditation and is hiring a new administrative team to keep from having to shut down. As Caner is an experienced and successful administrator, they could very much use him, and claiming that it would be somehow preferable to stay at Liberty and allow yet another Christian college to close its doors is simply a breathtaking position. Also, in light of 1 Corinthians 12, to take the position that ANY Christian service represents "a step back" is utterly un-Biblical. This entry is evaluating Caner as if he is in the business world, not academia (where again, moves like this are nowhere near unusual) and certainly not Christianity. Furthermore, Caner got his start at a nearby and similar institution, Criswell College, and almost certainly knows a great deal about ABC and the people there, and that would be added motivation to go there and help them preserve their accreditation. After the crisis at ABC is over, Caner would have A) done a good deed in helping save a Christian school and B) will have another impressive entry in his resume (yes, stepping in and helping save a small school from losing accreditation is precisely that) which will be useful to the future academic and administrative career of a still very young (44!) man.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog was your information right or wrong from your inside source?

Job said...

Part II:

Further still, Liberty University is undergoing a huge transformation, radical change of direction from a traditional institution that had its designs on becoming a respected, or even elite, university to one whose primary focus is online education. In short, it is moving away from Jerry Falwell's aims to create "a Baptist Notre Dame" to his son's desire to mold it into "a Christian University of Phoenix." Allow me to say that if you are a young, upwardly mobile professor, scholar and administrator (as Caner either is or presumes himself to be) then the last place that you want to be is a primarily distance education institution. I have read elsewhere that more than a few folks at Liberty are also considering their options, and not a few of them would have been very glad had Caner's post at ABC been one of them.

Now make no mistake. I am not defending Ergun Caner! "I am an immigrant from Turkey/I learned to speak English watching "Dukes of Hazzard"/"I was in youth jihad training to do what was done on 11 September" is not "misspeaking", and it is certainly not "factual contradictory statements" (which the epistemology taught in Caner's own apologetics courses would preclude the possibility of). And I wish that ABC had chosen one of the MANY experienced Christian administrators capable of seeing them through their accreditation crisis, and their choosing Caner reflects poorly on them and that institution.

Still, a reality check was in order. This piece falls short of the New Testament says about gossip and rumor-mongering and how to handle accusations against a professed Christian, and its underlying assumptions do not accurately reflect what is very common, even routine, in college life. In light of these, I sincerely recommend that you withdraw this piece.

Job said...

I just posted 2 comments. Where did they go?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Job, they were in spam. I think people posting as bible characters automatically go to the spam folder.

:)

Anonymous said...

Liberty lost the best thing that ever happened to that school. Noone else there can draw a crowd like Dr. Caner.

He has charisma, charm, candor, and is very funny....this is the type of man that God uses!

You look at any great man who make mistakes...
Paul
Peter
David
Abraham

They have all made comebacks and so will Ergun.

Dr. Caner does not need Liberty...
Liberty needs Dr. Caner.

Liberty does not have a talent like Dr. Caner left at the school and they know it.

Have you seen any of the other professors at some of the leading conferences in America like Catalyst or Willow Creek or Saddleback?

NO...they can't bring it like Ergun....He electrifies a crowd like Bono and Mick Jagger!

He is God's Rock Star!!!

Job said...

FBC Jax:

So people named John, Michael, Gabriel, Daniel, David, Ruth, Mary and Rachel have comments go to your spam folder too?

Must have gone to your spam folder because it was too long. Thanks!

James said...

Tim,
Part 1

mispeak definition -

1: to speak (as a word) incorrectly
2: to express (oneself) imperfectly or incorrectly


lie definition

1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression


Ergun gave the impression to many that he was raised up in a strict Muslim home when he came to America with his father and his fathers many wives at the age of 14 after being trained to do what was done on 9/11. When he actually came to America at the age of 2-3 and grew up in Ohio where he was raised by his non-religious mother and visited with his Muslim father.

Is this a lie or did he misspeak? Which part is misspoken?

You see I (and others) find it amazing that no one heard this side of Ergun's life until after 9/11. How come this persona came up after 9/11 and was never mentioned or spoken of prior. I have personally heard the man preach (pre 9/11) at Wood Baptist Church and at Central Baptist Church (several times each) as E Michael Caner or Butch and none of the misleading information that appeared after 9/11 was mentioned prior to 9/11. The only thing he ever said about his dad was that he was disowned when he was saved as a teenager.

So to in my eyes (and others) he created a persona after 9/11 to gain financially through books, teaching, speaking and the many paid speaking gigs he has done.

For this reason I (and others) view this man as a liar, fraud and thief. Since he sold books based up on lies or (or as you guys like to call them factual statements that are self-contradictory) he has stolen from people who bought these books based on who they thought he was instead of who he is.

James said...

Part 2

Also, how can all the claims of the bloggers, videos, court docs, etc be lies. You see the way you guys act is as if everyone else is lying except Caner. Could it possibly be that Ergun and Emir have lied about who they are to sell books? Could it be possible that he has gained some leverage through the big names like Brunson, Falwell and Patterson (who new Ergun before 9/11 and never once had him speak about this subject before 9/11) simply through the business deals (books, teachings, speaking events, etc). Could it be that these people support him because of the big business he brings to the table as a former terrorist trained Muslim turned Christian instead of the son of former Muslim who grew up raised by a single mom in Ohio and by all apparent findings was a normal teenager? Could it be that you guys have been duped and are to proud to admit it?

No one has ever said he was not a former Muslim or his father was not a Muslim. What has been said is that he was not a former Muslim trained to be a terrorist until age 14. We are saying that he grew up from age 2-3 in America, not in primarily Muslim based countries most of his life. He grew up as a normal teenager not as a shunned Muslim dressing kid as he has claimed.

What about the other lies? His father coming to America with several wives? His father in law giving him alcohol at church and getting him drunk before a Sunday service. What about the lies he tells his kids to tell his wife when they travel with him?

What about the character issues of taking your young sons to WWF wrestling events (some of the most vile and degrading crap on tv). Telling off color jokes to his students about the sex life with his wife, the off color jokes about Mexicans, African Americans and women behind the pulpit? Are these the character traits we want our future Christian leaders coming from? His supporters say this man has done so much for the name of Christ, but in my eyes (and others) he has made a mockery of the name of Jesus. I am not a perfect man, but I definitely would not get behind the pulpit and lie about who I was to sell books and get speaking fees.

Tim Lee said...

My coming here was simply to say the tittle of the blog,Inside Story: Ergun Caner was finally shown the door by liberty officials. I already knew minds were made up. I know the process we went through and I know what Ergun went through. I seriously doubt a single one of you would subject yourself to the treatment that he was treated to..

I encourage you to not believe everything you read in this day od misinformation.

It was said in one post this evening that the emphasis was off of building a 'campus' university and placing more and more emphasis on long distance learning. My words.

Granted we have a huge interest in the long distance program with nearly 65000 students. We do have 12000 on the campus and have actually turned down students for past 3 years. Things are getting ready to change as we gear up to build enough buildings and hire enough staff to have 20,000 students on campus in the next 7 years.

Satan doesn't like it when good things are happening so who does he attack? Those who are doing something for HIM. Sorry bout the caps :-)

Katie said...

