Before posting her response, a few comments are in order.
This blog is primarily about FBC Jax and the pastorship of Dr. Donald "Mac" Brunson. Has been, always will be. The issue of "Sheri Klouda vs. SWBTS and Paige Patterson" has made its way to my blog because of the decision of Mac Brunson himself. On Sunday July 13th, in the Sunday evening service at First Baptist Church Jacksonville, to the good people of FBC Jax Mac Brunson either maliciously lied, or careless perpetuated a lie told to him by Paige Patterson's attorney during a "trip to Greece", about Sheri Klouda's testimony in her case and her views of her case as it pertains to scripture in 1 Corinthians 6. I blogged about this here; and click here for audio of the clip where Mac perpetuates the lie.
Those of you who are familiar with Sheri Klouda's case through the baptist news agencies and the blogosphere will read in her own words below her story contradicting stories told about a supposed job offer made by Paige Patterson; even one anonymous blogger here who blamed her hardships suffered from this lawsuit on Dr. Klouda herself for not taking a similar job offered by Patterson. And she of course explains her real views of her case in light of 1 Corinthians 6 and other relevant scripture - which shows how Mac Brunson completely misrepresented her views.
Finally, I can say I was absolutely sickened to read her testimony of how she was wronged by Paige Patterson and the subsequent suffering her family has had to endure. And now to read her own words confirming the lies that have been told about her dismissal, and now to know that our own pastor, Donald McCall Brunson has decided to insert himself into this and use his influence and power, and the prestige associated with our church name, to further perpetuate lies about this good woman, I am OUTRAGED. Shame on you Mac Brunson. Its clear that Dr. Klouda harbors no animosity toward the people involved, but feels the need to set the records straight.
Here is her response:
To All of Those Who Have Responded:
I would first like to mention that the court documents for the Klouda/Patterson depositions are publicly available in Fort Worth, should anyone wish to look at them, which should support my claims.
I would like to put some rumors to rest, if I may.
First, I was never offered another permanent position with the same salary and benefits. The only position I was offered was temporary, and would only last until my pending dismissal in December of 2006. I begged Dr. Patterson to find a place for me at the seminary several times, and I would have taken anything I was offered, given my husband's rapidly declining health and the need to financially support my family. I was desperate. We just bought a home based on the premise that I was hired on tenure track and would be given the same opportunities as other professors to apply and achieve tenure. My daughter was already in high school, and all of my family, including my elderly grandparents, parents and my siblings all reside in the area. There is no document related to this new position, nor was anything ever produced to support this claim.
Second, Paige Patterson testified that several students came to him complaining that I was "teaching the Bible," soon after he decided he would eventually terminate me. However, he took no notes, has no records, no emails, and does not know the names of the students that accused me of this.
Third, I was hired for the teaching position by the board of trustees, who felt that I was qualified to undertake these responsibilities. It was only a year after Paige became president that he decided to begin the process of eliminating my role, stating that I was unqualified to teach only because of my gender. As far as I can see, you cannot have it both ways.
Fourth,the case was dismissed not because the facts were disputed, but on the basis of the separation of church and state. In other words, the deposition makes it quite clear what the grounds of my dismissal were, and they had nothing to do with my performance. In addition, the role of a faculty member in a seminary is considered to fall under a ministerial exception, consequently, the law views me as a "minister." Ironically, I was dismissed because as a woman, I was not "qualified to be a minister." Paige did not mind taking advantage of that judgment even though he states categorically that I am not qualified to be a "minister."
While it is true that the lawyer had me read I Corinthians 6, I responded that "it appears to suggest that one should avoid bringing suit against another believer," however, I clarified this by explaining that this declaration assumes the wronging party will do the right thing to the one accusing him, or that other believers will compel the wrongdoer to respond appropriately. In addition, the Old Testament, which is part of our Bible, institutes and discusses at length judges, courts, and suits as stipulations approved by God and put in place to protect the individual in a believing community from harm by another. The Bible constantly addresses powerful people taking advantage of those who are less powerful Not only did I go to Dr. Patterson and ask him to treat me fairly several times, since I did nothing to deserve losing my job, and in fact, was serving in that role by the approval of the board and those in authority, but other believers went to him on my behalf to try and obtain justice and grace. I was asked if I knew that there were church mediation places set up specifically for the purpose of resolving these matters between believers, and I acknowledged that if I had known that option was available, I would have tried that approach. While I do not know Pastor Brunson personally, and I have never met the man, even though I taught junior high Sunday School for five years, he or anyone else (a deacon, an administrator, somebody who would care?) from FBD never advised me or discussed what happened to me, or counseled me as to what to do. No one in my own church came forward once when my husband was ill, or expressed any concern about out situation at all apart from a few of the adults who taught junior high.
As a result of Dr. Patterson's unilateral decision, we lost all of the equity in our house and sold it for less than we paid for it since we couldn't afford the payments any longer. I lost all of my years towards tenure, some of my life insurance, retirement for two years, and took a reduction in pay equivalent to $15,000 a year. My husband lost his job of 12 years, and took a job that paid half of what he received in Dallas. His heart condition is inoperable (he had another heart attack in November), and he needs a defibrillator put in to restart his heart when he suffers heart attacks. We are still trying to pay off those medical bills so that he can get the procedure done before he has a major attack. He must either apply for early retirement (at the reduced amount) or try to apply for disability, which takes approximately 808 days in Indiana before approval. He will have no life insurance, and we will have even less income. We of course, have no money to buy a home since we lost all of our equity in the Dallas sale. We are already going month to month, and I am very concerned about how to proceed. Somehow by the grace of God and his provision we will make it. I hardly think this constitutes "whining," and I did not "refuse" any position at the seminary.
Finally, I just want to reaffirm, I am still Southern Baptist at heart, and I harbor no hard feelings towards anyone involved.
