The Florida Times Union (Jacksonville's local newspaper) today is running an article entitled "What Would Jesus Blog" on religious blogs featuring quotes about Mac Brunson and this blog. What impeccable timing, given that Brunson and his discipline committee issued trespass warnings just last week on the eve of Thanksgiving to a long-time member of the church and his wife that the church is accusing of running the blog (click here to view the trespass warnings issued by the church and click here to read the article).
I'm sure many of you reading this article right now have read Jeff Brumley's article. The article says that this blog is critical of Brunson's salary and the decision to start a school, as though these are the only issues at our church. Oh if that were true! But unfortunately for our church, those are not the main issues. Not only has the church just last week decided to issue trespass warnings against a man and his wife that are accused of owning this blog, but there is a whole slew of concerns at our church that do NOT have anything to do with starting a school or the pastor's salary.
Jeff Brumley has always been very fair to FBC Jacksonville and has written excellent pieces on Jerry Vines, Homer Lindsay, Jr., and FBC Jax in general. But I think Jeff was just too soft in this article, mischaracterizing the concerns of the bloggers about FBC Jacksonville and Mac Brunson. And too bad he couldn't do some last minute updates to discuss in his article why Mac's discipline committee issued trespass warnings against the man and his wife accused of owning this blog. Also too late to make Jeff's article: Jeff's Catholic readers might be interested in knowing that Mac Brunson's right-hand man at FBC Jax has a series of blog articles on the church website stating that Catholic priests are "cult leaders", and the Catholic Church is a "cult". This church blog from Mac's right hand man also declares that those who voted for Obama need to repent of their "sin".
But in the event that Brumley's article does generate traffic to this particular blog (although Jeff doesn't include its name or web address in his article), I want to make sure that any new readers understand fully why this blog exists. Jeff is wrong, it is not about Mac's salary and the church's decision to start a school. Why did this blog start, and why is it still up and running with a vast readership? Why are the people running this blog and posting on this blog mostly anonymous? And just what are the issues at FBC Jax that this blog has dealt with for over a year?
Firstly, why the blog? This blog was not set up to "throw stones" at the FBC Jax or Mac Brunson. It was established after Mac Brunson for about a year was found to have engaged in several very questionable activities in his first year and a half as pastor of FBC Jax. All of these were ignored by Jeff Brumley in the article. The purpose of the blog was to attempt to hold the leadership accountable for questionable actions since Mac Brunson arrived, and to inform church members of the same in light of the absence of information coming from the church leadership. The blog contains video and audio clips of things Mac himself has said. If you browse the past articles of this blog you might be shocked at what you hear coming out of the FBC Jax pulpit these days.
Now, what were the questionable activities over which this blog was started? Since Jeff didn't include these in his article, and apparently didn't ask Mac Brunson about them, here they are for Brumley's readers:
1. Just a few weeks after his arrival in Jacksonville, Mac Brunson accepted a land gift worth $300,000 in Deerwood Country Club. This is a matter of public record and can be found on the city property appraisor's website. The gift was given for "love and affection" by developer J.D. Collins, a member of FBC Jacksonville. This raises serious ethical questions. Was the gift a pre-arranged gift as condition of him coming to Jacksonville, or just a spontaneous gift from the giver? Was the relocation package offered by the church revised when it became known that a member had directly given a large gift to the pastor for his home? What are the ethics of a pastor of a large church who presumably is paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the church in salary and benefits and housing allowance, then accepting a land gift FROM ONE OF THE CHURCH DONORS? This would be considered unethical in almost any other corporation or non-profit organization, yet its tolerated in our church. What was Mac's response to his church about this? Nothing, other than this past summer to say in a sermon: "I'm paying for that house...and the last time I checked, the United States Government said I could live anywhere I wanted."
2. About a year and a half after Mac was given the gift by J.D. Collins, Mac Brunson aired a professionally done "video testimony" highlighting the home building business of the sons of J.D. Collins - RIGHT SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS SERMON. I call that "quid pro quo". Never has a video testimony highlighting a member's business been aired in the middle of a preacher's sermon. What a coincidence that the first one was for the sons of a man who gifted Mac Brunson $300,000.
3. One of the most egregious acts that this blog was critical of was the manner by which the church bylaws were significantly changed in 2007. The pastor and his trustees were completely silent with regard to the bylaw changes and they called for a vote knowing hardly anyone in the congregation knew of the changes. No words of explanation AT ALL were given prior to the vote in November 2007. One of the changes was to form a discipline committee. Not one single, solitary word of explanation from the pastor.
4. The blog has called into question the issue of "nepotism" at our church. Since they arrived in Jacksonville, Mac's son is employed at the church, and Mac has said that his wife also is working with him at the church. The son's title has varied and we're unsure what the latest title is. But both positions were newly created positions (they are not listed on the church website) and both of these new positions were filled by the pastor's family. That is called "nepotism". The dangers of nepotism to an organization are well documented.
5. Mac Brunson lived nearly a year rent-free in a million dollar, ocean-front condo offered by one of the church members while he waited for his million dollar home to be built on the $300,000 land donated by a church member. Was Brunson's relocation package altered in light of him receiving this free rent? Did the church pay him for relocation expenses that were not incurred?
6. Mac Brunson took time off from his preaching duties, at his own admission, for the purpose of finishing his book manuscript "A Pastor's Guidebook". In this Guidebook, Mac Brunson cautions pastors against accepting gifts, and cautions them against living in "executive homes" and driving expensive cars....the things Mac himself did when he came here to Jacksonville.
7. Mac said things very critical and hurtful about his congregation when preaching out of town. He did not defend his church against allegations made in his presence about our church by one Paige Patterson, president of the SWBTS. Mac called our church a "hotbed of legalism" while he preached in North Carolina, and said that we "have a list of rules but hardly anyone has a real relationship with Jesus Christ." The blog called on Mac to either explain these remarks or apologize.
8. This blog was very critical of the decision of our church leaders to take over 3000 precious square feet of our newest building, the Children's Building and Welcome Center, and spent $100,000 to renovate it and create a pastor's suite for Mac Brunson and his wife and secretary and dogs. The blog pointed out the carlessness in doing this BEFORE Brunson ever arrived and had a chance to assess our facility needs.
9. Brunson allowed "influential deacons" to utilize our church facilities to host a "Time to Stand for Israel" night November 8, 2007, to raise funds for an Israeli hospital where state-funded abortions are conducted.
10. Brunson has allowed our Pastor's Conference to be converted into a marketing fund raiser, selling advertising space and charging $750 for ministries to have a display table at the conference, and selling "promotional packages" that include advertisements on the church image screens and access to the pulpit.
11. Mac Brunson told a blatant lie about Dr. Sheri Klouda, a former Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary professor who lost her job at the hands of seminary president Paige Patterson for being a woman "teaching men" contrary to scripture. This was a very public and controversial topic in Southern Baptist life the last two years, and Brunson brought our church into it and brought it onto this blog when he used OUR CHURCH PULPIT to spread a lie about a woman whom he pastored in Dallas when her world was turned upside down by Paige Patterson. Brunson said in a sermon that Dr. Klouda admitted in testimony that her lawsuit violated scriptural precepts, when she said nothing of the sort. This was a shameless attempt by Mac to use his power and influence and OUR CHURCH NAME to help cast his friend Paige Patterson in a positive light, and to further kick Sheri Klouda more than she already had been. Worse than all of that, Mac has never publicly apologized to his church for spreading this lie about Dr. Sheri Klouda. This blog served as a place for Sheri Klouda to tell HER side of the story and refute Mac's lie and others told about her by supporters of Paige Patterson.
