Last night Ergun Caner had a Twitter Q&A session, where he invited people to ask him anything on Twitter, and he would reply.
As you might expect, Tim Rogers, pictured at left, pastor of Ebenezer Baptist in Indian Trail, North Carolina was there to defend Ergun Caner from those who used the Q&A invitation from Caner to ask him about his lies and refusal to repent.
And Rogers was in rare form, using his standard tactic of defending Caner by attacking James White.
But this time Rogers has gone off the rails, using a tragedy in James White's family involving allegations of molestation of White's sister by their father when James was a young boy. Whatever the truth is in THAT situation in James White's family, it has absolutely nothing to do with Ergun Caner using the events of 9/11 to begin deceiving people about where he was raised and his prowess as a trained terrorist who converted to Christianity just before he strapped a bomb to his back.
Look at this Tweet from Tim Rogers, a supposed "man of God", Southern Baptist pastor, in which Rogers is almost making light of and poking fun at the tragedy in James White's family, calling James White "Jimmy" and asking him about the room in which his sister was molested:
And this was just one of many Tweets Rogers posted about the molestation charges in White's family. Go to Rogers' Tweet feed and see if for yourself. He continues to make charges that James White has committed a crime, that he covers for pedophiles.
There you have it, folks. If you needed any further evidence that Ergun Caner and his vocal defenders and his silent supporters will stop at absolutely nothing to prop Caner up to avoid the embarrassment that Caner's decade of deceit is to the likes of Jerry Vines and Paige Patterson and Jack Graham, you now have it.
Thank you, Tim Rogers, for showing the darkness of your heart in this and other Tweets in the past 24 hours.
I'm sure Tim's church members are proud of his defense of the deceiver Ergun Caner, and how he has asked the most sickening of questions to poke fun at the tragedy in White's family. And to make unfounded criminal allegations against James White.
As one commenter or Twitter said today, the train wreck known as "Ergun Caner" is gaining speed, and when it finally derails the mess it will make in the SBC and the embarrassment it will bring to many who have supported him will be spectacular.
New folks are jumping into the convo today like Acts 17 asking if White would put his debate up against Caner's debate with Ally. Apparently Caner didn't debate the person. Don't know too much about it. Why does EC accuse his accusers of being Calvinists? I don't even understand the Calvinist issue really. Does asking someone to be honest mean you're a Calvinist?
Debbie - I agree. It is insanity.
But this is a runaway train, that is gaining speed and will eventually derail. It will get worse. More lawsuits are coming.
But I also understand from a reliable source that there is more coming in terms of media coverage, possibly having to do with the lawsuit and the speech given to the Marines. Sit tight. It will get uglier. But the truth shall prevail.
And by the way, all of this tells me that these men: I'll say Caner and Rogers for starters - really don't even believe the Bible they profess. For if they really DID, they would fear their God and not engage in this activity.
Wachdog in responce to your question as to whether Caner and Rogers actually believe the Bible that they profess I also have a hard time believing that Bucky Kennedy and the other trustees at Brewton-Parker College that endorsed the lies could really fear God. Even though we are to be willing to forgive does not require us to put our trust in that person if they show no evidence of repentence.
My point exactly, Anon. The SBC seminary-trained MOGs who require a person to believe all of the Bible as inerrant and inspired tp be a true Christian - most of them demonstrate week after week that they don't believe it. These extreme Tweets by Rogers are just a glaring example for all to see this truth in action: they don't believe the bible they profess, else they would fear the God in that bible.
Or they don't fear that God, because they are the "men of that God", and what they say is what God says, in their seminary-trained brains. Why fear God, when you are speaking the words of God?
The deep sickness in the SBC grows more disturbing by the day.
This made my stomach turn. Tim Rogers could not possibly be a man who fears God. He's a shameful man, a bully, a man with no conscience. He possesses the sensitivity of a slug.
The leadership within the SBC is going to have to make a stand at some point and I predict it will not be long. How fitting it will likely not be Caner himself, but Rogers who gets it done.
