Mac's house backs up to hole #12, so perhaps the back 9 will include a quickie tour of Mac's million dollar, 5600 square foot home. Then these missionaries can see what they could have had if they had just stayed here in the states and tried to become a megachurch pastor...and our members participating in the tournament can see what their tithes and offerings they give to God for the furtherance of the gospel help pay for!
The tournament involves prizes and giveaways...rumor is that one of the prizes is a one-night stay at the Brunson "Lincoln Bedroom", with a private tour of the Brunson office suite at the church. All participants in the tournament get 10% off any exhibit booth at the 2009 Pastor's Conference and 50% off any Mac Brunson books and coffee mugs. A drawing will be held for all hole sponsors for a 30 second commercial to be played in the middle of Mac's Easter Sunday message next April.
Here is the information from the FBC Jax website showing the golf outing costs and promotional fees. Watchdog will be there, as he is a near-scratch golfer and is looking forward to playing on Mac's home course.
62 comments:
Another outstanding performance by Mac. Here is Watchdog's cold-hearted review of Mac's sermon this morning:
1. He did address his trip to Tennessee. He let us know his wife went with him, so that is good that our pastor's wife on salary has been on vacation for 3 of the past 4 weeks. Amen! Ain't God good? What is her salary, and how much vacation does she get? Does Steve Clifton, Dan Elkins, John Blount and Shelly Norman and other ministers get as much vacation time as Honey and Mac?
2. He did show us a horizontal thermometer chart to show us that we are way short of getting the million dollars needed for repairs. And there is now a chiller in the middle school building that is out according to Mac, probably another $150k for that. So PRAISE GOD it looks like people are NOT ponying up the extortion money that Mac is wanting - last month he coldly and arrogantly told us if we want to stay out of debt we would give the million dollars. We hope he finds it in the current budget, because we already gave the money and he spent it on other non-budgeted priorities. He told us God can do it...yes he can, in fact Mac refuses to see that God ALREADY did it in that he has moved in the hearts of God's people to give to the budget each year for the upkeep and maintenance of our facilities. Thank you God, for moving in the hearts of your people to give so generously. We pray not for more money in that budget, but we pray for our pastor to find the money that we have given and that you, God, provided through your people. As our pastor has preached to us: "the answer is not more money, the answer is discipline" Amen brother.
3. Mac told us a moving story about how seniors are just blessed by his preaching of the word up there at this conference he was at. He said he was "preaching up there to Seniors"...which means "I earned a handsome stipend for about 4 hours of work Monday-Thurs recycling my sermons for the elederly who paid hundreds of dollars for a conference". Ain't God good?
4. Mac boldly declared how concerned he is about the "emerging church movement"...and "easy believism"...more on that later (it was classic!). This is like hearing Barney Frank tell us how worried he is that a tax and spender like Obama might get elected. Puh-LEASE!!!
5. And right along with #4 Mac further explained his legalistic views on church membership...more on that later too. This is a good warning for new church members - they need to think twice before subjecting themselves to the abuse and legalism of Mac Brunson.
6. And he explained that God is not sitting around waiting to "zap" us, directly contradicting his sermon this summer that God IS waiting to "zap" us. More on this later.
7. Mac told us we were "ridden hard and put up wet" last night....speak for yourself buddy.
But he did work himself up into a lather...it was one heckuva performance. He never disappoints when it comes to theatrics. He is a great performer on stage. Encore, Encore!!
Why is Mac trying to distance himself from the "emerging church" movement?
That is so laughable.
Like Barney Frank and Ellen Degeneres trying to distance themselves from the pro-gay agenda.
Mac's very first move as pastor, even before he inked the deed on his $300,000 gift for the tract of land in Deerwood was to bring Maurilio Amorim of the A-Group to do our church marketing. Maurilio is part of the emerging church movement. Look at who his clients are. Look at the church he is in. His pastor was quoted in the Wall Street Journal as saying his competition was the coffee shop down the street.
Don't buy it church. Mac is feeling the heat BIG TIME.
WD, Mac is not referring to the "emerging church" defined as churches that are upwardly focused. He is referring to a post modern movement known as the "emergent church" born the brain child of Brian McLaren and the likes. Many authors have treated the distinctives of this movement that rocks the foundations of epistimology.
This golf scramble / missions conference is just plain disgusting. I doubt that someone like Jesus would be welcome at an event like this, but then I doubt He'd go if invited.
"This golf scramble / missions conference is just plain disgusting. I doubt that someone like Jesus would be welcome at an event like this, but then I doubt He'd go if invited."
But Jesus went to dine with Tax Collectors and other sinners, to bring the Word of God to them.
Of course, if the missionaries are all really bad sinners, Jesus would probably go and play Golf with them. I am assuming, even if they are not really bad sinners, but sinners like the rest of us, he might go and play golf with them.
But I do not know, how he would pay the entrance fee, though. Jesus would have to do a miracle, like the time, of the coin in the fish, they used to pay taxes.
Perhaps Mac will park his red pick-up in the back yard facing the fairway so the missionaries can see how humble his mode of transportation is. Of course the garage door will be tightly closed so they cannot see his and Honey's actual modes of transportation.
Didn't someone just advise they have actually smelled the mold at FBC. If so, someone needs to be accountable for exposing members and children to the dangers of exposure.
This should have been a priority, not the television ministry. Or did FBC Jax sign a contract for a certain length of time thereby committing a "block of non-budgeted funds" to cover this obligation.
It's possible, Pastor Mac might show off his new home to the missionaries. To point out that, if they did well in the Kingdom of God, they can also aspire to have homes like that.
But honestly, I do not fault him for having a large home. That is his choice. I personally would live in a smaller and humbler home, even if I was making as much as Pastor Mac does. But that is just my personal preference.