Blessings in Christ,
FBC Jax Members and other Watchdog readers: if you feel led to donate money to help the Klouda's, Pastor Wade Burleson has already set up a benevolence fund where 100% of all recepits will be given to the Klouda's, and your gift will be tax deductible. Send your gifts to:
Emmanuel Baptist Church
2505 West Garriott
Enid, Oklahoma 73703
Designate your gift "Sheri Klouda Fund". FBC Jax, let's not be defined by what Mac Brunson SAYS, but by what we, the people of FBC Jax, DO. Let's show real Christian love and help the Klouda's.
Having already researched the Klouda case and P.P. in general, I don't waste my valuable time listening to him. The typical tear-jearking story at the end of a sermon is just too contrived. I have to respect someone to learn from them. Just for fun, look up the square footage on his home or the price paid for an artists rendering of the "great one" in his office. Whens the next time your planning to travel out of the country to hunt wild exotic animals? This man is obviously taken with himself. WE ARE responsible for doing our homework on those whom we will try to learn from.
anon 2:54 - as tempting as it will be to focus on Paige Patterson, this blog is about Donny Brunson. His abuses are so many and so brazen, it seems he has no conscience. And those around him are so enamored with him and his celebrity they are blinded to not see it. Or if they do see it, they are too gullible, or too afraid, or gain too much themselves, to do anything about it.
I wonder if Dr. Brunson now wishes he had just answered a few concerns emailed to him by a faithful member anonymously a couple of years ago?
I can't help but wonder if any blogs would ever even have been started. Yet, he chose to go this route, and now he must deal with scrutiny of every word and deed he makes. Not just from a few sheep, but from the entire convention. The man just has a gift for saying and doing the wrong thing. Perhaps he's delusional, or it may just be arrogance and pride. But others are beginning to wake up to it. Can he be stopped before our church is ruined? Or is too late already?
Good information Watchdog. You are doing a great job and are much appreciated by us who have no voice due to Mac's refusal to respond to our anonymous emails.
Prayers and blessings to you.
While the whole thing with Sherry Klouda disgusts me, we need to remember that it really isn't relevant to FBC, Jax. He's going to tell more stories in the years to come so just get ready...
Let me remind you again--as long as you write anonymous emails you will NEVER get a response for the pastor, staff, or board of whatever you have running your church.
If you want answers, go see them in person.
Totally relevant to FBC Jax RM.
Mac Brunson has shown himself over and over again to be part of the SBC shenanigans...he is fully behind Paige Patterson...he is one of PP's boys. Patterson said Mac never got a honeymoon, Mac says PP's accuser herself agreed she violated scripture in seeking justice.
Totally relevant, part of the entire Brunson picture.
Is there truly an honorable man that believes that Mac would answer anyone who sought answers from him? First of all, how would one even get an appointment? Does anyone out there not realize that whoever tried would be the subject of a future sermon in which no doubt the person would be demonized for questioning a man of God.
Good work there watchdog. You've done a good thing on this blog for the people of FBC Jax. Let's tell it like it is. I hope the dear saints of FBCJ will open their eyes. Its beyond time for Mac to get things straight with his congregation - he's gone too far now.
Maybe we do things differently in Texas but if I was a member of your church I would call the secretary first and request a meeting. If that didn't work, I would go down there personally and sit in his office until he saw me. If that didn't work, I'd go to the house of the Chairman of Deacons and take him with me to sit in the pastor's office.
Of course, I would tell him my name in advance and that kind of lets all you guys out who aren't willing to disclose your names.
As a pastor, I would never meet with an anonymous person, never answer an anonymous email, or give any creedance to anyone who wasn't willing to stand up and be counted. We can agree to disagree but it needs to be done in public.
rm - I realize that I will NEVER get a response to my anonymous emails from the pastor, as you point out. He clearly has a major conviction about that issue for some reason. I was just pointing out and reminding folks why these blogs got started. I don't expect any answers now. I just rely on the blog to raise concerns and have others read them and perhaps discuss some of them. My point was, it was Mac, not us, who decided blogging about our concerns was a better way to handle them than his responding to anon emails. I was just wondering if now he regrets that decision.
Personally, if I could discern from the email that the sender was indeed a member of the church, then I would respond at least once or twice in an effort to address the concerns. If the concerns persisted, I would encourage the emailer to come and meet with me. This would be much better than forcing members to blog. Which as you see, has moved way beyond a few concerned members who had a handful of questions.
Watchdog wouldn't it be neat if the members of FBC Jax rose up and provided some funds to help pay the remaining medical expenses of Sheri Klouda's husband? I think that would be a tremendous witness of our church, to undo the harm Mac has done, and pay off those expenses. I recall that Wade Burleson helped raise funds at one time. Maybe there is a way to help out her family, and let her know that even though our pastor seems to be on the side of Paige Patterson on this issue and willing to spread lies about her, we can show Sheri Klouda the goodness of the people at FBC Jax by helping her family. What do you think?
As a pastor, I would never meet with an anonymous person, never answer an anonymous email, or give any creedance to anyone who wasn't willing to stand up and be counted. We can agree to disagree but it needs to be done in public.
July 17, 2008 5:15 PM
Look where that got Klouda. YOu have never been ruined by a big powerful person before. Some of us have. Amazing how many call themseleves Christians but do not act like one.
Brunson owes Patterson. They are part of a club. They even trot out Steve Gaines once in a while to attack the Calvinist at the seminaries. As if Gaines has any credibility at all. But then those speaking engagements help to increase the income.
Giving money to Klouda would be far wiser and more scriptural than giving it to your current church which sounds like the church of Laodicea.
WD - I would like to give next week's tithe to "God" but instead of making my check to FBC Jax, I would like to make it out to Sheri Klouda to help her, her husband and her family. Where can I send my check? Thanks.