I agree with you Rich. Depositions are coming. The concentric circles forming around the SBC are growing wider and slopping over.
I’ve been over to Rogers’ Twitter account and feel as though I’ve just taken a bath in a sewer!!! Tim Rogers has to be one of the vilest, most pathetic, and despicable human being currently polluting this planet. This totally worthless individual is too busy patting himself on the back over this “great discovery” he claims to have made to realize that has done nothing but prove to the whole world how stupid and evil he truly is.
The situation between James White and his sister, Patty Bonds, has been public knowledge for over a decade. She tells of her apostasy to Roman Catholicism in the book “Surprised By Truth 3”, edited by Patrick Madrid in 2002, on pp. 183-228. Although a quick reading of her story did not yield the specific molestation allegations, she began speaking of them publicly not too long afterwards. Every so often, she would shoot off her month, and then her Catholic buddies would start yelling and screaming about how mean and terrible Big Bad James White is for responding for the comments that SHE made! I always got the impression whenever White felt the need to discuss her that he really wanted to talk about her as little as possible. I also always had the impression that the reason why some of these Catholic apologists took such interest in her is that she was James White’s sister and saw the opportunity to use her as a weapon against him. If she was John Smith’s sister instead of James White’s sister, many of them likely would not have given her the time of day.
Now it must be kept in mind that Patty is James’ OLDER sister. From what she says, there is a six year difference between the two. She says she was born in 1956, so that would make her currently 57 and James 51. She alleges that the molestation occurred when she was 11. So James would have been 5! Does Tim Rogers actually want to hold a 5 year old boy accountable for that???? Patty then said that she first brought up the issue to the family when she returned home from college. Assuming that she was about 18-20 when she did so, that would make James White 12-14. Does Tim Rogers actually think we are stupid enough that we should hold a 12-14 year old boy accountable for deliberately “covering-up” a case of child molestation??????
Rogers is using an Arizona statute to justify his attack against White. However, there is no indication of when that particular law was enacted. Assuming for the sake of argument that the molestation did occur, the exact date of that mandatory notification law is important because the U.S. Constitution expressly forbids “ex post facto” laws. That means if somebody did something in 1980 while there was no law against it, but a law addressing that situation is enacted in 1995, then that person cannot be held accountable for violating that law.
Tim Rogers has proven that he is a servant of the devil. He shields, protects, and defends pathological liars such as Ergun Caner, and then attacks a true Christian scholar such as James White with garbage straight from the pit. I will say it now, and I will say it again before the Throne of the Most Holy Lord God of Heaven; Tim Rogers is the scum of the earth.
Everybody should print up flyers with web links and website addresses that expose men like these. For just a few bucks everyone could have a thousand flyers printed and give them out at churches, Christian bookstores, gospel concerts, etc. Place them under the windshield of every car that you see that has a fish on it, etc.
The more they try to silence, the louder the expose!
Everyone needs to keep in mind that Patty Bond's claims came after her supposed visions of sleeping in Mary's (the mother of Jesus lap) and her apostasy to the Roman Catholic church. She has also divorced her husband and the father of her children. Ms. Bonds really has no credibility in any of this.
James White has never shied away from speaking with Patty, and has even directly interacted with her claims.
Anonymous wrote, "Don't know too much about it. Why does EC accuse his accusers of being Calvinists? I don't even understand the Calvinist issue really."
Hi Anonymous. The Ergun Caner controversy had been perking along in the blogosphere for a while when James White took it up. The controversy revolves around mutually contradictory statements Ergun has made about growing up in Istanbul as a jihadi-in-training, knowing about America only what he saw on Turkish TV, etc. As the Brewton-Parker bio concedes, he actually grew up in Ohio. Dr. White both raised the issue to a higher level of visibility because he hosts a popular podcast, but also carried along a certain amount of baggage because he is a Calvinist who debates the topic. After he got involved, Christianity Today published an article, which is when I started paying attention. Evidently Ergun Caner's supporters feel they can exploit the Calvinist/non-Calvinist fault-line that divides Southern Baptists, but I suppose if that was working very well they would not be dragging in this incredibly mean-spirited stuff about the sister.
Approx 1:46 on screen he shows quote from book coauthored by Ergun Caner & Mac Brunson.
Public sin requires public confession.
Do you have a link to the Q&A session?
I read through some conversations via twitter between Rogers and others calling him out on his behavior.
He asks which room she was molested in, as far as I read, twice. He actually repeated the question!
This is absolutely disgusting. If I didn't know he was a preacher, I would have thought he was a heartless pshyco path getting his jollies on other people's pain. Oh wait, he just might be.
His tweets are mixed with Bible verses and praising God and then revolting bullying of everyone who challenges him. Satan quotes verses from the Bible too ya know.
And then many Christians wonder why "the world" doesn't want to have anything to do with "the Church".
It's about time the church got rid of these people. How about Tim Roger's church telling him to get the **** out?
Yet, I don't hear a peep out of Rogers or other SBC pastors calling for accountability from a fellow Baptist megachurch pastor Jack Graham for the documented failure to report child sex abuse by former Prestonwood Baptist minister John Langworthy. Crickets...and selective moral outrage.
Ladies and gentlemen,
the institutions of religion today are the same institutions that delivered our Lord over to the Romans to be crucified. The same religious institutions that burned Tyndell at the stake. The same religious institution that murdered millions with inquisitions, and the same religious institution that would crucify Christ all over again if given the opportunity. God has His church, but He is beginning to open His churches eyes and they are leaving this harlot religious system that once deceived them. Come out of the harlot religious system, and God will not forsake you, and you will not receive of her plagues. God is already judging this false religious system that is made up of many, many different denominations. Separate yourself and your families from her. She is not a bride, she is a harlot.
Going back to SBC seminary training....I am an alumni of a SBC seminary. I was there in the 1980s when there was a change. The guys there was starting to believe that because they were "called by God" they could do no wrong....never mind they would steal another minister's church position in a heartbeat, there were guys who I know today that are ministers involved in seminary with pornography, the gay lifestyle, alcohol, narcotics.....when I left, I left sick to my stomach.
Look, I rarely go to church now, and when I do either so want to vomit. And the saddest part is the average person in the pew either doesn't know, or they really do not care.
There seems to be attempts by Ergun Caner's friends to fight those they don't like with crude allegations of pornography and molestation. Remember Emir Caner tweeted "The military found a stockpile of pornography in Osama Bin Laden’s compound. I didn’t know Muslims had their own Acts 29 network." Guess where Tim Rogers gets his ideas from.
The boot that pastor needs to be booted out of his role as pastor also. I remember a very humble pastor said once that God used a donkey to send a message to Balaam to NOT think to highly of yourself. To entertain a statement like that over a tweet is loathsome. He needs discipline by his congregation for such a statement.
In response to the comments of anon at 1:47 it seems to me that the ones that were able to hijac the SBC under the guise of conservative resurgence that they actually think that God is dead and that the Bible is only a history book of when God was alive and that it was left up to them to do Gods work as they see fit. They seem to not know that the Lords plan is to do His work under the power of 'The Holy Sprit'. It is by their talent that they are to perform sermons etc. I think this may be the case or it may be that they think they were able to take God hostage because it has been years since I have heard any of them to say anything about the 'Priesthood of The Believer' which used to be one of The Baptists primary doctrines. I do hear a lots about the importance of having a strong pulpit.
I encourage you not to attack Patty Bonds when it comes to her claims of childhood abuse. We don't know the truth in that case. But her converting to Roman Catholicism and getting a divorce aren't relevant to whether or not she was abused.
I keep my opinion of Patty Bonds' claims to myself, because it is worthless. I hope others will do the same. Only Patty Bonds and James White know the truth of the matter (I think their parents are deceased). Its her word against his. Apart from an official legal investigation, none of us will probably ever know. I'd prefer not to comment on it at all, but felt the need to respond to your comment.
In any case, child abuse and child sexual abuse is a very serious matter. Those who claim to be the victims of such should not be denigrated, dismissed, or attacked. I encourage everyone to go over this article: http://www.snapnetwork.org/what_to_do_when_your_priest_is_accused_of_abuse
Caner's defenders keep claiming that he repented, but Caner keeps declaring himself "completely unrepentant" on twitter.
Tim Rogers claims persecution: http://pastortimrogers.com/ending-the-year-with-a-target-on-my-back-by-tim-rogers/
Notice also that Rogers favoritably cites an IFBx KJV-Only fundamentalist calling himself "DrJamesAch." James Ach (whatever his real name is) has no doctorate and refuses to disclose where his supposed doctorate is from. Yet Rogers addresses Ach as "Dr." there and in his tweets to him.
Are you a five point Calvinist? Just wondering since that is only reason you are hating here.
Are you any of you 5 pointers? Cuz that us the. Only reason to make an issue of this, right?
OK, so is this clown just some troll who decided to jump into the fray uninvited, or is Ergun Caner actually so desperate these days that he is relying on backwoods bumpkins like this to have his back?
I have nothing, per se, against NASCAR, but the fact that Pastor Tim proudly announces his affinity for the sport in his bio does sort of confirm a stereotype, for those who would do so.
No, I'm not a Calvinist, in fact, I'm a Lutheran, and I couldn't care less about the 5 points, which - if taken to the extreme - are a terrible parody of the "good news".
But I care about the truth. And I care enough about the church not to want to see it the laughingstock of for being stupid enough to believe Ergun Caner.
There may be times when the church will have to suffer being laughed at for the gospel, but definitely NOT for Ergun Caner's fairy tales.
JD Hall is looking for someone to produce a documentary #TheCanerProject
Muslim calling out EC for lies.
@mokhan247: @erguncaner I still have more info that exposes your lies not only about your upbringing but about Islam. Your attitude is poor. #growup
This is not good for Christian witness to Muslims. I can see now why some are concerned about that as well as the lies.
Fake Ex Muslims site page about one of EC lies.
Whozepa68; your totally irrelevant question shows that you are another one of the Canerites who both hate God's Word and are totally devoid of anything resembling basic integrity.
If Ergun Caner had attempted to do what he has gotten away with in ANY secular profession, he would have been bounced out of his job YEARS ago and made a pariah in his profession. He would be fortunate to land a job where he asks the customer, "Would you like fries with your order, sir?" Not only that, in certain circumstances he would be indicted for criminal fraud and face some very serious legal issues.
The fact is that this situation shows the world has higher standards of basic integrity than many alleged "Christians" such as Caner's supporters, and is another example of the dark spiritual times we live in. Caner, Geisler, Lumpkins, Rogers, Penn, et al are stenches in the nostrils of God and will face his certain and sure punishment unless they repent of their foul sins.
and, yes, I am a five-point Calvinist, because that is what the Word of God teaches. The fact that people like you want to make this a "Calvinist" issue does not but demonstrate how spiritually destitute those of your ilk truly are.
"...and,yes, I am a five-point Calvinist , because that's what the Word of God teaches."
It does? Your interpretation of scripture is not based on fact but only on mans manipulative interpretation of the scripture.
Yes, the Word of God DOES teach what is known as Calvinism, and your contempt for it is nothing less than rejection of the Gospel.
The problem here is that this issue with Tim Rogers really shouldn't have zip to do Calvinism. It's just an inflammatory side issue that gets people distracted from the truth problem. Nor is this the place to sling accusations regarding reformed theology back and forth. In fact, this is in many ways how people choose to deflect the issue away from Ergun Caner's disgusting lies and his continuing to damage the bride of Christ.
I agree that Caner would have been bounced from any other profession, and this would be with far less infractions. A case in point is that some years ago Notre Dame University hired George O'Leary as their head football coach and it was discovered that he had imbellished his resume and for that he was let go after 5 days, even though they did not hire him based on the strength of his resume but on his pass success as a football coach.
Ergun Caner should fit in very nicely in South Georgia. This is one of the most corrupt places in the nation. Drug trafficking, money laundering........A man was just arrested (former Baptist minister) who took off with $21 million from the former Montgomery Bank & Trust. Here's the Peach Pundit story. http://www.peachpundit.com/2014/01/01/traffic-stop-in-brunswick-snags-fugitive-south-georgia-banker-who-disappeared-and-was-declared-dead/#comments
Of course, just Google "Aubrey Lee Price is Arrested" and you'll have a smorgasbord of stories about the corruption down here.......and the corruption goes deep.
A con man in this part of Georgia will fit in with the locals. BPC is in for a wild ride with Ergun Caner. I honestly can't believe there wasn't one discerning trustee who read his story and refused to raise a question.
This area of Georgia is not only corrupt, but it is very ignorant as well. A con man like Caner will take these people on a roller coaster ride. He could be the final undoing of Brewton-Parker.
2005 Why Churches Die by Ergun Caner & Mac Brunson.....
Do they address church death due to hypocrisy and lack of transparency and / or repentance by pastors? Seeing what has unfolded for both of them answers the question their book title asks.
Men doing the things they've done is the reason churches die.
"Yes, the word of God DOES teach what is known as Calvinism, and your contempt for it is nothing less than rejection of the Gospel."
According to who? YOU and others who believe like you... You are not God but you play god in other peoples lives.You are blinded by your own arrogance and your self proclaimed knowledge of the Word. Your lack of love and compassion for others is evident...Matt 23:13
WHERE R U?
Other Tom" I have studied the Bible for 66 years and find no basis for Calvinism. Please provide verses which back up your stand on the five points. Thanks.
SBC embracing ecumenism. Notably Mac Brunson is preaching at this too.
Dog, I posted some links from Muslim sites critical of Caner. Did the comment request get through?
You may have "studied" the Bible for 66 years, but you haven't believed a word of it. EVERY verse of Scripture testifies to "Calvinism", which is just another name for Biblical Christianity.
This thread was not intended to turn into a Calvinism debate, and I have no desire to hijack it towards that direction. There is PLENTY of material out there for you to read on the subject.
Katie, I disagree. Calvinism is a belief system that has everything to do with how people view life,people and any kind of circumstance.
"Nor is this the place to sling accusations regarding reformed theology back and forth."
People like you aggravate me to know end. It is not for you to tell others what to do.
"This thread was not intended to turn into a Calvinism debate, and I have no desire to hijack it towards that direction."
Seems to me by your comments that was your intention.
"There is PLENTY of material out there for you to read on the subject."
Good move on your part so you don't have to answer the question.
Dawg, please do a new article. I am sick of looking at Tim Rogers face every time I check your blog. This guy is disgusting!!!
re: "In What Room Did Your Father Molest Your Sister?"
Respond by asking:
"In the same room your dad molested you and your sister, of course, silly!"
"How often do you beat your wife, Tim?"
"Exactly how many narcotics did your mom take while pregnant with you?"
Anonymous January 6, 2014 at 5:38 PM
No, we were asked a question, and I gave an honest answer. If you don't like the fact that I am unwilling to help you hijack this thread; TOUGH!!! That is YOUR problem, not mine.
Calvinism is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT regarding Ergun Caner's lies. Unfortunately for his defenders, that is about all they have.
Guys, the EC issue has nothing to do with Reformed Theology. Caner despises Calvinism and he has made this perfectly clear (referring to them as the 5 points of hate, Calvin as the butcher of Geneva, etc...). James White, one of the most vocal and well-known critics of EC is a Reformed Baptist, so Lumpkins, Rogers and Caner are trying to distract by claiming this is just those nasty Calvinists and Muslims persecuting poor ole Dr. Caner. Of course, anyone who has bothered to watch the videos, listen to his claims and then compare these with the undisputed documented facts about Caner know that he spent the better part of a decade lying through his teeth, capitalizing on American evangelical fear of Islam and pretending to be a champion of the faith. He claimed to have debated all kinds of Muslims apologists, once in a mosque in Arabic, no less! He claimed to have been trained in jihad in Egypt, Beirut and to have immigrated to the US as a missionary in 1978. He made these and many other fantastical claims about himself over a period of several years in many different venues. Why? Because post 9-11 American Christians wanted a hero, and Dr. Caner saw the need and stepped in to fill the role.
Now he knows this, Lumpkins knows this and Rogers know this. Any impartial person looking at the situation, seeing the recordings of him speaking and then comparing what he said with what his bio in the BPC published bio knows that one of these things is not like the other. And since they know he lied, and that ECs critics are telling the truth, instead of admitting their sin, they attack the messenger. Go after James White, go after his sister, call into question his credentials, try to dig SOME dirt up on the guy and throw it into the air to try to distract people from the plain, simple, obvious fact that Dr. Caner created a completely fake persona so he could benefit personally.
Now I happen to be a Calvinist (presbyterian, not baptist) but I honestly don't see what that has to do with anything. I know plenty of Arminian baptist brethren who are disgusted with Caner's lies and his in-your-face refusal to repent (if any of you think has repented, look at his recent Tweets where he emphatically - ALL CAPS - denies any and all charges against him and makes the audacious claim that he has been completely exhonerated...by...whom? And why were you let go from LU? hmm).
So look, this has nothing to do with the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Canons of Dordt, the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Geneva, Servetus or anything of the sort. This has to do with a supposed man of God who told blatant falsehoods about himself to further his prestige and career. He was found out, and is now trying to do damage control. The fact that he and his lackeys can actually look at the mountain of evidence exposing his guilt and claim he is innocent (even suggesting that the videos were somehow altered) speaks volumes about him and those who defend him.
And Timothy Rogers, wow. His disgusting comments speak VOLUMES about him. He is a disgrace to the Body of Christ and has no business standing behind a pulpit. How his congregation can stand to listen to him after this is absolutely beyond me. I wonder if the good folks at Ebenezer Baptist Church have seen the antics of their beloved 'pastor'.
Keep up the good work Watchdog. If people like you, White and others don't do what you do, predators like these will continue to be a blight on the Body of Christ.
I DO NOT understand and will never understand how trustees who were pastors, educators and businessmen willfully voted for Ergun Caner as BPC president. The You Tube videos are impossible to miss if you take ten minutes and do some research.
He claims to be born in two different places.....and it's on video......on more than one video. How could they say they vetted him when he publicly lied? Is lying now a positive part of the vetting process?
Again, it's corrupt down here......very corrupt. We've seen the corruption up close and personal and its tentacles reach into most every area of leadership and law enforcement.
He'll fit right in with the locals. I wish I had a different report.
A local politician in Indian Trail, NC, recently made some news. Indian Trail is not that large of a place, so I wonder if this guy is a member of Rogers’ church??
N.C. Council Member Resigns in Klingon
What would Worf say about David Waddell's resignation from the Indian Trail City Council in North Carolina?
Waddell, who is stepping aside Jan. 31, tendered his notice this week in Klingon, the language of the fictional humanoid warrior species from Star Trek.
The Charlotte Observer reports the lawmaker's letter to Indian Trail Mayor Michael Alvarez was meant as a joke but to be safe he included a translation using Bing.com.
"Perhaps today is a good day (to) resign," reads the last translated line, a riff on a Klingon proverb often repeated by Worf on Star Trek: Next Generation. (Non-Trekkies: The line from the show is actually "perhaps today is a good day to die.")
Waddell, a plumber by profession, intends to continue attending council meetings and speaking out as a concerned citizen. Plus, he told the Charlotte newspaper, he wants to devote time to mounting a write-in campaign for the Constitution Party's nomination for the U.S. Senate against Sen. Kay Hagan, D-N.C.
