Is Our Problem "Legalism" or "Hypocrisy"?

Mac Brunson declared us a "hotbed of legalism".

Some of his supporters have posted here agreeing with Mac that we were or are legalistic; then citing examples of supposed "legalism" that are not even legalism. So Mac labels us legalistic (which is such a damning phrase that no SBC church wants to labeled), and those that agree with Mac's assessment don't even know what it is. Just eight years after Homer's death and two years since Vines leaves and we don't even...well, I digress.

So Mac has passed judgement on us as "legalistic". And in front of 100's of SBC pastor's to boot.

Sure, over the years many in Jacksonville have claimed FBC Jacksonville members were "legalists", but it was usually the liberals that called us that because we took strong stands against sin in our city. Our church used to know the difference between "legalism" and "high standards" and "strong stands against sin".

While we're talking about labels - another label applied to FBC Jacksonville over the years is "hypocrite". People in our city have long called our church members hypocrites...claiming that we say one thing with our mouths, then behave in ways contrary to what we say.

So Mac has called us legalistic. Now for Mac's diagnosis.

Mac, you're not a "legalist". But Mac, you are a "hypocrite". And now you've given the city reasons to believe our church is hypocritical.

Why are you a hypocrite?

You say you are concerned over crime in Jacksonville.

But your actions say otherwise. Unlike you not telling us why we are legalistic, I'll tell you why I call you a hypocrite:

1. You agreed to sit on the mayor's Crime Prevention Steering Committee. But as the Florida Times Union reported you made only 2 of 7 committee meetings. This is not surprising; you vacate your pulpit at only a slightly better rate than that; and you don't tell us most of the time when you won't be there, you just, well aren't there (which we don't mind so much anymore). Hopefully you showed the Steering Committee members like Wayne Weaver, Nat Glover, John Delaney, and Steven Wallace more respect than you do your congregation by letting them know in advance you won't be there. Or is that being "legalistic" to expect you to tell people you won't be there?

2. You promised Rev. Daniel Jones on Sunday, September 30, 2007, that FBC Jacksonville would help him get his church sanctuary (Christ Ministry of Changing Lives) back and operational. His church is in one of the most crime-ridden areas of our city, and the federal ATF agent investigating the arson says that his sanctuary was burned down because of the positive impact his church was having in his neighborhood. You even had him come to the church on that Sunday night, and you even called him to the platform so you could promise to him in front of all of us that our church (under Trey's able leadership) would help him. Then we read in the Florida Times Union 6 months later that Rev. Jones is still not in his sanctuary, and is still well short of his goal according to the Times Union article. We can only assume that FBC Jax did not follow through with its commitment, else one would assume FBC Jax would be listed on the list of rebuilding sponsors at Rev. Jones' website.

3. On the same day that you collected a special offering to pay for local TV advertising and to pay to put your sermons back on national TV, the Florida Times Union had an article describing how Rev. Jones' church still isn't in his sanctuary. You used your power and influence to raise money to put yourself on TV in local commercials and on national Christian TV, while Rev. Jones was putting a tent up to hold services next to his burned out building.

You're a hypocrite and I've explained why. You say you're concerned about crime in Jacksonville. But you can't attend the Steering Committee Meetings, and Pastor Jones is still not able to fully function in his crime-ridden area of Jacksonville after we promised to help him. If any of these facts are wrong, please let us know here, or better yet tell your congregation.

Now, can you explain why WE'RE legalists?

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Note: this site gets 500 views per day...if you are reading this and would like to contribute to Pastor Jones' church's rebuilding efforts, you can do so through "PayPal" at his website: Christ Ministry of Changing Lives. If you instead would like to contribute to Mac's Media Evangelism to pay for the Starbuck's commercials and to put Mac's sermons on nationwide Christian TV, go to the FBC Jax website.

