2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is god-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The following bible verses speak for themselves:
Exodus 35:2 – " For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."
Ezekiel 23:11-21 - There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 23:1 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.
THIS ONE FOR KIM DAVIS AND MIKE HUCKABEE:
Deuteronomy 17:12 Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge...must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Luke 14:26 – " If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."
Isaiah 13:15-18 - Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
Leviticus 25:44-46 - However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Leviticus 21:17-24 - "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
And this one for bloggers?
Deuteronomy 13:6-11 - Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."
Are you aware that these types of verses are in the Bible? Regardless of how you might rationalize these types of verses, the point is that the Bible is full of such killings, rapes, genocide and infanticide, not to mention the ultimate damnation to hell of every man, woman, and child that does NOT "get saved." It's not Good News and while the overall message of redemption in Christ Jesus is a hopeful one, it becomes Bad News when perverted and corrupted by religious men and fanatical followers. And most importantly, don't demand I read it, believe it all, and put it into practice!
I have a friend who lost a testicle to cancer...I assume he can't go to church anymore?
( Once again, pick and chose theology instead of common sense.....Grace folks....Grace. )
Watchdog, I have read you blog for years, and have appreciated your insights in the past. But now, I don't know what has happened. It seems that you have overreacted to the abuses in the evangelical church (sex abuse, cover ups, power hungry pastors, etc.). It seems that you are now almost borderline irrational. Your posts make little sense. There does exist in evangelicalism a grace filled, Scripture honoring, non-power seeking message of Jesus. What you are doing is not part of it.
"the point is that the Bible is full of such killings, rapes, genocide and infanticide, not to mention the ultimate damnation to hell of every man, woman, and child that does "get saved."
Hardly, again consider the "full" counsel of God when these verses are mentioned. And a great point to make with stating such verses the danger of cutting and paste theology. Too often those there are some who state these verses in a Marcion way. In a previous post by someone else, there was mentioned of the courts being involved in the oversight and sought to grant mercy and not to be quick to judge. Here lies the problem with things like church discipline. If there was an issue continual sin with a member. The assembly in the spirit of correction is to gently restore (Galatians 5) and to be consistent with all sins. If the member is the one who does not listen and continues to be arrogant/belligerent/bullish about their behaviors then obviously the course if to have them to leave. Thus here is one of the issues I have with a previous post here. Let me make my point....Did you not know how many windows of small business mom and pop stores that got smashed when Prop 8 past in Calif? Or the banishment of dialogue and bullying by a judge? Or the vulnerability of assault children or women in transgender bathroom policies. Christians should indeed speak up for another if they are being bullied. Also, when considering the life span of males in alternative lifestyles is rarely past the age of 60 much could be said in love. That is the main problem I see, that is rarely much is clarified under the intent of love. Did not Christ uphold Torah bt clarified its intention in love? If he advocated breaking laws within Torah with the Jews he could have been convicted as a false teacher. He instead showed their corruption with the interpretation of the Torah (Matthew 23). His counsel was one that sought the intent of the Law to Love should indeed win. Yes, Kim Davis was not a great spokesperson in this with her background but it could have been anybody else.
"Most importantly, I should encourage many to read it, believe it all" but to all consider the "full" counsel of God before falling into presumption.
Wanted to add to last post, here lies the problem more often with church discipline and attitudes that come with it is exactly the issue of arrogance by the discipliner rather than the disciplinee. The height in which every member has fallen before they came to Christ MUST NOT BE FORGOTTEN! Also in knowing that true fruit is Spirit born. All Glory is to be the LORD's.
I agree my posts are not focusing on the message of Jesus. Not yet. First, I want to make clear how counter productive it is for fundamentalist religious fanatics to demand and insist on total reliance on the Bible as inerrant and infallible and that you have to believe ALL or NONE of it. That kind of stance is divisive and hurts the message of Jesus, hurts our country, hurts our family, is hurting the generation of would be Christians. I agree the message of Jesus is the only hope we have. I put my faith in him. That makes me a Christian. Devoting my faith to a religious book is dangerous. Arbitrarily applying that book to real life can be dangerous. Most Christians understand this. My posts are directed to the fundamentalist fanatics that are so caught up in their religious dogma about the scriptures, that they are driving people away from the message of Jesus. I do plan to put up the simple, beautiful teachings of Jesus, but only after it is clear that I can do that without also having to believe all this other nonsense I am posting about now.
Church discipline used to mean an Inquisition. Or burning someone at the stake. Witch trials were church discipline. The verses on this post show church discipline teaching that the offender "must be put to death." Thankfully, most sane people don't take their religion that seriously today. Or if they do, they thankfully no longer have the power to do so.
Those of you in the evangelical world. You do not see it. Those " outside" do, and you are losing your witness.
Take a good look at yourself. Your fiefdom is crumbling. People are waking up, they are turning away from you, not Christ, and those who don't know Christ, well, as Ricky said to Lucy...." You got some splainin' to do."
"Watchdog, I have read you blog for years, and have appreciated your insights in the past. But now, I don't know what has happened. It seems that you have overreacted to the abuses in the evangelical church (sex abuse, cover ups, power hungry pastors, etc.). It seems that you are now almost borderline irrational. Your posts make little sense. There does exist in evangelicalism a grace filled, Scripture honoring, non-power seeking message of Jesus. What you are doing is not part of it."
Sadly, I must agree. I have truly enjoyed and learned from this blog for the past several years. But I am not going to be influenced any further by what seems to be (as said above) an over-reaction to your bad situations in the past, blaming the victim (being ugly toward those who are being misled), and oversimplified, dogmatic, incorrect interpretation of scripture. This post being an example of the latter.
I know you are an intelligent man from reading your posts in the past, so I have a hard time believing that you don't understand the difference between commands given by God directly to a theocracy and the new covenant that we are obliged to follow today.
By reading your blog I have changed my position on the tithe and other issues as well. I appreciate your writings over the years.
Sorry to say I will not be around to read what all of this is leading up to.
Since the premise is flawed, I imagine the conclusion will be as well.
Just putting scripture up. What's the flawed premise? Where is the over reaction? Just putting up scripture. I'm not interpreting anything. Your pastor is the one that is over reacting, misinterpreting scripture, and deciding who is and who is not a Christian. Lamenting over our country because of Supreme Court decisions, narrowing the parameters of who can be a Christian, insisting the Bible is inerrant and that one must believe it all or none. It's sickening. I'm just posting Bible verses. You seem to be offended by the Word of God.
Some good verses to remind us that God's ways are not men's ways. Re: the hate word in Luke it allows us to realize we belong to God and that our love for Him overshadows our human relationships. He is to be first not second or third. Just look at how some parents teach their children error regarding salvation through Jesus Christ and using that belief to either cut them off from fellowship or killing them in the name of their god. Maybe we can hear from some pastors on some of these verses and see what insight they might have to reveal the truths of scripture. Keep up the good work Tom as you make people THINK!!
Tom, I would assert that to an extent, you do not understand the context of the Levitical law within the overall message of the Bible. Yes, many of the provisions of that law seem terribly bizarre to us today. But thankfully the Bible makes it clear in the New Testament that this law no longer applies. I believe the harshness of this law was for the purpose of making it even more clear to us what Jesus did for us. Come on, no one out there is preaching that Leviticus should be strictly followed today. Not even Orthodox Jews today believe this. I don't think that even the Pharisees of Jesus' day completely adhered to it. So this is a straw man. No one is claiming that these scriptures are commands to us today, and Christians are not being "hypocritical" and are not "cherry-picking", as some assert, by not following these laws. The Bible makes it clear that they don't apply to Christians. That's why I get frustrated when I hear the tired old "OK the Bible condemns homosexuality, well it also condemns eating shrimp, so why don't you crusade against eating shrimp?" The answer is because the New Testament, separate and apart from Leviticus, condemns homosexuality but expressly states that eating foods that were "unclean" under the old law is OK.
Then, there is your take on some of the stories of the OT that relate supernatural events. I would respectfully disagree with you characterization of them as "nonsense" just because they may not be factual. I personally don't believe everything in the OT is factual, but that doesn't detract from the divine truth of the stories. It really doesn't matter whether Balaam's donkey really spoke or not, the moral of the story is clear: when you disobey God, He often will make it clear to you that you are doing so. Likewise, it really doesn't matter if the sun actually stood still. The message is clear: God looks out after His people.
