We, the concerned members of First Baptist Jacksonville, decree the month of July 2008 as the "Independence from the Abuses of Mac Brunson Month" and hereby decree the following:
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has come to our church and our city and purposely enriched himself by accepting a large gift from one of our donors rather than doing the honorable thing and directing that gift to the church;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has on multiple occasions spoken ill of our church to outsiders - as in claiming he is in a "hotbed of legalism" to a group of North Carolina pastors - and not defending us publicly when Paige Patterson decreed in his presence that Mac was attacked by "recalcitrants" on his arrival to Jax and received no "honeymoon" and equated our treatment of Mac on his arrival to wanting to "kill" him;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson and/or our lay leadership allowed $100,000 of church money to be used to convert valuable space in the Children's Building to a personal office suite for himself, his wife, and his dogs;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has allowed the significant modification of the bylaws of our church without allowing widespread dissemination of the proposed changes, and presiding over the business meeting (click here to listen) where the vote was taken and never offering one word of explanation to his sheep for the changes;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has seen fit to place wife and son on staff at our church with no stated ministry responsibilities;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson held an unannounced business meeting, possibly in violation of our church by-laws, to approve a $500,000 loan of church monies to start a school, giving justification for the school as an absolute necessity to reach our city for Jesus Christ because door-to-door evangelism is dead as "no one is ever at home anymore";
Whereas Donald M. Brunson allowed "prominent deacons" to persuade him to allow our church facilities, which have been built to the glory of God for the furtherence of the gosepl of Jesus Christ, to be used to host a non-evangelistic event called "A Time to Stand With Israel" event to raise funds for a Jewish hospital, a hospital where state funded abortions occur;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has shown himself to live a vastly different lifestyle in regards to finances and gifts and wealth than what he portrays in his book used to train Baptist pastors;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has carelessly declared that he "prays" the federal government does not come to Jacksonville to help us if we are devastated by a hurricane (click here to listen yourself);
Whereas Donald M. Brunson on multiple occasions has attempted to place Christians under the legalistic yoke of tithing by declaring they are robbing God unless they give 10% of their income, and claimed that people are suffering or will suffer unless they succumb to his legalistic yoke of Old Testament tithing (click here to listen);
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has declared that those who might disagree with him that the Christians are obligated to tithe and that the Old Testament "storehouse" refers to the New Testament church, are "doing the work of Satan";
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has used his pulpit as a "bully pulpit" to attack those who might disagree with him or who don't respond as he likes to his requests (click here and here);
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has embarrassed our church by agreeing to serve on the mayor's Crime Prevention Steering Committee and only attended 2 of 7 meetings, and never giving an explanation to his congregation or publicly to the city;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson purposely deceived his congregation about the $300,000 land gift on June 22, 2008 by saying he is "paying for his house" when he in fact did not pay for all of it but one of our generous church members gave him the land (click here to listen);
Whereas Donald M. Brunson says we should all "thank Jesus" we haven't gotten a raise because we are all so stupid as to use that extra money to go further in debt;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has used our Ressurrection Day service as an opportunity to collect money to put his sermons on national TV, yet never explaining why the better option is to archive video feeds of all of our services;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson has repeatedly shown an indifference to his responsibilities as pastor, leaving before greeting visitors on Easter Sunday, leaving before the completion of the invitation on Father's Day, failing to preach on Sunday nights because of book manuscripts;
Whereas Donald M. Brunson is using our church website to advertise for a "Holy Land Trip" that is not a church ministry;
Now therefore until the pastor and/or the church lay leadership begin to address these concerns, including public explanation of the bylaw changes enacted in December 2007, and until the pastor begins to display the humble servant-leadership as portrayed in the New Testament, our tithes and offerings will be given to other worthwhile Christian purposes that will meet people's needs and further the gospel. We do not feel compelled by scripture to continue to financially support the ministry of FBC Jacksonville as continued giving to the church is to condone the past practices and encourage even more abuses in the future.
Be it decreed this, the 25th day of June, in the year 2008.
Concerned Members of FBC Jacksonville
Dr.Watchdog may I suggest donating to the Grace To You Ministry of Dr.John MacAuthur Jr.who day end and day out faithfully proclaims the Word of God(www.gracetoyou.org).Another faithful teacher is Mr.Dave Hunt's Berean call minitry's out of Bend,OR(www.bereancall.org).
The website for MacArther is:
To get a good dose of Bible teaching (without paying), click on the Video tab and just pick a sermon: any sermon, to hear a serious, humble, measured, Bible expositor.
Those of you that giggle at Mac's antics, maybe listening to a good Bible sermon will help you see that you've fallen for a careless preacher.
The list of inappropriate things that Mac Brunson has done since he arrived at FBCJ is long. What must be understood is that it does not look like he is going to change.
He has come here expecting a radical change in one of the finest churches in this country. The members have given him every opporturnity to adjust to us, a Jesus Christ centered church. After all , we as sheep have followed God's sheppards in the past to make FBCJAX WHAT IT IS TODAY. Did we go down the wrong road with our savior JESUS CHRIST? We do not think so!
This is a sad day for the members of FBC Jax.
We hope and pray that Dr. Brunson will turn from the Purpose Driven led church growth program back to a Jesus centered church growth program.
Amen Watchdog! Well stated. I will definitely be giving my tithes and offerings to other worthwhile causes. So many are in need during these tough financial times it shouldn't be hard to find an organization, or even a local family in our neighborhood, who would be blessed by our gift.
Imagine what your neighbor might think, or a relative might think, if you paid that car repair bill for them, or brought them groceries, or filled their gas tank all in the name of Jesus. That my friend, would shock the world. Or, you can contribute to the $14 million budget to finance the staff of the FBC Jax and put the preacher on the airwaves in other states. I guess citizens of New Orleans can now hear on INSP, good ole Mac rant and rave about how much the church is helping them.
WD: A new website: http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/19528
Read this article.You will be amazed at a pastor named James (Mac) Hammond who secured (8) loans of $1.9 million at favorable rates from the church.( 2-9-2007). Also, his purchase of an airplane and the church leasing it back from him and the valuable properties he owns.
The government is going to step in and do something about these individuals who take tax advantages in a tax exempt non- profit organization. He has been reported twice to the IRS and is now got his plane up for sale. You might want to print the articles about him on one of your next blogs. Its more than unethetical, it makes all churches bear a burden that should not be present in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Keep up the good work. Someone has to be a watchman and you fit the bill. God help open the eyes of the blind sheep!!!!
You are a piece of work.
If you listen to John MacArthur for a few days, you will find listening to MB almost intolerable. The difference is glaring. No ranting, no raving just studied Bible exposition.
I pray that your passion to know and commune with Christ will one day exceed the and contempt you have for Mac Brunson and the need to deal with his problems in such an unscriptural way. In truth, Mac Brunson is none of your business. You will find peace when you turn such scrutiny on your own walk.
When there are legitimate problems, and questions, there needs to be legitimate answers. To disenfranchise part of the church because of an elitest attitude of one that is above scrutiny is arrogance itself. This would hardly be tolerated in any other forum. The ministry must, by virtue of it's nature, be transparent!! Needless to say, we are in "muddy waters".
Dr. Lindsay often preached,"When one member suffers they all suffer".
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! Saith the Lord.
:2 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Isreal against the pastors that feed my people; ye have scattered my flock,and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.
Brother Mac we do not want to leave; but your lack of preaching Jesus and the gospel is driving us away. How long will it take for you to repent? Have you lost your first love?
Hahahahaha ohhh me....my eyes are wet with tears...
"Independence From Mac Brunson Month" Hahahahaha
Mac, youre clearly doing something right brother! These are the same people that will rush to their computers when Christ returns to complain about how they feel He returned the wrong way hahahaha!
Theyre the same people who squealed when they thought you were misusing the television equipment by not airing the services, yet, now they come back and squeal that you didnt announce to them that you WERE back on the air hahahah!
Their problem isn't with you, its with themselves and the church! They fuss about who works at the CHURCH...the money they give to the CHURCH...the ministries surrounding the CHURCH.
Whats worse...hahahaha...they do everything they accuse you of doing!
Thats right Watchdog...thats the whole point of this! Thats the issue at hand! You accuse Mac of lying....yet, you lie every time you post your thoughts on this site as facts. Sorry, but thats deceitful when you do that. Then, you call Mac hypocrite, yet, youre the hypocrite because you call yourself a Christian yet there is no love in your speech and for sure theres no building up or encouragement towards Mac, except to be "independent" from him. On top of that, you say this site is free to all to post....yet, you shut down those who oppose your views and call them names such as sheep, suck ups, blind...etc. Oh, and we wont mention some of the names you've called the Pastor.
ADDRESS THESE ISSUES!
You wanna know the thing you should be weary of Watchdog? Its not the pastor calling you out...because you know he wont. It seems to me, that he could care less about this site, you and what you have to say...however, if you look to the top of your screen, you'll notice a blog ID...normally that means nothing to people....but, to a computer programmer/web designer, thats the key to the email address used to create a blog...uh oh
That's OK Anon, I understand.
For you to open your eyes and agree with even one thing written would be to admit that you've been duped by someone you love and worship, and you just can't do that. I understand. The urge to not open your eyes is very great, and it causes you to lash out at those who are trying to help you see truth. I understand. I've even been where you are before. So I understand brother.
But you take it one step further. Not only can you not see that you've been fooled by your pastor, you then have to falsely accuse someone who raises very valid issues that need to be addressed. Most of your statements about me are lies. But rather than face one morsel of truth, you MUST believe these assumptions you've made to make things fit neatly together in your mind.
You start out saying we're not Christians because we'll be here after Christ returns. You've learned well from your pastor in accusing people of being non-Christian. Good job there.
I never "squeeled" about the TV not airing. I've raised a very valid issue that you can't address: our church monies, to the tune of $100,000 are being used to broadcast our sermons one hour per week on national TV, while we can't even archive the video on the Internet. I say a misuse of funds for an egotistical pastor. Argue the merits of our concerns, please.
Our problem is not with "the church" as you claim. Never has been. We love the church. We serve and give to the church and have been faithful members for decades.
You claim lies come from this site, but don't address the lies.
Just lay off the Kool Aid sir for a while, and your eyes will open. Better yet, maybe listen to or watch a few bible sermons on the Internet from someone who preaches the Bible and you might begin to open your eyes.
WD: I have found a really strong Bible preacher on TV, believe it or not. I have been watching him for awhile and up to this point I think he is legitimate, sincere and well founded in doctrine.He can be seen on Daystar Ch. 233 at 8:30 each A.M., (not sure about Fri's). His website is www.awmi.net His name is Andrew Wommack. Check him out for some "real" Bible teaching.
Keep it up WD - it is your right. You seem to have attracted a lot of attention. But, that same right is ours to disagree with you. You have offered little to no proof on most of your claims and accusations. Some are public knowledge, but some are just plain assumptive on your part. Listen to other preachers or not, attend FBC or not, tithe or not...it doesn’t really matter, it is between you and God. Pastors and staff come and go in churches, some are good, some not so much, but your call is to Glorify God, so please keep that in mind. You, personally are called to be an example to those who live in darkness, who are lost in their sins and need a Savior and to disciple new converts and fellow believers in the Word of God. We have not been called to be God’s policemen in the church. However there is a provision for that in scripture, mentioned by some of your previous bloggers, The Bible says that if someone among you is in sin that you are to personally go to that person and confront them with the Word and if this doesn’t solve the issue, then take that person before the church elders. (I know you know this already as you have shown a good knowledge of the Word. If you are going to use and stand by parts of it, then you need to use and stand by all of it.) If you serve the Lord with gladness, faithfully, you may find it difficult to find the time, energy and negative emotions to be ugly toward other saints. While it would appear that you have a lot of concerned FBC members "on your side" I cant imagine that you are in a majority in your opinions and assumptions. Those assumptions would also include that the "other half" or Brunson supporters as you call them are ignorant, blind sheep which is inaccurate and totally uncalled for. Many I am sure are well educated and intelligent adults who manage homes and businesses as I am sure you are and to offend them for their interpretation of these accounts is out of line, off base and unnecessary to say the least. They simply see things different than you and for right or wrong, this doesn’t make them any more blind, stupid or ignorant than you are for your opinion of these matters at hand. Go a little easier on your wording, "Speak the truth in love" I believe the scripture teaches…just this one anon’s observation and personal opinion…
Well said Anon...I appreciate the spirit in which you give me your comments...too bad others here posting to rake me over the coals and call me Satanic and presume to know that I'm lost and heading to hell can't have your same spirit.
I know it seems I've impugned anyone who supports Mac Brunson, but that is not my intent. I love the people of FBC Jacksonville, and most people don't realize what Mac Brunson is doing - they are busy serving the Lord as they should be, and they have always had great trust in their leadership. So I am not callilng these people names or impugning their intelligence or character.
But those who come here to attack my motives and presume to know how well I am or am not glorifying God, or whether I'm saved or not, and misrepresenting the concerns and not even bothering to address one single concern - to those yes I have been a bit harsh in my responses. As some have said, they love to say that we should let the Lord deal with Mac Brunson, but they seem to want to deal with the Watchdog. I also have harsh words for the smart men who are in power (trustees mostly, and some deacons)and have allowed events to transpire seemingly unabated - placing the interests of Team Brunson ahead of the interests of the people of God - in my opinion.
Yes, the website is quite popular based on the site meter hits tracking activity and is growing weekly. Its split 50/50 for the most part between Jacksonville and the rest of the country. Many people have looked up to FBC Jax for years, and I'm afraid that many people are surprised what is going on - perhaps most don't believe it and think the blogger is Satanic - but still many objective observers looking at the issues raised here have to wonder what in the world Mac Brunson is doing.
Any word on the when the line up for the 2009 Pastors Conference will be coming out? By this time each year usually the info is out on the dates, speakers, etc.
RE: 12:11" Why do you require more from WD and us bloggers than is required from the pastor? If people that have questions and problems with actions of this pastor had been treated courtesously to start with, or if questions had been answered properly, then this blog. WOULD NOT BE HERE!!!! Does anyone get it? Others have gone to the pastor, sent E Mails SIGNED, and have either been rebuffed, or not answered at all. We are not to just follow a man!! As far as calling "others" ignorant and blind, in my opinion, this means some that do not want, or do not recognize problems that exist. Some not all, but some are the same people that follow a man because he is in the pulpit regardless of the situation. You state that we are to follow the Bible. I agree. And as we see it we are. We refuse to compromise what we believe and just go along to get along. Please remove your rose colored glasses, and see it from our side for once. Thank you for your thoughts here.
I think the problem, as I see it, is that so much has been said in "generality". Many readers "hear" your reply as an attack on anyone who chooses to continue to support their Pastor. The way you write, much of it does come off that way. I also feel that while you have made clear comments about your love and concern for FBC, these blogs and various comments and posts can’t help but cast an awful light on the church as a whole, which causes many to be maybe overly defensive. Those who you may have offended are never going to hear or believe you. We (humans) you and I both, tend to close our ears, eyes and minds to others input, opinions and any information offered by someone that constantly berates, belittles and name calls. If they are doing it toward you, don’t fall prey and do it back. You are the one who opened this forum, so take the "hits like a man" but don’t return evil for evil, that is, what you assume to be a personal attacks (I think it is your viewpoint which is “under attack” not your level of Spirituality) Consider turning this around a bit my friend. Let’s address the issues like intelligent adults, with clear facts only and be sure that opinions and assumptions are properly labeled and for God’s sake and the sake of the future of FBC, let’s stop the childish name calling and ugly rhetoric. It is hurting what you are trying to achieve. If you can find a way to be more respectful to the Pastor and Staff as well as the lay leadership I think this would prevent others from being so offended and positioning themselves in a defensive mode and giving more credibility to any accurate information that you have to offer. Pray first, answer later, that is all I ask.
Anon 12:11 I agree with Watchdog. Your christian manner is refreshing. Maybe you can give us some of your thoughts about the following:
Mac Brunson taking the church PURPOSE DRIVEN.
Since arriving, Mac Brunson's messages have been SEEKER FRIENDLY centered rather that Jesus Christ centered.
Mac Brunson rarely preaches salvation, the gospel, the cross, the blood, hell or eternal separation from God.
You have been in church. You know what is preached. You are wise having been grounded in doctrine and scripture. You know that the Lord has given you wisdom.
Please give us your thoughts?
"I" dont require more from WD and us bloggers than is required from the pastor? God looks at us individually and that was all I was suggesting we do ourselves. How do you know just how many people the Pastor personally speaks with, has addressed or replied too. I personally know of a few that he has not, but I know of many that he has. You should take the time to stand next to him after a service and listen to the disrespectful way people address him and bring their complaint to him right when the service is over. I wanted to introduce a guest to him one Sunday and I walked away because someone was talking to him like he was a child or their butler, telling him how he should be doing certain things. So anon, all of this goes both ways, for him and for us. Decide who will take the high road, decide who will show respect, regardless of having received any, and decide who will display that attribute of Jesus. As for me and my house I will choose to serve the Lord. Go and do likewise...
There is no way to say what needs to be said and not sound offensive to pastor and his "team" and his close lay leaders. That's the way it is. I'm not pulling any punches here. "Please, pastor, we love you so much, would you please dear sir please stop calling us a hotbed of legalism? Thank you brother pastor!" I'm not going to do that. I'm going to state what I see as FACTS and this being a blog, I'll offer my analysis of these facts. If my facts are wrong, or you disagree with my analysis, fine, come here and state so. But so many instead of refuting facts, or intelligently disagreeing with my analysis want to question bloggers' spiritual condition, say these are all "lies", etc.
Be more repsectful to the pastor and lay staff? You're kidding, right? That would solve so much, just show Mac "respect". Yep, that's the main problem, bloggers not giving respect to Mac and Bristowe and the others. Well, Mac has disrepected the members of our church by his actions, plain and simple. I'm not being vengeful, just saying that there is no nice way to point out abuses...except usually to the abuser its to not point them out. Sorry, we'll keep pointing them out. I'm sure there will be more this Sunday. Its par for the course.
I view what Mac has done to our church to be many, many times more damaging to our church and the cause of Christ than this blog. The abuser loves to blame the abused when the accusations are aired. I've not hired my family on the church payroll, I've not accepted huge gifts from a donor because I'm "God's man", I've not recommended vast changes to church governance in our bylaws and come up with a way to do it as secretly as possible...I didn't do that...Mac and/or the lay leaders and trustees did that...Mac and his "team" and his lay leaders are the ones who need to cease and desist, not the bloggers. So no apologies for how I've written here as it pertains to Mac and what I would call his "yes men".
See there, I asked that you pray first and then answer. Prayer didn’t bring you to all of that "defending your position" stuff. Be nice WD, bring it down a bit, you just keep coming off like you are screaming at us because we don’t get your point of view. I just asked that you be considerate and respectful. In the military we learned to be considerate and respectful to a DI whose sole ambition is to make you feel as worthless as a worm. But you learn and grow and mature. I know its not really the same thing, I am just trying to make a little bit of a point. Its not so hard. Jesus showed respect to the scribes and Pharisees who mocked and ridiculed him.
anon 12:58; my thoughts are just that, my thoughts. I do not feel either wise enough or spiritual enough to offer my opinions on those question to anyone other my family and close personal friends. I truly don’t feel my personal thoughts would carry any weight, be worth the "ink" or make any difference. I pray and seek Gods face in these matters. I trust God, not men, to lead guide and direct me in how I should act and react, and I have and do act and react, just not in the same way some of you have chosen to.
Anon 1:31 thank you for your reply. "and I have and do act and react just not in the same way some of you have chosen to" You are absolutely right, we all are led of the Lord to be different for Him. Some Preachers, some teachers....
We will bring the facts to the readers of this blog and members of FBCJ. Some of us are not as soft hearted as you. (I mean this in a positive way.) We may be over abusive in our wording. Please forgive us.
Nevertheless, this is not fun and games with me. I will now sit back and waite for this church to be destroyed. You may not see the urgency. I see us late in the transition. Others do not see at all. We plan to continue to shine the light on error at FBCJ.
We give very detailed and accurate information on the subject of PURPOSE DRIVEN, about the pastors half lies and many other problems.
Supporters rarely talk to the fact but instead major on character assasination.
So, brother you do it your way and we will do it our way. God's will be done!!!
Once again, My main suggestion is that in order to be heard, you don’t have to shout. And much of what is written on this site comes off that way as well as a lot of "I am right and you are wrong, so you must be stupid"(just my interpretation) And what you have called detailed and accurate information is neither, again with exception to items that are public record. But little differentiating between fact and opinions. So much of this has just all run together and is hard for some readers to discern.
You assume that those not taking your side, or just maybe me, see this as fun and games and nothing could be further from the truth. You assume that because some of us don’t feel this forum is the best way to deal with or manage these situations then we must be just sitting around and doing nothing at all. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. You assume that if we haven’t "taken your side" or we are "defending" the Pastor that we don’t have the same level of concern, care or interest in the many problems that go on in our church, you are so naive and badly mistaken.
Once again, my personal point of view and why I am so against this type of forum and the way it presents itself is two-fold.
1st. it puts Brother against Brother. All desiring the same goal of worship and Honor to God and Exalting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Reaching the Lost. And I just can’t believe that Watchdog intended for things to go this far, between us, members, that it is driving a wedge in the church and preventing effective ministry.
2nd. Sometimes as we write back and forth to each other on this blog, I think we get the impression that it’s “just between us” and as WD clearing mentioned that there are those from around the country that are reading these “points vs. counter-points” and must be thinking (for various reasons) “Man those guys are all crazy” and we wouldn’t get them to pay any attention to our ministry or message now or in the future if their very lives depended on it – oh, and it does.
So are we all, me, you, WD and the others all so Biblically illiterate that we continue to say; “So, brother you do it your way and we will do it our way. God's will be done” – let’s try harder than that. I agree that the very life of our church may be at stake. But I also believe that as we write we are affecting lives right now today, that may be having difficulty understanding how Christians can act and feel this way toward one another.
Maybe you're overanalyzing.
This is a blog among millions of blogs.
Its a place where there are common interests expressed. Its a place that only those who have some interest need to come. No interest, don't come to this blog. Go to other blogs that are of interest. Don't like that the blogger is anonymous. Cool, lots of people don't like anonymous bloggers and give them ZERO credibility. Fine. Then go elsewhere. