Yesterday we saw how Mac Brunson tweeted a bible verse to insinuate that Jim Smyrl has betrayed Brunson in leaving FBC Jax, that Smyrl has "raised his heel" against Brunson to start a church plant in Jacksonville.
Now we see that on the same day, Brunson's son, Trey Brunson, who is the Director of Special Projects (or something like that), took a few cheap shots at Smyrl via Twitter:
Yep, Smyrl is bitter. And Trey gives a warning to those of you who dare to follow Smyrl to his new church, you'll become bitter as well.
How ironic. Who is the bitter one? Is it Smyrl, who has decided to move on and start a new church plant, or Smyrl's old boss and his son who are posting on social media attacking the motives and the heart of a guy starting a new church plant in Jacksonville?
I don't see Smyrl posting tweets about Mac or Trey or John Blount or anything First Baptist Church. He is moving on. But the Brunsons have to get their shots in at Smyrl and warn those who follow him that they, like Smyrl, will become bitter.
Then Trey posted this one, invoking the name of our Florida Baptist Convention Executive Director, Dr. John Sullivan:
Yes, as the son of Mac Brunson, you get very connected, you get to speak to Dr. John Sullivan and learn valuable ministry lessons. Then, you can tweet about them to call a fellow minister "bitter", "jealous", and even "lazy".
Again, it is painfully obvious who the bitter ones are. Based on Mac's and Trey's tweets, it is the Brunsons, not Jim Smyrl.
We're still waiting for A.C. Soud to chime in, perhaps to call Smyrl a "coward". That is what they do at FBC Jax to those who cross the hot shots at FBC Jax: publicly call them bitter, jealous, angry. And lazy. Perhaps John Blount will call for a deacon's meeting and propose a resolution condemning those who do what Smyrl did. Then they can get the church to stand and vote on it after Soud reads it from the image screens. But the Wed crowds are so small they could hardly have a quorum.
Trey did delete the above tweets from his Twitter account, but as anybody knows, once you tweet something it is viewable forever to those who follow Twitter accounts via Google Reader.
So why do I bother posting these? I want Christians who follow these so called mega church "men of God" and their families to realize they can be as mean and ugly and spiteful - or more so - as anybody else in the church. They are not priests, prophets, or "men of God". They are men who guard their turf and their wealth and who are not afraid to use their power to unleash it and bring harm on those that cross them. Brunson did it to me in the newspaper calling me terrible names. He did it to Dr. Sheri Klouda mischaracterizing her deposition testimony in her lawsuit against Paige Patterson. And now against Smyrl. He has done it to FBC Jax as a whole, saying he never got a honeymoon when he came to FBC Jax.
And now we see even family members of the "men of God" will take cheap shots. My wife and I saw it right in our faces during Deb Brunson's deposition in the JSO lawsuit - the hatred and vitriol she had toward me was unlike anything I had ever experienced. Too bad, Smyrl's kids have to read that their former pastor and his son are using social media to take cheap shots at their dad. Surely Blount won't go to the JSO and accuse Smyrl's wife of church misconduct to get a trespass warning, will he?
And I'm sure Smyrl knows: if they're saying this on Twitter, you can only imagine what they are whispering in the ears of the deacons and their wives.
And lastly, I have to say that Trey inferring in his Tweet that Dr. Jim Smyrl is "lazy" is just plain laughable. Smyrl is a graduate of Clemson [correction, not a graduate of Clemson], and has a Ph.D. from an accredited seminary. Smyrl has started a ministry developing bible curriculum to teach lay people to teach the bible, and has preached all over the world, and now has the audacity to start a church plant. Trey? A Bachelor's degree from a small bible college who for five years has ridden his dad's coattails as the Director of Special Projects at his dad's church.
I'm sorry Trey, but you can't carry Smyrl's proverbial jockstrap.
Will those who go to Smyrl's new church be bitter as Trey says? No, perhaps they'll be better.
And using Trey's logic, those still following Brunson and Family at FBC Jax might become the bitter ones.
93 comments:
Dr Smyrl does not charge for the Bible curriculum he has written. Anyone can download it from LHM totally free. To me, that shows a heart to minister and disciple people and leave the financial provision to God. I don't see any warnings from Smyrl that if you don't give to his ministry you are the reason bad things have happened in world etc.
I've notice, John Sullivan's name being thrown around quite a bit from the Brunsons. At one time I had respect for Sullivan but I realize he is in the think of the mess at FBC and I no longer feel the same. John Sullivan may swallow their pity stories but the members don't.
As for both Brunson's - they love to throw darts, both of them are arrogrant & riding on the coat tails of the people who tithe to the church. Both have big mouths and can't keep them shut.
Smyrl won't lower himself to retaliate with tweets, etc. He's moved on from the comedians at FBCJ.
It seems like churches today, old and new, are mostly just moving Christians around with little net effect. That will probably be the case here as well.
As far as cowards go...why not just tweet what you think?
Why must Mac use a bible verse to say he was betrayed? Does that make him more spiritual?
Why can't Trey just call Smyrl bitter? Why must he put a quote from John Sullivan in a tweet to do that? Why invoke John Sullivan's name?
Come on guys, speak for yourselves, stop using the bible and quotes from powerful men to take swipes at people you don't like.
Amen. The important lesson here is if you once cross the leaders (even though you are best buds with the leaders before this incident), you are tagged as divisive, hater and bitter. This is as plain as plain can be.
Anyone that knows the Brunson.s KNOW they use others voices to do their dirty work to make their point, even down to using scripture verses. As one of our wise brothers in the past said "worse & worse:.
“Times have changed.”
Reminds me of a story but then again almost everything does. Now to understand the story you have to know and or remember a time when cars had bench seats and not center consoles so that a passenger could sit right up next to the driver. Anyway back to the story.
Husband and wife are driving down the road when the wife turns to her husband and says, “Honey, remember when we were dating we used to be so close. When we would be driving like this I would cuddle up with you real close and you’d have your arm around me. I always felt so loved and appreciated. Why don’t we do that anymore?
Husband turns to the wife and tells her Yes I remember it was nice but ah dear who moved?
Yes times have changed but not necessarily for the better.
If you believe people, all people young and old, do not want hymns and Bible preaching anymore then you simply are not listening, you have closed your heart, mind, eyes and ears to the truth.
Dr Smyrl ought to take the high road and send an open letter to FBC asking them to support the new church start. Invite them to partner with them in this kingdom work. They desire to do a work in Jax with thousands of lost people. Plenty of them to go around to fill a hundred new churches.
If Smyrl won't do it, WD should as a blog post...
I think its time for the church to start a new search committee to look for a new pastor and make it mandatory the he will not put any of his family on staff.
I'm still stunned by the use of a "no compete clause" when it comes to spreading the gospel.
I'm still stunned that churches allow their pastors to advertise luxury vacation cruises on the church website. There is so much wrong with that it is hard to know where to start.
Oh well, give the people what they want.
WD, again I have to say thank you for being a watchmen on the wall. Keep sounding out the warnings.
What will break these hearts, that the kingdom is first above all. We have NO proprietary interest in the Church, it is indeed HIS. We own nothing, we're just to be humble gardeners.
I like what Wishihadknown said:
If you believe people, all people young and old, do not want hymns and Bible preaching anymore then you simply are not listening, you have closed your heart, mind, eyes and ears to the truth.
I could not agree more. Thanks to both of you. Garlando
"Bitterness/Jealousy & laziness are the top 2 killers of ministry"
Bitterness and Jealousy and Laziness are '3' very different issues, NOT '2'.
Hmmmm...Dr Sullivan and Trey must not be very good with basic math either!
Watchdog you don't have all the info you think you have.
I disagree with the Brunson tweets as you do.
But Jim leading this church plant in this manner smells up the place.
Jim is a good preacher, but its not like he is some headliner either.
And just because Akin is helpful to give LHM does not mean he endorses this divisive nonsense.
Smyrl should have taken time off and sought a route that was not as divisive.
May be that Dr. Smirl has also grown tired of the history lessons instead of a sermon on sundays.
I am glad to see he recognizes the need for a real preacher instead of one with tickling ears.
Go Smirl. I will certainly visit your church!
Does Rev. Smirl use the non-inspired version Brunson uses or is he a KJV preacher?
Anon 4:01-
Really, that is your number 1 main concern here. A church is on the verge of splitting and you want to know version they use?
Go to Trinity Baptist and you won't have to worry about it!
Kyl
Anon 3:40
I have all the info that I think I have. And I don't have any of the info that I do not have.
Never said that Akin endorses Smyrls actions or church. Just noted that Smyrl leaving is not like Clifton leaving. The dynamics of those on his board and and those who have endorsed him, along with his declaration of saying his church will be in the SBC, and being supported by a Tennessee church, makes his departure very, very interesting.
I don't think very many will leave FBCJ to follow Smyrl. But you never know!
And your use of the word "headliner" is quite interesting. And Brunson is a headliner?
I will say that Smyrl can preach circles around Brunson. Brunson is a story teller, a historian, and he is good at theatrics. Brunson could be an actor. He has his soft prayer voice and humble demeanor when he needs it, and he is the angry tyrant on stage stomping around when he needs to be.
And don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of Smyrl. I wouldn't join his church for anything. He comes from the Paige Patterson mold.
Here is a question for those of you going to Smyrl's meeting Thursday, for you to ask Smyrl:
Please tell us, Jim, what happened at the church or churches that you pastored just prior to coming to FBC Jax? He has preached about trouble he had with lay people there, and he should be transparent with the folks Wed night about his experience as a senior pastor.
"Smyrl should have taken time off and sought a route that was not as divisive.
July 9, 2011 3:40 PM"
I am sorry but why? 1st Jax will always see it as divisive since it may take church members away from 1st Jax. There would never be a good time to start accoding to MB. For it to be "less divisive" would mean he would have to go to another city far away from 1st Jax, then they may be happy. I say go for it. The more churches the merrier.
Watchdog,
"He comes from the Paige Patterson mold."
That may be true, but by becoming a mean, nasty, Calvinist--he just broke the mold.
Jonathan (a Calvinist)
Yo Watchdog I think Symrl actually graduated from a small Bible college too and that he is just a Clemson fan. You might want to double check that.
He does have a PhD. But it is in preaching. Not NT, OT, Languages, or Systematics, Church History... I think you get my point. Most PhD's of any weight come from other institutions than seminaries, unless it is a Duke, Harvard etc.
Just giving a s survey of the scene.
His PhD. serves only in a church or a very limited range of seminaries. Its not heavy duty.
I recall that he did attend Clemson, but I could be wrong. I was going on my memory of his sermons talking about Clemson.
Sorry, don't know much about the rankings of PhDs at seminaries. To me a PhD at a seminary is a PhD. Although I would agree, I have thought myself "PhD in preaching"?? Isn't that like PhD in storytelling? Don't get me wrong, I am not impressed with MDivs or PhDs or ThDs at seminaries in any way versus M.S. or M.A.s or PhDs at traditional colleges. I was simply drawing a contrast between Smyrl and Trey in regard to their ministerial training and experiences. Still, Trey can't carry Smyrl's jock, and what Trey has accomplished has been on the coattails of mom and dad.
Well I would say that an accredited PHD from a seminary is just as rigorus as any PHD from regular universities. A THD, THM, PHD, or MDIV all require extensive studies in biblical languages and systematic theology.
I am not seminary trained but I respect those who have done the work and finished the course of study.
How dare Mac or Trey would stoop so low as to be publicly critical of someone's beliefs or behavior? That type of thing has no place among God's family.
3 Words:
DAMAGE CONTROL!
It's unjust criticism, I tell you!! Get the discipline committee together!
Has Smyrl moved his membership to another church already? I doubt he could have moved it to a planned new church that doesn't yet exist, so has he moved it elsewhere? If not, he's at risk to hear from the Disciplinary Committee at FBCJax...
Will someone call Maurilio and have him call Smyrl? Jim will need his advice on what aprons his elders will need to wear in his first sermon series at LHBC, will need his help in hiring decisions, and how to "brand" his church.
Is anybody reading Mac's twitters tonight? Is it normal for a person to retweet people saying how great you are? Bizarre
Lot of the tweets by pastors via McB twitter feed is more like MBA's than Christians.
Damage control? Here we go again.
1. If Smyrl pulls tithers away from fbc, is it time to start selling buildings to cover the budget? Then move the church?
2. It appears to me that Smyrl is no different than Brunson. They are both Purpose Driven. Small Groups is at the core of their ministries. aka Rick Warren and his mentor Robert Schuller. When are these pastors going to return to the Holy Spitit for direction and leave the failed PD program?
3. Check out this webb sight. WWW. crossroad.to/articles2/04/3-purpose.htm
4. Smyrl could be a fine preacher if he returns to his former self.
Jim told me that his reason for starting this church is because the Lord told him too.
Baloney!
God does not want to tear up Churches!
Jim is an egomaniac with very few speaking skills and a questionable character.
Don't bring God in on your sin.
This is the same kind of injustice like the Casey Anthony trial.
It smells bad up in here!
After reading your blog (I must have no life for reading this stuff) I am trying to figure out who is more bitter, you or the Brunson's? From the outside looking in, most of your stuff reeks with bitterness. You have your right to your opinion, but is this glorifying the Kingdom of God in any way? I would think not! I look forward to the bashing to come!
Martyr up early posting today:
mac brunson
Perspective from Job's life - lightening always hits the tallest tree. Stand tall pastor and count it a blessing when the fire is aimed at u
50 minutes ago
mac brunson
Joni Eareckson Tada says Why is a "me" oriented question.
2 hours ago
mac brunson
In our suffering God may not answer why - He is trying to show us that the Who is more important than the Why.
2 hours ago
mac brunson
We always want to know "why" - Solomon says increasing knowledge increasing pain. Maybe Gods blessing to us and Job is no answer to the why.
2 hours ago
Watchdog: If Dr. Smyrl were to set up a new church, what would be your advice on how to do it. Also, how much market share will he take? After all, this is big business.
OT: Just wanted to let you all know that I spent part of my time in church praying for this situation and all other similar ones.
Whatever the outcome there will be hurting people
It's so funny how people continue to come to your blog and criticize you, and those of us who enjoy keeping up with how megas are tearing apart the Bride. They complain and say hateful things about how we are complaining and saying hateful things. But they continue to show up day after day, comment after comment.
Do you folks not see how hypocritical you are being? Just go away and leave the rest of us, who really care about the lies, manipulation, and sheep beating alone! Please?
About bitterness, it seems like one man’s bitterness is another man’s righteous indignation. It also seems like when I don’t agree with you then I am the one that’s bitter.
“2. It appears to me that Smyrl is no different than Brunson. They are both Purpose Driven. Small Groups is at the core of their ministries. aka Rick Warren and his mentor Robert Schuller. When are these pastors going to return to the Holy Spi(r)it for direction and leave the failed PD program?”
They’re not. Why would they? They have it too good.
We have entered an era of a new Romanism where an elite religious class has the authority of the church members. It is the members’ place to fall in lock step behind these men who have the “call of God” upon them and do as they are told. Granted as a member you can lie and engage in any kind of gross sin or immorality and have your sins forgiven and forgotten.
Now the one thing members must not to is ask questions or try to make a stand for righteousness then my friend you have committed the unpardonable sin. You sir are bitter, a trouble maker and a Pharisee. You cause division and must be dealt with accordingly.
So remember children we must obey the Pastor because he is specially anointed of God and as good little boys and girls we must swallow and follow.
Have you read Trey's last 40 Twitter postings? If you did, you would realize he quotes a lot of people on a lot of subjects.
Have you read Mac's last 40 Twitter postings? I am sure you have, but he often quotes a passage.
These tweets from both Brunsons are far from conclusive. Maybe they were meant to barb Smryl, or maybe not. But you jump on them because it gives you a new topic and a new drama to take up your time Watchdog.
So Smyrl is starting a new church, so what? SO FBCJ doesn't have the attendance it used to, so what? The Kingdom is so much bigger than these two blips.
I will say it again Watchdog, I think you are a big cry baby. Your video on the news (re Canar) reminded me that you are just a little creepy...like you would hang out in your mom's garage in your boxers.
I know a lot of your life is wrapped up in the attention of 100's of people, but there is so much more to life...go enjoy it Dog.
Jason
I was watching Brunson this morning to see how he would play this out and sure enough he didn't disappoint. First Baptist has built a stage for a great performer and we saw that this morning. I liked when it came his turn to preach how he walked real slow up on stage and then stood behind the pulpit and just stood there for about 10 seconds without saying a word but just looking out into the audience. When he finally started talking he said how this has been a terrible week for him and all I could think about was the only reason it was bad was because a staff member left you instead of you letting them go. Then he started talking about job and how he lost everything and I got to thinking compaired to job what has Mac Brunson lost. He still has his $5000 a week job his house,cars,wife,kids and his trips to Europe. But what about the people that Mac let go since he became pastor. How do you think they felt when they had to go out a find a job. The one I think about is the headmaster of the academy that Mac brought in from another state only to be let go a short time latter. How do you think he felt being unemployed in another state then having to find another job. I've never seen a pastor act so childish.
Nice try Jason. I feel sorry for you that you have to defend the indefensible, and still go on the personal attack. But I do understand, it is what you've learned to do from your professional religious leaders. Your mind has been conditioned to not see the truth, and to attack anyone who questions those who you follow.
And you are so right about there being more to life. More to life than following cry baby pastors and listening to their stories and their b.s.
Loving life more than ever, and hoping more people open their eyes and see the truth about religious charletons.
Be of good cheer, Jim Smyrl. When lightning strikes, it always hits the tallest tree, so says Mac Brunson.
First of all, lightning doesn't always hit the "tallest" tree. And that has nothing to do with what happens to pastors. Once again we see the egomaniac pastors who think that any and all criticism that comes their way, even for stupid things they do and say, is a sure sign that they are in God's will.
And the people just lap it up. Anon is right, they built a grand stage for a grand performer.
I heard for so many years that it was all about "getting out the gospel." That's why it never entered my head that churches compete with each other. Then I told a pastor's wife that we had started going to a different church, and she wanted us to come to their church instead. Why didn't she say, "I'm just so happy ya'll are in church. That church is a good church. We're all on the same team."