This authority over a man by a woman teacher (one who gives instructions) is completely out of control. Did not Deboroah judge Israel? Judges chapter 4:4-14, and what would have occured if Barak had not followed the advice of her. vs 16. Not one of the army of Sisera 10,000 survived.They were all slain by the sword. So much for a woman not teaching, directing, giving advice, whatever you desire to define it. She was greatly used by God as a judge of Israel which is a lot higher than a college professor!! Look at chapter 5 where she and Barak sang....shouldn't she have been quiet...no she and Barak sang and rejoiced over what the Lord did in avenging Israel. Was she a college professor? No, she was a judge, a much higher position of authority over a great multitude of men.
Look at Queen Esther.Her authority and favor with the king saved the entire Jewish race. She was somewhat higher than a college professor wouldn't you say?
One other thing brothers and sisters in the Lord:Galatians 5:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus".
Its strange that the gifts all distinguish between a pastor and a teacher, or an evangelist, etc...There is quite a stretch to put a teacher in a classroom and call him or her a pastor. It really doesn't matter what the subject is that is being taught. For we are all ONE in CHRIST JESUS.
The feast of Purim were they not granted by Queen Esther and Mordecai to confirm the second letter of Purim? Esther 8:29 AND IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK VS 32.
We make error when we get out of our spiritual clothes and put on our earthly suits. Jesus made another commandment: That ye should love one another. When and how did we arrive at this point in our service to God? Jesus also said that THERE IS no greater love when one dies for another. We need to shake off all of this legalistic hogwash that does nothing to build up one another and stop trying to destroy each other. This Klouda case is a disgrace to everyone concerned, especially to the household of faith.
No wonder those on the outside see whats going on in the inside and do not want anything to do with Christianity. Gandhi was told not to become a christian but go back to his own people. What a shame. He may have become a great voice for Jesus Christ had someone else led him to salvation through the shed blood of the Savior.
God help us.
PP is a "big game hunter". What do you expect from a guy that shoots helpless animals. I have no respect for this guy, or any of these self important actors.
I feel sorry for Ms. Klouda.
Anon 5:43 pm Donations
That is a great idea. That could be the place to send your offerings for July.
For those wishing to help Sheri Klouda, you might try contacting Wade Burleson at email@example.com.
WD -- It seems that Mac's views on women in ministry may have changed over the years. When he was running for president of the North Carolina Baptist State Convention in 1997, he was interviewed by the Biblical Recorder, the NCBSC newspaper. When he was asked about his views on ordination of women, his response was as follows:
The ordination of women to ministry is a local church issue and an individual matter which should not be a litmus test for fellowship. In my current and former pastorates, this has never been an issue. If it would arise, we would be congregational, as in every other matter. A more important aspect than ordination is the fruit of a congregation. In the past three years, Green Street Baptist Church has commissioned and sent two young women to full-time foreign mission work and we have two more women who have committed to foreign missions.
His claim to be "congregational" in decision-making is, of course, another matter entirely. But I found his apparently open-minded approach to ordination of women quite interesting in light of his recent comments regarding Dr. Klouda. (We all know, thanks to Patterson, that seminary professors are ministers in his mind.) I guess it was a "litmus test" for the fellowship of SWBTS.
For the full interview, see:
Here you go FBC Jax Members.
Here's your chance to make a real statement to the SBC who is watching this whole saga.
Our pastor has embarrassed himself and our church by his statements about Sheri. We hope he is Christian enough to apologize personally to Sheri Klouda, and that he sets the record straight with all of us that he lied to on Sunday night.
Now, we as FBC Jax members can give funds to Sheri's family to help them with her husband's medical expenses by sending gifts to Wade Burleson's church who has adopted her as a benevolence project. If you send gifts to Wade's church at:
Emmanuel Baptist Church
2505 West Garriott
Enid, Oklahoma 73703
and mark them clearly as "Sheri Klouda Fund" 100% of the money will go to Sheri Klouda, AND it will be tax deductable.
Pastor Burleson has emailed me to let me know that they are happy to accomodate any FBC Jax members or Watchdog readers who wish to contribute to aid Sheri Klouda's family.
FBC Jax, let's show the SBC how generous the people of FBC Jax are, and let's help her with the medical bills - its the least we can do given how our own pastor has harmed her.
LET'S DO IT!!!
Ms. Klouda was wronged by the Seminary and she was right to bring suit. (Sorry to those of you who think Christians should not bring suit. There was no other way to go with this one. It was sad that she lost in the end.)
The rules were changed on her after she was promised a tenured position. And that was wrong. it's really very simple. The real shocker was a SB seminary ever hiring a woman to teach anything other than home economics or music. So in the end it did turn out too good to be true.
Women are allowed to teach children and take care of babies in church (not sure where that is in the Bible but oh well) - the things most men don't want to do or consider trivial.
And so it goes with our SBC. Ever on the cutting edge.
I believe there are some BBC refugees out there that would be glad to join with FBC Jax in ministering to Sheri K. with our offerings.
Our blog administrator has a very informative link posted showing the changes the "Boys Club" orchestrated that brought our churches where they are today.
Dr Watchdog it is truly outrageous how this apparently decent woman Sheri Klouda has been maligned by Brunson and Patterson.Paige by the way is the same culprit who allowed Darrell Gilyard to run free in Texas before DG's deeds caught up with him.Brunson is proving my point that condition at FBCJ would continue to worsen[2Tim.3:13].PP and Brunson are power hungry individuals who are consumed with themselves and the pursuit of prestige and prominence at the expense of the Cross of Christ,Word of God,and the people of God.I am personally now beginning to wonder about Brunson's calling,and who it was that called him(Jesus or himself).Dr.Watchdog thanks for posting Mrs Klouda's letter it really brought tears to my eye's,and thanks for posting the address.Though I am not a member of FBCJ I am a pastor and I will be sending Mrs Klouda a contribution in care of my minisrty.......Thanks again.