Also, I have to credit Debbie Brunson, being a smart lady. If she is handling Pastor Mac's finances, she must be smart. Trust me, she is not all smiles. She has steel beneath those smiles.
Maybe, maybe, Pastor Mac is getting tax benefits, if the Missions activities takes place at his house. It's a guess. I am assuming he is filing taxes as a self employed person.
Someone did mention it.
I have never heard anyone say anything about mold.
But it stands to reason: if you take a building that needs roof repairs, and then the building is not weather proofed and takes on water from a storm, there will be mildew. Especially a building that probably has wide temperature variations during the week as the bulk of the use is 2 days per week.
But if there is mold in the building, Mac won't tell anyone. The marketing mentality will have to keep that hush-hush.
Mac referred to the "emergant church movement" and used the words "easy believism" and characterized it by churches that are interested in just getting numbers.
Can someone who knows, explain what the "emergent church movement" is and is this the same as "purpose driven"? If they are not the same, what is the difference? What are examples of "emergant church"? Would that be Osteen? What about Andy Stanley?
Readers - below is an anon post that a church member posted in a thread from last week, so I'm pasting it here in its entirety for visibility:
--------------
I have read your feelings about our pastor from time to time and believe you cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit. As I recall, the Holy Spirit has been left as our Helper, guide & conscience.It is best to leave the work you are trying to do to the Holy Spirit. Obviously, no matter how many readers you get the Spirit of God can work miracles not you.
Oh, I am sure you will not heed this writers voice but you must remember that YOU will have to give an account of every idle word you utter.(Matt.12:36)
Reflect on this morning's service for just a second. Do you for one second believe those folks who got up in front of the whole church & revealed the hurts in their lives give a hoot of the anger & insensitivity you spew on a regular basis? I think not! As Dr. Brunson said this morning,If you are a Christian you will be attacked. It is a shame that when he said that I thought of YOU first. Wow, you will have to answer to God for the things you put in people's mind EVEN if you think you are doing the church a great service in trying to topple a man's ministry.
What I have yet to figure out is, if you are so dissatisfied with our pastor why don't you leave the church?
I will leave you with the words of Jesus Himself" But, whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."
How many children of God are YOU causing to stumble (in their giving for one example)?
You still want to play the Holy Spirit?
anon
The purpose driven and emergent hijacking of Christianity
The Emergent Church movement?
Now a new name has popped up and their movement has been endorsed by Rick Warren and other leaders. It is called the emerging church movement or the emergent church movement. The philosophy behind this growing movement is that purpose driven churches were designed to appeal to baby boomers but now they need churches that will appeal to the post modern younger generations. The emerging churches will be more experience orientated and will rely more on story telling on Sunday then on teaching scripture. Some in this movement have called the teaching of Christian doctrine divisive and say that everything has to be redefined in the light of modernism. After all, the post modern generation have no moral absolutes and neither will these churches. One should wonder what they base their Christianity on? I will tell you. They base their Christianity on a Jesus conjured up in the crystal ball of their own mind. They embrace mystical experiences, feelings, and goose bumps instead of biblical truths! Their beliefs are very compatible with those of Eastern religions. Jesus just happens to be their own personal Guru.
I'm really not trying to be the Holy Spirit Anon.
And I think those people at the end of the service are genuine, humble Christians and I thought it was very meaningful for them to communicate to us in that way.
As far as "anger and insensitivity" that I spew - you would do well to listen to your pastor. His anger and insensitivity comes forth in almost every service...and he uses your money and our church name to do it.
Don't be led astray by Mac's teaching on suffering. He says that Christians will be attacked...but that in no way means that Christians who are attacked are being attacked wrongly for their beliefs! Yes, Mac is being "attacked" if you want to call it that. But he is confused, he has convinced himself wrongly that the opposition he is facing is proof positive that he is in God's will! That is dangerous and deluded thinking! Need I remind you that for years and years there were people trying to "attack" Bob Grey, and Grey used those accusations to garner sympathy and support from his enablers - while the "attackers" were belittled and ridiculed.
You tell me that when you hear that Christians will be attacked you think of me. Well remember this...history, even recent history, shows that when there is an abuser in the midst of a church it is often those who first try to expose it that are wrongly attacked. Just look at Grey and Gilyard.
My thoughts on the above Anon post.
Whenever a Church does Card Testimonies, it's always powerful and moving.
I can clearly tell you, that WD is not acting as the Holy Spirit and trying to condemn Pastor Mac or bring him to humility in Christ.
Only The Holy Spirit can do this.
All WD can do, is to educate people about "abuses" or "wrongs" done. That is all, he can do.
I don't recall who it was that mentioned the book "Spending God's Money" by Mary Branson, but it sounded interesting so I bought it. I'm only half-way through it yet on nearly every page I find myself thinking "just like Mac Brunson!". I strongly encourage everyone posting here, especially those of FBCJax, to read this book and then ask yourself if maybe Watchdog has some valid concerns here. If I were attending your church, I would ask for a meeting with the leaders/pastor, tell them my concerns and then leave the church. Maybe it's time some local reporter or news outlet did a story on things there? Read the book and ask yourself how similar are the shenanigans at NAMB to your church today. Keep doing what you do so very well, Watchdog - you're on the right trail and sooner or later people are going to see what you've been saying for themselves.
D
Some of you are forgetting that corporations over spend just like churches. They over extend their budgets and fail to make payroll, have huge layoffs, some file for chapter 11 or they will be forced into chapter 7 by their banking groups. This economy has about ten million employees without a job and its still growing. The democrats in congress caused it but have smoothly claimed and sold it to the American voters that its Bush's fault. If Obama wins you ain't seen anything yet. If they have the president, and both houses they will spend, spend, and spend. They will not care anything about balancing the budget. The taxpayers will have it rougher than when they had George Bush. You won't be able to retire until you are 75 rather than 62-65.
Hopefully, the church will make the necessary repairs to the buildings and hold on to all the rest of their cash as they will really be needing it. I'm worried about the emergent church also, but I'm more concerned with disappearing churches. Each new fad that comes along creates a new threat to the church. Rev.22:vs. 20: "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly; Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
If this recession last much longer a lot of Christian schools will have to close as very few will be able to afford sending their kids to a private one. Bad leadership always ruins a church whether its the pastor, trustees, or the deacons. In this case it's all three. Just my thoughts.
Those attending tonight...
...don't you get a bit concerned when the pastor from his pulpit talks about worrying, and says that "worrying never built a church", and "worrying never saved a soul"...and then that "remove all worrying deacons from the deacon board"....I mean what is that? Its such an unbalanced view of reality. Certainly some adults at our church, some men with spines SHOULD BE VERY WORRIED that our facilities need a million in repairs and we don't have the money, yet we had the money when Mac wanted to be on TV and wanted to start a school and wanted to build an office suite for himself, Honey, and the dogs.
Yep, Mac, we're all VERY WORRIED over your poor leadership.
His message and tone tonight about "worrying deacons" can well be interpreted that any deacons who dare express any concern over his poor leadership will be removed. Mac expects total devotion to his plan.
Sorry Mac, but I'm a worrier, AND A COMPLAINER...and I'm not on the deacon board. And I'll keep blogging and you can't stop me. And more people will see and hear your ridiculous statements, your abusive preaching, and your "Rod Parsley" antics and your "John Hagee" theatrics.
Maybe YOU should start worrying Mac. So much of what you preached tonight you should have been preaching into a mirror.
Mold:
There was a time lately, that in the ADMIN building on the second floor at the reception desk there was an AREA FILTRATION MACHINE. One of those electronic devices that filtered the air. You could smell the dampness in the air. I am not sure if it was a mold smell but it was obvious from the presence of the filter machine that they had a problem.
Again, the pastor using intimidation and threats to grind his authority into the very soul of anyone he does not see eye to eye with, or who possibly questions his actions. I thought actions of this nature were illegal. Are you sure we are in America?
The pastor needs to change from his Santa hat to one more fitting. Use your imagination .
Realistically the bad economy might reign in Pastor Mac and his grandiose plans. From BBC (Bellevue), their receipts are down 15%, and might be further lower in the next 6 months. My guess is fbcjax income will be down 20% for the next year.
They need to scale down projects and tighten their spending.
WD and his readers contribution to this funding shortfall is very, very miniscule.
It looks like Pastor Mac is disregarding some of the deacons who are voicing questions. If he gets rid of those people questioning the spending priorities, Pastor Mac is making a BIG mistake.
I understand faith is a major part of Christian life. For myself, I try to live by faith. Lot of times, I fail. Here, good governance, following good advice and questioning spending priorities are not a bad thing. They are not undermining Pastor Mac's authority. If Pastor Mac was truly humble, he would welcome such questioning.
Pastor Mac, eventually your own foolishness and your blindness will overtake you. I would like to advice you to let go, but you won't let go.
You talk the talk, but can you do the walk?
Watchdog,
the post by THY PEACE at 6:08 was one that I have seen before. The point of enterest, among many, was the point that Rick Warren, Mac's friend, endorsed the EMERGENT CHURCH MOVEMENT.
IS THERE A PROBLEM HERE?
The reason that Warren supports this movement is these two movements, PD and Emergent, are very similar.
DRESS DOWN
ROCK BANDS
STORY TELLING
MORE LIKE NONDENOMINATIONAL
BREATH PRAYERS
SOUNDS LIKE FBCJAX DOES'T IT?
Well we do not have the BREATH PRAYERS YET! But they may be coming.
Nice research THY PEACE.
We have seen this for TWO YEARS.
The Bible has a lot of facts regarding bad judgement. 1. The woman caught in adultry. All would have her stoned to death...not Jesus. He knew she would quit that lifestyle and forgave her. All those there were convicted by Jesus that they had sin in their lives. He wrote it down on the ground and they recognized it.
2. The woman at the well. All the other women avoided her...not Jesus. He gave her the LIVING water and she was never thirsty again and her life was changed and so were her neighbors. Even the disciples failed to see the meat thereof that Jesus spoke of which they could not see.
3. The woman whose daughter was overtaken by demons...even the disciples tried to hush her up...not Jesus he healed her daughter.
Too often preachers take their eyes off of Jesus and on to themselves (their flesh) and say hurtful things that fail to measure up to Jesus. They always do. Do not follow a man as they will disappoint you each and every time. Hope you get it if you are a man follower rather than a Jesus follower. Its the worst lesson a Christian has to face in a lifetime. Been there and refuse to go back.
Sounds like maybe some of the deacons are finally getting a backbone. They must be warning the preacher that his direction for this church is going the wrong way. There have been many men (leaders) in history (Mac should know this) that have had faithful people around them, warning them of bad direction and situations, but these leaders were either too prideful to accept the wisdom of others, or too afraid to admit failure in themselves. The yes men around these leaders in history, having no wisdom to offer, contributed to the downfall of the leader. Once this happens the yes men abandon the cause and leave the leader to face his failure alone. The leader is suddenly alone with no one to advise him. If some of our deacons are showing the courage to disagree or dare to question this preacher, maybe he should listen as they PRAY ALSO for Godly wisdom and should not be discarded lightly. God established deacons in the Bible. They are to serve HIM, and take care of matters within the church. Not serve the preacher at his whim. The arrogant man will only follow his own course many times taking the "flagship" down with him.
Watchdog,
The Bible says liars will not receive eternal life. Perhaps, this is the case with you, maybe not. I do not know your eternal destiny but I do know I would take the scriptures more seriously if I were you.
The only place I see scripture used in your blog is in your blog title. And even there it is twisted and taken out of context to make a fallible point. You use no scripture in your articles to prove your points. Why not? Maybe scripture does not support your views..?