12. Mac held a special offering on Easter Sunday 2008 to raise money to again put himself on nationwide TV...then five months later asked for another special offering to raise $1 million for "emergency repairs" to our facility that we had know about for some time but failed to budget for. In the most cold manner possible, Mac demanded that we fork over $1 million in two weeks else our decades of debt-free financing would be broken. Mac couldn't even manage to stay for the entire service where the $1 million was to be raised, as he left the service before it concluded early for his European vacation - taken with the head of our finance committee to tour Italy.
There are many other things that have been discussed in this blog, these are just 12 of them. And none of them have to do with Mac's salary or the decision to start a school.
Regarding the anonymity issue: Anonymity has nothing to do with cowardice as proclaimed by many of the Watchdog critics. Anonymity is desired in discussing these topics for reasons of safety from crazy church people, to be blunt. In a church the size of FBC Jacksonville, people who dare to raise questions or call into question the wisdom of the leaders are subject to intense hatred and scorn from a certain portion of the congregation. There are some nuts in any church who simply won't put up with anyone being critical of the pastor or lay leaders and will seek to silence critics by any means possible. They will seek to do harm to the reputation of critics, possibly even physical harm. The events of the past week where the discipline committee of the church, once it was made aware of the identity of an accused blogger, decided as their FIRST action to issue trespass warnings against the blogger and his wife! Are you an accused blogger? You are banned from the property. Kid singing in church Wednesday? Doesn't matter, banned from the property. So if there is any question as to why anonymity is preferred, the events of the past week make it abundantly clear.
This blog has had quite a readership in its year and a half of existence, and this can be attributed not to the credibility of the posters (they are anonymous!), but mostly due to the lack of answers and explanations from the church leadership themselves on these issues! Like it or not, this blog HAS been a site where information and analysis and discussion of church matters has taken place amongst like-minded people. Not the forum that the church prefers because they have no control over its content, but the church has to deal with this form of communication. Time to get get "cutting edge" as Mac Brunson likes to say. Mac could make this blog irrelevant in one Sunday night business meeting by giving answers and explanations for his actions since arriving at Jax.
So let the detractors of the Watchdog make the issue his anonymity. Let the press make the issue being "throwing of stones" to hurt churches and using technology to harm the church by lying about the church. The issue of this blog is MAC BRUNSON and the lay leaders of our church and the abuses that have occured at FBC Jacksonville - the latest being the issuance of trespass warnings to people they suspect of blogging.
Too bad there were no bloggers when Darrell Gilyard and Bob Gray were committing their abuses at their churches.
"Too bad there were no bloggers when Darrell Gilyard and Bob Gray were committing their abuses at their churches."
The sad thing WD is, when you blogged about Darrell Gilyard, you were attacked by his (Darrell Gilyard) supporters in the comments section here. So even if you were their church member (Darrell Gilyard's) and were blogging about it, you would still be castigated and identified as a trouble maker and given trespass warnings, all for questioning and bringing the issues to light.
The charges against 11:51 are serious and bizarre.
Is the fbcjax leadership identifying 11:51 as WD?
Are they saying he posted comments on this blog? Then what about the "approved" Brunson supporters who are allowed to blog here? Are they given the Pope clemency or pardons before hand they commit the act. Of course they are not slandering the Pope here but supporting him.
What the incident of 11:51 tells me is fbcjax leadership is panicking. If they go after a wife of 11:51 to issues trespass warning and prevent them from attending their daughter sing at a church service, I say:
Shame on you Brunsons and the Yes-Men and Yes-Women. You are not leaders.
Why are they going after bloggers spouses? To intimidate. Mac you are a student of history. Clearly you know this will not work. All your actions so far have been reactions. You have not done one thing pro-active to undercut dissent.
Here is free help for you:
- Since you do not like to blog, why don't you do video blogs? As an example, see what James White does? Granted he is in apolgetics, and your buddy David Allen recently castigated James White as a Hyper-Calvinist, but that is another story. But see how James White defends himself by posting you-tube videos and doing apolegtics.
- Be transparent. Open up fbcjax. Literally. Since you have nothing to fear and you feel WD here is misguided, OPEN up everything to the outside world.
- Please paste this comment on your bathroom mirror. And read it every day. Member Comment. Maybe you will know what it's to be sacrificial.
From the article: "All my ministry I've had people complaining," Brunson said. These newer Web-based complaints are "an old sin of gossip with a new twist."
Too bad Mac cannot be original. That is what they always say when their behind the curtain deeds are questioned and made public.
The new twist is that now the peons have a voice and they don't like it because they cannot control it.
Thy Peace - how very true. When the Gilyard allegations broke over the holidays last year the Watchdog immediately published a few Texas newspaper articles from the 1990's that pointed to Gilyard's sexual abuse from that time period. And boy did the arrows start flying over that mess.
I think what Brumley's article misses is this inescapabe fact: Church's and pastors, especially of the mega church variety, are going to have to deal with the fact that they will be blogged about REAL-TIME on the things they do to people and how they spend money and even the PROCESSES used within the church to make decisions on money and other church business.
What is the answer? How should mega churches respond to this fact that there will be bloggers?
What was the answer to government waste, hidden agendas in govt agencies, nepotism, back-room meetings, and a general low view of local and state government officials?
The answer was transparency and openness. In Florida we call it the Sunshine Law. Not saying that a church's books and meetings should meet that high standard, but certainly, oh say, perhaps bylaws should be read and widely distributed before asking the church to vote on changes. More openness is what is required. Not only will that help congregants trust their leadership, but more importantly it will force trustees to make wiser decisions concerning money and salaries and church discipline if they know their actions may be scrutinized by their church members. Oh, and people might just tend to give more knowing that they can view how all of the dollars are spent by the church.
But FBC Jax can't do that. Mac and his trustees cannot let the church know, for instance, what his TOTAL COMPENSATION PACKAGE IS (salary is just one part of compensation for a mega church pastor - there is car, housing, medical, clothing, etc. etc.) including he and his wife's since our previous pastors' wives did NOT earn salaries. If it were known, a lot of people would be TICKED OFF. Mac says in the article that he doesn't make anywhere near $300,000. I challenge he and his trustees to disclose TOTAL TEAM BRUNSON COMPENSATION, and we would all likely fall off our chairs and we'd again see another deception by Team Brunson in denying the $300,000 "salary" number.
What is Brunson's answer to critical blogs? Not to be more open or to even answer legitimate questions on the blogs. Its to form a discipline committee without telling the church members, then use that committee to FIND OUT WHO THE BLOGGERS ARE OR WHO THEY MIGHT BE SO THAT TRESPASS WARNINGS CAN BE ISSUED.
Absolutely the wrong way to go, fellas. More openness is what is required. And a measure of humbleness by the pastor. Not fear, intimidation, and trespass warnings.
How true Martin. That is the key.
This is a form of communciation over which they have NO CONTROL and it burns them up.
Instead of dealing with the reality of critical blogs by making them irrelevant through openness and transparency, they use gestapo tactics to try to shut them down. Ain't gonna happen.
I have followed this blog for some time. Here's how it comes across to me. Even if you have legitimate concerns, you have negated them by the pettiness and hypocrisy.
You defended anonymity against the charge of cowardice by claiming concern for security. That is the very definition of cowardice. You have had opportunity (and your followers) to vote your conscience and yet you abstain.
