Watchdog readers: just a reminder that the month of July is the month for the people of FBC Jax to show the lay leaders and pastor that we are sorely disappointed in their poor leadership at our church, and that we demand our pastor be held accountable for his abuses at our church and that things begin to change. Sunday July 6th is the first Sunday of July, and we implore all people at FBC Jax who believe Mac Brunson and our lay leaders have taken our church seriously off course, to stop giving their tithes and offerings to the church. Here is the last paragraph of our decree posted last week.:
Now therefore until the pastor and/or the church lay leadership begin to address these concerns, including public explanation of the bylaw changes enacted in December 2007, and until the pastor begins to display the humble servant-leadership as portrayed in the New Testament, our tithes and offerings will be given to other worthwhile Christian purposes that will meet people's needs and further the gospel. We do not feel compelled by scripture to continue to financially support the ministry of FBC Jacksonville as continued giving to the church is to condone the past practices and encourage even more abuses in the future.
Be it decreed this, the 25th day of June, in the year 2008.
I hope that enough Christians will join us to make a difference.
Be it decreed, you have gone too far. You have failed to follow the route of Scripture and you refuse the route of integrity and leave. You cannot and will not effect change and your continued pursuits are only going to invite judgment on yourself. Invest your energies in leading someone to Christ.
Was that Mac himself with the opening comment?????
I doubt it was mac but at least they are completely right in their synopsis.
As much as I enjoy reading the blog and interaction with other believers, I think this step is way off base and unbiblical. I hope you will rethink your position.
In our church (we also have elders) if you had taken this public step to undermine the church we would take steps to remove you as a member of our fellowship. Somewhere we all have to be careful about what we do with God's church.
Amen to what rm said!
Yes, absolutely don't give one thought about how God's $ is squandered. WD how dare you worry about that!!!
So, where was the PD sermon tonight? It was quite uncomfortable to hear tonight, but true that God may have us in places of discomfort and pain to perform his task in and through us. Not exactly the things that Warren/Hybels would tell you.
anon 6:56 - No one has said don't give a thought to how God's money is spent. They said do it in a BIBLICAL way.
We choose the places of discomfort and pain not God. God desires that we enjoy life bountifully. I cannot believe someone would think that God would select pain or discomfort, its not bibilical. If one gets out of God's will they may wind up in the woodshed, but again thats their decision not God's. Just take the prodigal son as an example..he made the choice and couldn't get home fast enough.
Joseph did not deserve pain and discomfort...his brothers put him in that position. A lot of evil and wicked people cause pain for other people.
Jesus is the only one who chose pain and discomfort and death for our salvation...we all try to avoid anything uncomfortable.
You could not be more wrong concerning pain and discomfort. God's children are those He has chosen according to His purposes and along with that he determines our steps and often leads us through valleys that we might learn faith, dependence on Him and bring glory to Him ultimately. You view of pain is humanistic and smacks against the sovereignty of God and His purposes.Joseph was chosen according to God's plan and God determined Joseph's destiny and the path he would trod.
Mac's sermon tonight I thought was great. Great bible sermon, very practical and helpful to God's people.
Where was the PURPOSE DRIVEN tonight? Amen!
I do not post here against PD for the short run. I post here that Dr. Brunson will turn this church around. Two good messages do not a marathon make. I would love to speak with you brothers after we have seen the preacher preach hundreds of sermons about Jesus.
Mac has been here for two years and you have seen two years of FELT NEEDS MAN CENTERED PREACHING. SERMONS FILLED WITH AGENDA LACED MESSAGES. He has gradually built this PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH. You know what one looks like! Look around! FBCJ has all the signs of a PURPOSE DRIVEN church.
So we get a few outstanding messages. Amen! If the pastor has turned this church around, praise God!
The PURPOSE DRIVEN movement is leading us all into Apostacy. First you get compromise, then error, then Apostacy.
We all know that in the END TIMES APOSTACY WILL ABOUND.
What we are hoping for here is that Dr. Brunson will be one of the TRUE LEADERS who will show the country how terribly destructive this man centered movement is.
So, for tonight, to God be the Glory if this was JESUS CENTERED.
YOU STEPPED UP AND WERE COUNTED BROTHER. Your stand on the inerrancy of the Word of God speaks volumes for you.
Herein is my Father glorified that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Annon. of 9.37 concerning God causing us pain and suffering:
You missed the main point!!! Your concepcion of God as a punisher does not work for me. You are putting yourself back under the law, or at the very least under Catholic doctrine( one must suffer to please God), added with a touch of Calvinism (you say: we are CHOSEN according to His purposes and that often leads us into suffering and valleys so we can learn faith).
Man leads himself through "free will" into pain and suffering through DISOBEDIENCE, God does not lead man into pain and suffering, man does it to himself because he disobeys God. Witness the Garden of Eden, man was cursed because of SIN. Sin entered into man because he disobeyed God!!
