"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Friday, October 17, 2008

A Word To My Readers at FBC Jax

This week the revelation of the Team Brunson sponsorship plan has generated intense interest in this blog all over the country. The hits within Jacksonville have tripled, and the hits in total have nearly doubled in just a few days as people are becoming incensed over this abuse of our church's pastor conference ministry.

I am hoping that more of our members are becoming aware of this blog so that they can at least consider another paradigm of what is happening at our church. I know the vast majority of members view Mac as the jolly ole preacher up there, the good ole boy redneck who just loves to preach, and tells a good joke and they sit in Sunday services and giggle at his antics. Well, there is another side to the story of Mac and Team Brunson that this blog is trying to get members to consider.

So keep spreading the word, FBC Jax readers of this blog...don't be afraid to email this blog to any of your Sunday School associates. If you have an email distribution list for your department, be bold and email this blog address to them. If you don't feel comfortable doing this for fear of attack on you and your family (which will likely happen if you were to do it), then go to www.gmail.com, get yourself a new email address with an email name that is not descriptive of you, and email it anonymously. It is very important that people at least consider what is being exposed on this blog. If you do suffer for daring to bring up this blog to others, you have an open venue at this blog to expose those who are trying to harm you or your family.

And if you believe that Mac is harming our church, you now have only one vote, and that is your wallet. The congregation has had taken away from it the ability to call a special business meeting in the recent bylaw changes, so there is no more congregational rule. So to withhold your giving is exactly playing by the rules of the new Brunson regime at our church. To them its all about the dollar, and he who gives the most money gets the most exposure - give Mac $300,000 tract of land and you get a 3-minute video shown smack dab in the middle of his sermon right after preaching about Jesus' suffering in the garden (is that not sick?). But on the other extreme we now know that if you can't come up with $750 for an exhibitor's booth, you can't tell pastors about your Christian ministry or business. And it doesn't get any more obscene than this: if you can't pay the registration fee for the pastor's conference, you can't even show up for the sessions - which are held at the facilties that your sacrifices paid for over the past three decades. Don't have the money, you're shut out. It sure is a "new day" at FBC Jax. That's why our logo be "Linking Wallets to Team Brunson" instead of "Linking Lives to Jesus Christ"


or

I'd like to think that our lay leaders can help us out of this mess, but they are entrenched with Brunson. The man who is the head of the finance committee (if that committee still exists) has been touring Italy with the pastor. Other lay leaders and board members who have financial interests in Israel got Mac to allow them to use the church to raise money last fall for an Israeli hospital that performs abortions, so don't look to the board members to help in this. The paid staff? They have either drunken the Kool Aid and can't look objectively at what is happening, or they do see it but for fear of their jobs they can't do anything.

So let's play by THEIR rules...he who has the dollars has the power and the privilege. It used to be the joke around town that the more you gave to FBC Jax the closer to the front you could sit. Now in a sick way that joke has come true - the more you can give, the more marketing exposure you can gain. Don't have the money, no exposure or even access to the events.

So withhold your dollars from Mac, and watch his power and influence wane faster than you can say "Come help us Calvin Carr".

Watchdog

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

I do have a serious question. Why does the church have to pay Trey as Special Projects Coordinator AND The A-Group. Can't Trey perform this job using his own abilities, if so, get rid of the A-Group. If Trey can't handle it on his on, get rid of him and hire someone who can and eliminate the use of the A-Group. Doing so, tremendous savings could be fed back into the coffers and lessen some of our budget woes.

Anonymous said...

Your dire plea to get FBCJax behind your anti-Brunson agenda will not work and is not working. This thread is a waste of time, along with the others on this blog.
Your statistics may be up on the blog but that doesn't mean people are on board with you. I think some people get entertainment value out of reading your nonsense.
Pastor Mac is here to stay and the majority of the church is pleased with Pastor Mac. This blog hasn't changed anything since it's inception and it won't change anything.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Nothing "dire".