And in the previous comment, you hold up the government of Florida as the example of openness in running things? Seriously, Florida government isn't really a model for ethical government.
I would challenge you to blog in a manner that allows for healthy exchange. That can't happen when he hide behind anonymity.
In my humble opinion you are doing your church a real service. Most folk by and do nothing because they either have their heads buried in the sand or feel like a preacher could never really do the things in which you blog about. What they must not understand even preachers are human and face all of the same temptations which everyone else does and when money is thrown in the mix the temptations become even greater. It is hard for them to believe that a preacher would keep doing really stupid things over and over. They want to believe that their "man of God" is perfect and would never fall into these sins you talk about.
These folks need to wake up and smell the roses. I use as an example the cult issue you mention. Is it really the place in any way shape form or fashion to write about that on your church website? We do not have to get into theology here but do these people really think that Mother Teresa was a member of a cult? I thought your church is trying to attract people to come to their church and school and become "giving units" If I read that on a church website I'd run the other way as fast as I could!!
On the issue of anonymity I agree that is a safety concern. I have first hand experience with crazy church members and they will stop at nothing to get rid of folks like the WD. For them it's a form of control. Now that my friends is cult for you. Anyone who tries to even question any form of wrong doing must be a trouble maker. Keep up the good work dog you really are doing your church a great service whether all want to think so or not.
Since Brumley admittedly has read this blog, I wonder if when he was speaking with millionaire Mac he was even slightly curious about the land gift, the nepotism, the A-Group, the comments about Sheri Klouda, Mac's comments he needs to deal harshly with members to "put the fear in God" in other members, why a school is needed downtown right now, how much does Mac make, is Mac's wife on salary too, why did Mac attend only 2 of 7 meetings on the city's task force, what is his housing and auto allowances and retirement and health benefits. Do these all addes up "come close to $300,000?
How does Brumley feel about being lied to? He read the blog, and he knows salary and the school are not the issues. Out of numerous abuses, Mac picks two that bloggers don't really care about. And yet Jeff says nothing? Is that what journalism is all about? Is Jeff a journalist, unbiased, without an agenda? If so, what was his agenda in not at least asking Mac about the many real issues discussed on the blog?
For mega-church pastors, the "housing allowance" by itself is very large. For a $1 million home, Mac's housing allowance is probably at least $5,000 per month, and that's being conservative.
"Housing allowance" for ministers is not considered salary. The Dog is right that you have to look at the total compensation package to get a clear picture. For example, if Mac has a base salary of $200,000 with a housing allowance of $100,000 and insurance and other fringe benefits of $30,000, then it's dishonest for him to claim that he makes nowhere near $300,000. And that doesn't even account for the money paid to Deb and Trey, whose salaries are just a form of additional compensation to Mac since they have no qualifications (unless you consider being related to Mac to be a qualification) to be on staff.
To follow up on Martin's post:
"All my ministry I've had people complaining," Brunson said. These newer Web-based complaints are "an old sin of gossip with a new twist."
Let's see...If people have complained about you the entire time you have been in the ministry, presumably everywhere you have pastored... Have you considered the possibility that there might be a reason for this? And that maybe, just maybe, the problem might not be all these various individual gossippers/bloggers scattered across the nation from NC to TX to FL who refuse to blindly follow the authority of "the pastor"? But that maybe the pastor himself and his approach to ministry is the problem?
Simple logic tells us that if there is a problem and there are two variables (here, the pastor and the congregation), that changing one variable will help determine which variable is the problem. Here, the first variable (the people) has been changed multiple times (every time he's changed churches), but the problem (complaining) has continued to follow him from state to state, per his own words. While it remains possible that he has the unfortunate luck of picking bad congregation after bad congregation, it is certainly unlikely. And when you consider that this sort of "problem" didn't exist in Jacksonville or Dallas prior to his arrival, and ceased to exist in Dallas upon his departure, it sure looks like he is the variable causing the problem -- not the congregations.
Just my thoughts.
It is a sad perversion of scripture at best that this blog exists. Hard to believe that the word of God or His Spirit was even counseled with before starting such ungodly behavior. This is not the way to handle concerns within a church. May God give you peace and a repentant heart.
I don't live in Jax or read the T-U. So, who is Jeff Brumley? Why should I care what he writes? What did his article actually even say? I read it, but I don't get his point.
Jeff, the real question is "What would Jesus WRITE" about why the sheep need to blog about these abusive mega church millionaires in the first place?
Did Mac yell at Jeff, and talk down to him, and criticize our church to him as he has done to us? Or once again, did he USE Jeff for his own poor defense. Don't feel bad about being USED, Jeff. Mac did the same to Paige Patterson and Jerry Vines and Dennis Swanberg. Every chance he gets he has people portray him as a poor, attacked preacher that needs others to defend him. Yet, every week he abuses his congregation and anyone who might have some concerns or questions...all while enriching himself, his family, and his "brand". And yet you feel like he needs defending.
Nice work, Jeff. What's next? An article on how misunderstood Jim Jones and David Koresh were? Maybe a series on Daryl Gilyard and Bob Gray and how poorly they were treated by the police? Sheesh!
And JEFF - talk about being a coward! You don't even put the link of the blog in your article so your readers can get information straight from the source. Afraid they might read the same source as you are?
And Jeff - what other Jacksonville churches are being blogged about? NONE! Why not have an article about "Why is Mac Brunson the only preacher in Jacksonville that has a blog "dogging" him.?"
And Jeff - now that you know that any blogger that is identified will be issued trespass warnings, wouldn't you AGREE that anonymity is necessary when it comes to questioning big, bad, Mac Brunson?
I will look for your follow-up article on these issues. Maybe then your article will be front page of the paper, and not on the Sunday Life section where that type of article belongs.
And you so called "journalists" wonder why BLOGS ARE SO POPULAR! If we relied on you and your writing, we would be so UNINFORMED.
It is my percerption that the trespass warnings were issued to a member who is not in fact the FBC JAX Watchdog. Is this perception correct?
I guess I can take the nonpublishing of this that the DC did target the correct person.
"You defended anonymity against the charge of cowardice by claiming concern for security. That is the very definition of cowardice. You have had opportunity (and your followers) to vote your conscience and yet you abstain. "
Nice try, Frank. These are powerful people who will stop at nothing to maintain their power and nice incomes. I have seen first hand the evil they will perpetuate on those who dare even question them publicly.
You are seeing too but the no trespass warning they put out on someone they 'think' comments on this blog. It does not take much. Next thing you know, the big name powerful celebrity preacher will tell this person's employer lies about them. And we all know everyone believes the big celebrity with power and influence over a nobody. It happens all the time.
Everyone is welcome to check out the charges and information presented here and to believe them or not. If it offends you, don't read here. Or start your own pro Brunson blog. You will be safe to use your own name doing that. :o)
I am sure in Pastor Marks church it is not this way but I was a deacon at FBCD and if someone questioned something the pastor wanted it was ALWAYS said by the "yes men" I can just feel the spirit of Satan in the room. I did not do much questioning because i will be honest I would not have felt safe. When this kind of money is involved people do some really stupid unchristian things all in the "name of the Lord" Keep up the good work dog! It is good to see that people who are not "yes men" have a place to come to get the real story. I know the things that you write about sometime do not seem even possible in a church but there is no question in my mind everything you write about is going on.
Did you attend the service this morning? What did you think about the sermon?