I will say, however, that I believe your rejection of any of the core tenets of Christianity contained in the NT is another matter entirely, in my estimation. In this post you seem to disparage the notion that unsaved people face eternal damnation. Do you not believe this? I think that's problematic because the Bible reports Jesus Himself as saying this. If you believe this, then what do you believe Jesus saves people from?
I agree with you. All I did was post a few bible verses. And as to your last paragraph, all I know is I'm trusting in Jesus and Jesus alone for my salvation, and I leave all the theological arguments to the seminarians and others of like mind. Trust in Jesus is what I do and is what I'm sure of.
Oh, and if all of that OT law doesn't apply why do so many pastors roll out Malachi 3:10 and say it applies?
Exactly.....it's the pick and chose theology....Malachi 3:10....the American church. It's all about the " Benjamin's."
As to why so many pastors use Malachi 3:10, you've done a great job of covering that over the years on here. I have nothing to add.
I had meaning to comment on this for a while. Now is a good time as any.
ALL of Christianity is in me trusting in Christ and this is all faith. There is no reasoning, rationality or science or magic involved here. And this faith in Christ is at the edge of unconscious and conscious. This is also where the rubber meets the road. LOT of the working of the Spirit is in the unconscious.
Mind you science can not explain of language, thought, will, Creativity, morality, ethics, conscious, subconscious ... barely.
I understand lot of fundies like to manipulate and control their pew sitters for they do not trust The Spirit. Or they do not understand how the Spirit operates. That is the simple truth.
BTW Wade has written lot of posts on this matter on his blog.
I want to link two scientific posts that deal with the above subjects science has problems with. BTW they appear boring but are very relevant to the series of posts Watchdog (Tom Rich) has been posting.
Hope this comment comes out of moderation.
Science, Mind, and Limits of Understanding | Noam Chomsky
Noam Chomsky - "The machine, the ghost, and the limits of understanding" | YouTube
Ramesh - I don't think readers, or myself, are trying to come to grips with many of the subjects you are linking to. Not to say those aren't important or interesting. They are. And there is much to debate and consider. But my purpose is not to go there. I am simply trying to get otherwise decent, loving people who are Christians to not let "religion" or dogma, or theology overshadow the love of Jesus. I am simply trying to get those fringe, fundamentalist religious fanatics to understand that I don't have to believe the Bible is inerrant to be a Christian. That I don't have to believe it ALL or NONE in order to trust Jesus for my salvation. That a guy who doesn't believe it all, but is faithful to his wife and lives as Jesus would have him live the best he can is better then having a guy who says he believes it all, but is an adulterer, child molestor, charlatan, etc. I want these fundamentalits to realize that by their insisting that I (and others) must believe their dogmatic stances or we can't be Christians, is hurting the gospel message, hurting families, and hurting the next generation of would be believers.
By the way, imagine if these fundamentalists could convice Muslims, or Mormons, or JWs or Catholics that they are wrong. Wouldn't it be easier to convince these devout followers that what they believe is false if you only had to prove that ONE thing in their sacred texts was false. Wouldn't that be great if they agreed that if you can show them ONE thing about their religion that is false, they would throw the rest of it out? Of course that is much easier then convincing them their entire faith is wrong. But yet that is exactly what fundies do to their children and spouses. They tell them that if they find any part that is not true, they must throw the rest of their faith and beliefs out too. I still can't understand why they don't see how harmful this is. And their influence in society keeps dropping.
Watchdog: Thanks for the clarification. My thinking gets colored by what I am currently working on.
Only those of us who were raised a Fundie and were blessed with the common sense to get out can truly appreciate watch dogs posts. I understand and have the same discussions with my family of the dangers their ways have caused. I have been the black sheep for some time and told I will raise Godless heathens for not having my kids in church early. Get them while they are young to brainwash? No thanks. I would love to return to church but not until some massive changes are made and the $$ and hate taken out. Abusing the bible to get what you want or control the masses just disgusts me. Keep it up watchdog I know exactly where you are going and it's been a great place for me.
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