Nope, I don't use scripture in my articles. My posts aren't about scripture or the Bible or about Jesus. I'm not trying to win people to Christ in this blog, I'm not trying to edify anyone. I'm not trying to explain any doctrines, I'm not trying to get people to give money to me, I'm not trying to get them to be better husbands, wives, fathers, or mothers. I'm not trying to explain Mac Brunson out of scripture, because I can't. I'm not trying to talk about sin, hell, death, heaven...none of that. The topic of this blog is:
The Abuses of Mac Brunson and the Lay Leaders.
That's all.
I leave the misuse of scripture, and the use of God and Jesus and tithing and "God zapping" to Mac. I'll leave the spiritual slander, the intimidation, the spiritual arrogance to Mac. He does such a good job that I wouldn't want to try to show him up.
So I'll just stick to writing about what I see and what I think about what I see. If it resonates with you, then keep reading. If it ticks you off, then you are free to stop reading it.
So it's off with your head brother deacon if you don't march in lock step. Well what do you expect. He fired most of the staff when he got here. He demands loyalty through intimidation. In order to keep your "position" you must forfeit your integrity (if you disagree with him), swallow your conscious, hang your head and follow meekly. Were you not, brother deacon ordained to serve GOD and the church to the best of your ability? Then do it. Your position is not to follow the pastor, but to follow God. Pastors do not always go the right way. To disappoint a man is one thing, but to disappoint God is another. I would rather loose my position and keep my integrity than to compromise with disaster.
Proverbs l5:l2: "The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility."
Anon 12:09am again,
You don't have to read me my rights when it comes to blogs and the internet Watchdog, I'll do what I want, when I want and however I choose to do it.
I think you have clearly stated to your readers and myself what the problem with this blog is: It is not about Jesus, the Bible, the scriptures and its; intent is not to edify anyone or exalt Christ.
I Corinthians 10:31 says: "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."
I just wanted to hear from the horses mouth that this blog isn't glorifying Christ.
Thanks for the clarification.
"The Bible says liars will not receive eternal life."
In the Word of God, there are so many examples of Men and Women of God who were ridiculed and persecuted for speaking the Truth.
Even Our Lord Jesus Christ had to endure ALL this. They called him a liar, a glutton, a sinner ...
I am NOT saying WD is a saint. But all I am saying, people who speak the Truth lot of times are persecuted by people who do not understand Truth. Lot of times, it's due to insecurity.
But mostly, it's due to lack of humility and staying focused on Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Today, Pastor Mac preached about suffering. He is very good at talking about it. But I ask, can you live what you preach? Please become humble, like the saints of old. Then you will have fbcjax filled to the rafters with people wanting to join fbcjax as members.
I am not angry with anyone here. Just making a point that the "taint" of wealth and money, corrupts lot of hearts. Even though, money by itself does not corrupt, but the "liking" of good things in life does.
There is a reason why the saints of old, lived simple lives.
All I ask, is check ALL the Pastors/Preachers who live lavish life styles, versus what they are preaching to others. Especially about suffering and enduring. Pastor Mac sounds to be a good man. But his actions so far do not indicate that.
You, sir, are a hypocrite.
At least I'm willing to admit...the purpose of this blog is not to talk about Christ.
Do you ever write an email at work?
Do you ever have a conversation about the Jaguars with your friends?
Do you read sports articles?
Have you watched a TV program?
Do you have a phone convesation with a friend about politics?
Of course you do.
And none of these have anything to do with Christ.
But you don't like this blog, because it exposes things that you would like to keep hidden, or that you believe are lies.
But the purpose of this blog is to expose Mac Brunson. I believe Mac is harming the work of Christ at our church, he is the major force at the church resulting in God's money, given by God's people, to be misspent. He is a man that is preaching legalism one minute, easy believism the next, and then trying to guilt people into giving money to his causes. He used Easter Sunday to raise money to put himself on TV.
Does that edify Christ?
Perhaps, if it helps open someone's eyes to the harm Mac is doing at the church.
"You, sir, are a hypocrite."
WD, the Anon, I think is a Woman. That is my guess, based on the wording.
Watchdog is performing a service here. He is not paid for this service. He is concerned about the direction of the church. I imagine he takes much time and trouble to make this blog possible. He receives some thanks from the readers and some abuse also. He has no motive that I can see other than to expose wrong where he sees it. A comentary if you will. I for one thank him for his time and trouble. And for providing a voice to us bloggers who are helpless to say anything anywhere else.
Anon 12:09 again,
ThyPeace, I am no woman. And anon 12:05, I respect your respect for Watchdog. He is a human just like me. I am no more valuable in God's sight. I am just questioning Watchdog's motives and reasoning for this blog just as he questions our pastor.
So let me get this straight Watchdog; You believe what you are doing is ok, because it is exposing the abuses of Pastor Brunson.
Ok, then with that logic it would be ok for me to go murder the guy in jail who shot a convenient store clerk and justice would be served by my actions. That doesn't make sense does it? No. That's what doesn't make sense to me when trying to justify your blog.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time. Suppose you're right Dr. Dog with your diagnosis of the pastor's leadership. You must keep in mind that two wrongs don't make a right. Incorrect decisions made by our pastor and church leadership are not reconciled by crude, viscious and inaccurate blogging in response.
But I don't think your presumptions about the pastor are correct. He doesn't mispend money. He doesn't preach legalism and believism on a whim. And he isn't using our church to promote his brand. He's promoting the Jesus brand.
So again, I leave you with I Corinthians 10:31.
Fair enough.
Poor analogy however. So poor I won't even address it.
Time will tell about Mac. But my take is he is feeling the heat, and instead of humbling himself, his neck is getting more stiff, his words more hurtful, and his attitude more arrogant.
But he is a wonderful performer. Today was worthy of an Oscar.