Your blog is all fine and dandy. But make no mistake: Mac wears your and the other bloggers disdain for him as a badge of honor. Word is he will be in line to replace Patterson at Southwestern when Patterson retires. This little episode makes that possibility even more likely. Patterson and Brunson are two peas in a pod - except Patterson preaches Brunson under the table.
Lets all pray for and encourage Mac's "promotion" to SWBTS, as soon as possible. And next time lets get a pulpit selection committee that has NO TIES to the current heirachy of FBCJ. We need people that know how to pick a humble GOD CALLED pastor. Not a Purpose Driven celebrity. Until then keep your money. Nothing will happen until the money dries up !!!!.
I am voting for "change". Another one.
I was there both sunday morning and sunday night and ALL i heard him say was a story about Christians not suing each other. I never heard Sheri Klouda's name, I never heard him say she didn't have a reason for concern, he just said that he doesn't believe in Christians suing Christians. While I may COMPLETELY disagree with what happened to Sheri Klouda, and I may COMPLETELY disagree that someone like darryl gilyard doesn't deserve to be JAILED thru the COURT system, you are taking what Dr. Brunson said and making it more than what it was....and I really thought he said this stuff on sunday morning too. He didn't slander Sheri Klouda ever at any time last sunday. What is up with you? Just listen to the sermons.....You have AGAIN turned Dr. Brunson into Paige Patterson...his actions weren't Paige Patterson's...you do that all the time watchdog, and its not really fair.
Why don't we just have Trey "raise" another $100,000 like he did during the pastor conference, and donate it to Dr. Klouda?
What a statement it would make that our "Hotbed of legalism" is not interested in these distinctions about a teacher of Hebrew being a "pastor" in authority over men, and instead, they are concerned over actually helping this wife and mother who has been wronged and is in real need. I don't think Jesus would have lunch at Deerwood Country Club with Maurilio and Mac. He would likely be found having lunch with Dr. Klouda.
"Just say no to Mac!"
Watchdog - Let's see if I follow what Mac teaches: if I give 10% of my income to Dr. Klouda then I have robbed God. But if I give 10% to the $14 million dollar budget of FBC Jax so Mac and Debbie and Trey can all go to Greece and Israel as often as they like, then I am being faithful? How blind have we become? Wake up FBC Jax. You are robbing God by giving your money to the large religious corporation downtown. Read your Bible. Get God's money into the lives of the people Jesus told you to help. He will demand an accounting someday according to His Word.
Anon - ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Did you bother to listen to the clip that I archived?
This is the problem folks reading this blog with FBC Jax. We have people in our church, ALOT OF THEM....who just can't use their minds to fairly evaluate what is happening in their own church at the hands of Mac Brunson. This Anon is a PRIME example of this.
Anon if you even bother to listen to the clip that I hyperlinked, then read this article, you will come to the conclusion that Mac Brunson was telling a story about Sheri Klouda, and Paige Patterson's attorney who told Mac that Sheri Klouda testified that she was wrong to bring her lawsuit. ITS CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT MAC WAS REFERRING TO THE KLOUDA CASE. This isn't even in dispute.
There was a very clear reason why Mac didn't use Sheri Klouda's name in his sermon. He knows that a relatively few number of people in his congregation would pick up on what it was. If he used her name, that might cause someone to actually look up the facts about the case and see he is lying. But he knows those other pastors around the SBC, including Paige Patterson, who might listen to his sermon, would know EXACTLY who he was talking about. So he does a favor to PP by pouring salt into Sheri Klouda's wounds by lying about her testimony. And he has the unmittigated gall to use our church and our pulpit to do it.
I wonder what the Dave Bristowes, Adrian Souds, Judge A.C. Souds, and the many other men in charge at our church think about Mac Brunson using our church and our pulpit to smear someone. Will they even bother to go to Mac and tell him to knock it off and stop lying? Two sermons in a row Mac plays fast and loose with facts.
He has zero credibility now in the pulpit at FBC Jax. There is a growing number of people who are beginning to put two and two together and see what Mac is all about.
I hope that FBC Jax Christians will take their tithes and offerings and send it to Sheri Klouda.
And send an email to Mac to tell him to stop the lying, to publicly apologize from the pulpit for lying about Sheri Klouda, and tell us he will do a better job checking his facts that he uses in his sermons.
WD - shame on you. If we give our money to help Sheri Klouda, then how will our church be able to pay Debbie's salary? Or Trey's? And who will do all that work they are currently doing? And how would we pay Maurilio?
I think Debbie Brunson should be fired. She is an employee of the church, dare we say a minister. And clearly she is telling Mac what to do in so many areas...and Mac has admitted that women are "more sensitive to the Holy Spirit than men"....so she is ruling over men in our church, and we can't have that. Or is that being legalistic?
I am glad WD you put Ms. Klouda's picture and comments on the post. She doesn't come across as a mean spirited individual nor does she have the demeanor of a whiner. She has real class from what I have read here and hope and pray she will be afforded the opportunity to use her talents and gifts of teaching. Her dismissal shows NO CLASS. Here's another case that should have been handled by some judge who would have seen through the smoke-screen. Her being a "minister", something PP, she, and every other competent and impartial witness realizes, was just such a smoke-screen.. It's a shame that she was the one who appears to have lost. Who knows however what the court of public opinion believes. Maybe there is another attorney that could appeal this case on a humanitarian basis.
You people kill me. If you had any idea how many phone messages, letters and emails a pastor in a church the size of yours gets, I think you would be astounded. Thousands each week. If you think for even a minute he has time to read them all and do any portion of the job you called him to do, then you have more hours on your watch than I do. If like most large/mega churches have, your church has a generic mail/email address for your pastor that staff sort through and send to the appropriate co-pastor or staff member or directly to the pastor. I am sure you old timers remember both Lindsay and Vines said many times that if you can’t sign your letter, it wasn’t important enough for them to read. Getting an appointment with your pastor shouldn’t be very difficult at all. Start with your name and the reason you would like to meet with him. Be flexible with his lengthy schedule and as a previous blogger stated, if that doesn’t work to your satisfaction, pay a visit to the chairman of your deacons. Blog anonymously if you must, but don’t blame Brunson if your anonymous messages don’t get his attention. Finally, it has been said several times in previous blogs and you should give some prayful consideration to the fact that if each of us spent half as much time being thankful instead of complaining and the same amount of time sharing Christ as we waist in front of computers and the tv and twice as much time praying for others than talking about them, then we would see things differently, things would change.
WD. why havent you gone to Dave Bristowes, Adrian Souds, Judge A.C. Souds and asked them any of your questions? I am surprised no one seems to have "what it takes" to step up and ask the questions. You certainly have that right. They are very available. Go to these men, tell them all of your concerns and get back to us with their answers. Then we will know what direction our church is really going in.
WD - no need to mention any of the lay leaders in our church by name on this blog. They know who they are, and so do we. Besides, we ALL share in this nonsense since NONE of us is man enough, or committed to Jesus enough, to stop Mac's abuses. Those men likely don't see ANY problems with Mac's leadership, or if they do, they themselves are benefitting in some manner from their personal relationships with the office of pastor at FBC Jax. Either way, no way they risk being black listed and approached by a discipline committee. They have too much to lose.
Also, I don't feel comfortable with singling out those men by name when there are thousands of others that could be named also. ALL of us will give an account. Remember, good Christian men said and did nothing during slavery, during the Holocaust, during Bob Gray's tenure, during Bob Reccord's time at NAMB, and during Team Brunson's time at FBC Jax.
The only "voice" that needs to be heard by Maurilio, Mac, Debbie and Trey is that of the generous giver. If the giving stops, then and only then, will they give pause to their leadership.
We pay 4 full time employees who help answer Mac's emails. Mac himself, his secretary, Debbie Brunson, and Trey Brunson. He and Trey and Debbie provide answers to all emails coming in to the firstname.lastname@example.org. But they don't answer anonymous emails even if they contain information that would reasonably come from a member.
So spare me the sob story of how tough it is as to how many emails he gets. The man has a full staff devoted to him and his role as a pastor that can easily sort through emails and answer ones that contain expressions of serious concern over his actions.
And let me tell you friends...this anon might be well meaning and sincere...but he's cluelesss. Here's some good advice: don't attempt to meet with Mac about concerns that you have about his pastorship and handling of affairs at the church. Its too late for that. You can't trust what he tells you, he has proven himself to not be able to tell the truth - to tell lies and half-truths from his pulpit if it serves himself. He thinks we're stupid enough to believe his lies, so don't bother meeting with him. I will not believe most things he tells me from the pulpit unless I check it myself. Furthermore, if you do express displeasure in how he is treating our church, you run the risk of being removed from any leadership positions you hold. It has happened already to some at our church. If you're unhappy with Mac, they don't want to hear from you. They want you to leave.
Sorry anon, but I disagree.
I didn't randomly choose three names.
I chose three men who are or recently have held the highest lay positions in our church.
We elected the trustees to serve the church. Deacons are selected to serve the people of the church. They have a responsibility higher than the average Joe church member when it comes to holding Brunson accountable.
And no I will not go to these men personally to express my concerns over Mac. Some have done that, and they paid a dear price in our church, and sorry Charlie, not willing to pay that price. If that makes me a coward, then so be it. I've certainly be called worse.
I will BLOG ON!!!
"Let me tell you friends", this anon is not at all clueless and knows more than your WD claims to know. He is leading you down a path of heresy and shame. If Dr. Brunson is all that WD claims than God will take care of him just as he has through the ages. God may use men for this, but not in the unscriptural way and direction WD thinks is right. And just to let you know, pastor@fbcjax is sorted through a department in media before it ever goes to the pastors staff. I am well meaning, but not clueless as to how God has commanded each of us to act. And these attempts to discredit your pastor are not as we are told to conduct ourselves. WD hasnt even attempted to have a meeting with the Pastor or any staff member if he had, he would have given those accounts or attempts - be honest with your readers WD, you havent gone there. As you indicated, you are more concerned or afraid of having your "position" removed or asked to step down. A small price to pay if you ask me depending on what is more important, the future of the church, the things Dr. Brunson is doing that are so wrong in your eyes or you keeping your position in the church.
Yep, an anonymous blogger is leading our church to heresy and shame.
Not the abusive pastor.
Wow. Are we ever in trouble.
You keep claiming "some" have gone to these men with their concerns and then "paid a price" for expressing these concerns. But not one person has come forward, not even anonymously in your blogs and said, "Yes, that happened to me". PS. couldn’t even post my blog, just a reply...you do that more and more often. Pretty cool how the blog administrator can edit what ever they want. Works out in your favor every time. You’re a fraud WD. If this really meant so much to you, if you were the mighty concerned Christian you seem to claim, than stand up and declare the injustice. At least to a bunch of regular guys, deacons and men just like you...but you cant, you wont, you have taken all of this beyond the truth and you are in too deep and you know it. What may have started as dutiful and reasonable questions and concerns and gone too far and you can’t stop.
Yes, some have, I know them and have talked to them. Some don't want to share their stories here for fear of continual retribution.
Nope, I'm not a fraud, only in your own mind, and that's OK.
But this is how the it works in the SBC. Defend to the hilt the indefensible in the big-wigs...but my gosh we have to get rid of those pesky recalcitrant bloggers - they're a scourge!
We will blog on.
"Continual retribution"? do we live in the dark ages? What in the world do you mean? So what happened to these people? They were asked to step down from teaching or ask to leave the church? What else can anyone do? If I came public with information or asked questions that had me removed from a position I believed God called me too, you wouldn’t be able to shut me up, are you kidding me. They "paid a price" for coming forward or asking questions they thought needed answering, but now, now that this has happened to them they are too afraid to tell their story? Afraid of who or what. None of that makes any sense.
It doesn't need to make sense to you. If these people did come forward on this blog to tell their story, and who knows maybe they will in response to your posts...if they did, they won't be believed, they will likely be told how it was their fault everything that happened to them, that they were troublemakers, they didn't follow Matthew 18 properly, etc. etc.
I've got one for ya WD...so who's koolaid are you drinking? do you come up with all of these really great stories, comments and information all by yourself or do you get your marching orders from someone (obviously not God) in a higher authority or position.
I have this feeling you are like the wizard in the movie The Wizard of OZ (at best)
Annon. 3:28: Talk to the preacher, go to the lay leaders??? Are you kidding??? How long do you think one would be allowed to stay in the church? That's just what they want, your name, so you would become a "former" member before you could get to the parking lot!!!
Talking to the preacher sure worked for Mrs. Klouda didn't it!!!! WARNING to anyone thinking about talking to ANYONE their interests are NOT your interests!!!!
When Mac takes over as suggested at SWBTS, will Debbie get to be on staff? How about Trey? How about other family and friends? Will Debbie be thought of as a "minister"? Is she a "minister" now at FBCJ?
If you think for one minute that you can "talk" to anyone down there, you are very mistaken. They don't want to hear it!!! They are happy being "important" at the great FBCJ!! Sad, Sad, Sad. If I was a deacon or in some other nothing position down there I would resign rather than have my name "tarnished" being linked with that group of "do nothing" men. As for the church right now it is unholy ground. And will stay that way until we get a real preacher.
And when Mac finally leaves make sure he takes Maurillo with him!!!
In good conscience I could not give money to this church. I no longer look at it as a church. It's a social meeting place, a club if you will and your money keeps it open for the benefit of those running it.
A word to all of the hundreds of first time visitors to the site in the last day from the Klouda post:
I hope you see what kind of response we get from people in our church. I am harsh at times I admit, cynical, and sarcastic...but I have done everything I can do to be truthful in my main posts to alert the FBC Jax church of the abuses of Mac Brunson.
I get accused over and over of slandering, lying, exaggerating, etc. while very few ever address the concerns. Please, I invite the new comers to this blog to browse past articles to see what has been going on at FBC Jax under Mac Brunson.
Forget it anon, you're not making sense and I won't continue to post your nonsensical ramblings. When I say "doesn't have to make sense" it means that just because you don't understand something in your world, or if in your mind it "doesn't make sense"...it doesn't mean it ain't true.
anon 4:41 you have no idea what you are talking about, but if it makes you feel better, keep on blogging. I have personally gone to a previous pastor with reasonable concerns about leadership, events and directions the church was taking. I met with two deacons another staff member on Dr. Vines. Once everyone heard what I had to say, and they did listen, I was told they would no longer need me to teach. I HAVE TWO IMPORTANT POINTS. One: I admit today I showed no repsect or regard to the positions of these men and thought because I was "right" and had been in a position of leadership myself for many years, that I had some right to draw my sword and start swinging. I WAS NEVER ASKED TO LEAVE THE CHURCH. NO ONE OUTSIDE THAT ROOM EVER KNEW WHAT WAS SAID THAT EVENING. NOT EVEN OTHER STAFF MEMBERS. They just said that at the time, the position of leadership I was holding would be inappropriate for me to continue to hold in light of my opinions and objections. I was actually treated with more respect by those men than those I made accusations about. They were absolutly correct to remove me. I didnt think so at the time, but have learned better sense. God has taught me primarily that my pride was my problem.
TWO: you can absolutly do what I did in a more appropriate and respectful, loving, Christ-like manor and you will not receive retrobution. It is all about your attitude and motives. And it is God not these men who will know and recognize the difference.
Finally, I dont give a rip what WD and everyone else thinks or says, it just isnt our job to "call the pastor out" on these issues. We serve a Sovereign God who know your heart, mine and Dr. Brunson's and doesnt need our help to deal with any of us who are out of His will. God didnt need me to address Dr. Vines when I did and funny thing is, within two years, the staff I had issue with, the problems I was concerned about and Dr. Vines were all gone, but I was left to face how poorly I delt with everything.
dont post this either - your an idiot. you are afraid to post the truth, then you degrade the person making the post and you expect all of us to beleive anything that comes out of you. you are pathetic and I am emabarassed that I have waisted my time here.
come on WD, what are you afraid of - THE TRUTH?
so you know my ip address and are not posting me, but you are reading it. I would rather you read it than anyone else. my koolaid taste better than yours and it doesnt keep me up all night.
oh and you are a slandering, lying, exaggerating and so on, much like those you accuse of the same. You know you are. you should really be a nonfiction writer. Just enough truth to keep'em reading and enough garbage to make'em come back for more. PROUD?
missed you in church wed. the kids were great and Jim did a good job, hey and he wasnt wearing jeans, guess that would be a sin huh? do you even care how many children were saved as a result of VBS? how many visitors came to VBS? not enough juicy stuff there?
so what do you think of the changes coming to the Sunday School classes? Surprise, coming to a class near you...might be me :) some new directors, new teaching assignments, some teachers will asked to be "small group leaders" and they will combine small classes then rotate teachers weekly (thats where you and I might get to work together) scary huh?
Ann 4:20: Leave WD alone he is telling the truth. People don't have to give details to you just because it doesn't make sense to you. They are not stupid!!
WD you must have a hard time making friends. You are constantly so rude, arrogant and condescending. I cant imagine anyone wanting to spend much time with such a know-it-all.
Such hateful Christians at FBC Jax posting here. They want the Lord to handle Mac Brunson...God is sovereign they say when it comes to Mac and we should point out his abuses - let God handle it...but as for the watchdog, we must take care of him and make sure he knows how bad he is, and what a liar he is...and we must get him to stop.
Acknowledging the truth can be a painfull thing.
Christian or no, the human element still exists in us and the reaction can be as violent as detox.
These recent "Christian" posters are refusing to see things the way they really are.
Maybe in their mind, they're clinging to the memory of the glory days of FBC and won't let go.
Sadly our beloved church is not the same and tragically never will be.
I used to say FBC will still be OK as long as we don't stray from our true mission - reaching the lost for Christ. I truly believe that's why FBC has prospered and grown over the years. Now that we're following the PD playbook, with visitation and being "in the trenches" on a whole scale effort to reach people for Christ has been abandoned by the church, I fear the blessings of our church will diminish.
WAKE UP FBC!!
The fox is in the henhouse!( I should say foxES)
WD isn't the problem, nor is he the solution.
Don't slay the messenger just because you don't like the message!
I only hope God intervenes before FBC goes completely down the drain!
Please take note of the previous post signed "RM". That is not me.
To the Anons who still think they know personal facts about me and continue to post threatening messages to get me to take this blog down: I won't stop. Get over it. You think you can communicate to me that you know who I am (and its clear you DON'T know who I am based on the name you are calling me!) and that you threaten to "expose" me. You obviously think this would harm me and my family, and you must want to harm me. So go ahead, keep trying to find out who I am so you can expose me, as though that will help the situation at our church. How sad - either you are a vindictive person and just want to harm me, or worse you think that I am the problem at the church and not the pastor and you can help solve the problem by harming me and getting me under your threats of exposure to shut down the blog. Harm me all you want, it ain't gonna work.
Some advice: please, please please....if you think you know who I am, take my name, take my family members names, and go to the pastor and discipline committee. Share it with them, ask them to come to my house. Ask them to remove me from the membership. Expose me if you wish. But as the previous Anon poster said, the Watchdog is not the problem, and I am certainly not the answer. You can expose the watchdog, you can try to harm me and my family if you wish. But that won't solve the problems at our church.
As much as you don't want to admit it, this blog is sharing FACTS and commentary of those facts with the members of the FBC Jax and the SBC. If you want to get to a root cause problem, its not the blog, its the pastor's actions of which this blog is about.
I won't give in to your threats. I'll keep blogging. Count on it. As long as Mac keeps abusing our church, I'll keep blogging. And obviously, obviously, you'll keep reading!!
First Mac, then Patterson, the IMB and SBC. Where do you stop? And you say the anon is a hateful Christain. do you even read the stuff you write. People are beleiving everything you write as fact, and why should they, we dont even know who you are. There is little validity to many of the things you claim. Your comments about neing exposed makes you sound like a martyr. You dont see any light at the end of the tunnel. Other than Mac publicly confessing his wrong doing and possible stepping down (which wont happen) you offer no other solutions.
The anon that seems to know you seems to be still showing restraint in that he is using your screen name.
July 19, 2008 8:42 AM - The anon "that seems to know" me is misinformed and wrong. He is not showing "restraint" by posting personal information about another man and family in our church, which of course, I am not going to post. THIS WILL BE MY LAST PUBLIC RESPONSE to anyone trying to guess who I am, or post personal information about other people in our church that they assume is the WD.
Please, simply call or email the person you think is the Watchdog. I am sure that man will be glad to talk with you. As a matter of fact, I would expect the church staff, or deacon chair, or trustee, to call anyone they think is the WD and tell them straight up "we believe you are the WD based on x, y and z and we would like you to stop." The bottom line is, apparently, no one has any clue as to who I am. OR, some do know, but they realize the futility in trying to keep someone from blogging. I may blog for another five years if I choose. Hopefully, things will get better and my blog will be about all that God is doing at FBC Jax. Unfortunately, when the preacher lies to us, and abuses finances, then I will be blogging about that. I am not going to stop either way, even if "exposed."
Now, let's get back to the topic of why Mac would choose to disclose to the whole church, and to the whole world over internet and radio and TV, a personal and private conversation he had with the defense attorney of Sheri Klouda. This lawyer was on a cruise with a friend in Greece. He could never imagine Mac would use this conversation in a sermon, and then twist the story to imply Dr.Klouda said and did something that is not true. This issue was put to rest for the most part, but Mac once again opens his mouth without thinking and brings more scrutiny upon himself, this defense lawyer, Paige Patterson, and the SBC. With friends like Mac, who needs enemies.
I wonder if the attorney that gave the preacher facts on the Klouda case thought he was speaking in confidence? If so then the preacher was speaking "out of school". Sort of like he did about the couple in Texas he and Debbie counseled. The moral is things spoken to "this" preacher may not stay in confidence. Doesn't that violate some moral law? Pastor confidentiality or something? Beware if you don't want to be the subject in a sermon don't tell them anything. This odd behavior coming from someone who is very secretive about his own business. And passes by-laws that very few but the elite have seen.
WD, don't listen to these people trying to intimidate you. More and more people at the church are beginning to put the pieces of the Mac Brunson puzzle together. You have done a very good thing on this blog. Your style at times I don't agree with. But you have dared to listen to his words, compare them to his previous statements in his book and then share them with the congregation. This is a very good thing. You've listened to his words in just the last two weeks and have exposed him to be a one who takes great liberty with historical facts; and one who breaches confidentiality; and one who will lie about someone like Sheri Klouda. You've helped expose some major character flaws in Brunson that he needs to get right or his time at Jacksonville will be very brief. You will see very soon that Jerry Sutton will be given his walking papers at Two Rivers for the manner in which he has harmed his church. Let's hope this is a trend.
Brunson vs. Vines
I wonder if Mac - now that he either has been alerted to the fact that he told a lie or now knows his lie has been exposed - that he will offer a public apology to his congregation for lying to them and to Sheri Klouda for lying about her.
Let's contrast Brunson with Jerry Vines - Vines made his share of famous quotes that got him into hot water - the most notable was the "demon-possessed pedophile" quote describing Mohammed. Most secular bios even define Vines by this one quote. Boy did Vines take some heat for that in the secular AS WELL AS Christian community (many people on Christendom condemned him for his remarks). But he did have the backbone to stand in front of his congregation and read a prepared statement addressing the controversy. He did it in front of a packed house at FBC Jax. He explained that he had historical evidence upon which he made the statement, chapter and verse out of the Koran, said that he believes the Bible that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven, and that was all he said. He got a standing ovation from his congregation, then went on to preach a bible sermon.
So Vines didn't carelessly "pop off" about his views on Mohammed...he didn't take historical facts...he didn't misquote someone or make up a quote about what some person said in history....and he didn't mischaracterize someone's testimony. Vines carefully researched his statement on Mohammed, knew the heat would come and had chapter and verse out of the Koran on which he stood by his statement (as well as a former Muslim who backed him up).
Then comes Mac in his pick-up from Deerwood with his Krispy Kremes...he gives a false account of Rothschild's banking empire that never happened as though it was history...then lies about Sheri Klouda's testimony. No small matter - as one blogger has said probably the most significant court case in SBC life in the past 10 years. Mac has now drawn the gaze of thousands all over the SBC over his statements of Klouda...what will he do? Will he have the backbone as Vines did and stand and offer his facts to back up what he says about Klouda? Or does he just figure we'll get over it? We shall see...and I think I know what to expect.
I for one think it is too late for the preacher to "get right". He has lost his chance here. Now it only remains for the men (?) to do what they need to, in order to protect this once great church. The preacher must move on to "greener" pastures where his "style", history, and anger can be properly appreciated.
I know you said you wouldn't post any more of the things about who you are WD but please hear me. You should be prepared. If people know who you are but are not saying, they do so not out of kindness or restraint as some blogger said, but because they believe it now to be in the best interest of the church and Mac. If Mac Brunson surprises everyone and bolts for another opportunity, you my friend will bear the brunt and the wrath of his faithful followers of which there are many and they are young and brash. Mac Brunson is a man with a tremendous need to feel the respect of his congregation and when he senses that its not there or has waned below an acceptable level, he starts looking for a way out. I am not saying you would be the cause of him leaving as his problems are of his own making, but it would be perceived that way by many who are outraged by your audacity of speaking out on Mac Brunson as you do. So be ready.
Do you really think your little blog with about 3 or 4 people who post against Mac Brunson are going to change the course of this church? Wow, you have got the big head fbc jax watchdog. Come on, please stop exaggerating the importance of an internet blog. Anybody can get on here and say anything...how many people in a church of thousands do you think READ this thing, and how many people do you think BELIEVE it. And how many people do you think care? About 10? Well, i get on the internet and say stuff all the time, it doesn't make it IMPORTANT. At least I know my place as a troll. But I wouldn't be trolling against a church or a pastor like you, I'd be too scared.
As disheartening and disgusting as it is that Dr. Klouda did not win her case against SWBTS, the saddest phrase in her letter is:
"No one in my own church came forward once when my husband was ill, or expressed any concern about out situation at all apart from a few of the adults who taught junior high."
We Baptists tell folks that everyone should get involved in Sunday morning Bible Study, either teaching or as a class member, and THAT's where your support system comes from. Hmmmm....didn't exactly pan out that way at FBD.
That's easy Anon - as Mac preaches, we need to be accomdating and friendly to the lost, but for the "recalcitants", we must not associate with them. I'm surprised there wasn't a discipline committee that sought to throw her out of the church for bringing a lawsuit against SWBTS and Paige Patterson.
Some of those posting here have a misconception concerning Matt 18: vs 15-17. Matthew is writing to the Jews. Notice how in vs 17 he uses the phrase "be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican". Note unto thee (one individual) not two or more or a group. The word heathen is found in the greek text as "ethnikos" which is specically a Gentile. To the Jew a Gentile was not a Jew. Therefore, the one offended, if he was not able to talk to the offender, he alone was to treat the person as a Gentile. (Gentiles were heathen to the Jews). No one else is involved, since they are not a party to the dispute. Remember when the Sandherin met to take action against Jesus it was their decision to have him crucified, yet, he was innocent of all their charges. It does not always appear that groups make the best decisions. I do not find anywhere in the bible that the church should become involved in disputes between individuals in the book of Matthew. It may be somewhere else, but definitely does not appear there.
The New Testament church does not appear until Acts chp.2. The Holy Spirit did not come down until Acts. Chp. 2: vs. 2-4.
The book of Matthew is a transitional book. It is written from a Jewish standpoint to the Jew.
In Matt. Chp. l8, the people were not yet saved. Jesus did not go to the Cross until Matt: chp. 27.The brother spoken of in chp. 18 is clearly the Jew to the Jew. Jews had nothing to do with Gentiles. A Gentile could not go to a synagogue. So applying Matt.l8 to the church and a Christian does not fit. Verse l7, Jesus speaks of the church but it is not the Christian church of today. Acts:ll: vs.26b: "And the diciples were called Christians first in Antioch".
At 70+ comments on this post alone I believe there are more than 10 people that read it. Keep up the good work.
A former member of FBD......
Readers: I can no longer allow straight "Anonymous" postings. From this day on anyone wishing to post comments on the Watchdog posts must register with Google. You can still post anonymously by giving yourself a nondescriptive "Display Name" during the registration process, and choosing the option to hide your email address from your profile.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
This should really be interesting since I imagine most of the anonymous posters are afraid to even remotely reveal their names because they're afraid Mac will do something to them.
Sometimes I think you folks need to get real.
Revealing your real names might actually lead to some credibility on your part and maybe some actual answers on their part.
Try it--you might like it.
rm - no one is afraid Mac "will do something to them." But there are always some nuts in large churches who think they are doing "God's Will" by taking matters into their own hands. They are unstable and certainly would be acting contrary to what Mac would have them do. They are dangerous, so anonymity is wise. Such nuts attend FBC, and they read blogs, and they are not rational. So I commend WD for requiring screen names at least.
Scott? Joni? Who are you speaking to?
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