Now I see why First Baptist wants you to register to view their worship services, that way if they can identify you as one of the bloggers they can prevent you from viewing the services online or as in the case of another blogger, interupt the service you are watching online so the pastor can reprimand you.
It is a sad perversion of scripture at best that this blog exists. Hard to believe that the word of God or His Spirit was even counseled with before starting such ungodly behavior. This is not the way to handle concerns within a church. May God give you peace and a repentant heart.
December 7, 2008 12:57 PM
Dear "Pastor" Mitchell,
Go read the last thread for a lively discussion on trying to follow Matthew 18 in a celebrity-dictatorial-pastor-run mega church.
But, I wonder why you are not admonishing Brunson to follow Matthew 18 with the couple they put a no trespass order on. Hmmmm?
Is that the sheeple are getting out of hand? I am sure you are just as adept at dealing with sheeple who question you, too.
Perhaps you had best admonish John for having the nerve to write...oops..."gossip" about Diotrephes in a letter for all to read for 2000 years because he did not practice Matthew 18 first.
Bad behavior and false teaching do not require Matthew 18 before speaking out. One warns about wolves and hirlings any way they can.
"Minister" Sam of the Holy Priesthood.
Who cares if the trespassing thing is about the actual WD or an anonymous blogger??????
It's still wrong,not above reproach,not scriptural,not even kind or taking the high road the way Mac and his mafia team have behaved.
It's so easy for Mac to get people stirred up...(especially when they believe they have "arrived" by being someone Mac includes)....and for them to come on the blog and try and condemn WD.
How about dealing with your own repentance before you order someone else to repent???
Calling someone a coward because they remain anonymous is so old news.
The SG followers did the very same thing....in fact,many times,it appears Mac's followers use the same script.
Be original,guys! You pay the marketing team enough to come up with a new script, don't you??
If WD wants to blog about the his opinions and events at FBJax....he can...even if he leaves the church.
That didn't stop the BBC refugees...even after SG's team fired most everyone who kept us updated.
My goodness...quit showing your insecurity and fear!!! SG kept his job after keeping it a secret from the congregation that a staff minister confessed to child abuse.
Mac's not going to lose his kingdom because he is a control freak and stinks as a pastor and preacher.
This is America and blogs aren't forbidden in the Bible....just the SBC.
Mac should be held to a higher standard than just a little ol member!!!
Relax guys....you have the power!
The more you try and throw it around...the more weak and afraid you show yourself to be.
The person who the trespass warrant was issued against is NOT WD, but is accused of being WD.
You said exactly what many of us wanted to say. Thanks.
The question re the trespass warning being issued to the wrong person was to clarify to the readers.
The zeal to squelch the Dog was misguided and they got the wrong person.
Shall they apologize? Will Brumley be a journalist and really write a story? Probably not, too big a chicken most likely.
Dog you need to upload the church's letter.
With all the latest developments on this blog and at our church, I thought it would be appropriate for me, El Roberto, the Doctor of Discernment, the King of Excellence in Blogging to write in and offer my opinions for everyone to read, as I am the leader of the Brunson supporters, the king of kool-aid.
First, I would like to say thanks to everyone who has rang the Salvation Army bell and is planning on doing so for the remaining of December. We have had a great turnout and your time and service is much appreciated. The Lord will use your time and efforts to bless the needy in our community.
This mornings newspaper article about churches and blogs was great. Good job Jeff Brumley! It was to the point and told the truth and gave credit to whom credit was due. Great article Jeff B.
Watchdog, you complain about the article not addressing the concerns on this blog. Everything does not have to be about you. The purpose behind Jeff's article was not to focus on one blog in particular but to generally speak of churches and blogs and how they coexist and the pros and cons of the blogs. This is why your blog was not discussed in detail. You must have missed the contextual idea while reading the article. Perhaps, you can write Jeff Brumley and convince him to due a piece on just your blog. Maybe there he can go into detail of the inaccurate and false information found on this unregenerative website.
I was also glad to read about the pastors salary. To me, it proved how wrong and inaccurate you are Watchdog when it comes to information and issues. Thank you Pastor Brunson and Jeff Brumley for putting the dog in his place.
If the Watchdog is wrong about the salary, what else does he have wrong on this blog? A lot.
Next point. About the discipline committee and the actions taken towards this church member. The discipline committee acted in a legal and biblical way with this situation. The member contributed to this blog. He slandered, which is illegal. He deserves no sympathy and the actions taken against him are justified. As far as his wife goes, the husband represents his family. He is the head of the household. His actions are reflective upon his family.
It's good to hear that the discipline committee is in full swing.
So that's my post. If it made it through, then I expect full ridicule and clever rebuttles. If it does not, then thank you Watchdog for the opportunity.
Robert L. Peeples
I really feel sorry for you, young man. You have been duped.
The "salary" is not the same as "compensation" when it comes to clergy.
Mac knows it. The trustees know it. But you and Brumley don't know it.
Mac's and Honey's total annual take from FBC Jax is much greater than $300,000.
If that is wrong, I challenge Mac to reveal fully he and his wife's salary, and all of his allowances given to him.
I'm glad you are glad the discipline committee is in "full swing".
I had hope Robert that you had some discernment, but you have just proven otherwise.
Robert P. said, "It's good to hear that the discipline committee is in full swing".
WOW, what a recommendation for a church, or should I say indictment? Makes me not want to go there.
Must be an interesting day in Jacksonville...
I do get real tired of people saying they want "transparency" in churches (especially big ones) and then won't vote in a business meeting or put their names on what they write. In big churches they are run by committees who authorize expenditures. If you don't like it, then find a small church where you "know everything" and can vote on the color of the toilet paper on Wednesday nights.
I can assure you that the people on your Personnel Committee and/or Budget Committee know exactly what Mac makes (including or excluding his forms of compensation.) Pastors also have to pay social security taxes on their housing allowance so don't get so offended.
Your deacons seem to be strangely silent in all of this. That would lead me to conclude that either they are in agreement or are not man enough to stand up against Mac. I am also assuming that all your deacons are men...
I think it was the famous Adrian Rogers who said we are committee led and congregationally approved in their church governance. That means that not every jot and tittle is going to be made public knowledge but that you are trusting men and women on key committees to do their job.
If you don't like that methodology, then go find a church that runs the way that suits you.
psssst....RM....[just between you 'n me....there ain't no finance committee no more...the bylaws were changed and the finance guy and the ass't finance guys who were on the committee are part of the "trustees"....and the trustees are appointed by the pastor....just thought you'd like to know....]
Whether they are trustees or committee members is not the issue. Its whatever your church chooses as their form of governance. That's what your church voted to do and now you need to function that way or find somewhere else to go to church. That's why we live in a country where we have freedom of religion.
I'm not defending any specific kind of church governance but simply saying, if you don't like it--then find a church that you do like.
Personally, I like the way big churches are run. I've spent time in both and I can assure you that the superficial "transparency" of smaller churches is usually just food for the gossips.
Perhaps you are not familiar with the lengths mega churches go to maintain and get good press. They have full time people who work on such things. It is all about appearances when it comes to mega churches and their celebrity pastors.
Any bad press hurts the bottomline and since they have a huge entertainment temple and high salaries to maintain, nickels and noses are of the utmost importance. They court the media and are quite careful about PR.
(Make sure you give more as the economy tightens so Mac can maintain his comfortable life)
"He slandered, which is illegal"
That would be impossible because it was 'written' in a public medium which would make it libel IF it can be proved to be false and it can be proved that person wrote it. Big IF.