And if his regime fails, look for him to blame opponents, not himself and his leadership.
In the Bible, there is no deacon "board"--why ask or depend on those poor fellows to do something the Scriptures don't require of them (e.g., hold their senior pastor accountable on behalf of the congregation)? Either bloggers here understand well what the Bible says and believe it, or they don't--including what the New Testament says about the ministry of deacons.
However, any member of any Christian congregation may follow the guidelines in the Bible to address any real wrong in his church. It does take courage to do so, but there are things worse than being kicked out of a church for standing up for what is right--like, not standing up even with Christ by ones side.
Is it time for someone to suggest publicly--but not virtually, as at a blogsite--that the senior pastor's ministry at FBCJax may be completed and that it's time for him to move on? One person alone can inform any group there needing the word (say, the deacon body) that he intends to do that during the upcoming business meeting--simply as an FYI--and proceed with his plan accordingly. Be ready for the church to split on the same day; but it's possible.
Att.6:l9 AM: I would suggest you read the previous blog. "What the Fleecing of a Congregation Looks Like": comment 76; Oct.27, 6:32 AM and comment 77; Oct.27, 9:0l AM.
Acts 6:vs.3, "Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business." Did you see that? Men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom to be over the business of the church." I Tim.:3:vs l0:" And let these also be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless."
This would include giving wise counsel to a "run away" preacher. In this case literally. Run away in the direction he is taking the church, his penchant for travel, high living, perks financed by the church, his blatent narcissim( re: putting himself back on the INSP. network)also financed by the church. Run away in the mannner he deals with his anger toward anyone who questions or challenges his actions.
The church body at FBC have no voice except their wallets. They therefore look to the deacons as the circuit breaker on the power of the preacher. They are to look out for the best interest of the church, a liaison between the pulpit and the congregation. They are not there just to "serve" the pastor as "flunkies and yes men".
Maybe FBC as been "different" in the past. But, we know a problem preacher when we see one. And please don't pull that "you all don't know your Bible stuff" here. As I would challenge you that most members that were under the Lindsays ministries, certainly know their Bible, more than most today, as we were TAUGHT it by them. The Bible teaching of today is just a passing mention, used to make a biased point or as a historical reference.
I would also suggest to you that the term "Senior Pastor" is NOT in the Bible. Do you believe that or don't you?
As to your suggestion that someone rise up at an open business meeting and suggest the pastor move on: Great try at outing the opposition!! If someone fell for that ruse you and the rest of us know that one would be escorted out the door pronto. Do you know what the term "drawn and quartered" means. The end my friend. Thus, this preacher has himself ensconsed in the pulpit and nothing but nothing will take away his power and hold on this church. The trustees back whatever he does. But the trustees should know how they appear to the rest of the church that is unhappy.
You say be ready for a church split. NEWS FLASH: It is already split. The preacher has split it. The preacher has been here 2 l/2 years. He has the church in total control. He has changed the bylaws to favor himself, secretly from the full body of the church until after it was done. The longtime members are told to leave if they don't like what has happened to their once Godly church. By the way, it has been suggested several times on the blog, that the preacher leave for the good of the church. But it would appear that the money and the power are too heady. So we blog on. All of you who read this please pray for our church. Thanks.
Just a thought: FBCJ has for l60+ years made it THE priority to get people INTO the church, by getting them saved and getting them to study their Bibles. The main thrust was always witnessing and salvation. The church slogan WAS "That Jacksonville May Kniow Christ". Isn't it a shame that now it is known as the "if you don't like it leave church". That really has a welcoming ring to it. And, all of you who helped build this church, maintained it, served in it, gave your money to keep it going, you all can leave if you are unhappy. Really shows how far it's gone bad. As a longtime member, I no longer can recommend this church as a salvation based church. And don't tell me to leave that's my business.
1:01 am. Are you ignoring the marketing of a church's brand? Mac has hired the A Group to find and reflect his brand. Get that. You do not hire a marketeer to find scriptures and lay out a sermon. Hopefully, you will open your eyes and see the blind leading the blind as that is what is going on in most SBC churches. Just visit them and you will find branding is part of the game plan. Some wear sports shirts, some jeans, some tennis shoes, and others aprons just to convince their members that they are NEW, FRESH,AND ANNOINTED TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY than those old foggies before them don't you know. Good luck in trying to stop the Watchdog but your psychology is childish. You have no idea of what has happened in this present day Laodicean age.
Dr Lindsay back in the 1980's almost pulled FBC out of the SBC. He saw it coming, unfortunately he didn't. FBC would have been a lot better off to have gone independent of any organized group, but he was convinced by another, not to leave. The cooperative program has cost FBC millions of dollars that could have been used to maintain their buildings and won Jacksonville to Christ.
Watchdog:
You're free to feel as you do about your pastor and to think what you will about his ministry. If you report accurately here what is taking place at FBCJax, then I can agree with much of what you say. However, you cannot accurately understand THE BIBLE as it speaks about deacons AND give the instruction you do immediately above about them. It is that about which I will disagree with you--FBCJax is your problem along with the Lord and your fellow members. Again, in the New Testament correctly read, there is NO deacon "board" overseeing all the ministries of a local church OR that congregation's pastor; instead, there is a body of servants--who actually get little "air time" in the New Testament--yielded to the control of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom overseeing only the ministry for which they were selected by the congregation to serve the most needy individuals among them. Period. Anything else is reading INTO Scripture, not FROM Scripture. If FBCJax had any men like that serving as deacons, or any serious students of the Bible for that matter, the current problem probably wouldn't exist to start with; it certainly wouldn't persist--but not because "officially" the deacons of any church are to run it.
Your congregation's previous bylaws cannot be changed in violation of those bylaws and be replaced with new bylaws. Any court would agree. So, the first bylaws stand. Use them.