It was just further evidence that there's one group that Christians dislike more than "the world." It's other Christians. Other Christians are the competition, after all.
This comment is not intended to be critical of either group but to make an observation. I reserve the right to be wrong and possibly could be.
This is ironic. Here we have a blog that is exists to bring criticism to others and at the same time are criticizing someone else who tweets and / to criticize(s) others.
If my observations are correct, I think it would be fair to say both groups think they are right and have a right to be critical and that their position is correct. Of course, those who are in ministry are to be above such behavior but we pew priests (according to scripture) do not have to be.
Yo Watchdog!
I used to like your blog. I liked your criticisms of the lack of wisdom concerning the direction of the church.
But seeing your lack of discernment with the whole "carry the jockstrap" stuff has revealed a different side.
You appear to be soley motivated by a hate for the Brunson family. You have made it personal rather than careful criticisim.
Not to mention, your facts are often lacking precision.
And you would serve others well if you would shorten your posts.
I do not agree with MB's philosophy, but I do not care for the political prowess of Jim Smyrl either. They both need to repent.
Thanks for the input anon.
No hatred in my heart at all for the Brunsons.
I will continue to speak against what is happening in so many mega churches that have been transformed from houses of worship into stages for performers.
I will say again: I find it ironic that Trey critizes Smyrl's motives in starting a church plant - for the reasons I give. Perhaps he should get a visit from the discipline committee for his unjust criticism. :)
I will continue to blog about this story as it unfolds, you can rest assured, and I'll write posts as long or short as I like. :)
I will continue to blog about this story as it unfolds, you can rest assured, and I'll write posts as long or short as I like. :)
July 11, 2011 9:30 AM
Yo Watchdog: Good for you -we're 100% behind you!
'and I'll write posts as long or short as I like.'
Could this a part of the problem. You and those at FBCJ post what you / they like and possibly not what God likes?
I was in awe yesterday of my Pastor.
He showed such restraint (as usual) and was under then control of the Holy Spirit.
I am honored to be one of his flock and I would never go to a Church (not naming names) that was started out of spite, ill will, and deceit.
I speak for thousands of people.
Anyone remember when Brunson made it clear he considered it competition that Andy Stanley was putting a church at the beach? I believe the wording was "in our own back yard."
"..spite, ill-will, and deceit..."
You don't have to name names, we know you are taking aim at James Smyrl.
Thank you. We now know you and thousands of others have learned well from your pastor and his son.
Yes, you all are becoming bitter.
"I speak for thousands of people."
July 11, 2011 10:21 AM
I wonder if you know a lot of people wanted Jim Smyrl to be called to be the Senior Pastor of FBCCJ = not Brunson!
"I speak for thousands of people."
All that big talk don't mean doodly-squat.
"I speak for thousands of people."
You speak for yourself only - TROLL.
Maybe the person does speak for thousands of people . JSO might have a new mind reading device that they're testing on the attendees of FBC church services. Lol
Really must think we are dumb to believe that they know what 1000s of other folks think.
But Jim leading this church plant in this manner smells up the place.
Jim is a good preacher, but its not like he is some headliner either.
And just because Akin is helpful to give LHM does not mean he endorses this divisive nonsense.
Smyrl should have taken time off and sought a route that was not as divisive.
July 9, 2011 3:40 PM
Typical mega church talk...impressed with "headliners".
Team Brunson has made some decisions that many of us are not proud of.
From questionable Church credit card usage to the number of vacation days taken yearly to his lack of leadership with the Staff.
But that would be with anyone.
He has my full support and I am very proud to be under his authority as my spiritual leader.
Bible says we are to submit ourselves and it never says do it only if you 100% agree with the Leader.
I didn't agree with Peter cussing but I would have followed him anyway.
Anon "Who speaks for thousands of people"...
You do not speak...you bleat...that's what sheep do!
Mac worked hard yesterday morning to squeeze sympathy out of his "flock...baaaa". He looked whipped...poor thing...
O.K....defend your Paaaastor(excuse me)...wake up and grow a mind of your own...as a Christian we have the ability to be smart about scripture and formulate our own scriptural I.Q. You don't need an elitist telling you what you should think...you have the "mind of Christ" (btw, Paul tells us that in scripture).
Defend Mac...no way! Go ahead and keep drinking...
Do sheep like Kool Aid????
I have to make one observation here.
On this website, I read blog after blog that does nothing but criticize the current mega church administration systems and the pastors at the top of these organizations in the Christian community .
Not once have I read a comment from somebody who has offered possible, plausible and logical solutions to the mess. Not once have I read a comment from somebody who has changed the system, or made an effort to bring chage and reported back the positive results from doing so.
From what I see on this blog, it looks to me that more harm is being done to the cause of Christ by simply blogging and talking about problems, instead of instituting changes and turning things around. I would go as far to say that more harm is being done here than in any bully pulpit of a mega church. Here's why I say that; When everything is said and done and the good Lord looks you straight in the face and asks you what you did to bring about change to the problems you believe existed, all you're going to be able to say is that you verbally spouted the necessity for change but never acted on the need. What a shameful and sad thing that would be. Whatever side you're on, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day talking about change and bringing about change are two separate ideas. You can blog years on end about issues and problems that exist in the SBC mega church culture, but until you rise up and offer solutions and succeed at fixing the problems you believe are so rampant, your effort and time committed here is in vain for the Lord.
I recently watched the interview between Diane Sawyer and Jaycee Dugard, the little girl who was kidnapped, held captive, and sexually abused for 18 or so years by a twisted, demonic pedophile. She suffered tremendous abuse and trauma for so long, and even gave birth to two children; But, this was not the most surprising thing to me about the whole case. Rather, it was the fact that there were numerous opportunities for parole officers to discover and realize that Dugard was indeed being held captive by that monster everytime they went to inspect his house. Had the parole officers done their job correctly and inspected the whole compound, Jaycee Dugard could have been saved much sooner.