I am sure the kool aid drinkers are all being told it was slander. Quite frankly, Brunson is lucky. If the person being accused of this decided to sue for the same then Brunson would be forced to prove these are all lies. That would prove to be embarassing. Can you imagine if his entire compensation package were made public? Would hurt his 'humble' man of God image a bit.
He would look more like Kenneth Copeland without the hair.
But I doubt very seriously if Brunson is stupid enough to go after someone with gravitas and the means to turn this on him. He is smart enough to choose his victims wisely. They always are because they have so very much to lose. Since you are willing to support such a man, your lack of discernment is showing.
Let me help out here.
RM - one of the main beefs here in this blog is that OUR CHURCH GOVERNANCE WAS CHANGED RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES WITHOUT US KNOWING ABOUT IT.
Mac and his trustees changed the bylaws of the church without reading, distribiting, explaining, or discussing NOT ONE SINGLE ASPECT OF THE CHANGES...which included dissolution of the finance committee, expansion of the powers of the pastor and trustees, and formation of the discipline committee.
I know from afar its easy for you to say "just go to another church if you don't like that style of governance." But come on...when the president of the trustees stands before the people on a Wed night, calls for a vote on significant bylaw changes and doesn't read nor explain one single aspect of the changes...that is different than people complaining about how the church is run.
You bring up a good point. Were the by law changes voted on by the congregation?
But come on...when the president of the trustees stands before the people on a Wed night, calls for a vote on significant bylaw changes and doesn't read nor explain one single aspect of the changes...that is different than people complaining about how the church is run.
December 7, 2008 3:56 PM
This is how Mark Driscoll took control of his empire, too, when his other ministers questioned him. Changed the bylaws and ousted the dissenters. The congregation found out afterwards! It is happening all over and the sheeple put all their trust in these demi-gods. They even give them their hard earned money!
I am Big Tuna and I approve this message.
Dog, you are getting ready to have the 100 pound gorilla on your case. I experienced a similar situation some 25 years ago when I experienced "church discipline". Their "discipline" turned a niave innocent kid into a vigilante for justice and I smell justice in the air. Remember, you are dealing with group psychosis at FBC. Some feel if you "attack" the Mac, you are attacking Jesus himself. They will wrap themselves up in a proverbial holy prayer shawl and smite you with holy damnation. You should be so lucky. I still say hire a bunch of winos to paper the parking lots with flyers to advertise the Watchdog.
Ignore the un-holy bible thumpers that will crawl out of the woodwork. They will invoke the name of the lawd, hell fire and damnation on you dog. Stand strong.
I am not anonomous, I am Big Tuna.
I see "RM" has morphed back into his "real self" today. Must have been an imposter the other day.
WD, was this president of the trustees the one who went to Europe with Brunson?
Sam, dude, don't you go near Kenneth Copeland. He has more integrity, revelation and spiritual discernment his pinky than Mac will ever have. You have my righteous dander up bring a true man of God into this discussion. Copeland started and with Gods direction has built KCM into one of the most generous and giving ministries in the world. The question here is Mac has taken over an existing, thriving ministry and is using it to enrich himself. Copeland built KCM from the ground up. Supporters of Kenneth Copeland willingly give into the ministry and approve his lifestyle. Mac is a carpetbagger plundering the work of Dr Lindsay Sr and Jr (and a much lesser extend Jerry V). Whole lot of difference goin on...
Robert Peeples wrote: "I was also glad to read about the pastors salary. To me, it proved how wrong and inaccurate you are Watchdog when it comes to information and issues. Thank you Pastor Brunson and Jeff Brumley for putting the dog in his place. If the Watchdog is wrong about the salary, what else does he have wrong on this blog? A lot."
Robert - how did Jeff's article and the pastor's lie about his salary and benefits package "PROVE" the WD wrong? Doesn't is just prove that Mac is a Clintonesque liar and Jeff failed to follow-up with a simple question to clarify?
And did the article prove the nepotism doesn't exist? Or that no land gift of a $307K piece of land was given by J.D. Collins to Mac and Debbie personallay only 3 weeks after they arrived for "love and affection?"
Wow. I guess if I "led" a congregation of thousands of people as gullible as you, I would be as bad as Mac and use my position to enrich myself, my brand, and my family until enough people wised up.
Without gullible people like you, the Mac Brunson's of the world would be out of a job.
And I am glad the WD "proved this." Way to go WD.
It was the head of the finance committee, er I mean the Trustee/Head Finance person, since there is no finance committee anymore. He met up with Mac over in Italy the week after they asked us to fork over a cool million to pay for facility repairs. Must be nice!
Anon 2:15, yes, great service today. Enjoyed the references to slander, and particularly enjoyed the hypocrisy of Mac pointing out the sins of Swaggart and Dobson's sidekick. Mac used these guys as examples of public figures who have been poor witnesses for Christ through their behavior. But Mac has the big ole plank sticking out of his eye as he mentions these two - as Mac has piled up a list of ethical problems here at Jax. Mac I think ultimately will do more to damage the cause of Christ in Jacksonville than he could ever imagine. Our church continues to great things for the Lord, but its IN SPITE OF the Team Brunson takeover and the new church governance in the bylaws and the jobs for Brunson and family.
I also enjoyed the Soles for Souls guy, but the patting of his back by Trey of how great this guy is (which he is, but come on Trey, why the sucking up? Why not just let the guy come up and speak?) was just a bit too much. Not to be critical, but just want to point out that Maurilio is the consultant (he called him his "publicist" today) for soles for souls. Maurilio has his fingers in many things related to our church. Go Maurilio!
If you go to www.guidestar.org, you can see that the CEO of Soles4Souls makes $268,000 a year in salary and benefits. While we could certainly debate whether the head of a non-profit should make that much money, I think we should commend Soles4Souls for their transparency. (Though they are legally required to make this information public.)
Mac should likewise make his compensation public.
General question: Almost all churches have low-income members. Is it right to ask a single mother making $25K to give money to the church so that the pastor can make six figures and live in a $1 million home?
Wayne Elsey earns $265,500 as the CEO of "Soles for Soules", and Kevn G the COO earns $85,000, and Paul W earns $108,000 as the president of outreach, and Marion W earns $44,000 as the outreach operations. There is also another $390,000+ in salaries paid to other employees.
This blog is not about soles for souls, but I just want to point out that there is HUGE money to be made in Christendom...CEO salaries can be made by pastors like Mac Brunson, and also by the heads of charitable 501(c)3 organizations.
Here's a thought:
When Jesus returned to the upper room where the disciples had gathered the first time. Did Jesus tell the disciples to go take a letter to Doubting Thomas and tell him he could not come there again, as, he was sewing discord among the brethren, claiming they were all lying about the resurrection and this could cause division?
How about Peter when approached by a maid by the fire? Did the assembly send out a letter to Peter and his family for HIS cursing and for denying that he even knew the Lord? And in the letter, telling Peter not to return again to the place of worship.
When Demas left Paul, did Paul instruct Titus to send DEMAS a letter denying FURTHER access to the assembly?
When all forsook Paul, did Paul instruct Titus to track all of them down and send them letters not to come back to the place of worship?
Titus 17: "Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me". NOTICE EVERYONE ELSE HAD DESERTED PAUL...but not the LORD...... "and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion". JESUS IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A FRIEND THAT STAYS CLOSER THAN A BROTHER!!!!