As for your "senior pastor" comment, brother: look up "Trinity" and explanations of it, then stop trying to split hairs.
WD, you have one "apparent enemy" that any of us reading at this publicly-offered forum know about--and it isn't me.
Att"3:47. Watchdog did not write that blog. I did. (l0:5l AM) So nitpick your argument with me. I stand by my comments regarding deacons and pastors. Please, do not be so arrogant as to consider yourself so much more knowledgeable than others who read the Bible. I have studied "in depth" scripture for many years. So please understand that your comments are useless TO ME in this argument. Maybe you can impress someone else. Again "Senior Pastor" is not in my Bible, maybe it is in yours, depending which version you use.
I never stated that there WAS a deacon board, you assumed I did. Reread my blog.I will refer you back to Acts 6:3 and I Tim.:3 vsl0.
The duties are spelled out there. I think the real conflict is how the church is to be governed. Whether, pastor led , deacon led or congregation led. In our case the pastor IS the problem. The deacons are useless, and the congregation has NO say so. In the past our church was pastor led, correctly. We had Godly pastors that prayed about everything, and did the best they could for the Kingdom and the congregation. We were then blessed to be in correct standing before God. Pastor led. Now everything is topsy-turvey(?).
See what happens when the Lord is NOT the focus. But, I still stand by my original blog. Please don't blame Watchdog with my opinions.
As a former member with still close ties, I am aware of the conditions (spiritual and physical) at FBC.
I will never forget growing up there, walking the halls and isles with absolute security that I was confident God, the pastors and yes the deacons were there to protect, promote and glorify the Kingdom and the ever presence of Jesus. It was an honor and blessing to be a part of this fellowship.
However, after a recent visit, I was totally astonished by the promotion of outside interest from the pulpit. The pastor was angry and obnoxious in his presentation of securing additional emergency funds.
Please get away from blaming, just identify the problems and act accordingly. I once admired the disciple of the deacon leadership, and I know some are still there. I implore you to again become the standard which others considered beyond reproach. Honor God and regain the respect you are worthy of. Please do not be intimidated of someone who disrespects you. You are greater than the one who now controls you.
What you talking about Willis??
Updated "Smyrl of Wisdom" for Week of October 26th:
Quote: "The primary postmodern priority perpetuated from prostituted pulpits is the elevation of a community that is weekly affirmed in their wavering beliefs that emerge from their shared experience."
Wow....I have been a Senior Pastor for 20 years and have an earned Doctorate from Southwestern
Seminary...I only mention that to assure you that I can usually understand most things that people write....but what is this??
Seriously I want to believe He is doing it tongue in Cheek as a joke on people who think it's real.
All I know is a “Muddy River, ain't necessarily deep"!
Or if I was Smyrlesque....I would say “Just because a wandering tributary is obscured by an opaque appearance ...one must not erroneously conclude that said tributary has any viable depth”:)
I was absolutely appalled to learn how the by-laws of FBC were changed! Reminded me of a Hitler type persona, thus establishing self rule to the exclusion of accountability to anyone. What is next, being reprimanded from the pulpit, being physically escourted out and told your membership is null and void.
Think this is impossible. I challenge any of you serious about pastor abuse and control to research and explore the many abuses exposed thus far in this regard. Those reported are minuscule to the tantamount of the reality of what is really going on.
Deacons, trustees and others, please pay attention. You are the key to intervention and setting things right as you are guided by God.
Thank you for at least listening.
My apologies to Watchdog--who must be addressed often in that way, but without deserving it, by arrogant folks like me.
In its context, Acts 6 is not specifically about deacons--though the office may have grown out of the experience in the life of the Jerusalem church; your comments must be READ INTO IT in order to stand. Paul's statements to Timothy regarding deacons are, grammatically in the original language, a focus on the character of the men not their conduct or practice, whatever your English Bible version; still, it must be READ INTO the text that deacons compose a "board" ruling the local church. Again, deacons form a body within the local church charged with ministry to the most needy of the congregation and overseeing only that ministry. Congregational polity may permit local churches to request additional ministry/ies of those who serve among them as deacons--and, over the past century, they have--but that doesn't change either what the Bible says or what it means by what it says about them.
Still needlessly splitting hairs over "senior pastor," friend. A more worthy pursuit: solve your congregation's problems WITHOUT splitting the church. God's best blessings on you as you try.
"Or if I was Smyrlesque....I would say “Just because a wandering tributary is obscured by an opaque appearance ...one must not erroneously conclude that said tributary has any viable depth”:)"
Actually, the above sentence is much, much clearer than Smyrl's. You have to practice a lot to attain Smyrl's obfuscation in writing.
History is our greatest teacher. During the last 50 years the pastors of America have allowed by their silence children to be abused in the public school system. Back in the 50's and earlier how many times did you observe a teacher having sex with their students? Never or hardly ever did that occur. Remember what Jesus said about the millstone? Whatever happened to Capitol Punishment?
They (the pastors) have also allowed more immoral laws to be passed by the Supreme Court than anytime in our recent past. If American's pastors had stayed true to their calling the government would not have succeeded in passing or interpreting anything that they the courts wanted to make LAW. Brown vs Board of Education. Bussing these children is a national disgrace especially when they spend about as much time on the bus as they do in class each day. Those under 60 don't recall walking or riding their bikes to school. That was the mode of transportation and it did not cost the taxpayers Billions and Billions of dollars. The taxes on your homes would be a lot less if it were not for universal bussing. The congressmen who passed these laws rarely let their children go to PUBLIC schools.
Roe v Wade is another godless intrusion into our daily lives,the killing the unborn. If the pastors with their congregations had stormed the state legislatures and put pressure on the abortion clinics this would never have happened but here again they were silent. If a controversial situation occurs they remain silent. They say lets pray about it which means do nothing. God expects people to stand up for righteousness not watch from a distance and get angry when evil persist. Today it is all about being politically correct rather than putting up a battle when necessary.