And I concede you might be right. In fact I agree - if the giving goes up, and Mac can beat the money out of the people for his agenda, then more power to him.

But the one good thing about it being about the money now - that is an easily measurable yard stick.

So let's watch the money!

Anonymous said...

Suggestion for Special Projects:

A Christmas Project Without so much hoopla.

Hold a special service in which participants will move through a series of stations, hearing the Christmas story. Gifts of toys, coats, socks, underwear, bed linens and such can be gathered for the Salvation Army or the shelter that is virtually at the doors of FBC Jax. Great example for children in the church also.

This suggestion is a freebie! I am sure many members have similar ideas that would work and you would not have to pay a consulting group an exorbitant amount of money. O, forgive, you don't listen to the congregation or members. My Bad. The members have more creativity and experience collectively than the A-Group or any other you might hire.

Anonymous said...

WD -

You don't have to post this as it is off topic, but I thought I'd pass along a link to an article where the Hamas leader called our current economic crisis "divine punishment". First thing I thought of was this sounded a lot like Mac! How sad that the pastor would have the same sentiments as terrorists who wish to destroy our nation.

Anyway, use it if you like, or not. Just wanted to pass it along.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1222017562576&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon - thanks for that link...that is priceless. If you don't mind I'll save it for future use in just a few days....

Thy Peace said...

Even if Watchdog did not have a blog, the fbcjax will self destruct very soon. The seeds of corruption are innate or latent in the fbcjax administration. The fruit is what you see happening. Lot of the members can not see it, because they are like the frog in water being heated slowly --- being cooked to death.

From the World's perpective, bringing Marketing skills and Marketing Management to fbcjax is good, but from the Word's standpoint is EVIL.

I understand, for everything in this World (except the price paid by Our Lord Jesus Christ) costs something. But the direction the fbcjax administration is going, is not correct.
----------------------------
Here is a sarcastic idea to raise money for fbcjax:

This will not soak the "rich" and "middle-class".

Let's assume, there are 8000 members attending each service.

3 services per week
52 weeks in a year

Charge each person attending the service $15- (sorry no exceptions, for old people, babies, children or dependents)

8000 * 3 * 52 * $15 = $18,720,000-

Wow!

I sincerely pray that fbcjax does NOT implement this idea.

Anonymous said...

WD: You have made a great difference. Many of us now feel that we have a voice, we are not alone in feeling that this church and it's leaders are out of control. If people can't see for themselves how the abuses are affecting the members, the attendance, and the almighty MONEY, then I don't know what more can be said to shine the light on the problems rampant in this church. I just wish everyone knew the real story down there. So many hide from the truth, for their various pitiful reasons. Others live in such a vacuum that nothing gets through. But, thanks to you Watchdog, at least some, more and more each day ARE getting the picture. I agree vote with the wallet. Nothing gets the attention like the bottom line. As for marketing teams and schemes, we exist to make them rich!!Keep going WD, many support you. Thanks.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thanks Anon - keep spreading the word. As much as the leaders at FBC Jax want to paint the watchdog as an angry, bitter person spreading lies it just ain't so. I know because I'm me. Notice how even this past Sunday, the opening moments of his new sermon series Mac preaches about "anonymous people coming out of the crowd to shove you out of the race God has called you to run." That is code for: "I don't like this anonymous blogger trying to tell me how to run this ministry". I mean really, do any of us have "anonymous" people "shoving" us out of our Christian walk? Of course not! He was preaching about himself! He just can't help it!

And on this, I have it on good authority that the pastor is spreading the rumor that they know who the blogger is and that he is a bitter, angry, homosexual who doesn't like his preaching on sin. So I'm a homo. Better not tell my wife. Funny!

But this blog is classic grass roots effort. People at the bottom of the organization getting fed up with the abuse of power at the top. And if this blog can serve to get the word to more and more people that they DO need to be concerned of how their church is being used for financial gain, than I'm glad to help.