I liken that to all of you who constantly criticize through blogging. You're like those parole officers. Your actions, your attitude, the attacks you communicate through blogs are worth nothing, and they do nothing. You only make matters worse and add to the abuse that already exists. You preach against abusive mega church pastors abusing innocent sheep, but you never do anything substantial to alleviate the hurt and abuse in these churchs.
So I urge you, don't be a useless parole officer and let abuse continue. Do your job correctly as a Christian and be somebody and do something that God would be proud of.
RE: Watchdog comment at July 9, 2011 11:02 AM
Why don't you give Jim Smyrl the same advise. He is putting up facebook posts and tweets which try to sound holy but are simply shots at FBC.
Anon 4:03
Lighten up...
This blog reflects direct observations of those who are members, were members or have visited and have seen, first hand, the antics currently going on at FBC.
We are not attempting to tear down the Church or the cause of Christ(that is being done adequately by the current regime)...we have the right to report and comment on what we're going through with our once mighty Church.
Put your "holier than thou" attitude in check until you have walked in our shoes!
gosh july 11 4:03 you honestly took the words right out of my mouth. reading this blog has become something like watching a vendetta. and again, I don't agree with the things Mac Brunson said about watchdog in the paper. But this is turning in to a vendetta, watchdog, and I think the way 4:03 worded it is correct...a vendetta for what purpose? To hurt Brunson as much as he hurt you? from a long time reader....
Some helpful posts from Wade Burleson's blog that relate to the comments on this post:
The Duty of Harsh Criticism: It Humbles the Proud and Sharpens the Culture
THE Greatest Problem In Evangelical Christianity Is Our View of "Authority"
Pastors Are Among the People, Not Over the People
Finding a Way to Be Authentic With Ourselves and With Others
Southern Baptists and Mormons Maybe More Alike in Church Practice Than We Want to Admit
If Celebrity Were Integrity the Southern Baptist Convention Would Be Morally Blameless: Why the SBC Can Be Faulted for Ergun Caner's Rise and Demise
"Not once have I read a comment from somebody who has offered possible, plausible and logical solutions to the mess.
May I suggest speaking as a woman that the topdog leaderships walk over to the authorities & drop the charges against Mrs. Rich coming on church property that is a non-profit organization.
Honestly, this was the most juvenile injustment I have ever heard of. I'm still very angry just for that deed itself - she did not deserve this injustice & many feel disgust for Brunson . . .love, forgiveness, compassion he preaches is a joke!
To me that would be the 1st logical thing to do.
If you had been paying as much as attention as you claim then you would have read my posts complimenting my Pastor and I have also complimented Jon L Estes. There are numerous compliments of Peter Wiley and WD has complimented his Pastor. We have complimented Wade Burleson many times also.
So if you read this Blog and can only find complaints it is simply because that is the only thing you are looking for. You only want to believe the truth you want to believe so you will not see or hear any truth other than what you want to believe.
We post here because here everyone has a voice and all are equal and all can be heard. Can the same be said about any Mega Church in America today?
I post nothing for which I would not look Jesus in the face and say I did it. I may and in fact have been wrong and have apologized for it.
I did do as you suggest and use the designated form my former church said it was providing to obtain member feedback on members’ concerns. Guess what? It was nothing but a sham! They had no desire to hear anything from the poor, low ordinary member. We were not important. How do I know? The chairman of the so called communications committee told us in a very angry voice. He did not know why we had come. The decisions had already been made. The committee was only there to reiterate the decision that had been made and for us to voice our concerns were a waste of the committee’s and our time.
So here’s the thing, tell us about one Mega Church in America where a common member can come and voice his concerns and receive a fair and true hearing.
Also, you are perfectly free in this form to write compliments too. You don’t have to complain about us.
Anon 4:03
You are confused.
The actual exposure and highlighting of the nonsense in the pulpit IS doing something.
To get people to see it, to get them to think about it, to get as wide of exposure as possible, actually does accomplish something. It is why we have a free press, because we know that allowing people to expose and discuss what goes on in institutions educates people, and this is the genesis for change over the long haul.
Take tithing. The solution that I offer is obvious: Pastors, stop spiritually abusing your congregations by lying to them about what the bible says regarding the tithe. It is so simple. Stop using scare tactics, stop misuing scripture and stop speaking of curses on their money, stop portraying God as a mob boss who collects.
Someone like me can't stop these men from preaching this. They are free to preach what they want.
But I too am free to expose it and parody it, and highlight it - all for the purpose of helping people realize they are being lied to.
And your analogy really doesn't make sense.
Anon 4:55 - just to clarify, there were not "charges" filed, but John Blount did go to a sheriff's deputy and file a trespass paper and the reason listed was "church misconduct".
The first hand-written form trespass paper that Blount himself delivered accused my wife of "associating with a member committing church misconduct"....and then when we didn't show up for their kangaroo court he went to the JSO and accused my wife of church misconduct.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
If the people in the pews are there to follow their pastor....not ask questions..and, surely not ask to see how their money is spent....to never question authority of God's man...to never subject him to questions about the errors about what is biblically true.....then, why are we to pray for discernment? Sheep blindly following their Shepherd...even if it leads them over the cliff.
Question: Are you ignorant or just apathetic?
The answer from most church members is: I don’t know and I don’t care
Board members missing from loyal heart website. What's up with that?
Smyrl will soon find out (or has already) who his true friends are.
Anon 4:03,
If Watchdog's criticisms aren't accomplishing anything constructive, then what are your criticisms of his criticisms accomplishing?
FBC Member’s overall analysis of the church:
FBC Watchdog: Good evening. For the record, I am a long time FBC member who was saved as an adult under the preaching of Dr. Vines and Lindsay. I consider myself a strong analytic willing to critique any situation, even my own biases. I have seen your blog on occasion and agree with some points and strongly disagree on others. In my opinion, the best point you ever made was the church just needs Jesus, Jesus, and more Jesus- I could not agree more. My prayer before writing this is for the Lord to allow me to be as objective and truth oriented as possible and that when you read this you interpret it as well and ask the Lord to convict you where needed and likewise validate your arguments that have merit. I ask this in Jesus name.