These preachers were/are concerned more with numbers, salary, and perks than all the pastors on American shores since 1620 when the Puritans brought the Bible over here from Europe and BELIEVED it.
Today most of these pastors are derelict in expounding the doctrines of the Bible as they do not want to offend anyone. They are more concerned with ecumentalism and "getting along" together which is one of the ploys of Satan rather than standing their ground for what is righteousness and Godly. Fifty years ago you would not find a Methodist or Presbyterian preaching or having a part of a Southern Baptist church. You would have never found a Baptist preaching in either of those denominations. God seperated the races and more languages occured... thats what HE wanted... But,We are smarter than God now as the UN is pushing for One World Government and its going to happen. Its no longer a matter of how but when will it occur.The anti-christ may already be here on earth. Are you ready for 666?
Prior to 1950 preachers brought forth the sin nature of man Sunday after Sunday whereby individuals could be saved and escape Hell Fire and Damnation. When was the last time you heard your pastor talk about the fires of hell. Jesus said more about hell than He did Heaven!!Today, the largest (mega)pastors are concerned with "peace" ,feeding the poor, and "cruises" around the globe. Jesus said there would be no peace and that you would always have the poor with you. Pastors are lying when they speak of peace and feeding the poor and ending hunger in our lifetime, pure and simple. These cruises take the pastor away from the flock that need to hear strong preaching not for the money the pastor can reap on the side. Traveling like this is of recent origin. Paul only did it because He was called of God to do it and to have his neck removed. Take away the money and you wouldn't find a pastor on a CRUISE SHIP.
In the last 15-20 years we have reaped what we have sown in the churches. More inferior Bibles than ever before apprx 100 or more. No wonder you have so many that have turned away from the church as some of these "bibles" are adding and taking away from scripure see Rev 22. Pastors now are pushing PD, TDC, Brownsville awakening, Alaska awakening, laughing episodes, falling and running around in the churches,church in a bar, full blown jazz, and modern music which fails to bring sinners to the Savior. It does bring forth a crowd but for what purpose?
The lack of accountability in todays churches whether Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian is rampant. Just think about it. Is Jesus being glorified in the pulpit today or is He just a means whereby these pastors have a position to sell their brand, books, trips, conferences? Go figure. I blame most of America's problems on the Pastors of this country past and present. Surely God had/has nothing to do to cause this mindset that the modernist have delivered into the church. Blame your pastor, yourself, deacons, or trustees, but for HEAVENS sake do not blame GOD. God is not the author of confusion.
One last thing: Mother Russia. Have you noticed in the last 15-20 years how many of the former Russian satellite states have pulled out and gone to democracy? Now look at America who has been fighting communism for 60 years (end of WWII) is now about to elect a 100% Socialist. Who would have thought this would have happened 10-20 years ago. The people would have it so. They'll get more than what they have bargained.And Mac says. we must get rid of the "worrying" deacons. He better worry we could come to a point that the churches would be shut down or taxed into non-existance then what would he do?
Just my thoughts. And some fail to see the church is LAODICEAN and we are in the "falling away". God help us.
7:48 attn: You have "whipped" this dog long enough. I am bored with your "reading into" the "deacon board" controversy, that you have conjured up. No more commment will be made by me. P.S. If we could alter our problems at FBC, believe me we would have done so by now. We appreciate all prayers that we may receive on behalf of the church. Thanks.
Smyrl is the only one that can confuse himself with his own words. He wants to be thought of as some deep bible scholar. It is almost like "speaking in tongues". Remember you must have an interpreter to understand. His comments are more confusing than when Mac says "in the Greek" and then gives us a word no one cares about in the Greek. All window dressing to let us stupid people know how smart they are. Boy, this stuff really gets people saved doesn't it? Who cares what Jim says anyway.
Jims sermons are somewhat like listening to an English poem in iambic pentameter on the peripheral periphrasis.
It seems there is a never ending circle of people being paralyzed with fear.
Suggestion: You have the opportunity to put those who are upset together to bring a unified voice. If they agree then act as a conduit so that they could learn who each is and unite.
There is strength in unity and if the many here came as one at a finance meeting and voiced their concerns collectively, it would be powerful. Surely not all would be ostracized and if they were then your blogging can't really help us.
Two Rivers
Has anyone else read Smyrl's latest posting on voting. It's pretty straightforward. I like it.
Yes, Smyrl lowered himself to our level and wrote a blog that the congregation can understand.
The scary thing about Smyrl's writings:
He's the Executive Pastor of:
EDUCATION
Wow.
Sutton Ousted at Two Rivers: Lessons for Brunson and FBC Jax - Part 1
WD, please add Labels to ALL of your posts. Including your old ones. Then it's very easy for newcomers to find your pertinent posts.
Pastor Wade is still going through it. He has 3 years worth of posts on his blog.
Sorry WD. This will be my last comment for today. I promise. :-)
Check this out. WD, you remind me of this bulldog.
I just found this wonderful post by Pastor Wade:
A Tenacious Bulldog Tussling With a Porcupine
blogger of 9:21 PM: You say "us" at the end of your blog. If you are a member of FBCJ and are of "credible" age (old enough to seriously understand circumstances), then you should know that the "church political climate" is not condusive to raising ANY discussion with this preacher or his protectors. If you dare to get on the wrong side in this church then you will be frozen out faster than ice cream melts. Many have made the mistake of trying to bring attention to their issues and many of them are currently attending other churches. They did not want to leave but had no choice. You will be made to feel as welcome as a rash. It is not worshipping God when you come to church nervous, upset, and generally in a defensive mode due to treatment given you. It doesn't matter how long you have been a member, what area you have served in or who your relatives are. Well almost, some "relatives" have position and fat wallets. But most of us don't. The landscape is littered with bodies that have tried to "talk" to others about on going problems. Otherwise, we would not need this blog. The "bodies" have been encouraged to find somewhere else to be happy. Just look at what has happened to our staff as an example. So I don"t believe any one will be putting their head on the chopping block, unless they want to be the sacrifice used in a confrontation. Many are hanging on, waiting to see if "the cloud moves". One thing I suggest is that we PRAY for Gods will in all matters.