First Baptist Academy: New School in a Hotbed of Legalism

Jacksonville - you are no doubt aware that First Baptist Church Jacksonville is working to open a school in the Fall of 2009. The name of the school is the First Baptist Academy of Jacksonville. Pastor Mac Brunson is the founding pastor of this school.

Here is a link to the school's website: http://www.fbcjaxacademy.com/

You might be interested in knowing that the pastor of First Baptist Jacksonville, Mac Brunson, the founder of this school, said the following about his church, which will operate the school as a ministry to Jacksonville as a part of our desire to spread the gospel:

"Down in Jacksonville, I'm in a hotbed of legalism. Everybody has a list of rules, and they all seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ."

If I were a parent looking for a Christian school, I would be very concerned about sending my kid to a school where the church operating the school is a "hotbed of legalism" according to the pastor. I also would be concerned if the pastor things "everybody has a list of rules", and that no one "has a real relationship with Jesus Christ". I don't think we want our kids indoctrinated by legalists, do we?

To be fair, here are the links where you can hear the words of the First Baptist Academy of Jacksonville founder. These were spoken by Mac Brunson on April 7th, 2008, while preaching in North Carolina at a pastor's conference.

"I'm in a hotbed of legalism" - the short version

"I'm in a hotbed of legalism" - the longer, more "in context" version.

Buyer beware. You might want to contact Mac Brunson for some clarification on what he meant if you are concerned.

Words Mean Things

The last week has been quite instructive for the members of First Baptist Church - at least for those who have been concerned over the poor leadership and abuses of Mac Brunson at our church.

We heard Mac say the following to a group of pastors in North Carolina: "....down in Jacksonville I'm in a hotbed of legalism. Everybody's got a list of rules, but they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ."

Of course one might think that Mac was referring to "Jacksonville" in the broad geographic sense, as in "this area of the country"...but our blogging friends who speak to the pastor and other staff members helped clarify that Mac was not talking about "Jacksonville", but really "First Baptist Church Jacksonville". In fact if you listen to the quote in context, its clear that prior to the "hotbed" quote he was talking about the church in general, then turned his comments to the church "down in Jacksonville" in particular.

Said one of Mac's supporters in the previous thread:

"The problem Watchdog has is simple. Fact is FBC has been legalistic for years. So, when our pastor calls this sin out, he takes it personally. Makes complete sense. Then he turns the gun on our pastor and calls it slander.....Fact is he [Mac] has been fighting this trend from the beginning. WD has had his eyes closed to this until now."

So now we know...Mac has an agenda to "fix" this legalism that is rampant at our church - and the key is: HE'S BEEN FIGHTING THIS FROM THE BEGINNING. As I said in the previous thread, this helps give us context now to look back at what has happened to our church over the past two years. If the man came here to eradicate the "legalism", no wonder the staff changes - no wonder the abusive preaching from the pulpit. Perhaps, even the small group of lay leaders who courted Mac to come here, lavished him with gifts and perks because - well - he was coming here to save our church from the dreaded legalism we were in! Those of us who know something of what legalism is, and what its like to be in a legalistic church, know full well that our church is not legalistic, or even that we are trending in that direction. That is not to say we don't have our own set of problems, but legalism happens to not be one of them. If anything, the standards we used to have that some claimed were legalism have become more lax in just about every area of church life - including rules on nepotism and accepting large gifts from donors of the church.

So perhaps Mac can clarify when he has a chance to return to the pulpit what makes us legalistic. Let's help him out a bit and parse his statement and ask some pertinent questions:

1. "...down in Jacksonville, I'm in a hotbed of legalism"....ok, that is interesting. Mac doesn't just say we are legalistic, but that actually we are a "hotbed" of legalism (notice he is the subject of the sentence - "I'm in a hotbed" - why its all about Mac, isn't it?) Being the learned and well-read man that he is, I'm sure Mac used that word exactly as he meant it: a "hotbed" is a spawning ground, a place where rapid growth occurs. So Mac is saying our church is so legalistic that it is a place where legalism is growing and expanding, perhaps festering. Quite interesting. I'm sure that assessment of our church will really help attract people downtown that we're trying to reach - And don't those pastors want to come down to a conference at the "2009 Hotbed of Legalism Pastor's Conference". And this will certainly help attract quality staff members to our church to replace Calvin Carr and Lainge Patrick - I mean who doesn't want to go serve in a "hotbed of legalism". And of course parents all over town will be beating our doors down to enroll their kids in this "hotbed of legalism". But that will be for a future post: "Send your kids to First Baptist Academy: the Hotbed of Legalism in Jacksonville". Maybe our mascot can be the FBA "Fightin' Recalcitrant Legalists".

2. "...everbody's got their list of rules..." Can you tell us who is "everybody" Mac? And what kind of list? Is it like Ghost's list yesterday of your abuses that troubles you? Just what rules? Are they the rules that say: when the pastor comes we'll give him a $300k piece of land? That rule didn't seem to bother you much. Is it the rule that we have that says the pastor has the reigns and calls the shots - allowing him to hire family members? Is it the rule that allows you to make changes to our bylaws without making a genuine effort to communicate those to us? Those are fighting words, Mac, to tell a group of pastors that "everybody" at your church as a list of legalistic rules. I don't know about the rest of the people at my church, but I'm going to stand up for my church in the face of your slander - and I'll do it in this blog as my forum despite the nasty attacks bloggers get from your defenders.

3. "...but they seem to have no close personal relationship with Jesus Christ". Just who are these people you're referring to? Are these the majority of your congregation? Besides, wo are you to judge us individually, and why would you pass judgement on us corporately in front of pastors in North Carolina? What is your criteria that you're using to ascertain their close personal relationship with Christ? Is it you and your spiritual elites perhaps are able to assess whether we have close personal relationship to the Lord? Perhaps you're referring to those "recalcitrants" who are turning up the heat on you because of your abuses? You already once said that those who don't agree with your changes are "comfortable in their sin and compromise" - now that quote seems to make more sense since you believe us to be a hotbed of legalism.

Well, its good to know that some in the church leadership reads this blog multiple times every day. We hope that Mac will be briefed on the bag of excrement he has stepped in this time....and we hope that more members of our church become aware of the words of their pastor....sowing discord? No, I call it spreading the truth.

FBC Jacksonville: The "Hotbed of Legalism"

I'm now convinced when Mac Brunson said the following on 4/7/08 when preaching at Hickory Grove Baptist Church, he was referring to his own church:

"...'holding to a form of godliness though they deny the power.' That's legalism. And I want to tell you something, down in Jacksonville I'm in a hotbed of legalism. Everybody's got a list of rules, but they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ."

Mac Brunson, April 7, 2008

Are you reading that FBC Jacksonville? Everybody's got a list of rules, but they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ. That's you FBC Jax member. You have a list. And you have no REAL relationship with Jesus Christ.

That is what Mac Brunson believes about his congregation. And to make matters worse, he doesn't have a problem telling a group of pastors behind our backs when he is out of town and doesn't think anyone is listening.

Be a man, Mac. Don't creep around churches in the SBC telling people that we're legalistic, that you've been attacked by recalcitrants since you arrived. TELL US TO OUR FACES. My guess is you can't, because you're afraid you'll tick too many of us off and we might not keep giving you money.

But FBC Jax, doesn't this help you understand his terrible behavior in the pulpit, and condescending attitude toward us? When you hear him tell a group of pastors in his old stomping grounds in North Carolina that we're legalist and have a list of rules and no real relationship with Jesus Christ - does that not explain why he puts us down as not reading our bibles, that we should humor him at least by flipping through the hymnal, that we're worshipping the past, that he can't find but 50 men just 6 years after Homer died, etc.? Things are becoming clearer.

And doesn't this help explain the housecleaning at our church? If he showed up and found a "hotbed" of legalism, then he needs to clean-out those hard-headed, Pharisaic ministers like Bobby Barton, Doug Pigg, and Lewis Howard. And that fuddy-duddy Rodney Brooks who thinks his music is God's music, he has to go. And he knows his own family can't be legalistic, so definitely bring them and put them on staff to do what these other legalists have done - so legalistically - all these years.

And to make it even more sickening: the one area that one could argue that we HAVE been legalistic about all these years - the tithe - Mac DOES hold on to that legalistic teaching, even having the gall to reach back and play excerpts from that legalist Homer Lindsay, Jr. to remind us that we need to tithe if we're going to see God's blessings.

Slowly but surely, Mac, we're starting to figure you out.

Mac Brunson: "Jacksonville is a Hotbed of Legalism"

Mac Brunson preached 4/7/08 at the "Empowered Church Conference" in Charlotte, NC at Hickory Grove Baptist Church, pastored by Dr. Joe B. Brown. My intent here is to let everyone know that Mac views Jacksonville as a "Hotbed of legalism". I've never heard him say that before here in Jax, and as you'll see below he doesn't explain this claim, so we are left wondering what he means. But before I give you this quote of Mac's, some up front words of explanation.

You can listen to his 4/7/08 sermon at this link: Hickory Grove Sermons. Thank you Dr. Joe B. Brown for having a website at your church that archives every single sermon at your church, whether it be yours or even one of the pastors who spoke at your recent convention. I don't know of many pastors who would make the sermons preached by popular megachurch pastors at a convention available FREE AND CLEAR on their website. It shows that you're interested in getting the Word out to the world, and not holding a conference and making money off of people to purchase the sermons. I think many megachurch pastors who are intent on gathering money from sheep outside their own church could learn a thing or two from you. And certainly our church could look at your website as an example of one that does provide useful sermon resources as a part of its own ministry, and not just giving its sermon ministry over to the pastor's 501(c)3 website.

But about Mac's sermon. Before I point out a few things about this sermon, I want to first explain why I listen to his sermons out of town as I'm able, and then blog about them. No doubt the few anti-Watchdog bloggers who are vocal here calling me a coward and that make assumptions about my mental state and motives, will say I'm out to get Mac, that I need to get a life, etc. No, the reason I am listening to Mac outside of Jacksonville and I encourage you all to do the same, is that it might serve to give us some perspective on what is happening to us in our church. Mac often times preaches "from the hip", and says things I believe he didn't plan to say and probably at times wishes he hadn't said. So it can only help us to listen to Mac's sermons away from his home church to gain some perspective on what he does here and why he does it. We saw this last year in a few sermons he preached in North Carolina that I blogged about.

On the positive side: a very solid sermon from Mac. Those who might think Mac is a "purpose driven" preacher, or that he is somehow not a true conservative, should listen to this sermon on how a preacher can energize their church. When you listen to this sermon it is absent the anger that he is prone to express to us (presumably because he is not angry at his audience?), seems to speak from the heart to preachers, and he is quite funny actually at times. Parts of this sermon he has preached to us, about the "vanishing church" in northern Africa where the 27 books of the NT were confirmed, yet that church is in ruins while a new mosque sits within eyesight. All in all a good sermon that I think our church should hear. He even addresses "election" that many interested in the Calvinism issue in the SBC might be interested in hearing!