As for Alvarez, he wasn't pleased. "It's an embarrassment for Indian Trail, and it's an embarrassment for North Carolina," the mayor is quoted as saying. But Gene Roddenberry must approve.
Why is it that anytime a Calvinite (those that worship John Calvin, the documented mass murderer of at least 59 people instead of Jesus Christ) is around everything has to involve Calvinism ? For the record I'm a ONE POINT Calvinist, I believe in the total depravity of Calvinists.
Here is a sincere thought and question for you Christians: If Ergun Caner is false.(And he is obviously a liar and con man.) And those supporting and enabling him are false and con men. Isn't it very possible that the gospel he preaches is also false and a con? Wouldn't that explain why he still has supporters? They all know he is false, but they are all accomplices. Maybe God really doesn't have men of god that speak for him and collect money on his behalf. Maybe Christianity is just another false religion like the rest of them. Maybe that donkey didn't really talk. Maybe I don't have to give money to the local congregation where I attend with my family in order to be a Christian, or to be a man, or to be blessed and to avoid a curse. Maybe these guys lie about their past...so what. Isn't it worse to lie about finances and eternal damnation. Maybe the whole harlot religious/church institution is false? And Ergun Caner and those that support him are proof of this? Just wondering. A Former Believer
Yeah, I believe Ergun did all those things. Just like I believe Jesus did all those things. Its all true. You have to have faith. Believe! "smirk"
"If Ergun Caner is false.(And he is obviously a liar and con man.) And those supporting and enabling him are false and con men. Isn't it very possible that the gospel he preaches is also false and a con?"
I'm not sure I understand your implication here. Are you saying that because some Christians are hypocrites that makes Christ's words untrue? I'm not seeing the logical connection between the two. Please explain.
Here is the logic: All religions have elements that are utterly untrue and even ridiculously untrue to those outside of their sect/denomination/religion. We don't believe them. But the followers of those specific teachers/preachers/pastors do. Some even brag they believe it ALL from Genesis to Maps. Others say if you don't believe it ALL, then you shouldn't believe ANY of it. So my implication is this: You can't know (or truly believe) in Christ's words outside of what these men are telling you he said. Or what they are telling you is in the original manuscripts translated from Greek, about what someone wrote down that he said hundreds of years after the fact. So, we have to trust them, and trust the book. But if you can't trust them (and you can't), then how can you trust what they say was said and therefore, what is true?
I would never doubt the word's of Christ. But so far, I haven't seen or heard him. Only what others say he said. And I don't believe or trust those guys telling me this. So, short answer, I personally believe, in my opinion, it (the church, religious systems, etc.) is all fake. A con to manipulate and control, to gain power and wealth.
I believe in God of course. I see his awesome creation. But the rest, is just men and religion. Guys like Caner. :) A Former Believer
Thanks for the clarification. But to be totally honest with you I still don't understand how Caner being a liar relates to Christ's teachings.
Unless you believe that all Christians are hypocrites. You aren't making that claim are you?
"You can't know (or truly believe) in Christ's words outside of what these men are telling you he said."
Who are "these men?" Are you referring to the disciples? The men who lived in poverty, were thrown in jail, left for dead, and finally martyred? How did they gain (like Caner did) by preaching the Gospel.
And, of course, they were not alone. There were the church fathers and Roman historians that corroborated the gospels.
And then there is also "the creation" - as you mentioned - also in Romans 1.
In addition archealogy has found nearly 100% of the people, places, coins, cities, animals, etc mentioned in the gospels.
And the Bible has a manuscript trail like no other book in antiquity. Over 20,000 manuscripts going all the way back to within a few decades of the crucifiction.
No other book of antiquity even comes close to that kind of historical reliability and yet those documents are considered trustworthy.
Seems like a double-standard to me.