Tim,

I appreciate your comments. However, Ergun Caner lied repeatedly. There is no way around that. I don't care one whit about the carefully crafted statement from Liberty. I care about the integrity of the leaders we put in front our young people.

You can't seriously believe that the Holy Spirit needed any help from Caner's ubiquitous lies and stories to reach people for Christ.

What really made me angry was his performance in front of the marines. I also served on active duty for 20 years. If he had said those things in front of me, I would have rebuked him on the spot. He was crude and he also lied yet, again.

I believe we should welcome back into the fold, Christians who have repented of their sin. If Ergun Caner ever does that, I will make good on that statement.

I thank you for your service and for your great sacrifice.

Tom Parker said...

Katie:

You said to Tim Lee:"However, Ergun Caner lied repeatedly."

But, it was not considered lying, but misspeaking by those that support Ergun and those that call Ergun out for lying they are doing the work of Satan.

Why would it have ever been so hard for Ergun Caner to admit that he lied?

James said...

Tim our minds are made up, because the man lied. He has made no public apology for his lies and he acts like anyone who calls him out on his fabrications are wrong. He acts like he is being persecuted.

I personally knew the man before 9/11 and none of this was ever mentioned before 9/11 and only after wards did it suddenly become important. He was known as E Michael Caner or Butch the son of a former Muslim who was disowned by his father for converting to Christianity. If it was important after 9/11, do you not think it was just as important before?

I guess no one (supporters or the Caners) will ever answer the question about how Caner is the only one telling the truth and the rest of us are lying and according to Tim Lee attacking someone doing work for the Lord. Jesus does not need a liar, fraudster or thief!

Maybe Caner and his supporters could learn from this man (http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/pastor-gets-caught-in-5-year-lie-about.html). While he did lie, he came clean and has started the healing process so he can move on with his life.

I dare to say that if Caner did the same, we (I know I would) would forgive him, praise him for being honest and coming clean and move on with our lives.

Tim Lee said...

James said. I guess no one (supporters or the Caners) will ever answer the question about how Caner is the only one telling the truth and the rest of us are lying and according to Tim Lee attacking someone doing work for the Lord. Jesus does not need a liar, fraudster or thief!


James you lied in that statement. Conversation over.

Anonymous said...

So when Clinton said " I did not have sex with that woman" he was actually only misspeaking? Thanks for clearing that up , I thought he lied.

Dr Ergun Caner (satire) said...

Tim Lee-

Please stop digging this hole. We want to respect you, but you are making that all but impossible. Caner lied repeatedly sir. Can you, Tim Lee, turn a lie into truth? Please... show us how you do it:

Caner said - on many occasions- that his father had more than one wife at a time. The video "Proof of the Conspiracy Against Me - part 1" documents him telling Marines very deliberately, that his father had 3 wives at the same time. Tim Lee - go to the 3:30 mark in the video and see your boy lie through his teeth once again, because his father didn't have more than 1 wife at a time.

Go ahead Tim Lee. Tell us that Ergun Caner did not just throw his father under the bus for his own benefit - a father that apparently never accepted Christ and will spend eternity in Hell. Ergun Caner, dishonoring his own unsaved father's memory by telling lies about him to bolster his own persona. Go ahead, tell us that he just misspoke.

Rocky Lindley - maybe you have the ability to explain that away? I won't hold my breath Pastor.

Oh one last thing: would someone at ABC ask Dr Caner who he DID debate in Nebraska? He'll know what you mean.

Dr Who said...

Looks like Liberty needs to do a little more housecleaning.

If the Board does not have the basic and common sense to see and hear that Ergun Caner lied on many occasions, then we as Christian need to demand Liberty U alumni, administrative, and staff either ask questions on why they deny his lies and continuously protect this man or have the board resign and hire new members that have GODLY discernment.

But, I am not ever surprised nowadays at what spews out of these "Head in the Sand Baptist" leaders.

Lies, Deception, Coverups - the new Baptist buddy motto

James said...

James you lied in that statement. Conversation over.

May 19, 2011 10:16 PM

Tim Lee - Where did I lie? The conversation is over, because you cant answer the question and instead of digging your whole, you concede.

Once again, how is it all of us are wrong and Caner is right? How is it, he is the only one telling the truth and everyone else is lying?

"Satan doesn't like it when good things are happening so who does he attack? Those who are doing something for HIM. Sorry bout the caps :-)"

To me, you were saying or implying that we (those who do not support him) are being used by Satan to attack this man.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

James - you did an excellent job laying out the arguments that so many have made concerning Caner. They can't answer your questions. In fact, just in Tim Lee attempting to articulate a defense of Caner makes things worse. Now we see why the committee and the trustees have been silent up to this point. To defend what they did, and to defend Caner, creates more questions that can't be answered.

Tim has posted here that they never heard Caner lie, only misspeakings. But he assured us that that he was reprimanded...which begs the question, why in the world would a person who misspeaks need to be reprimanded?

But to Tim's credit, he is the first person from the committee that has said anything publicly, so I am glad for that. But it certainly doesn't help Liberty or Caner to read Tim's explanations, as they only raise more questions.

Part of the sadness of this whole debacle.

faith_to_move said...

I had Dr. Caner for a Theology class this past spring semester. I can assure you he's moved on. It would be nice if the blogging world would too.

joshua said...

I am a student at this SMALL obscure College to which you have made reference. Are you aware that Arlington Baptist College has been around for over 75 years??? Did you know the campus is a historical landmark and has been featured in numerous magazines and covered by several media outlets? Do a google search for "Top O Hill Terrace."

The size of the school has nothing to do with the quality of Christian education offered. Abc is a fully accredited college and has one of the best education departments in the area. Many of our graduates are immediately hired by local public schools districts. The faculty consists of many extremely talented professors, all of whom possess a true passion for the Lord and training students for the work of the ministry. Many of my professors have Masters and Doctorate degrees from Southern Baptist Seminaries such as: South Western Theological and Dallas Theological. Several of our professors have published books as well. While we are a small Independent Baptist College, we have been training faithful servants of Christ for over 75 years!

I challenge this blogger to take a trip to Arlington Baptist College and see firsthand the best kept secret in the DFW area!

joshua said...

I am a student at this SMALL obscure College to which you have made reference. Are you aware that Arlington Baptist College has been around for over 75 years??? Did you know the campus is a historical landmark and has been featured in numerous magazines and covered by several media outlets? Do a google search for "Top O Hill Terrace."

The size of the school has nothing to do with the quality of Christian education offered. Abc is a fully accredited college and has one of the best education departments in the area. Many of our graduates are immediately hired by local public schools districts. The faculty consists of many extremely talented professors, all of whom possess a true passion for the Lord and training students for the work of the ministry. Many of my professors have Masters and Doctorate degrees from Southern Baptist Seminaries such as: South Western Theological and Dallas Theological. Several of our professors have published books as well. While we are a small Independent Baptist College, we have been training faithful servants of Christ for over 75 years!

I challenge this blogger to take a trip to Arlington Baptist College and see firsthand the best kept secret in the DFW area!

Christina Busby C/O'12 said...

Arlington Baptist College is a GREAT school.. While we may not yet be the amount of students Liberty has, I am sure they had to start somewhere. I see this move, as do many others, as a great thing for our school..

Anonymous said...