Anonymous said...

WD: Brunson thinks Watchdog is a homo, does he. If this is what is thought about WD then my question is: How would he know?? We know your not!!! Get'em Dog!!!

Anonymous said...

How would you feel and how would you respond if you went to the polling station in November and was told, "you cannot vote." We had an undisclosed meeting and decided your were not relevant to decisions on how we plan to run the country. If you don't like it, go to a country that allows common folk to participate in elections and decide what is important to them, or not.

You would be outraged, incensed, indignant yet polarized to make it right again.

That is unbelievable you say and would never happen.

Well it happened when the trustees and pastor of the church met and changed your bylaws and took away your rights as members to be included in decision making and how the church would operate internally. You say, that's o.k., I can live with that as I don't want to be bothered anyway, they seem to know what they are doing, are good men of God, run businesses and corporations so I'm sure they know best.

Foresight is wiser than hindsight.

These actions should have forewarned you that other member rights and participation in the church would be at risk from this group, down the road and on-going. Especially under the pastor's elitist regime.

You attack and demonize some who try to explain that the latter example could be a precursor of the first. You decide.

Thy Peace said...

I stand corrected. SBC Watchdog (who has since retired) has since clarified their position on at least FBC JAX Watchdog.

Here are their comments and the link to their comments:

"
"I am certain, the SBC Watchdog will NOT like FBC JAX Watchdog."

I am certain you are wrong. I happen to believe that Dr. Brunson’s reported activities, if true, exhibit much of what is wrong in the SBC empire today...indeed the evangelical empire. I tend to sit on the other side of the isle from Wade on Conventional politics and usually agree with what is said on SBCToday. But when Tim Rogers says this: "If someone wants to donate land for me to build a house, it is no one else’s business." then I think we can see that our understanding of what a pastor is has become so skewed that the cause may seem hopeless. Yes Mr. Rogers, I do believe it is the business of the people at JAX to, at the very least question the monetary gain of their pastor. And when emails and letters and phone calls consume all the time of Mr. Mac, then he might consider closing the computer and shutting off the phone and being a shepherd to his sheep.

~The SBC Watchdog"


The Smile of Providence Is All Around: Just Look: Anonymous said - The SBC Watchdog

Anonymous said...

Hi, I am still interested(and others may too):WD,

I have been at FBCJ for a short time. As you have mentioned earlier, there is responsibility to share.

Where can I go to find a listing of the Elders and Trustees? How do they differ? Do we have specific lay committees?
I'd like to see some names I might approach.

Thy Peace said...

Here is a comment of Dr. Sheri Klouda on Pastor Wade's blog:

A Critique of Dorothy Patterson's Article in the Fall 2008 Southwestern News: "Is There a Biblical Paradigm for Womanhood?": sbhebrw professor said...

"Now, if I accept Dorothy's additional constraints on the roles of women in today's society, where would my family be?

It is only by the providence of a wise and omniscient God that I received a fine biblical education which enables me to support my family financially in light of my husband's disability. Would she have me stay at home and care for my husband, and allow my family to subsist below the poverty level? How does she harmonize her eisegesis (reading interpretation into Scripture) of the text with all those wisdom texts that instruct God's people to work diligently to support their families. Would she rather an able bodied, talented, God-gifted believer sit at home and collect public assistance because she is a woman?

Now Dorothy, through her understanding of women's roles, criticizes and convicts a substantial number of men in academic leadership positions. For it was at the invitation of and the approval by provosts, deans, trustees, and presidents that I taught my first college and seminary classes. As a master's student, I was first invited by the Provost of my institution to teach Hebrew to both men and women. Subsequently, I was encouraged by other male SB professors to pursue a doctorate and teaching as a career, then invited outside my institution to teach biblical Hebrew in another state. As I worked towards my doctorate, my department head assigned me classes to teach in seminary, some biblical and some language based exegesis, with the approval of those over him, all male. And, since God is sovereign and in control of all things, he knew our family's needs, and placed me in the position of teaching his Word in the original language. Now, shall Dorothy say that God was "wrong" in permitting me to sin in this way, and that, all of those men who facilitated my employment along the way were wrong as well? How can she challenge the authority of the very people she serves under, and who are more fit to lead than her, by virtue of their gender? Would she claim that these biblical scholars, who are certainly experts in the field of exegesis, were misguided and misled by the Holy Spirit?
It seems presumptuous, at the very least, and not the least bit humble.

Dorothy makes no allowances for the stuff of real life, and the circumstances that families face, and she would much rather see children go hungry and without the basics of life than admit that often the circumstances of the family require that a woman take on additional responsibilities. I guarantee you, I do not drive a fancy car, or live in a splendorous home, and we eat chicken two or three nights a week just like other folks.

I would like to know if I followed her paradigm exactly, if she and PP would be willing to support my family financially?"

Anonymous said...

New Readers hear this,

I have been reading this blog for some time now and have a comment.

Watchdog, is SPOT ON in his evaluation of Mac Brunson. He was a little slow in realizing that Mac is SEEKER FRIENDLY and still has reservations about how deep we are in the PURPOSE DRIVEN MOVEMENT; but he has done his homework and can now see the real MAC BRUNSON for what he is.

Many of the Mac supporters, I think, are now beginning to acknowledge that maybe Mac is out of control.

There is just too much evidence available not to see how worldly Mac is.

Mac will not change. His eyes are on all of those BIG CHURCH, RICH, SATELITE/CATHOLIC type preachers. He wants to be RICH.

Watchdog has provide many of our FBC Jax church members with a place to voice our disapproval of Mac Brunson and his system. Those voices are becoming many voices. How long we will tolerate MAC only the Lord knows. How long the Lord will tolerate Mac only time will tell.

We thank Watchdog for his christian stand and strong convictions.

New readers PRAY FOR US our pastor WON'T.

Anonymous said...

Blogger 2:26: Well said. What's so unbelievable is; these people take away your rights to ask for accountability but "demand" you to give them money. Then when you hesitate, they say it belongs to them because God said so. But they will not be accountable for it. To have a select group of elitest in charge because you are to stupid to understand and have
no right to ask questions. Or question their use of the said money. Well, you weren't to stupid to work and make the money they so desire in the first place!! But to just hand it over because some angry man demands it IS STUPID.
Isn't this what is called a dictatorship in country's without freedom? The "what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine" mentality doesn't work for me. How about you. I would feel truly dumb handing out money knowing I was only thought of as a "unit". Feeling that the elitest looked down upon me as too stupid to deal with my requests.But I keep thinking of this truth: Matt.l9 vs.30,"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

Anonymous said...

I have been watching the antics of Nancy Polosi and Harry "Greed" in Washington. I think they may have some "cousins" in Jax.

Anonymous said...

I would like to tell those who complain the mention of both Lindsay pastors and wives. You and the pastor say we are worshiping the past.

I have news for you, we are not worshiping the past just acknowledging and honoring men and women who dedicated their lives to loving Jesus, loving and actually caring for others, were not abusive, nor angry (except again sin & idolatry), and never heard them complain they were not paid enough, at least to the members.

I believe some of you are actually envious of the adoration and esteem to which they are held, so you take a defensive attitude.

Why don't you try to measure up, or shut up. At this point, some believe you never will. We are tired of hearing about past worshipers.

Got that.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog:

Here's a new twist in the PD driven churches. Once dissidents are found out, they are publicly reprimanded and, at times using security, escorted out of the church. Should they join another church, a pastor, a trustee, staff member or someone in the inner circle of the old church contacts the new church and recommends the dissidents are not worthy of being placed in a position of authority or leadership.