You say it is Gods sovereign will to inflict pain and suffering in order for us to learn faith. I would say we learn faith through the Word. Study to show thyself approved. If man's steps were ordered by God, He certainly would NOT lead us into sin!!!!
Another point: Why did Jesus heal the sick, raise Lazarus, and weep when he heard Lazarus was dead. Psalms: 116 vs. 15: "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints."
`God does NOT lead man into pain and suffering, it was HE that died on the Cross for our sins, He requires obedience and faith from us His creation, we can do nothing else.
James Chp.1 vs l3-l8: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: vs.14: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his OWN lust, and when enticed. vs.15: Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth SIN; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. vs. l6: Do not err, my beloved brethren. vs.17: Every GOOD GIFT and every PERFECT GIFT is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. vs. 18: Of his own will begat He us with the WORD of truth, that we should be a kind of
firstfruits of his creatures."
EPH:1:vs 13: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the WORD of truth, the GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise."
We suffer because of sin and disobedience. Jesus paid the price for sin, suffering and pain why would he lead us back into it. I think you are not seperating Body, Soul and Spirit in your thinking.
Good morning brothers and sisters. Glad to hear that God blessed your church yesterday. Isn't it amazing how much better the pastor preaches when we pray for him...
God led His own Son into pain and suffering, for you and me.
Joseph, in the OT specifically states what men meant for evil, God meant for good. I do believe he was speaking of His pain and suffering. Joseph did not blame his brothers but rejoiced that God would do such a thing in and through him.
Let us not forget that suffering is part of the believers life. Taking up our cross daily means we need to be willing to carry His mandate out regardless of the cost (that includes pain and suffering).
Understanding God's sovereignty means we accept the fact that nothing happens that He does not allow or cause to happen.
Utopian Christianity is a false belief.
JON: I am long time FBCJ member(long time!!!!!) I was taught the Bible under BOTH Lindsays there is no way I am Utopian anything (never heard of it). You are not my preacher and you cannot enlighten me on anything!! You did make my point about pain and suffering however, as for Utopia, we won't get that until HEAVEN!!!
God does NOT cause pain and suffering!!! Sin and disobedience does!!!! When I hear the "seminary" version I usually am very skeptical. I will stick to my Bible, thanks.
My use of the term "cause" should be considered as "permit/allow".
I like the term cause because God can stop any pain and suffering if He so chooses. Often He chooses to let the pain and suffering be experienced for whatever reason His holy mind desires.
I don't want to be your pastor or preacher but having a mind which refuses to allow others to enlighten you in truth is dangerous and unwise.
My personal experience is one that has stories of where God intervened in my life and caused (allowed / permitted) pain and suffering. He did this to bring me to a point of repentance and obedience.
His chastening (as taught in scripture) can be painful. I accept and rejoice that God is in the healing business but more importantly God is in the holy business and if He needs to have me experience pain and suffering to get my attention, then praise His name for loving me enough.
Pain is needed in all of our lives, it is needed to survive.
A good scripture reference which supports suffering is Acts 9. Jesus told Ananias to go to Saul (Paul) and tell him that he would suffer many things for His (Christ's) name sake.
You can understand that Jesus was saying serving me will bring suffering. Go serve me.
I don't ask that you agree but at least consider the possibilities that God causes many things we don't understand why. Due to God choosing to harden Pharaohs heart (more than once), the people suffered. God caused this by hardening Pharaohs heart.
`Jon: The Garden of Eden was exactly that the Garden of Eden, perfect until sin and disobedience entered into the heart of man. Jesus died on the Cross to save and forgive sinful, disobedient man from eternal damnation, and separation from God.
Paul suffered (but did not complain)because of the sin and disobedience of other evil people, primarily because of Caesar and Rome. Paul dealt with their SIN. Pharoah DISOBEYED God. The RESULT was pain and suffering. A Damascus road experience served as the catalyst for Paul to deal with the disobedience of others.
You reiterated your own personal experience of God allowing pain and suffering in your life to bring you to a point of REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE (your words). The point is you were in pain and suffering because you were disobedient!!! And you REPENTED!! Pain and suffering are always brought on by sin and disobedience no matter who suffers or where the disobedience originates, pure and simple.
Your assesment of me is very interesting as you know nothing about me. As both Dr. Lindsays thought I was very teachable. Why would you say an ugly thing like that as I have not insulted you. I just do not need your instruction on this matter. Thank you.
Brother or Sister _____________,
There was no insult but a direct response to the words you chose to use.
You are not my preacher and you cannot enlighten me on anything!!
Then again you state:
I just do not need your instruction on this matter.
I don't know how to interpret this except as being unteachable.
On to the subject matter...