FBC has always been the church of the "OPEN DOOR". Who has changed this policy? Did they(WHOMEVER THEY ARE) pray over such a change. Who thought of this new direction FOR THE CHURCH to take for the glory of God, for the door to be closed to a certain person or group, especially in this manner?
I would like to hear from someone among the Trustees that was a part of this and how it was concluded this process was for the betterment of the church and its members. In particular, what was their thinking CONCERNING THE ACTIONS JESUS WOULD HAVE TAKEN UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Or was this DC just thrown in due to some problems going on in other churches throughout the country? I'll be waiting along with the other bloggers for one of you Trustees to give us the answer. Or better yet, Mac or Jim, could you furnish us the information?. I think we could all learn from this presentation of the gospel!!!!Also, please note chapter and verses.
Dr.Dog.......WORSE and WORSE.....Brunson is nothing but a FRAUD acting out what he thinks it means to be a pastor....He lords the position over the Lord's sheep as though they belong to him clearly against the direction of the Scriptures[1Pet.5:1-3]....This guy is not going to change because he believes he is right and everybody else is wrong...Brunson believes that he is being persecuted for serving Christ when in fact he is abusing and fleecing the faithful.....I watched on TV his sermon about Joseph from last week and his feign attempt at being emotionally overcome by the story....RIDICULOUS....This guy is a piece of work....I also read Brumley's story in the paper,an as expected he wouldn't dare tell the truth and the true reason for this blog....Too all you people who believe Brunson and his henchmen can be approached with civility....The proof is in the handling of the falsely accused members wife....I repeat no TRUE MAN of God would rape a Church for multiple hundreds of thousands dollars to preach the glorious Gospel in which supposedly he has been called and compelled to proclaim....BRUNSON IS A HIRELING PLAIN AND SIMPLE...Take away his money and you'll see just how committed to Jesus Christ and the Gospel he really is......WORSE AND WORSE Dr.Dog.... WORSE AND WORSE!!!!!!
Good to hear from you, It Is Written.
WD, it appears from the picture on your post, that Mac is about to be guillotined.
Readers: Ken Copeland is a false teacher. Besides that, if you want to pay for his spreading of the Name it claim it gospel with his and her Lear jets, keep sending your money to him.
it is written, I agree with your infamous definition "WORSE and WORSE."
Our pastor today said, in his opinion, we (Americans) are just one generation away from having our religious privileges and rights denied. Judging actions such as the DC at FBCJ and other churches, the process is already taking place and we can expect more of the same, unless this ungodly trend is reversed, which I doubt as committees such as a DC serve to empower those individual egos to the point they become dizzy with power.
Yo Robert - if the reason why the wife was banished from the church was because the husband is the head of the family, then why wasn't the dude's daughter also banned? It looks like two trespass warnings - one for Mr. Blogger, one for the wife accused of "associating' with Mr. Blogger. None for the kiddos. Maybe they should, huh, Robert? Make the wife and kiddos PAY for the 'sins' of the father. Come on discipline committee, crank it up into high gear! Get rid of those kids who associate with Mr. Blogger! Committee, you've got a fan in Robert! Let's get Robert a "Discipline Committee" t-shirt that he can sport around the church!
Seriously, who ever, EVER would think that a member of a church would express glee over a discipline committee "getting rolling".
Only disciples of Mac Brunson.
Our pastor today said, in his opinion, we (Americans) are just one generation away from having our religious privileges and rights denied.
Earth to fbcjax leadership:
You have already done this, in case you do not remember. Please check comments posted with articles of other pastors who disagree with you and your actions.
The ironic aspect of last election, with Obama winning the Presidency and the state of economy, from current news reports and analysis ... Guess What? Obama is becoming more conservative in NOT taxing the upper class till 2011 or later. And he is willing to spend (just as Bush) lot of public money to jump start this economy.
It's helpful to remember we are ALL Americans first. Sorry. We are actually citizens of the kingdom of God first.
Folks, there is an economic tsunami taking place currently. Last month the floor literally dropped on ALL consumer spending. No one know how all this will play out in the next year.
What ever is happening at fbcjax now, will be overrun with economic factors.
It's time we pray and trust Our Lord Jesus Christ to deliver us. It's time for each of us to show mercy and love to our brothers and sisters in Christ.
WD - Many years ago I had a disagreement with Dr. Vines and was offended by him. He learned of this, picked up the phone, called me, and spoke with me personally. His humble nature, and willingness to apologize for his words, was very telling. He did not act as an arrogant CEO, or as a man who owed me no explanation. He humbly, and lovingly I might add, called me personally and spoke with me. He did not reprimand me for being offended. In short, he was, and is, the real deal. I never spoke harshly about Dr.Vines again. But, Mac is an imposter and brings more criticism on himself. He sends others to contact members and we know he NEVER once counseled Sheri Klouda, who was a sheep in his Dallas congregation.
So, in my humble opinion, Mac is either too arrogant to call up or visit with a member who differs with him; or he is a coward and a bully who sends other men who are respected to do his dirty work. (Like Paige Patterson and Vines did in sermons, and his discipline committee has done here.)
What is this man so afraid of? Why is he so insecure? Is it because his deeds testify against him and he is without defense. Or maybe he never became that lawyer he wanted to be since he couldn't handle man to man confrontation? (or maybe law school was too tough for him?)
Come on Mac. Call Sheri Klouda and apologize. Call any of us you believe to be harming your ministry and talk to us, pastor. Don't secretly form committees to do your duty work. Be the man you are in the pulpit when you are abusing your humble sheep. Or are you afraid to speak with a man the way you speak to all of us in your sermons?
WD and others - as a member of the "210", I respectfully demand that my pastor, Mac Brunson, contact this family that was accused and apologize to the wife and lift the trespass warning against her. Then, he needs to sit with the man accused and explain what the accusations are based on and discuss reconciliation with that man, if in fact the accusations are true. If the man refuses to listen, Mac should return with another brother and see if they can reason with the accused man. If this still doesn't work, then the committee can get involved, but a copy of the by-laws should be provided to the member first to explain the process and powers of the committee.
What do you all think about his request? Should I email it to the other 209?
You won't find a trustee coming on this blog. They can't back up what they are doing and they know it. They just like being part of the "in crowd".
What I don't understand is how most of these same trustees and deacons that served under Dr. Lindsay and professed by their attendance, service, and continued membership, to agree with his preaching of the Word, can in anyway, follow and support anything coming from FBCJ today.
Anonymous 9:24. I like your style. Yes, by all means send it to the other 209 and anyone else that may be a deacon.
After John 3:16 Conference hosted by Jerry Vines, there was lot of friction caused by David Allen's comments about labeling some theologians as Hyper-Calvinists. It also seemed lot of Calvinists were offended.
David Miller wrote a brusque letter to Jerry Vines, which I posted earlier. In reply to him, Jerry Vines replied this:
Dear Brother David,
I did not receive your email directly. It was passed on to me by David Allen. I have sent my reply to you at this email address. I hope it is sent to the correct place.
First, let me thank you for coming to the conference. It was a real joy for me to see you again after a number of years. I’m sure we could have a really good time discussing what has transpired in our life and ministry through these years. As I said to you Thursday night, you preached the greatest sermon I have ever heard on the inerrancy of Scripture.
I won’t attempt to reply to everything in your letter. You certainly have a right to your evaluations and opinions. I guess those who were not in attendance will have to get the CDs and judge for themselves.