Now some of the critiques:

1. In his 2nd point, he talks about the "sustaining sufficiency" of scripture. He gives some "context" for this point talking about "demoniacal times" as described in 2 Tim 3:1 - after reading these verses he says "...have you ever lived in day where you've seen people more unloving than they are in are our day; irreconcilable, and listen I'm not talking about people in the world I'm talking about guys in the church. Pastors even!! Irreconcilable....mad and screaming at everything, furious, upset, day in, day out, irreconcilable". Then he goes on quoting more of 2 Tim 3: "...'holding to a form of godliness though they deny the power.' That's legalism. And I want to tell you something, down in Jacksonville I'm in a hotbed of legalism. Everybody's got a list of rules, but they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ." I find that quite interesting. Just who is he referring to? Christians in Jacksonville in general? Or the stiff-necks at FBC Jax that he thinks "have a list". Not sure what might be on that list, maybe things like "1. pastor should not take quarter million dollar gifts from donors; 2. pastor should not put son and wife on staff with no stated ministerial responsibilities; 3. pastor shouldn't ramrod bylaw changes." Quite a dangerous accusation to throw around, quite a broad brush to be painting with, without explaining one's self clearly. Furthermore, is it really THAT bad? Are people today IN THE CHURCHES furious, upset, mad, day in day out as he claims? Or is that his perception of his experience at FBC Jax and he is projecting that on to his audience of pastors?

2. In the same passage he talks about how pastors will be persecuted. Mac says the following: "....'and indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.' Pastor: that's you, that's me. If you're serving Jesus Christ this day and time let me tell you something somebody's mad at you somewhere. Now if you want to go over in the corner and suck your thumb and say nothing to nobody, then nobody's going to bother you...so you're going to face persecution." He mentioned pastoral persecution to us this past Sunday night, and now he refers to it two days later to these pastors. I interpret this as Mac thinking the opposition he faces at his church is "persecution" at the hand of people in the church because he is "living a godly life in Christ Jesus." I so wish Mac could separate criticism over his methods and poor decision making, from real persecution that preachers get when they step on toes for righteousness sake. Jerry Vines was one who did suffer persecution when he made his "Mohamed was a demon-possessed pedophile" remark. Boy was he persecuted for that - and yet he handled it with dignity and grace - NEVER complained about it. Never made his own persecution something to preach about. He just responded to his critics one Sunday in the pulpit before he preached immediately after the controversy (as he said, he remained silent until he got back to his church, because he said he believed whatever he had to say on the matter he had to say it FIRST to his own church since he is FIRST a pastor), and then moved on. Mac as far as I can tell, and I could be wrong, he is not being persecuted because he is a great father, husband, preacher, lives a clean life, preaches against sin, etc. Its because, in my opinion, his abuses of his leadership has caused people to doubt his motives, question his decision making ability, and now wonder if he is God's man for our church. His ability to lead has been damaged because of his own actions and attitudes. He has to come to grips with this. Also, Mac will be persecuted for anything he tries to do that is perceived to be part of the "purpose driven" movement. That's just the way it is, and he needs to get over it and stop talking about it. But this purpose driven criticism is separate from what he is facing at FBC Jax and he mustn't confuse the two.

3. When Mac mentioned "election", he said the following: "We've come to this whole issue of election because it gives us an excuse not to lead people to Jesus Christ. I think it gives us the opportunity to explain away why we're not baptizing people any more in our churches. 'Well, they're just not elect'. Well I want to tell you something: from the Friday of Palm Sunday through Easter Sunday morning we saw 118 people get saved. I just hope he keeps electing them in Jacksonville." I never did hear that 118 professions of faith were made that weekend, is that really true? I know we had quite a few baptisms Easter Sunday, but were there really 118 "professions of faith" during this weekend? I just want to be accurate: were there 118 people who expressed professions of faith, or was there a total of 118 decisions, some of which were baptism, some professions of faith?

But I would like to know why Mac thinks Jacksonville is a "hotbed of legalism". Does anyone think this is true? I would assume he is not talking about FBC Jacksonville, but our area in general. When I look at our city, I see a city chock-full of strong churches, many that take strong stands for the gospel, many of which have very innovative techniques to reach a very diverse group of people in Jax. No question, this is a "conservative" city - many church members are in local politics and judiciary. What I and other see about Jacksonville as being very positive, I guess Mac sees it as "a hotbed of legalism". Strange indeed. Maybe he is getting to not like Jacksonville.