To the person who states that ABC has super strict rules:
While Arlington Baptist College does have rules that they feel are Biblical and enforce them, they are not awful rules or ones that make no sense. They are not "stuffy", our professors make off the wall jokes quit often, and we have a quite huge auditorium (our cafeteria has nothing to do with out auditorium. By the way, not only do I have tattoos, but so do many of the people who attend ABC. We don't get looked down upon...because honestly, there are more important things in life to spend our time on than debating issues like tattoos that truly don't matter. Please don't judge our school when you have no first hand knowledge...it truly shows your utter ignorance and poor judgement.

Debbie Kaufman said...

He would get it right 98 times out of 100 but turn it around the other two times.

That is simply not true, or wait....it was a misspeak. In 10 years he said many times that he was born in one place, any place other than Switzerland, and he also said he did not come to America till much later than he actually did. He also said that he learned English from watching the Dukes of Hazzard and so many more lies that I can't list them all here. It's on video in several places that cannot be missed. To say he got it right 98 out of 100 times and 2 wrong is to completely overlook the evidence that says that statement in and of itself is false.

Debbie Kaufman said...

BTW I had been on this story since February of last year when James White first questioned a couple of debates that Ergun Caner said he had, but in fact neither of the men Caner said he debated had ever met the man. Now was that Ergun misspeaking? No, it was Ergun out and out lying.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

ABC Students - glad you are proud of your school's instructors, history, quality of education etc.

Then you should be gravely concerned that the leaders of your school have decided to bring in Ergun Caner. This is not good for your school. Christians and non-Christians alike have followed the Ergun Caner story closely and know the truth about his lies, and the way his friends defended him by attacking Christians who called for him to fess up.

joshua said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christina Busby C/O'12 said...

FBC I am just as concerned as the next student BUT at some point I have to trust my President, and the board members. They have our best interest at heart and our looking out for us. I can say that if something is bothering me or concerning me about the issue at hand, I can go and express my feelings to any board member or the President. I also have to trust God in this aspect to. These men are right with God and have the students best interest at heart.

Anonymous said...

Job's statements about ABC in danger of being closed down are completely false. Caner is replacing the current academic dean who will be retiring. Dr. Moody is hiring new staff to fulfill his vision for the school. The education department is recognized byTEA and continues to graduate students that score higher on teacher certification exams than the majority testing out of state universities. The school was granted accreditation for a three masters programs. (MABTS, MEd in School Leadership, MEd in Curriculum and Instruction). The enrollment is over two hundred, but is predicted to reach 300+ by fall.

After meeting Caner several years ao, I was not impressed. I thought he was rather arrogant. I was given the opportunity to talk with him this week concerning his new position. His demeanor was that of humility. God has changed him, and I wish you had the same opportunity to see that. I'm thankful that I serve a God who loves me through my worst moments and redeems me for service for Him.

-A graduate that LOVES her school!

James said...

"Christina Busby C/O'12 said...

FBC I am just as concerned as the next student BUT at some point I have to trust my President, and the board members. They have our best interest at heart and our looking out for us. I can say that if something is bothering me or concerning me about the issue at hand, I can go and express my feelings to any board member or the President. I also have to trust God in this aspect to. These men are right with God and have the students best interest at heart.

May 20, 2011 2:06 AM"

Christina,

I appreciate the trust you have in your school, but this man has lied to everyone and chances are he lied to your school as well. Why not go to the president or board members and bring up the issues about him lying about his past and ask what they know and if they have investigated.

I know you trust them, but you or they should not trust him and your asking for an investigation in to his back ground (not the one done by LU, but another one done by your school)shows your concern for you, your fellow students, your school, and integrity.

He has gone as far as to throw his own father and father in law under the bus, so he does not appear to be above doing anything to get what he wants.

Christina Busby C/O'12 said...

James I trust that my school has already done that. The teachers there are some of the BEST quality teachers.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous student from ABC:
How about we get to the crux of the matter, forgiveness. If forgiveness was shown at Liberty than this whole thing would not be an issue. It was his testimony for crying out loud. He was telling a story whether fully true or not is not the issue. We are too busy "casting the stones" as Christians rather than being like Jesus with the prostitute and saying "go and sin no more".
But God in his grace is trying to show us a different story. A story of new beginnings in him coming to Texas. Sure we have a tenth of their students. But isn't that the beautiful part? It shows that he is not in it for the money. That he in fact is in this business to tell his story. And quite frankly from reading some of the comments of the Pastors inside and outside of the Fellowship, including myself, maybe we all need to read the Bible and learn more about what grace really is.

Job said...

FBC Jax:

I really wish that the main thrust of my comments, which is that it is inappropriate for Christians to use anonymous sources that shields the accuser from direct challenge, and that in the academic world going from a larger college to a smaller college is routine business (and going from professor of a large college to a top administrator in a small one) is actually a promotion that most professors would jump at the opportunity to take, especially a 44 year old administrator who still has 30 years left in his career to parlay an administrative role at a smaller college to one at a bigger college. And yes, in any other context, Caner's helping ABC out in their time of need is a GOOD THING. Again, I am no defender of Caner, but this article falls short of integrity and accuracy in a number of areas that cannot be ignored.

Job said...

Anonymous: I am sorry. It is Criswell College that is having the accreditation issues. I regret the confusion that I caused with my error.

Tim Lee:

I am waiting for you to tell me how factual statements can be contradictory. When I studied epistemology, I learned that everyone except postmodernists who reject propositional truth holds that it is impossible.

Job said...

Tim Lee:

My source for the changes at Liberty University is below. You may want to take it up with him!

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2011/05/is-liberty-mountain-about-to-erupt-into-a-volcano-by-peter-lumpkins.html

Job said...

Christina Busby C/O'12:

Wrong attitude. The men that you speak of are not your pastors, or are not the pastor of a church that God told you to join after seeking Him about it earnestly in prayer, and you do not know them personally. So, instead of trusting them, you should trust God. You should trust that God will guide you and protect you while you seek your education there in spite of any bad decisions or failings on the part of the men that are running that college. It is possible to get a good Christian education from a Christian institution run by flawed people. (Now being in a church with real problems in its leadership, that's another story, but ABC is a school, not a church.) As someone who has been exposed to a variety of Christian educational environments, PLEASE, put your trust in GOD and not man!

Like I said, church is a different story. God must choose your church for you, and after He has done that, you can and must trust the shepherd that God has appointed for you. But if God led you to ABC, it was to get an education. Please know that! So, just get from that institution what God intended for you to get there - a good solid Christian education - and let that be the end of it.

Tim Lee said...

You see how professional bloggers work now. I wrote yesterday for one purpose in mind: To show that FBC Jax Watchdog had made an error when writing the following titillating title.

"Inside Story; Ergun Caner Was Finally Shown the Door by Liberty Officials"

(JAX WROTE) Ergner Caner posted a press release on his website to announce that he is being hired as the Provost and Vice President of Arlington Baptist College in Arlington, Texas. (This statement is accurate)

(JAX WROTE)ABC is a tiny bible college of about 115 students.(This statement is wrong and with one phone call you would have known you were wrong.They have 219 students but hey what difference does facts matter anyway)

(JAX WROTE) I have an inside source at Liberty University who has shared with me some of the details behind Ergun Caner's departure from Liberty to join ABC. In the interest of closure in this saga and some sense of disclosure on what Liberty finally did with Caner,(Tim says, What Liberty finally did with Caner? Sounds like execution time! I will tell you what they did once again. They offered him a new contract to teach in the coming school year.Thats what they did. Perhaps I could be your new inside source) I share this information that was shared with me by a reliable source. (it appears that your source has zero credibility, as a matter of fact he/she is a liar.)