These so called Lilly-livered persons of the pulpit have audacity and temerity and self-posed omnipient value; yet they are spineless to call churches to let them know about sexual predators, pedophiles and other hell-sent individuals are attending, participating and pastoring churches. Apostasy at the highest level. Darryl Gilyard is a classic example. We all know the principles in his cover up and abhorrent behavior as a pastor.

This information is available from many sources, so you can verify it for yourself.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:29

Addressing the Watchdog, You said, "I think some people get entertainment value out of reading your blog."

I am quite entertained by your naivete and immaturity to think for yourself and your total lack of judgement to discern right from wrong.

Thanks for the revealing post. Keep on keeping us entertained.

Anonymous said...

WD: Can you provide us with any insight as to when we will learn about the budget and where we are? We want to know.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:29.. I think you misread the previous blog. WD didn't say that someone else who is drinking the Kool Aid did.

Anonymous said...

Thank God that in the church I attend, copies of the by-laws, budgets (including pastor and staff salaries), expenditures by line item are shown. We are Southern Baptist whose pastor, thus far, does not accept nor practice the PD theories of persuasions.

You probably think we are a small hick town under old rule; but to your surprise you might like to know the town has a population of 400,000 plus.

Some at the church, which includes former missionaries and those to be presented soon, have been watching the events not just there at Jax but within the SBC and Foreign Mission Board. Some cannot believe the transition of FBC to PD, as many have previously attended the conferences there. Skepticism replaces enthusiasm regarding the 2009 conference.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Rick Warren may be the anti-Christ. As he says, "his agenda stretches far beyond America and far beyond traditional ministry. Looks like Brunson listens to him. The international director of Warren's PD church, Mark Carver, is a former investment banker.

Where's the pick-up truck at the Deerwood residence, or does he drive it to work?

Anonymous said...

Healthy Pastors, Healthy Churches.

Any reference to Brunson, if so, quite a joke. Including the trustees.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 5:59 pm - in last week's church bulletin they placed a little blurb summarizing Chest of Joash giving and the "Million Dollar Fleece" giving. In this week no such blurb is there, so we won't be told what the final numbers are. Unless Mac decided to beat us up over it in his sermon. Sheep, get ready, don your sheep armor for this Sunday!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:24.You are so right. Jerry Falwell, Paige Patterson, and Jerry Vines all knew about Gilyard when he was still in Tx. They flew out to cousel him about his womanizing. Obvisously, it did not stop him. It appeared that he was under the protective wing of the SBC. Hide it at all cost, as the reputation of the SBC and the money might be affected.

Conversely, some get upset when Godly preachers like the Lindsays are mentioned. To have these two men and their equally Godly wives was something so unique we will never see it again. They were humble, spiritual, totally committed to the Lord and this church. Both Lindsays were asked in the past, to run for the Presidency of the SBC. Both turned it down for the same reason. They both said they had no time for it. As they were totally committed to their local church, and did not want to be away from it. Neither liked church politics. The only time they were away from FBC was when they had SHORT vacation, usually only a week or l/2 of a week at a time. Two weeks yearly. Or when they were sick in the hospital. Several years they did not take any time off. I know as I was a member. I also remember Dr. Lindsay Jr., turning down a pay raise that the deacons wanted to give him, to bring him more in line with other SBC pastors. He said, he didn't need it as God had always blessed him and taken care of him. The deacons gave him a raise finally, anyway. He gave it back to the church in his tithe and offering. I challenge all to see the humility of these men before they critize those of us who knew them and loved them and their wives. What an example for other pastors, especially mega pastors to follow. Just as trivia; Dr.Lindsay Jr., had a formula that he quoted from time to time. "You plus God equals anything."

Thy Peace said...

Anon 8:21pm:

I wish I came to Christ when Lindsay's were preaching at fbcjax. That would be something. What I read in the bible and what I see currently at fbcjax do not jive with each other. I see godly men and women in the Choir and Orchestra. My heart lifts up every time, I watch fbcjax music ministry.

I just wish the preachers lived simple lives like the Lindsay's and let God take care of their lives.

All this is so much man made confusion. Such a loss to Jacksonville.

Anonymous said...

1. If establishing the present FBCJax bylaws violated the previous FBCJax bylaws, the previous FBCJax bylaws stand.

2. Folks here criticizing Purpose Driven negatively obviously do not understand "Purpose Driven" as Rick Warren intends and teaches it (an example--even a poor one--your pastor and his ministry are not). FBCJax always has been a small and ineffective congregation relative to PD/Saddleback Valley Community Church in that sense! Check out the stats for yourself, and then read Rick's book Purpose Driven Church to find out how to fix your congregation's problems. Seriously.

Anonymous said...

What I find amusing is someone wanting to educate us Bible believers by telling us to read another book!!! I follow what Paul said, stay with the scriptures. Man has always tried to help God out when all man has to do is read His Word. I don't need another book . I don't need another language to tell me what I already know in the English. No wonder the world is dying and going to HELL!! All that man's wisdom does is mislead and confuse.

Its sort of like Frank singing I did it my way.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:15:

You obviously need something.

If what you typed is true, then the expectation of readers here will be that you'll never pick up another commentary or lexicon or Sunday School quarterly to help you understand what the Bible means by what it says. The idea of that, however, is "amusing."

The suggestion stands; read Rick's book and THEN criticize Purpose Driven if you think you can. Again, Brunson is not an example--even a poor one--of PD, and FBCJax hasn't become the latest example of a PD congregation, either; if it truly had, this blog wouldn't exist--that the blog exists indicates that FBCJax and its senior pastor aren't focused now on their biblical purpose.

Anonymous said...

6:38...To what Sunday School quarterly are you referring? Lexicon, there are many. They all have different meanings depending on which Greek text you use, I believe about 400!!! As far as commentaries, Matthew Henry and Spurgeon are acceptable. I am probably 30-40 years older than you are so don't get too excited because I stick with the English version of the Bible. It has been prooven accurate to God's Word all the way back to the 2nd or 4th century. Even the Isaiah scroll is word for word true to the Hebrew text of the TR. It had to be x-rayed in order to verify this fact since unrolling the scroll would have destroyed it. Its in the museum in Jerusalem. You may have caught it recently on the History channel by some eminent archeologists. Haley's Bible commentary has some enlightening aspects of Biblical facts which scoffers said were untrue but each one later prooved that the English version of the Bible was correct. Sir Henry Flanders located 400,000 texts in the Hanging Garden Library in old Persia; the location of the chariot given by Nebuchadnezzar to his son Belshazzar which Bible scoffers said was false...the uncovering of that chariot had the inscription by the king with his name and the name of his son upon it. Numerous of these Bible facts have been realized so it only proves my position. The Bible is 100% TRUSTWORTHY.

God made no mistakes when He had those 40 writers put down into what we classify as SCRIPTURE. You can't improve on God. Some pretend to, however, most not all, sometimes take you into fairy land. I'll stick with what God has taught me in His Word, thank you. One thing I will admit to is looking up a word in a good dictionary from time to time. But, the Bible is the best at answering what a particular word or phrase means. Additionally, Strongs Concordance is good for the new Christian. After you have read through the Bible 20-25 times and taught it for 45 years then come back and tell me what book has brought you closer to the truths in the BIBLE. A good rule is: The bible is the best commentary on the bible.

Anonymous said...

1. Over 20 years' vocational ministry experience myself, thank you very much.

2. Your references to the sufficiency of the Holy Bible: Duh. Does any reader here NOT already know what you've typed and NOT also believe it?

3. You're very familiar with commentaries--of all kinds. That's my point, Mr. I.M. Experienced. Rick Warren's "Purpose Drive Church" book serves as one commentary, on church administration particulary. Period. Does it take the place of the Bible?--Only as much as Haley's Bible Commentary and the History Channel do (i.e., not at all). If you were as brilliant as you'd like for readers here to think, you'd already have discovered that instead of condemning PD without reading it.