If you are not a member at FBCJ, then you cannot accurately see the picture from afar, thus your advice, maybe being well intentioned is useless.
Thy Peace, did you scroll down and read the comments left by Burleson? I thought this was funny, maybe nothing, but still funny to me.
"Wade Burleson said...
For all concerned with the dog, please know he's fine. Further, 'since all dogs go to heaven,' even if he were'nt, he would be. :)
Finally, don't believe everything you read on the internet. The dog's name was Wiley. The owner's name was Ben. The porcupine's name was Paige."
...as in Patterson? LOL
In similar circumstances in another church where the pastor was the problem, one brave man who cared a lot for his church decided he would go--by himself if necessary--to tell the pastor that he personally believed that God had concluded the pastor's tenure at that church. The brave man did tell the deacons on his way to speak with the pastor, to give them a "heads up" about what he intended to do; the deacons discussed the matter among themselves, decided the message was right, and sent along representatives to help deliver it. The group was prepared to take the matter to the congregation as a whole if necessary (many in the church body already knew there were problems). Upon delivering the message, the small group was told by the pastor that he already realized his tenure was concluding and that he'd already begun seeking God's will about his next place of service. The group acknowledged the pastor's statement and indicated that, 6 months following, the pastor would not still be "seeking God's will"--as the group was prepared to take the matter to the congregation. In the meantime, everyone had to get along with each other--but shortly later, the pastor was called to serve another church in a different state.
The matter really began to be solved when one brave godly man, who loved his church enough, decided it was time to address the matter face-to-face and to take it to the church if the response of the pastor made it necessary. He put his reputation on the line, but found there was more concern than he knew and more support for what was right than there had appeared.
I was a member of that church, but I was not that man. I did not have that kind of courage. I would now; I learned from the example set. Right is right, no matter what.
blogger 7:05: Although that may have worked in your church, it will not work here. From your description, it sounds like a small church. And it sounds like the pastor was READY to leave. Perhaps the salary and perks were not as attractive as ours. And possibly your pastor was actually looking for Gods will and not his own, also not the case in our church. Understand no one is going to "out" himself to this pastor, as nothing will be accomplished except to get the "outee" kicked "out". As this pastor is entrenched and will not give up until he has all that he wants out of this church. So don't keep trying to get someone to be "stupid" enough to reveal who they are and suffer for it. Coaxing someone into this position is not going to work. Nothing would be accomplished. So please stop trying to "lure" us out. Thanks.
Then, you yourself will have the same story to tell that I do: "I was not that man."
I learned that it is one thing actually to hold biblical convictions, but another thing to have the courage which naturally should accompany those biblical convictions. Your comments make it appear to others reading here that the result of the service of the Lindsays over their many years with you is fear--a statement I seriously doubt you want to be true.
If the matter at FBCJax is resolved correctly, the pastor will shape up--and maybe move on by himself. If that does not happen, then the matter will be resolved by some brave and godly person who loves the church more than his own reputation. If that person is correct in his biblical understanding of the matter but is "kicked out" of FBCJax, there are many other Baptist churches in your town which would love to have him join (if he is wrong in the matter, those congregations will hope he joins the Catholic church instead).
Not that your comments evidence caring about it, but I feel sorry for you and wish you were more spiritually and emotionally and intellectually mature. God's best to you.
Your pseudo psychological profiling doesn't work here. As I have said repeatedly to you. You do not understand the circumstances in this church. So to "pronounce" from afar the spiritual immaturity of another person that you have never met shows your NAIVETE'. Please do not deliver anymore of your "head in the clouds" advice. As to the Lindsays: You have no idea as to the relationship they had with their church. They were by far the most spiritual pastors this church has or probably will ever see. They were respected, listened to, admired and loved by their church. They also were Godly men that sought Gods will before bringing any matter or even a sermon to their church. Fear of the Lindsays was not the case in this church. We are dealing with the CURRENT pastor of this church, not the Lindsays. I think your lack of understanding is a problem here,to even suggest someone "feared the Lindsays, shows you know NOTHING about them or this church. Do not attempt to apply personality traits or judge my spirituality as you are not qualified. Please deliver NO more of your dire assessments in this direction, as I will not reply to your misguided missives any further. Thank you for "feeling sorry for me", but I don't need your sentiments. As to my intellectual prowess, that also you cannot judge as you know nothing about me. You can however, better apply your concern, in prayer for this church. Thanks.
I am the one who initiated the idea. In my opinion, Thy Peace and It it Written are given great honor but both are from afar and have not set foot in our church.
This is becoming something out of Judges where all complain but no one will start something - please WD- you can start this going.
Either that or we will wind up just complaining.
Anon 9:46pm 10/28/08 I'm a local pastor and was a member of FBC Jax in the seventies.I and my then future wife were baptisted by Dr.Lindsay.I have been to many of the pastors conferences during Drs Lindsay's and Vines tenure.I shop at the FBC book store when I need materials.I have several current friends who are members of FBC Jax.One of things that endeared me to FBC Jax was the genuine character and love demonstrated by both Dr.Lindsay and his wonderful wife,they treated me and my future wife and mother with such compassion they they left a lasting mark on my life.Oh by the way I'm a black American and for the Lindays to treat me and my family like that in the early seventies was unheard of in a white church.I got to experience and see how Dr.Lindsay lived and lead Christ church:And believe me Brunson is absolutely and by no means or any stretch of the imagination:A HOMER LINDSAY!
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