I’m sorry my message was so boring. To be perfectly frank with you, I have bored myself by my own sermons too often through the years! One thing which you and I certainly agree: Richard Land’s nap was the humorous highlight of the conference!
I feel no breach in fellowship with you. I love you, thank God for you and am not at all disturbed that you take a different view from me. I would ask you to love me, pray for me and count me a brother who dearly loves you.
In our Saviour’s love,
You can access the whole article from which this letter was pulled from here. To get a taste of the whole mess, please read here.
I do not know Jerry Vines. But he appears to come across as a normal person and with a sense of humor.
15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
1. Bloggers here can send/deliver trespass warnings to the members of FBCJ's discipline committee and leader team, too;
2. Members of Baptist churches should sit near enough to the platform in their auditoriums that their preachers can see the whites of their eyes when they preach to/about them on Sundays--and those preachers should be men enough to say the same things to the members individually in the hallways of the church later (it takes guts to be a minister of the gospel; some guys hold the title only--they don't have the courage which must accompany the position, and those guys encourage each other when they meet);
3. Nonprofit CEO's may make huge salaries if their boards permit them--and if their constituents perpetuate the possibility by funding it; don't;
4. Ministers' salaries can be divided into "housing" and what's left over after that designation, and each is taxable; if megachurch pastors deserve 6-figure salaries, then bi-vocational pastors--who do much more every week--deserve 9-figure salaries.
WD and Readers:
In BaptistLife forums, there are some that are relevant to fbcjax:
Church to sniff out take legal action against bloggers?
FBC Jax declaring war on Roman Catholics?
FBC Ocala: Exhibit A...
Sammy old man, why do you say things you obviously are not knowledgeable of. Copeland flys a Cessana Citation X. Big difference between that and a Lear, (which was purchased debt free by his supporters willing donations). Copeland has given away 28 airplanes to other ministries. My uncle is a chaplain in the Texas prison system and has said many times that there is not another ministry in the US that has been as generous and giving as the Copelands to prisoners and the prison system. KCM (like FBC use to be)is 100% debt free. Most Baptist churches don't have the faith to wait on God without incurring debt.
Stay away for slandering others you obviously know little about.
Have you folks viewed the trespass notices?
I wonder what may the provisions be in our bylaws for bringing the discipline committee members before a discipline committee for the sin of violating the bylaws and violating Matt 18 in issuance of tresspass notices to those accused of blogging - and certainly for the sin of violating Matt 18 and other scriptural precepts in issuing a trespass notice for "associating" with her husband who is accused of blogging?
Who shall discipline the discipline committee?
I have been devastated by the trespass notice I received on the eve of Thanksgiving.I am the wife of the accused member. I was banned from the property just because I am his wife.I am not a blogger, I am just associated with my husband who is accused. And the sad thing is that, nobody even called me , the just dropped a letter at my home.I have been a faithful member of this church for about 20 years, working in about every children,youth and women's ministry. For many years, I worked in up to three ministries for the lack of workers.I love FBC, its people and its ministries.FBC has been like my second family, and it so sad that I have been banned from it when I have done nothing wrong. I have had to resign on my current ministries . What hurt me the most is that I wasn't even allowed to come in and watch my chid's performance a few weeks ago. This is just so unfair to me, and I am so disappointed at the men of the church.I just wonder what my good friend, Shirley Lindsey would say about all this. But My God is in control and great thins are ahead for me and my family as we move on. My God is faithful, especially to those who serve him.
10:50am To answer your question: GOD.
To accused bloggers wife: Sometimes there are truly blessings in disguise. This same situation minus a committee and a blog., happened to us in the past.
These people are not worth your time. I know how it hurts to lose your God given abilities of service. It will take a while to see through this pain. But, you will get on the other side of it. This group is not worthy to have you in their midst. God bless you dear one, you will hear "well done good and faithful servant".
If Shirley were here, the accused blogger's wife could call her and I guarantee Shirley would call this discipline committee and demand these warnings be lifted. But since Ms. Shirley is no longer here, any chance Debbie Brunson takes it upon herself to stand in defense of this lady? Doesn't Deb Brunson care about the treatment of women in her church? Please, Deb Brunson, use your position and influence to defend the cause of your sister in Christ.
Deb - are you listening? Are you reading? Are you being informed? Do you care? Are you Christmas shopping at the Town Center? Where are you in all of this? A lady in your church is being mistreated by your church's disipline committee and you do nothing? Come on Deb, earn that salary and show that you indeed can contribute something positive to our church. Your silence speaks volumes about you!
To the wife of the accused blogger. I would tell you to appeal the discipline committee's unsupported and unauthorized trespass warnings, but who would hear the appeal?
Plus, do you really want to go back there now? Imagine how quickly they have spread horrible lies about you and your family, and others will quickly accept what they are told since it comes from such bigshots in the church.
In their efforts to silence dissent, they have ended up harming one of their faithful ladies. Their actions towards you are much worse than the act of blogging. At least thousands will be reading about this on this blog, and even if they disagree with the blog, they now are confronted with the fact that their church leadership treated a fellow member this way. The court of public opinion will not be kind to those men that delivered that letter, nor to those men that signed it.
I don't think she will help. Its likely that she knew the trespass warnings were issued. No way those warnings were issued without Mac approving it, and if he approved it you better believe he ran it by his wife, the one Mac called "the bulldog with lipstick" and the one who Mac said is "more sensitive to the Holy Spirit". I wonder if Deb offered any help to Sheri Klouda when Sheri was going through her ordeal at SWBTS? Hmmmm....
FBC Jax Watchdog - as a young women, I am outraged at this treatment by my church and would like to know who I can email about this? Please publish the names of the discipline committee and the two men that delivered the letter. I already know A.C. Soud and David Bristow are two of the six on the letter since you indentified their positions at church. Who else? And who delivered the trespass warning letter to you and your wife?
Perhaps the wives of the discipline committee should be served with cease and desist orders from associating with their ungodly, impious spouses. They are guilty by association, just as the discipline committee took it upon themselves to punish the accused's wife also.
Better still, why not have large signs printed and placed outside their homes to let everyone know who they are and what their husbands have done? Perhaps some of the neighbors just might think twice about associating with them. Don't you think the committee has already caused irreparable damage to an innocent bystander? How much did the wives know about the events, bet they knew ahead of time and thus are associated.
Watchdog: you haven't published anything else I've said, but I'm going to ask this again...are you really going to let an innocent person take the fall for what you have done assuming they have gotten the wrong person? And since I believe they have gotten the RIGHT person, why are you not now standing behind your many many words in this blog and running to hide behind the anonymity cloak? Why don't you meet with this committee and stand up for what you have said this many many months? Every time I read your "charges" against Mac Brunson they look weaker and weaker and weaker. Is that why you won't stand up for your many months of blogging? Is is becoming obvious to you too? Its like the getting kicked out of church is the least of the things that could have happened to you for going on and on with this blog. Maybe its GOD trying to stop you, and some of us other blabbermouths also. You were affecting the way people thought about First Baptist, myself being one of those people I am ashamed to say. YOU WERE HAVING AN AFFECT....including helping me leave the church, after just having gone back to a church after 15 years. Was that right of you? Now if they have the wrong person, to that person I say this...for crying out loud why aren't YOU meeting with the committee and proclaiming your innocence far and wide especially if your wife is involved?