Caner was finally forced out at Liberty by several of the trustees and a number of faculty members who gave an ultimatum of some sort to the administration that it was either Caner who had to leave, or them.(Tim Lee said: Caner was offered another contract to teach next year just last week).

Tim Says>>As an active member of the Board of Trustees I can tell you unequivocally this did not happen.

Now,none of this is true. NONE,caps intended! So what else is untrue on this blog and with its bloggers?


Often times the people who are crying the loudest about the sins of others end up doing the same thing that they are upset at others for. Its that beam...mote thing.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Tim Lee: If Watchdog is wrong in his scenario, he shouldn't be. What he wrote should have happened. It should have occurred just this way. On the bright side from Liberty's perspective, Ergun isn't your problem anymore now is he.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Often times the people who are crying the loudest about the sins of others end up doing the same thing that they are upset at others for. Its that beam...mote thing.



Ergun Caner was a leader in the Christian community, specifically in the realm of Southern Baptists, which I am, integrity and truth telling is in scripture over and over again. Paul did not stretch his testimony to make it more exciting. He did not slander another group, even another religion, in order to gain an audience. In fact Romans 3:8, 1 Tim. 3:2, 3:7, 1 Timothy 6:20 would also apply to this situation.

The Bible also states that Ergun has a greater responsibility than even I do in areas of integrity and that would include telling the truth. Those who preach the Gospel are to preach the truth, the whole truth and you also have a greater responsibility than I do as trustee of Liberty to be honest, to make sure that those like Ergun are the height of integrity.

Matthew 7:1-2 would seem to contradict your last comment which says we are to judge according to God's word. Even a child knows lying is wrong. We either follow selective parts of scripture or all of it. To equate forgiveness with absolution when no repentance occurs is to cheapen God's forgiveness and to downgrade his holiness and his call for us to be sanctified and holy.

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. The profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work (1:15-16).

Debbie Kaufman said...

Forgive many comments, but I have held this in for almost a year, not having talked of the Ergun Caner incident during this time to let myself heal from all of this. I and others such as Watchdog and James White took quite a beating for exposing the truth of Ergun.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 tells us as Christians to test all things through scripture. Acts 17, Paul commended people for being Bereans and for searching scripture to make sure all that he and other teachers, preachers said is in fact true. Christ is truth.

When a leader fails, it is our duty as Christians to point out this failure for the integrity of both the Gospel and Christianity. Ergun lied publicly for ten years, no one caught him or questioned him because of ignorance of the Muslim religion and 9/11. That ignorance has changed.

Job said...

Debbie Kaufman:

I must ask you: if FBC Jax Watchdog is using questionable information from an anonymous source, how is that any different from what Dr. Caner did?

1. Even if the story is 100% true, this is not how the New Testament says that Christians should speak of issues (i.e. talebearing, rumor mongering, gossip) or how we should bring accusations against each other (sorry, despite all his problems, Caner has to be presumed a Christian).

2. You have FBC Jax's quoting an anonymous source secondhand versus Tim Lee speaking openly of things that he claims to be in position to have firsthand knowledge of. Unless it can be established that Tim Lee is not a Liberty trustee and is not privy to the things that he claims to be, then that makes Lee the more credible party. (Please know that being an Ergun Caner enabler and shielder is not akin to BEING Ergun Caner. It has not been established that Lee is an unrepentant liar.)

3. FBC Jax falsely depicts leaving a professorship at a large college to become provost and vice president of academic affairs at a small college is evidence of his being pushed out is 100%, totally wrong. It is actually a promotion that a sizeable number of people in university life would gladly take, and if ABC has a good academic reputation (as many small colleges in fact do) even more so. Not everything is like the business world, where bigger and more prestigious = better. As a matter of fact, if you want to become an administrator at a bigger, more prestigious school, doing so at a smaller school first is a logical, time-worn way to do it. And besides, it isn't as if Liberty was going to put him back in their administration anytime soon, so what would have been his opportunities for career advancement by staying?

Now again, I am not saying that this story is wholly false. Instead, I am saying that even if it is true, it falls short of the New Testament standard. Relying on inside sources, trafficking distortions ... we have to be better than this.

Christina Busby C/O'12 said...

Job I am also a wife, and if my husband chooses not to go to the school then why should I voice my concerns?

Anonymous said...

Is this the same Tim Lee that was defending Bob Gray (child molester) just a few years ago?

Debbie Kaufman said...

Job: There is night and day difference. It's not even comparable. For one, if the story is not true it just means that Watchdog received erroneous information. You may not like what Watchdog exposes, but having worked closely with him for several months, checking his sources and information, he is not a liar.

Ergun willfully and intentionally lied over and over again for over ten years now, since it is continuing, and with no repentance, a small slap on the hand, and the enablement by Christians who should know better to continue on to another school to continue doing what he is doing. Huge Difference. Caner is once again a leader and he should not be in that position.

I don't know what bothers me more, Tim Lee's answers or your question. It should be obvious the answer to both.

But we don't know if the story is true or not do we?

Debbie Kaufman said...

Sometimes I read these comments and think, someday I will wake up. Surely the Church as a whole is not this dysfunctional. But I am certainly beginning to wonder.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Tim is not a reliable source on this matter. Close friends of Caner in the ministry have shown themselves to be unable to recognize what caner has done. I stand by my source.

How absolutely comical that Tim has analyzed each and every word of my post multiple times, yet can't see that Caner has lied and deceived for years.

Tim when you say your committee never heard Caner lie, your credibility goes out the window. Your best bet is to remain silent as the more you defend and explain the worse it is

Anonymous said...

Ergun Caner's nearly 500K house has been for sale for months. He was obviously planning to go somewhere.

I have several close friends who go to Thomas Road. All of them without an exception feel that Ergun is a liar and is full of himself.

Dr Ergun Caner (satire) said...

WD, you said it all at 12:37.

Tim Lee can't be trusted when he calls black white. He can't answer the question I posed to him either.

I wonder if I announced that Tim Lee was a polygamist, and has had more than 3 wives at the same time, I wonder if Tim Lee would understand I just misspoke? Of course, I would say this about Tim Lee on several different occasions, because like Caner, I would misspeak often. Tim Lee could not say that I lied, no siree.

Debbie Kaufman said...

Watchdog's word is good enough for me. Watchdog, I believe you. I stand by your credibility 100%. It's just too bad it took Liberty a year to do this, but hey I'll take it. :)

WishIhadknown said...

Yeah but, wouldn't it be nice to have friends like Tim Lee.

Anonymous said...

The Lynchburg News & Advance has this article

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2011/may/19/caner-leaving-liberty-texas-college-post-ar-1049114/

It says “We wish Ergun the very best in his new assignment and would have been delighted to have him continue serving here,” said Ron Godwin, a longtime administrator at LU. “We will miss his contribution.”

Not to say that there couldn't have been a behind the scenes power struggle but LU's public face (as usual) is that they support Caner.

Anonymous said...

Caner Leaves LU

Anonymous said...

Above is the link to the News and Advance story since the whole thing didn't paste in right

Fredericka said...

WishIhadknown said...

"Yeah but, wouldn't it be nice to have friends like Tim Lee."

Years ago there was a song whose lyrics ran, "If I had a friend like Rosemary Woods, how simple my life would be. Oh, Ro-Ro-Rosemary Woods, how simple my life would be." I haven't heard that song in ages. Rosemary Woods was Richard Nixon's loyal secretary, who was willing to take the blame for erasing the gap in the tapes. I don't think EC's friends are really doing him any favors, though, by covering up for him, attacking his accusers, etc. His career wouldn't be nose-diving now if he had stood up and shouldered responsibility earlier.

Jim said...

I'm amused by several who have posted that Arlington Baptist College is an "accredited" college. Well, yes, it is accredited by the Association for Biblical Higher Education, but it is certainly not accredited in any traditional sense as an institution for higher education in the state of Texas or anywhere else. It is not accredited by SACS (the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools), which accredits nearly every legitimate college and university in Texas, and throughout the South. Liberty is accredited by SACS. I guess Arlington Baptist College might be a pretty good little Bible college, but it is not a institution of higher education, if you want to do the hard work of earning a legitimate degree. And about the school's history: it was founded by old Dr. J. Frank Norris, an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist preacher from Fort Worth, who spent his life picketing, protesting and otherwise attacking the Southern Baptist Convention and the Cooperative Program. Yeah, the school's got a history of which it can really be proud. Now, students of ABS, attack me and tell me I am incorrect, please.

Caner, with his inflated academic resume and distance-learning doctorate, will probably be one of the more intelligent members of the faculty. Watch out Dr. Moody, he may be coming for your job...sooner than you think.

Anonymous said...

IMO, the Tim Lee endorsement solidifies my distrust of Ergun Caner. See, I used to work for an ex-evangelist who started a 'mega church' in Sevierville, TN named Gene Wolfenbarger. Gene was one of Tim's boys back in the evangelism days and over the years I have seen both of their true colors. Behind closed doors the are ego maniacal, narcissistic, and have absolutely no respect for their 'sheep' other than the fact that it's their money that helps to build buildings (or idols).

The only sad part to me is that I grew up in arlington and now there's another lying, self indulgent 'man of God' duping and tricking the ones that look up to them.

Tim Lee said...

It's a great day. I want to sincerely apologize to any of whom I've hurt while being here. I knew it was a risk when i decided to post without much to win on my part.Knowing I would be in th minority dud not matter.I looked a 60lb mine in the face and survived it.I do have respect,even though we might not agree on some issues,for those who post using a real name. I could have used a fake name or just used anonymous and you might have never have known it was me. I had nothing to hide and still don't.

My friends still love me and my enemies will do what they will an those in-between are left to sort it out.

I don't thi k FBC JAX was lying when he said Ergun was shown the door. I think he was mistaken. Ergun spoke just yesterday in the Christian Academdy connected with LU.

It doesn't take a big person to sigh in under anonymous. Makes you look very small. At any rate I hope each of you have a great weekend. God bless you and yours.

Tim

PS I would imagine if you were to come to one of my meetings and we were to set down for a meal you and I would find more to agree on than to fight about.

Anonymous said...

Tim, you forget the horrid things done to Tom when they found out his name. That is how they operate and why they used unethical measures to get his name.

Some of us have had similar done to us by "Christian" leaders.

How about we focus on facts and issues instead of personalities. But then, it is very hard to go after people when you don't know their names.


It is simple: We are on to the tactics you all use.

I am sure you refuse to read Hebrews since it is anonymous.

James said...

"It doesn't take a big person to sigh in under anonymous. Makes you look very small. At any rate I hope each of you have a great weekend. God bless you and yours."

One thing, some of the people using names could be using a fake or screen name.

Not making accusations, just saying!

Jim said...

Tim, I love you Brother, and I love my Marines. I've followed your story, heard your preach, and have even been on the stage with you. You're a good man, but you are disgracing yourself and the legacy of all Marines by continuing to defend Ergun Caner. Please, give it a rest. Keep telling YOUR story. Don't defend a lying preacher who has traded in the blood of the victims of 9/11. It is not becoming and it is certainly not the intent of Semper Fideles.

ABC Alum said...

Jim,

You are correct that ABC is accredited with the ABHE. However, we are on target in our goal of pursuing SACS and this is one of our short-term goals.
It is irresponsible to assume that because we are small and not as well known that our faculty must be unintelligent or uneducated. We have faculty members with doctorates from schools such as UTA, UNT & Texas Womens in addition to others.
We are also recognized by the state of Texas in our education department and our education students can go directly into the public school system.
Just wanted to clarify a couple of things.

Kimberly said...

Tim

You have reiterated over and over again that Caner was offered another contract to teach. However, you have not disclosed the details.

Is it possible that the contract offered him was not as lucrative as his current? Is it possible that there may not have been as many perks or financial benefits to the 'NEW' contract?

If this is the case then it would be great for you and he and everybody else who want to keep the 'dirty side of ministry' behind the curtain and make everything seem righteous and clean on the outside. That way you could say 'Caner was not forced out ... we offered him a new contract' but the truth is that the contract offered to him was offered knowing that he would not accept. In the eyes of others, this could be construed as 'forcing him out'.

Any possibility of truth there?

Andy said...

Tim said ...

"Satan doesn't like it when good things are happening so who does he attack? Those who are doing something for HIM. Sorry bout the caps :-)"

It's always nice to keep the sheep smoke screened while you guys live high on the hog doing work for HIM.

I would say it a different way ... Christ does not like it when His Bride is tricked and duped by hucksters and fancy speach so that false teachers can live materialistic lifestyles ...'

I pray that God truly does bless you by tearing down the outer shell of materialism and pomp at the expense of His Bride.

joshua said...

Jim said "Caner, with his inflated academic resume and distance-learning doctorate, will probably be one of the more intelligent members of the faculty. Watch out Dr. Moody, he may be coming for your job...sooner than you think."

I find your comments rather insulting to our faculty and arrogant on your part! You need to do some research into our faculty before you start making ignorant statements.

joshua said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
joshua said...

This should help your quest Jim... http://abclibrary.wikispaces.com/Faculty+Pages

joshua said...

In case you are wondering, Jim, here is Dr. Moody's educational background... He graduated from North Lamar High School in 1977. He graduated from Arlington Baptist College with a BA in 1983. He completed a Masters Degree at Moody Graduate School in Chicago , IL and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Covington Theological Seminary

Not bad for an intelligent guy...:)

Jim said...

Joshua, I wasn't wondering...I wasn't wondering at all. I know the background of your school and it's president. A D.Min. from Covington. That says more than enough. Send them the prescribed amount of money...don't forget the money...and spend a little while doing some online and/or correspondence courses just a bit more rigorous than Sunday School, and you too can have one. You will not have to labor, doing research in great libraries nor defend your work to brilliant theological minds. Just send the money...don't forget the money, take the courses, write some papers, and perhaps offer a pseudo-academic defense and "presto-chango, abracadebra, you're a "Doctor." Isn't that swell! Wouldn't we be so much better off if Medical Doctors and Engineers who design high rise bridges and buildings had such lofty standards. Am I cynical. Absolutely!

Anonymous said...

"One thing, some of the people using names could be using a fake or screen name. "

Exactly. But logic is not their strong suit when they try to change the subject to rebuke anonymous commenters. They are only trying to deflect from Caner's lies.

joshua said...

I stand by my school and the capabilities of our administrators and faculty. I cannot express in words the debt I owe for the Christian education I have received thus far. A week ago none of you cared about Arlington Baptist College, but now you suddenly have taken an interest. Your hatred for Dr. Ergun Caner is merely being transfered upon our school. I'll bid you all farewell and know you'll be watching us. Maybe I'l be successful enough to one day be featured in this blog!:)

1 Peter 3:16-17 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Anonymous said...

Tim Lee: Ergun Caner never lied.

All of us: What?? Please sir, look at the pile of documented evidence.

Tim Lee: 98 out of 100 times he got it right. He just misspoke twice.

All of us: No sir, look at the same lies being told at different times in different locations to different crowds for nine years.

Tim Lee: Man, I'd really like to know your names...

All of us: The issue, sir, is the denial of Caner's flagrant public sin.

Tim Lee: What's your name son? It would help me communicate better with you if I knew.

All of us: Just stop defending him... You have lost all credibility.

Tim Lee: Anonymous posters have lost all credibility with me!

All of us: *sigh*

Rocky Lindley: *crickets*

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Joshua - I have absolutely no interest in your school, and your school is not the topic of this blog.

I would add that nothing said here about your school says more than the actions of your school administration in hiring Ergun Caner. That tells me all I need to know, more than the qualifications of your staff or of your accreditation.

Anonymous said...

joshua said...
I am a student at this SMALL obscure College to which you have made reference. Are you aware that Arlington Baptist College has been around for over 75 years??? Did you know the campus is a historical landmark and has been featured in numerous magazines and covered by several media outlets? Do a google search for "Top O Hill Terrace."

The size of the school has nothing to do with the quality of Christian education offered. Abc is a fully accredited college and has one of the best education departments in the area. Many of our graduates are immediately hired by local public schools districts. The faculty consists of many extremely talented professors, all of whom possess a true passion for the Lord and training students for the work of the ministry. Many of my professors have Masters and Doctorate degrees from Southern Baptist Seminaries such as: South Western Theological and Dallas Theological. Several of our professors have published books as well. While we are a small Independent Baptist College, we have been training faithful servants of Christ for over 75 years!

I challenge this blogger to take a trip to Arlington Baptist College and see firsthand the best kept secret in the DFW area!

May 20, 2011 1:17 AM

Some observations:
"Joshua" begins as a student, but towards the end sounds very much like someone on staff. Students don't normally speak that way of their college.

Tim Lee totally avoided the topic of his defending Dr. Bob Gray the pedophile. I'm convinced he would defend anyone in his circle. (We all need a friend like him)

Jim, the things you listed abt J.Frank Norris were only the tip of the iceberg. The man was a total nut-job, ended up shooting and killing a man in his office. That the school was founded by him, is all one needs to know abt ABC.

Wow, is this the same area where Gilyard carried on some of his nonsense? Sounds like a haven for a bunch of looneys.

The Other Tom said...

To Tim Lee;

Sir, I never heard of you before reading your comments on this page. But after reading your statement:

"We,the committee never found one instance of Ergun lying."

I am making a promise before the Lord God Almighty to NEVER do three things until such time as you repent of it, retract it, and issue a public apology for your LIE:

1: I will NEVER give the slightest bit of crediblity to a single word that comes forth from you, either orally or in writing.

2: I will NEVER have the slightest bit of involvement with any organization, institution, ministry, ect. that you have the least bit of involvement with.

3: I will NEVER fail to attempt to persuade any person involved with Liberty University to go elsewhere so long as people of your ilk that shield proven pathological liars such as E. Michael Caner are in any position of authority there.

Anonymous said...

" would add that nothing said here about your school says more than the actions of your school administration in hiring Ergun Caner. That tells me all I need to know, more than the qualifications of your staff or of your accreditation"

Amen!

But I predict that with Caner's showmanship the school will grow. And some will think that is a blessing from God and proof of his spirituality.

They are followers of men.

Tim Lee defended Bob Gray? The pervert minister?

The Squirrel said...

I'm late to the party again. I was out of town the end of last week, and didn't see this post until it was pointed out to me this evening.

Tim Lee said...

"We,the committee never found one instance of Ergun lying."

Well, then, the committee didn't find it because they didn't look very hard. As they used to say on the X-Files, "The Truth is Out There."

Squirrel

joshua said...

I promised earlier that I would not continue in this discussion; however, curiosity and boredom have gotten the best of me.

This is directed to the anonymous poster accusing me of being a staff member at Arlington Baptist College. Although I am flattered by you "compliment", I assure you I am not a staff member. I am simply a student who has been tremendously blessed with the opportunity to attend Bible College. Being the "small" school you have observed us to be provides for the privilege of knowing the faculty personally. I, therefore, consider an attack on my school an attack on my "family."

I am a little surprised this announcement has received the attention it has. Not bad for a small obscure college eh?

James said...

joshua said...

I am a little surprised this announcement has received the attention it has. Not bad for a small obscure college eh?

May 23, 2011 4:28 AM

Trust me, your school would have never gotten so much attention had they not hired an habitual liar. This would have happened no matter what school he was hired at.

Jon L. Estes said...

Joshua -

You say" " I, therefore, consider an attack on my school an attack on my "family." "

Good word.

Ergun is a great guy with faults who has, as far as I can tell, walked through the accusations with those he was accountable to and came out humbled and blessed. Those who spent time with him (Dr. Tim Lee was one I believe) understood his intent on humor, his misspeak on dates, his poor pronunciation of some words, his confusion of events.

This blog is not going away. It seems to me that the owner and those who agree with him believe it is their mission in life to expose the culprits to the world, to demand apologies be done in specific ways, to crush anyone they target until they get what they want. I could be wrong but that is the way it looks.

Dr. Caner is going to ABC, good for him and ABC. Don't let these few folks dampen your day. God is still on the throne, Ergun will still be used to further God's kingdom and at the end of the day the most vile person on this blog (and that could be me) is still one of God's creations who deserves our prayers.

Keep studying and serving God. I don't know you but I am proud of you.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Joshua - Jon Estes is not going away. It seems to me that Jon and those who agree with him believe it is their mission in life to correct bloggers they don't agree with, to demand that blogging be done in specific ways, to keep criticizing and mischaracterizing the intentions of bloggers until they get what they want - which is this blog to be shut down. I could be wrong but that is the way it looks.

Jon L. Estes said...

Tom - There is one major difference between us. I will go to those I disagree with and speak to them directly. I won't speak about them to others.

These are major differences between us. I think important differences. Of course I am not even trying to close you down but will, if possible, bring a rational thought every now and then to the consistent attacking of fellow Christians.

I know, I know you don't see what is happening here against people like Caner and Brunson as attacks. That may be the saddest part of it all.

Anonymous said...

Forget Caner, ABC misses a golden opportunity if they don't make every effort to hire Joshua. And what in the world would we do without Jon, the voice of reason? Humor is a good thing!!!

Anonymous said...

I know, I know you don't see what is happening here against people like Caner and Brunson as attacks. That may be the saddest part of it all.

Jon, what country do you live in perhaps communist Russia, your statement sure accounts for it. Our government was set up to rear the people of the land and now we the people fear government. Once we loose our voice people like you will ripen in your pride. We the people need more people like tom.

Jon L. Estes said...

"Jon, what country do you live in perhaps communist Russia, your statement sure accounts for it. Our government was set up to rear the people of the land and now we the people fear government. Once we loose our voice people like you will ripen in your pride. We the people need more people like tom."

Do you really believe the personal attacks against Caner, though protected by free speech, are God honoring?

Marcus Pittman said...

The funny thing about this is Tim Lee doesn't even see how this blog post actually gave Liberty University some much needed credibility.

Here is how it went down.

Blog post states that Liberty University did something good and admirable.

Time Lee says "No we didn't."

The Other Tom said...

"Do you really believe the personal attacks against Caner, though protected by free speech, are God honoring?"

Yes, and according to I Corinthians 5 and Galatians 2, Biblically necessary.

Dr Ergun Caner (satire) said...

Jon Estes - I DID email Ergun Caner privately first. I respectfully asked him about the discrepancies I had seen when this came to light in early 2010.

He never responded to me.

I sent the email to his LU email address as well as his erguncaner.com address.

Nothing.

I also respectfully emailed his pastor, Jonathan Falwell.

He never responded either.

When it became clear they were circling the wagons, only then did I decide to use a serrated edge.

"...understood his intent on humor, his misspeak on dates, his poor pronunciation of some words, his confusion of events." Right Jon Estes, keep telling yourself that and maybe it will eventually become true.

Telling people on multiple occasions that his father had multiple wives at the same time - that one lie alone - is enough to debunk your pathetic defense of him. And that lie is the tip of the iceberg.

Anonymous said...

A couple things come immediately to mind

1 it is true that Dr Caner has not learned anything during this embarrassing ordeal. But what is truly da is that the Leadership at Liberty haven't either. Dr Falwell Jr apparently still wants Mr Caner around. Oh how the mighty have fallen as I think many would agree that Dr Falwell Sr would not have tolerated such lack of integrity.

2. Neither Liberty University not Thomas Road Church are SBC. They may want to be but not yet. Originally both were part of the Baptist Bible Fellowship headquartered in Springfield, MO. It was and is a very strict, fundamentalist, independent Baptist group. I grew up in a couple of these churches and they make the Pharisees legalism look like rampant out of control libertine-ism. I am sure that the move at TRC and LU indicate a move away from that but SBC they are not and I hope that the Virginia State Convention does not soon admit them in large part due to this fiasco.

Shame on those at LU who still want him there. It had become a fine institution. I had considered attending- being military Thierry distance Ed program is very attractive but I would rather pay more at another school than have a degree tainted by such scandal.

I pry for Dr Caner's, Dr Falwell Jr and the Trustees repentance of thier arrogance and lack of integrity.

joshua said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Other Tom said...

"Great men of God" do NOT engage in a near decade-long campaign of lies, deceit, and fraud so as to totally recreate their life's story.

And so long as this blight upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ remains in any public role within Christian circles, those of us who are faithful to Scripture have a duty before God to oppose this charlatin until such time as he offers proper biblical repentance for his sins.

joshua said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Other Tom said...

There is no "If" about it.

And an "apology" is not Biblical repentance. If he had true Biblical repentance, Caner would sit down, shut up, and NEVER allow himself to be seen in any sort of leadership position in the church, EVER.

Cindy said...

I am personal friends with the Caner family. Your ignorance of the REAL situation & details and your rapid run to judgement glare brightly against someone you yourself accuse of lying. Hold your stones. YOU are the ones funneling lies about this man without knowing exactly what you are talking about. Congrats to Ergun & family and ABC. Our loss is your gain.

Anon Emus said...

Good riddance. The man was a charlatan and a pathological liar. I am so glad Liberty decided to fire him instead of keeping him there and drinking his kool-aid. If only the first baptist jax members would wake up and kick Mac out. That would be the day.

The Other Tom said...

Cindy, it is a matter of record that Caner took advantage of one of the greatest tragedies in the history of this country, and LIED THROUGH HIS TEETH for TEN YEARS to personally profit from a situation that killed thousands of people.

Ergun Caner is a despicable human being. But I don't know what is more pathetic; he, or dupes like yourself who continue to defend this creature.

Pity for Cindy said...

Pay no attention to Cindy Capps. She has been blindly defending Caner for a year now.

"YOU are the ones funneling lies about this man without knowing exactly what you are talking about."

Right Cindy. We don't know what we are talking about. When Ergun told the Marines his father had more than 1 wife at a time - specifically that he had 3 wives at the same time - we don't know what we are talking about.

Go back to Sweet Frog, have a yogurt, and stop defending the indefensible.

Anonymous said...

I have lived in Arlington most of my life and most of the churches I have been a member of have been affiliated with ABC in some way. I have known people that have attended and graduated from ABC. I have known and now know people that are on staff at ABC. My dad was saved under the preaching of a former President of ABC

I did not attend ABC nor would I allow my kids to attend. ABC is in threat of losing its accreditation and anyone who says otherwise just simply doesn’t know the facts or willingly turns a blind eye. ABC has been on the verge of bankruptcy for as long as I can remember. I believe they have shown a very small profit once in the last five years. Their current finance guy has no experience or education with finances. Staff members have routinely been paid late, because the school didn’t have the money to make payroll. They are, in short, a mess.

“Dr.” Moody pastored a church in Arlington who’s back door was as healthy as its front. I have seen him to be a man lacking in character, so to hire someone like Ergun, to be quite honest, just makes sense to me. They deserve each other.

MikeR said...

Wow! I was doing some web surfing and just came across this. I am a Bible believing Christian and find this to be simply amazing. I’d bet that if a non-believer was to come across this, they’d find it much more entertaining than the Protestants versus the Catholics. I’m glad you folks are working so hard to further the Kingdom. Is this what He’s called you to do?

As to my personal opinion of the situation, I think that the watchdog has an incredible desire to poke out his fellow sinners eye as a way to assure that the speck is removed, but he’s having problems with the beam in his own eye. I realize that we’re called to be discerning, and to hold those in positions of authority to a higher standard, however I believe that you folks have totally gone way above & beyond the call of duty.

I don’t intend to get into a back and forth with you folks, as I don’t have a college edjamacashun, and I learned a long time ago that you intellectually superior folks would just eat me alive (in Christian love, of course!). So please don’t point out my grammatical errors as I probably wouldn’t understand.

While having doubts about one’s faith, it’s folks like you that create more confusion and disillusionment. Thanks for pushing me closer to the edge. And if perchance my words don’t betray my thoughts – I make this posting in anger. I truly hope that you can get the big sticks out of your own eyes someday!

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYSLJ2oeebY&feature=related

Steve Samples said...