Until you give better evidence of having discovered how to work with God and His Holy Word in such a way as to grow a local church biblically from 4 individuals to over 20,000 (and baptizing about half of them), I'll stay with spiritual guidance offered by someone else who has--like Rick Warren!

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your comments. I never claimed to be brillant as you suggest. I just believe and trust my Bible. Concerning PD it has run off a lot of good Christians. PD is just another fad that will be replaced by another fad.Thank you.

Anonymous said...

If something extremely successful for almost 30 years--in this case, resulting in thousands of lost people trusting personally in Jesus Christ as Savior and now serving Him as Lord in many new or existing churches both in California and elsewhere--can accurately be termed a "fad," then--yes--I guess you're right: PD is a fad. Would that your church and mine would take up THAT FAD.

Again, read the book--even call the author; but, until you do, don't criticize PD negatively. PD has run off NO ONE; people who think they understand it, but don't, either have run off or done the running off.

If you're going to read any other book besides the Bible, read PD. Besides, their this posting nor this blogsite is about PD.

Anonymous said...

1:48 You say this blog isn't about PD. Then quit trying to get us to read the book. No man has a lock on truth. Gal 2:11-14. RW advocates unity with Muslim leaders while attempting to tell other pastors to disassociate with those that are against unity. You know, the divisive ones like WD. Stamp out the messenger.

These are those that take issue with the pastor over his having complete unbridled authority over them in everything that happens in the church...bylaws, music, employee hires and fires, and financially. Remember Jim Jones, Jim Bakker, David Koresh, Korah, etc,etc, etc. Try the spirits is my recommendation.

Even Bill Hybells says that they had tried PD and it didn't work. Read another book: "Whose Driving the Purpose Driven Movement" by James Lundquist.

Sell your ECUMENICALISM somewhere else. This is the last time I will say anything on this useless subject of reading or doing anything PD. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:18

You must think that Rick Warren is a complete moron, and that he pastors a church full of imbeciles. Warren is at least as smart as you, and the congregation he leads is at least as wise as yours! A decade ago, when responding to unjust criticism on Larry King's show, Warren said he'd be willing for the lives and service of 1000 members of SBVCC to be compared to the lives and service of 1000 members of any other church--because he knew how those people were growing in Christ. Now, THAT'S a pastor--and chances are great you never had one like him (the subject of this blog apparently is not).

You can read any book you want. You won't know all you'd like to know about biblical church growth, however, until you read PD (not the last word on the subject, I agree, but UNJUSTLY criticized by several at this blogsite).

While you're at it, re-read the Willow Creek articles too; not quite correct on that either.

Anonymous said...

I have read your feelings about our pastor from time to time and believe you cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit. As I recall, the Holy Spirit has been left as our Helper, guide & conscience.It is best to leave the work you are trying to do to the Holy Spirit. Obviously, no matter how many readers you get the Spirit of God can work miracles not you.
Oh, I am sure you will not heed this writers voice but you must remember that YOU will have to give an account of every idle word you utter.(Matt.12:36)
Reflect on this morning's service for just a second. Do you for one second believe those folks who got up in front of the whole church & revealed the hurts in their lives give a hoot of the anger & insensitivity you spew on a regular basis? I think not! As Dr. Brunson said this morning,If you are a Christian you will be attacked. It is a shame that when he said that I thought of YOU first. Wow, you will have to answer to God for the things you put in people's mind EVEN if you think you are doing the church a great service in trying to topple a man's ministry.
What I have yet to figure out is, if you are so dissatisfied with our pastor why don't you leave the church?
I will leave you with the words of Jesus Himself" But, whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."
How many children of God are YOU causing to stumble (in their giving for one example)?
You still want to play the Holy Spirit?

anon