After studying the issue considerably I've rejected Calvinism, at least the point of Limited Atonement. There are passages of Scripture you just can't reconcile with the notion that God predestined a large portion of the human race for eternal damnation. The foundation of the doctrine of Limited Atonement is Paul's Letter to the Romans; without Romans, the doctrine falls. Frankly, I'm not sure exactly what Paul is talking about there, but I think there is ample room to reasonably believe he was not referring to the entire human race, for all time. Furthermore, I could much sooner believe that those men who compiled the New Testament Canon simply erred by including a heretical book when they included Romans, than to accept, love and worship a God who creates most people for the purpose of suffering in eternal fire for eternity. I think it was Wesley who said that Calvinism "makes God out worse than the devil." I agree. Which would be worse? The tormentor or the one who signed the victim over to the tormentor from the very start?
Every religion on earth is entered in by an act of man's free will. The gospel is the only message on earth that has to be accomplished by an act of a sovereign and Almighty God. You can come to the Jehovah witnesses, the Mormons, even the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc. by a simple choice. You will not, however come to Christ that way.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
I love how people hide behind the, "I'm not a Calvinist", statement, yet refuse to address the doctrines from a biblical standpoint. It is far easier to say, "I am against John Calvin", than it is to be honest and say, I am against the clear teaching of scripture though. So I don't blame you free wills for hiding behind John Calvin. It makes you sound much less like an unbeliever to say it that way.
No other book of antiquity even comes close to that kind of historical reliability and yet those documents are considered trustworthy.
Seems like a double-standard to me.
January 10, 2014 at 3:35 PM
Your facts are not true. There is not even ONE piece of evidence that any of the people ever existed. Nor even one artifact (the Holy Grail? The Ark of the Covenant? Noah's Ark?)exists. Period.
In any event, those "other" historical documents don't claim a talking donkey, or that the sun stood still, or that dead people come back to life, etc.
You can have the last word. :)
Someon way up the line turned this whole thread into a Calvinist debate, which has nothing to do with the original post.
Solving nothing, changing no hearts and minds, looking foolish.
Business as usual in the SBC.
Former Believer said, "Isn't it very possible that the gospel he preaches is also false and a con?"
Former Believer, how can a man's dishonesty invalidate God's word?
"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).
Caner says that the videos being used as evidence against him are edited and this is may be the reason he is so "unrepentant", so clearing his name is very simple.
If he truly is innocent and he did not say these things and the videos of him speaking are edited, simply provide access to all the unedited videos as proof. I do not think this should be an issue since he is protecting his name and proving his innocence. He then also has stable grounds for legal action.
Can his supporters help gather this evidence to prove his innocence? Seriously, this is doable and would end all harassment of him as there would be no further reason to harass him.
Roger's apology should be noted here:
"I first called him out on this in a crude manner, for which I am sorry I made such statements. One should not make light of something as serious as child molestation. I did do that and for the pain that brought to those who are victims of child molestation I am sorry."
Former Believer said, "Isn't it very possible that the gospel he preaches is also false and a con?"
Does the fact that there are quacks in medicine keep you from going to the Doctor?
So what he apologized!! That's all and he just moves on.
"someone way up the line turned this whole thread into a Calvinist debate"
Really? The WHOLE THREAD? I don't see what you are seeing. And by the way, who is that "someone?"
"Your facts are not true."
Facts are always true.
Not sure who you are referring to when you say "the people." Are you referring to the people in the entire Bible, Gospels, not clear.
100% of the people, coins, animals, cities, etc in the book of Luke (for example) have been found through archaeology and other historical documents. If the author was that careful about secondary issues, wouldn't he also be just as careful with the main message?
Critics of the Bible often claimed that Pilate was a fanciful character that was invented to make the story more interesting.
That was until they found a plaque with his name and title in the 1960's.
As a counter example, none of the people, coins, towns, animals, etc found in the book of Mormon have ever been found through archaeology or history and there is no manuscript trail.
Perhaps you have the two religions confused.
On a slightly more on topic note, anybody get déjà vu looking at MSNBC's defense of Wendy Davis compared to the defense of Ergun Caner?
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