And to the wife...why move on, why not MEET with the committee? Solve your problems where they are, they follow you wherever you go. Don't move on, try to RESOLVE the problem. Talk to the committee. If they got the wrong people, that is really wrong.
There are times when a blog like this WOULD have been right, such as in the case of Gilyard and Gray, especially if the church wouldn't listen to reason as it seems neither Shiloh or Trinity ever did until forced to. But the "abuses" of Mac Brunson....well, where is the "real dirt"? There never was any, thats the problem with this blog, and thats the issue in my opinion with your anonymity. If you think what was done at First Baptist was SO BAD...stand behind it. If not, then it IS time to go elsewhere, and WAS time to go elsewhere a long time ago. Which some of us asked you many times on here...why don't you just go somewhere else?
Just trying to give another opinion. Jesus wouldn't blog by the way, He writes books...you know like the one no one follows who says they are believers. Why would He waste His time blogging too?
Gabby - you're Robert in drag, right?
If not, you and he need to get together. You would make a perfect pair.
Meet for a tall cool glass of Cherry Kool Aid.
I'm a queen, but not a drag queen...I don't know Robert so can't speak for him.
Gabriella - why should anyone, blogger or not, meet with a discipline committee that has no power or authority over them except what is given them in the By-laws? And until an accused member sees those by-laws, they have no obligation to submit themselves to some kangaroo court of yes men who would try and abuse women and their children.
It seems the committee has overstepped its boundaries, abused its authority, and has not followed Matthew 18.
And why don't you email Mac and ask him the same questions: Why hasn't HE called this accused member, or met with him?
And don't forget the obvious, Mac and the committee have all the power here, not the defenseless church member and his wife who have been accused. And you wouldn't even know about their actions without this blog.
So whether they have the "right" guy is not the issue. They have abused their power in accusing and banning this family, and now they are the ones that must support their accusations and provide the by-laws. Until they do that, they are the cowards and the ones that are out of line in all of this. Can't you see that?
FYI - the discipline committee is now realizing they accused the wrong man. They are trying to double check their sources now and figure out for themselves how unreliable their information turned out to be; or how they could have drawn the wrong conclusions. My guess is they now realize their efforts to gang up on and intimidate bloggers has failed and they are curiously silent now.
The blogging continues, the Watchdog keeps attending, and this poor accused family has been wronged and hurt. Nothing was accomplished except the integrity and witness of the committee members was compromised and the staff that delivered the letter were made fools of. They know it, and all that read this blog know it. Not a Christ-like way to deal with long time members. On that, we ALL can agree.
WD: Are not the members owners of all the church property? If so, how can any member not be allowed to enter his own premises? Maybe he/she ought to see an attorney and get their portion of their property back!! That would be all they have given to the church over the last twenty years plus what percentage they own of said mutual property. What protection is there in the bylaws that prevent someone from protecting their interest in mutual property just because some trustee or pastor decides they don't like or appreciate their service or stand on certain issues or events. What if the pastor and trustees just decide to give everyone a letter. Does that mean they are the only owners. Is there anything in the bylaws regarding dissolving the church or selling the property to move to another location. Is there anything in the deed that allows the trustees to sell or convey title without the approval of the entire congregation or the majority who votes one particular business night. Or does a majority vote by the trustees permit their selling church assets. This could get real nasty if push comes to shove.
I also thought there was a seperation of church and state according to the Texas court. Are the Florida courts any different? How can the city police have jurisdiction in an eccelessatical matter. Seems strange to use the city police to affect any member who has not been furnished any proof of infractions and has not been told who their accuser are. And the members have no idea of such practice. What if the members liked the member more than their pastor and decided he was to go rather than the member? What then? Normally, a judge has to issue tresspass warning particularly to one who has partial ownership of said property. I can see a non-member being subject to removal but not a member unless he/she is causing a riot or rebellion. Just thinking. Who actually owns the church property?
Also, There may be legal issues in preventing someone from attending a business meeting. Check Robert's Rules of Order Revised.
Has it occured to anyone that maybe the Lord let these high flyers make fools out of themselves so that everyone else can see the type of men that they are. God does deal with each person where they are. If these men think they can harm people and get away with it, maybe God will teach them a lesson.
If this ungodly committee should see their error and apologize to this family I hope this family will not be too quick to forgive them. Because these same people have hurt others in the past on orders from a preacher and gotten away with it. Its time they looked in the mirror to see what they have become.
On her own blog last week gabriella422001 said...
"I have decided, with getting a little perspective this weekend on the subject, that i am going to go back to church there, not as a member. I am going to quit reading that blog, which i actually do think has a satanic undertone to it, because who can live up to constant scrutiny of their actions, including that watchdog whoever he is, who MUST be THE MOST JUDGMENTAL human being in the WORLD. I will NEVER go to counseling in a place where i go to church again. I will ALWAYS try to go somewhere where i don't attend church, and definately where there is a DOCTOR on staff who can help with the medication which has also played a HUGE ROLE in my quitting church, because my moods rise and fall on the medications i am on."
I would suggest you do as you said you would - stop reading this blog and GET HELP! You sound paranoid delusional. (That's just my armchair diagnosis.)
7:12pm. You are so right. Hey anyone there going to counseling. Don't go. Get into your Bible, as Jesus calms all your fears, forgives you of all sin, and promises to never leave you. Counselors can do none of these.
You sound paranoid delusional.
Anon, we all are. Including Mac, his supporters, and yes me too.
For whatever reasons, Gabriella has chosen to write her comments in opposition to WD. But in the past she has some times agreed with WD.
I would encourage both Mac's supporters and others to help this lady. All of us at time seem to fall in dire straights. Out of Christian Charity please help.
I would also remind all of you that what actually threw this lady off of attending fbcjax was the word Banned stamped on her emails to the counseling center at fbcjax.
I can count on consistency by anonymous posters. Attacking a woman who dares to question your blogs. Shameful and very ungodly.
An incorporated congregation owns property as a corporation; the members of the church don't own the property--in whole or in part--individually.
If FBC's leaders actually were as intelligent as has been said in earlier threads at this site, this matter wouldn't stand where it does today. Clearly, they violated FBC's previous bylaws--there's NO WAY that didn't happened, from the description provided about it; additionally, they've misidentified another innocent church member as the Watchdog and trespassed onto that member's property in order to deliver a warning which actually has no legal basis (the member probably has a case against the leaders for slander, and probably for libel). The swooshing sound audible now is those leaders all back-pedaling as fast as they can in the opposite direction! The innocent member shouldn't do anything at all except to sit on his front porch waiting for the same leaders to return with their hats in their hands begging for his forgiveness.
It's almost as if FBC has taken a vacation or sabbatical from the work of God's kingdom; its preacher can't preach with a clear conscience, its elected leaders and staff must be suspicious of most of their fellow-members and unable to lead them, and the members who are aware of the difficulties probably have ground to a halt in terms of their personal ministries and maybe their giving. Three congregations have formed from one: those agreeing with this blogsite, the elected leaders and those who agree with them, and the members who are unaware of happenings. And the whole thing is becoming a case study in church conflict which will be discussed by others for a long time to come.
10:54 You are so correct, however, there is a fourth group. Those on the outside. And what are they thinking? If this is being a Christian, and if this is what preachers are about, I'll pass. It is a sad and a tragic thing that has happened to this assembly. But, these things happen when the leaders cannot take criticism. Or indeed when a preacher is not a called man of God. What is so strange is that Christians are to judge Angels. Well, yes, in their glorified bodies but never in these current sinful ones.
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