Key points and overall analysis of FBC:
• I believe your situation was handled incorrectly- I agree with you on this point. I think some good, Jesus loving, God fearing people just “freaked out” in that this had never happened before at this church and responded out of pride and fear. Please keep in mind, there was and always will be in every church, some dissension. It definitely was there under Dr. Vines and Lindsay, we just didn’t have blogging back then or anywhere near the media outlets we have now-no perfect church, if you find it don’t join it. I will say I also agree with your right to voice concerns but would also say I strongly disagree with your tactics of how you went about it. I would say this is the take of most within the church- agree with your right to speak out, disagree with how you went about it and disagree with how it was handled by FBC.
• The overwhelming majority of the church, in my opinion, supports Dr. Brunson, and not blindly. You have many highly educated, intellectual, Bible centered people who are keenly aware of Dr. Brunson’s shortcomings and choose to support him because they know he loves Jesus and loves others as well and wants to see people’s lives changed by the power of Jesus Christ. He is definitely not a perfect man- my point with this is that church is not a bunch of dumb sheep- I would strongly disagree on this point that has been inferred in some posts- please remember the Holy Spirit allows great discernment for the individual believer.
• In regards to latest overall situation with Jim Smyrl, the majority of the church believed he needed to go and that it is best for the church. In my opinion, he was always creating massive amounts of friction behind the scenes and subscribes to a preaching style that appears to be void of love and grace- he comes across as very elitist and that he has some special knowledge of the Bible-definitely always separating and dividing the church behind the scenes, consistently pittting Christitians against each other. I fully admit I do not know his heart but this is just how he comes across to most- I also fully admit he has done more for the gospel that I probably ever will.
• Financial/tithing- I just don’t get this issue from you at all, I really don’t. I think I speak for most believers(who tithe) in saying that tithing is a life changing experience—learning to trust God with your finances is transformational and brings you closer to Jesus Christ, I would say especially for men. I learned tithing, like thousands of others, at FB under Vines and Lindsay, and it radically changed me and my family’s life in how we look at material possessions. For the record, Dr. Brunson preaches on tithing literally probably 1/5 the time that Dr. Lindsay spent on this subject. I think Dr. Brunson is very uncomfortable in bringing it up because he knows people are so sensitive to it, that when he does it is kind of butchered and I can kind of see where you might get the impressions you do. I have never, ever, felt brow beaten by him on this issue.
(Continued)
• Foundational arguments from Watchdog- like any argument, it must have a solid foundation- you list key points like they are some revelation but I must tell you most do not see your “smoking gun” or “gotcha” argument. I will comment on your issues below but it mostly seems like they are financial or personality issues. I must tell you it comes across as you are obsessed with financial matters, especially if somehow a preacher earns more money than you. I mean this sincerely in saying that it comes across as you have materialistic issues, not Mac.
1) Land grant to Brunson- again, most people say “so what?” A church member gave him a piece of land, most really don’t see a big deal with it- can’t figure out why you are obsessed with this one- I guess he could have declined it and said give it to the church but my gosh to act like this is some massive moral failure is just a big stretch. Keep in mind, Dr. Vines sometimes flew in member’s private airplanes, was given a car to drive, etc.
2) Dr. Brunson speaking ill of congregation- I think taken way out of context--again, not a big deal at all- by the way, we have had a major legalism issue in our church so if anything he was just being real.
3) Family on staff- come on, seriously?- many pastors have their family working with them- FBC approved it anyway, not Mac’s fault.
4) Dr. Brunson’s lifestyle- really stretching here- who cares?
5) Starting a school- no secret meeting, he just thought we needed a school, again, no big deal.
6) Every other criticism- everything just seems so petty and that you are just critiquing his every little move. News flash- if someone wanted to do that to me or you it would probably be much worse.
Summary
• Dr. Brunson- at the end of the day, he is a very good man who loves Jesus. He preaches the gospel. Yes, a little more seeker friendly, but I would argue just more real and relational. Very gifted preacher and very humble- please don’t confuse confidence and arrogance, two totally different qualities- Dr. Brunson is humble but confident. I feel he has definitely been raked over the coals by you for more personality issues than anything. Shortcomings are that he is not that gifted in church administration. Also, he hates controversy and doesn’t know how to deal with it. Probably wish he didn’t quite travel as much and spent more time within the church, but we love him nonetheless- he is our preacher- and again, we do not follow him blindly but do feel God has placed him at our church for his(God’s) ultimate glory.
• Watchdog- definitely most feel you had a right to be heard but you totally went about it the wrong way. How FBC handled your situation was also not good. I am sure you love the Lord as well and were just hurt and believe that you are doing good. However, I think you radically underestimate the ability of believers to discern for themselves, independent of your blog. Also, regarding Dr. Brunson, I feel like you think you have some “smoking gun” but in reality it is kind of like the Wizard of OZ, when you pull away the curtain just not much there. I also feel you are somewhat obsessed with Dr. Brunson’s finances for whatever reason- I understand in America there are issues with mega churches, but I sincerely believe you have missed the mark here.
• Impact on the body, Satan’s overall victory- at the end of the day, I would ask you these questions:
o How many people do you feel your blog has led to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
o How much damage do you feel you have inflicted on the lay people of First Baptist Church?
o How many people have not been saved because you have caused internal turmoil within the church and therefore dampened their fire for witnessing?
o Is this really worth it, does it at the end of the day bring glory to God?
I would humbly ask you in Jesus name to reconsider what you are doing- it really does seem like Satan is the only winner here. It is time to move on, it really is. Please pray about it. Thank you.
Anon - thanks for the critique. You sound very sincere and rational.
I will just say this: there is so much missing from your analysis, it is over simplistic and hardly a fair picture of the last 4 years of this blog and what has transpired. But I do understand that your view, the story that you put forth, is one that is necessary for you and others to believe in order to make sense of your faith and how you continue to follow your pastor. So I do understand. It has nothing to do with being intellectual or educated, it has to do with believing a story that fits with your view of yourselves, your church, and your pastor.
Staying on topic, let's consider what you say regarding Smyrl:
"In regards to latest overall situation with Jim Smyrl, the majority of the church believed he needed to go and that it is best for the church. In my opinion, he was always creating massive amounts of friction behind the scenes and subscribes to a preaching style that appears to be void of love and grace- he comes across as very elitist and that he has some special knowledge of the Bible-definitely always separating and dividing the church behind the scenes, consistently pittting Christitians against each other. I fully admit I do not know his heart but this is just how he comes across to most- I also fully admit he has done more for the gospel that I probably ever will."