First let me say I am a supporter of Ergun Caner. However, I do believe the evidence shows he did embellish on his testimony, but it is not mine or anybody elses place to convict him. He is the Lords servant not ours and it is His place to convict him and He does not need our help. I think the Lord has done that and Ergun's embellishment was exposed. I think the greatest atrocity is how the body of Christ is publicly divided over the matter. As far as Ergun going to a smaller school let me say that in April 2008 Ergun came and spent a weekend preaching at the church I attend with a membership of only about 300 people in a town with a population of only 900. I am certain he could have found a bigger engagemnet that weekend had that been his desire but he chose to do his work in my small church. Yes, the testimony he gave at my church was not in alignment with the facts of his history when they came out, however he did preach the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, was buried and on the third day rose from the dead and people got saved. The Holy Spirit used him and has used throughout his ministry, so why are others so quick to throw himunder the bus? If he repents and no longer embellishes I am confident the Lord will continue to use him. I would encourage everybody to just chill, set back and let us watch what the Lord is going to do. If the Lord uses him then that is our assurance that the Lord has forgiven him and therefore we should to. He messed up indeed as we all have. Maybe he could have handled it better, but let us see what the Lord does. Give this man a chance to do right from here on out. He has always made an awesome presentation of the gospel message of our Lord and the Lord has used him in big ways. His embellishments were exposed, he was stripped naked in front of all of us to see. Let's not mock him, but rather let's him him get re-clothed so he can go on about doing the business the Lord has called him to do. Again, the greatest atrocity is the division in the body of Christ over this. He opened the wound, but you won't let it heal. God Bless you Ergun Caner I wish you well my (not yet perfect)brother in Christ!! We are all who are saved going to be perfect one day, but we are not today. I seriously doubt that Erguns mistake is any greater than many of ours, only he is on a bigger stage that everybody saw his mistake. Let us not be Christian Pharisee's and place a yoak on him that the Lord does not intend him to carry. If the Lord has a yoak let the Lord put it on Him if He chooses.

Steve Samples said...

I believe when we are at the judgement seat of Christ we will witness Ergun Caner recieve many crowns to lay at the feet of Jesus.He has done and continues to do much work for the Kingdom!! Yes,I believe he sinned, but we have a mediator that died for that sin. Based on the looks of this blog many in here are likely to be mere spectators at the judgement seat of Christ sitting on their thumbs watching Ergun go forward to recieve his crowns for all of the work he has done for the kingdom. I've heard his gospel presentation and I witnessed people get saved and that's what I went for. I didn't go to hear the story of his life. If you are more offended at the personl autobiogrophy he gave of himself than you are grateful of his gospel presentation that Christ died for our sins, was buried and raised on the thrid day then maybe you went to listen to him for the wrong reasons?

Steve Samples said...

There is very little good fruit in this blog. If I had a tree that produced this kind of fruit I would cut it down and use it for firewood!!!

Steve Samples said...

Matthew 23
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Anonymous said...

I don't think Tim Lee is putting the weight of everything into place. I remember a guy by the name of Mike Warnke that made sensational statements in the eighties in believing he was doing a service. It shipwrecked some I sure when they found out his past was a hoax.

Richelle said...

I have to say that I'm in the middle on the Ergun Caner controversy. On one hand, I did find him a blessing from my favorite book Costly Call Part 1, to his visits to my church, to his podcasts. Love him or hate him, he produced much fruit. On the other hand, I do believe that he did wrong. I can't ignore the decidely more 'Arab' way he started to look after 9/11. And the video shown of him speaking jibberish and trying to pass it off as Arabic (I speak Arabic BTW) is nothing anyone can explain away I don't care how many hours you've spent with him. I mean Arabic is not even the language of Turkey! He definitely aimed to deceive in the pursuit of fame and fortune from books/speaking engagements. However, I don't think we should shoot our wounded. He does not deserve to be restored to his previous position, but he does deserve intercessary prayer, not judgement.

ThePlentifulHarvest said...

As a graduate from Liberty University 2010, I'm embarrassed over the Caner controversy. I'm also embarrassed how Liberty handled it and how they can't call a spade a spade.

This double speak may be acceptable in politics today, but should not be coming from a Christian school. A lie is a lie, and Caner lied. It was not a misspeak of factual statements or however they put it.

Love of money is the root of all evil and unfortunately the love of money that Caner brought in was more important than the love of God and truth.

Scot Brandon

Mike in VA said...

Wow.

I did follow this whole thing for some time after becoming familiar with the Caners through the Caner-White debate that was cancelled.

In Luke 13 Jesus says, "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

When we see things like this happen- providentially, God had brought to light certain facts and removed this man from his place of authority- what is the lesson for us?

We all need to take a deep look into our our own hearts, repent and commit ourselves to Christ- following Him in faith and obedience. Let's judge ourselves so others in the body of Christ don't have too.

I'm not against this blog- this stuff is necessary. I know Christ desires purity in the body just like He desires purity in me personally. But let us not miss the personal, internal applications that Scripture clearly calls us to as well as the necessary, external grief we know when a believer falls.

Thanks for all the comments on this site- some of them were absolutely brillant.

Tim Mills said...

Part 2
I feel as if the largest body of Christian protesters of Ergun's apparent silence publicly on these accusatory issues regarding profession of sin and repentance offering to us offended brothers do not have meanness of spirit in their hearts toward him but concern for his "doing the Biblically advised thing" toward those left without publicly-directed specifics of repentance for wrong that he so readily offered in the private setting you, Tim Lee, refer to - the obviously private lofty perches at LU's administration.
Remember, Jimmy Swaggert came to public media-covered repentance to his TV audience so unashamedly and in absence of personal pridefulness that the larger Christian body drew him back in in welcome heartfelt forgiveness.
I trust in all this that it encourages us all as Christians to more exclusively and explicitly put our faith in the dependability of righteous example God only in Jesus Christ only gives in the Bible only, and never, never, never put trust in the holiest-seeming examples of Christian leadership. Guys like you Tim Lee, and Ergun, the rest - are every one as guilty and sinful as the rest of the anonymous body of our mutual Christ, and it's a dangerous thing to allow mass exposure of media and church organization speaking invitations to convince oneself to any degree that the wrong one can do can be resolved without repentance to those brothers wronged.
Many of us, speaking from personal experience, life lives of humble change from having repented of great but unpublicized wrongs we did for the remainder of our lives, not balking at the repentance to the wronged, and living thereafter with the conscience and behavior burden to live differently than before in Jesus' eyes.
Just so you know, Tim, my anonymity in use of a screen nom de plume is to keep virus and spam ID software scouring the web from detecting my name, ID, other pertinent data I want to protect from thieves. If you want to know me to talk with I invite it but expect you'll give it the same attention you gave when I posted a comment on Ergun and your support of him to the only available contact with you through your ministry web site.
Ergun's historically recorded statements were the divisive action in the Body. The Christian body's responses to this are not the divisive source. We need to try to not confuse or intermix the two in origin and implication. You quickly got way off the issue of the Christian public's reason for speaking of Ergun's action (or resultant inaction of no public statement to the Body about repentance) here and I welcome personal one on one contact to convey my feelings about this and hear yours openly. Let me know here as a start if you wish.
God bless us all, bring us all as a Body ever closer in support and encouragement for and to each other in our lives here, and answer our faith with Heaven's fulfillment.
Psalms 91