I am not disagreeing that sin does not bring pain and suffering but I don't think one can make it an all or nothing belief and remain honest with scripture. As I have stated, I believe God can cause pain and suffering. He did so in my life as he disciplined me. My sin, in the case I am speaking of, did not cause me pain and suffering, God brought it on to get my attention.
Kind of like my dad used to do with a belt when I misbehaved.
Therefore, this idea of pain and suffering is not an all or nothing case as you seem to want it to be but a either or.
It is possible we are just debating semantics.
No insult intended but if one is going to make a stand on what they believe but refuses to hear other beliefs or be questioned on their beliefs which might contradict theirs, it would probably be best if they kept their beliefs to themselves.
I'm not offended you disagree with me, these are secondary issues to what is really important.
Jon: As you have deemed me unteachable please do not trouble to "interpret" me further. I do not find you qualified to teach nor to correct me. I heard your "beliefs",I just don't "believe" them. I have learned from the best and I find that you perhaps, have much to learn. This attitude comes from relying too much on seminary teaching, even though you mention your own personal experience. Semantics aside, I have learned to rely on my Bible. Let us end this debate by agreeing both of us are "unteachable". Best wishes to you.
To any who think Dr. Vines did not think suffering and pain were never of God need to remember his sermon...
SUFFERING IS PART OF THE PLAN from 1 Peter 4:12-19.
In response to the issue on suffering. I never equated suffering with punishment: you did. You also added that I injected Calvinism. I suggest you read Ephesians 1 to learn of God's choosing us according to His purposes. You accuse me of Roman Catholocism and returning us to the law. Read the Scriptures. I'm afraid your concept of God is the one that is skewed.
Jon: I don't care!!! I believe in BIBLE AUTHORITY, not pastoral authority. You cannot blame God with pain and suffering. God gets blamed for many things He has no part in. Also, you can't put emotion to experience and say it is of God. I will not answer you further on this issue. PLEASE drop it !!!!
Scripture says our Lord suffered that he might learn obedience. Sin was not the reason for His suffering of course. "Until I was afflicted, I went astary." God's will is not that we live bountifully. God's will is that we bring Him glory in all things. In that, we discover abundant living.I believe it was Oswald Chambers who said; "Whom God uses greatly He hurts deeply."
Jon, I would like to ask how it is that you have so much time to blog. Aren't you a full-time minister. If so, are you neglecting your position and flock spending so much time writing blogs, sermons to the internet and a myriad of other postings. Researching your posts since Sept. 2006, you are all over the compass.
Just last evening, my pastor was commenting about the amount of time required to prepare 3 sermons a week, make hospital visits, direct a staff, etc. Our church certainly is not the size of FBC Jax (nor is yours) but he certainly does not have time to spend in front of a screen seeking and searching for avenues of opportunity to create a theatre for himself, as you so generously do.
Perhaps I should drive across the state line, visit your congregation, check things out, and then report what I personally believe is going on in your church. Good, Bad, or Ugly.
I sincerely hope the Love of Christ is the center of your messages, and you are doing everything in your power to lift up the name of Jesus, not Jon L. Estes!
I also find it interesting that most of your blogs have 0 comments, as well as the sermons you posted, even the cartoons (as you called them.) So, it is evident noone wants to hear what you have to say. Save it for your congregation. That is, if they want to hear.
You come across as having a vested interest in FBC Jax, or is it that you will soon be moving to another church and need support. You have had a number of career moves; who knows why.
Not to our dear friend who does not to discuss this subject but to all others who find it a bit interesting.
Well I wonder if Dr. Vines was using biblical authority or pastoral authority when he preached the sermon referenced. If not then he would be in league with how many on this blog define Dr. Brunson.
Interesting at best.
Etress, please come visit. We would love to have you worship Jesus with us.
Well it's 9:00 at night, just got in from church council meeting. Great time of prayer and planning.
I don't spend mega amounts of time in front of blogs but enough to keep me informed and challenged where I enjoy.
As for my blogs, look at the dates of the posts. All are old except the Java with Jon blog.
If no one replies, I don't care, I don't write what I do for reply.
One thing you can count on, I am not ashamed of who I am, where I serve or what I post.
Would you prefer I post anonymously? Would that help in your not making personal judgments?
But maybe you just don't like opposing views. I don't know. Just tell me you would rather I not come around. I'll concede and let you have your way and your blog group of like minded preacher criticizers. It must be sad to live in a world where all you want to do is criticize then have everyone around you pat you on the back, cheer you on.
I'll await your reply.
Brothers someone has crossed a line and needs to be spiritually careful. Your tithe is not a bargaining chip, but an act of obedience. If you cannot support your pastor I would recommend that you pray that you would find a church where you can support your pastor. The truth remains that most who have such a critical spirit will have the same issues at the next church also. Whether someone agrees or not, the pastor answers to God. If anyone has a problem with the direction of their church, stop blogging and start praying.
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