That is the first I have ever heard about Smyrl pitting Christians against each other. As far as elitist, I find that more in Brunson - his special knowledge of the Greek that one must have to properly interpret scripture. Brunson often goes way off the charts in how he interprets the text to make HIS points, rather than let the bible speak for itself. I know quite a few members who believe that it is Brunson who takes liberties with scripture - and not Smyrl. I do agree with you that Smyrl has an arrogance about him when he preaches, and some of what he has said from the pulpit that I have criticized before would keep me away from his church. But it is interesting to see how people like you and others, and Brunson and his son, seem to call him "bitter" and devisive, etc. It all sounds so familiar. Almost cultish.
Lastly I will comment on your comments regarding tithing. Lindsay or Vines, NEVER used the tactics that Brunson uses in his teaching of the tithe. Vines and Lindsay never even hinted that not tithing would bring a curse, or that non-tithers were the scourge of our nation, or that God would bring harm to those who don't tithe. I think you are way off in your comparison between your current preacher and those previous.
Children at play.. this is amazing to me that we have resorted to this behavior, especially by the Brunsons. What is even more amazing to me that since the Brunsons arrived at FBC, we have lost all long standing staff members with the exeception of Clifton and Shelly Norman (children's director). What does that tell you? While I don't always subscribe to Smyrl's preaching style, he is a man of God and if God and would not leave unless God was moving him.
The point of all this is that the church has lost its focus.. reaching your neighbor for Jesus PERIOD!
Yes there are lost people in Africa, China, etc etc, but what made FBC the church it WAS was Dr. Lyndsay's heart for Jacksonville. He didn't care about the convention, He didn't care about people all over the world, HE CARED ABOUT THE LOST PEOPLE IN JACKSONVILLE!
FBC has hit an iceberg and is going down. Its time that they refocus.
What ashame!!
Anonymous
It is very interesting to me how you dismissed some very serious issues with what appears to be a "so what" cavalier attitude. I understand why you must do this. It is either face the issues head on and then have to deal with some very difficult decisions or blow them off.
This is called cognitive dissonance and you have to take this path in order to relieve the tension in your life. So do many others. That is why people can defend the indefensible. If they don't, they have to face themselves and ask some very difficult questions (why did I put up with this for so long?) that will most likely lead to major life changes.
I did and frankly, after a short time of pain, it was worth it.
WD looks like Brunson is having a pity party. His tweets are so pitful; as he compares himself to Job?
I am amazed that someone of his proclaimed statute would tweet those things.
Take a look at them.
Watchdog:
First off, not sure who Anon is. I have tried to be balanced with my analysis and would hope you would do the same. Let's take your words below:
"I will just say this: there is so much missing from your analysis, it is over simplistic and hardly a fair picture of the last 4 years of this blog and what has transpired. But I do understand that your view, the story that you put forth, is one that is necessary for you and others to believe in order to make sense of your faith and how you continue to follow your pastor. So I do understand. It has nothing to do with being intellectual or educated, it has to do with believing a story that fits with your view of yourselves, your church, and your pastor. "
Thoughts:
- Seriously Watchdog, going the cult route- you have got to be kidding me? I really think in your own mind that "if people just had their eyes opened" they would see things how you do. I would argue that your comments saying our points are made to justify supporting our pastor are actually much more applicable to your justification of your actions and this blog. Please read my statements again, we have no problem calling Dr. B out on anything. For some reason, you just can't for the life of you understand why a body is more than capable of hearing your agrguments, critiquing their own pastor, analyze his shortcomings, praying and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us with our assesments, and at the end of the day say "the good drastically outweighs the bad"- many of us can accept your points but you likewise just have to accept that a vast majority have thoroughly analyzed your points and just disagree with you. I am sure instead of instrospection right now you are busy away at typing another response that says "you need to say that make yourself feel better"- quite repetitive throughout your blog- wreaks of arrogance and a lack of self-analysis- have never seen any repentance on your part of anything you have done wrong in this whole mess--and now my fear is you are so jaded from attacks(many illogical I agree)and are so used to being in "response mode" that you can't see truth anymore, especially in yourself. I just think you are used to getting the fringes from the church who tell you what you want to hear.
- I agree with you that Dr. B has more sidebars in scripture analysis that Smyrl for sure-- but in regard to the heart there is no comparison- Smyrl, in my opinion, just gets everybody pointing their fingers at each other and other Christians under the guise of discipleship. Forgets that Dr. Vines coined the phrase "make a friend, win a friend"-- it is not either or, you can be a great bible expositor and be relational- "you will know them by their love for each other"
- Tithing- we will have to agree to disagree on this one- sounds like you were offended by a couple statements- the whole body actually wishes he would preach on it more(albeit the correct way)because it is so life changing- forget the church, I am talking about your personal relationship with the Lord.
I appreciate you hearing me out.
Anon. 11:22 and 11:24
I almost totally disagree with everything you mentioned.
I have been a member of FBC for over 30 years and have never seen this church in such a shamble as today! That comes from the Leadership!!
Our leadership is lacking in every single area of leadership!
How can you defend the indefensible? We are spoken down to every time we enter a service. We are brow beaten over money and tithing.
We are treated to a ridiculous history lesson instead of the WORD of GOD every service! I want to hear BIBLE history not Brunson's choice of history.
July 4th was a classic example....history, history and more history without hardly a mention of Jesus Christ and HIS role in history.
Pastor Lindsay and Dr. Vines taught us the WORD verse by verse EVERY service! I do not come to church to hear history! I come to hear about Jesus Christ and the Word of God!
Brunson is nothing more than a teacher with "itching" ears and apparently your ears are being tickled!
Many church members have mentioned this and more about FBC. Many members have left over the ear "tickling." Look around...how many empty seats do you see? Empty seats after adding six-(6) classrooms and removing how many rows of pews?
Please open your eyes....something is definitely wrong at FBC and it all started when BRUNSON came!!
Leadership is responsible for the problems at FBC and that is exactly what is wrong...NO LEADERSHIP!
I just could not sit idly by and read your narration without responding. You are apparently in leadership somewhere at FBC and love your position more than the truth!
Anon 12:16
PREACH PREACH PREACH! Could not have said it better myself. It is hard to find a church today that declares the word of God like Lynsday and Vines. I was a faithful member for 15 years at FBC and during some of the greatest preaching and soul winning ever.
How I would long to hear good biblical preaching coming from the pulpit at FBC.
The sheep at FBC are so dumb, they mindlessly follow what they think is a godly leader. Once you leave the cult ( I did over 2 years ago) you begin to see what brain washing that goes on.
PRAYING that God will once again allow sound biblical preaching to come from the pulpit at FBCJAX.
'July 4th was a classic example....history, history and more history without hardly a mention of Jesus Christ and HIS role in history.'
You have got to be kidding. July 3rd (not 4th) was a patriotic service with narration and singing combined. It was a powerful service. The history lessons that day were a part of the presentation.
At the end, Pastor Brunson gave a powerful appeal for the cross. He used Psalm 60 and spoke on the condition of our nation and military. He spoke clearly about being under the banner of the cross.
If you missed the purpose of this service you are either unpatriotic or just looking for something to gripe about.
Anon 2:10.
You have got to be kidding me!
Again you defend the history lessons and presentation over real substance.
Jesus Christ was pretty much left out of the history presentation July 3rd! I did not say He was left out of the singing!
There was no mention of our Lord the entire presentation. History lessons about the 4th with no mention of how Jesus Christ was involved.
Brunson only allowed history by mans perspective, not GOD'S!
Yes, he finally spoke about Jesus at the very end. Open your eyes and remember what church is for! Church is for worshipping Jesus Christ, NOT history!
Please remove your blinders before this church is exactly that...HISTORY!
'You have got to be kidding me!
Again you defend the history lessons and presentation over real substance.
Near the begging of the service, Pastor Brunson pointed at the cross and spoke of the centrality of the cross. Watch the video and you will see Pastor Brunson speak of Christ centered choices. This was just after the second choir singing during the presentation.
Do you read scripture the same way you watched that presentation? No wonder you are so far off in your thinking.
The whole service was designed to lead to Jesus, the cross and our commitment to live under it. Jesus used stories, very good ones many times before He made mention of the kingdom.
I guess if you would have been in charge you would have left out the recognition of our service men and women, since it has nothing to do with the cross.
Don't forget during the second narration he spoke of putting two words in our pledge to the flag. I am wondering if you were even there. If you watched it online it was only to find fault. That is so sad.
With folks like you leaving you did help increase the overall percentage level of scripture. Every time you take out a negative, the positives grow. Thanks.
I would encourage readers to listen to Wade Burleson's sermon series on Hebrews.
As an occasional reader of this blog, I must admit I am completely dismayed by the language (carry his jockstrap?), arrogance and general nastiness of most posters. Many claim they are somehow 'guarding the body of Christ' from evil megachurches and the pastors who lead them. What is readily apparent is that some who post comments including 'the watchdog' are disgruntled former First Baptist, Jacksonville folks who have derived a comfortable outlet for dispersing their anger and bitterness. How sad when the body of Christ turns on itself to satisfy the desires of the flesh. Meanwhile the real enemy continues to reap a deadly harvest of precious souls. I hasten to add that I have absolutely no connection with First Baptist Church, I live a continent away from Jacksonville, and I'm not even Baptist. I am, however, a brother in Christ who loves Christ's church in all it's various expressions, and with all it's obvious faults. The sad truth is that those responsible for the spiritual bankruptcy on display here will one day be held accountable for their actions. On that day when Christ judges our every thought deed, and yes, every word, many will hear those dreadful words of Jesus "Depart from Me those who work iniquity. I never knew you.
Anon 3:53 - it is interesting that you make such accusations against myself and other posters.
You don't like the "carry a jockstrap" comment...too bad, it is an athletic metaphor and it is just that.
What is sad is how you want to criticize and actually condemn us to the judgment of God - and assume we are going to hell - over our speaking frankly on topics of concern to the body of Christ - but yet you express no concern over pastors who berate church members, and use scare tactics and misuse the bible to beat them up over finances.
Sir, I would say that your words of condemnation should be reserved for the pastors who are beating up the sheep, living high on the hog off the backs of their members, and continuing to lie about what the bible says about their finances.
We are doing our best on this blog to expose hypocrisy and spiritual abuse, and will continue to do so.
The only statement I made about you personally is that you appeared to be a disgruntled former First Baptist attender among others who post on your blog.
Loving other within the body of Christ is THE authenticating mark of a true Christ follower. I see very little of that evident in most posts to your blog. What is more evident are attitudes that exemplify the "works of the flesh"
as described in Gal. 5:20 Those fleshly attitudes are not unique to those who post on your blog, and indeed they are found throughout churches large and small and church leadership at every level.
I have no desire to condemn you to hell. I have no idea whether you are truly a Christ follower or not--only god knows our hearts and He is the only judge we must answer to. My fear is that many confessing Christians, in and out of the organized church, will one day realize too late that they missed the real thing. Loving others to Christ is where the fight needs to be taken--not tearing apart the body of Christ for personal vindication.
Anon 7:00
Nailed it, absolutely nailed it.
Anon 7:00 and 10:06. Unbelievable blinders you have!!!
I don't usually comment on sites such as this (of course there's a but here), but from my quick survey of the site it seems that there is plenty of bitterness to go around. I understand the usefulness of discernment ministries when it comes to identifying false doctrine and its proponents, but a watchdog site to point out every time a pastor or church hiccups is a little much in my opinion. Having come out of the SBC recently I know there is a lot to harp on, but I think there may be a time to move on to other areas of discussion.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in what you have written. I'm not privy to the entire incident. But having been a SBC pastor (and still a pastor) I tend to cut my fellow pastors a little slack before I attempt to tighten the noose. I'm just sayin'.
And to do this under the guise of a cute little dog (anonymously?)…why?
Good questions "pastorspurlin" Childishness is pretty much the theme here at watchdog
Post a Comment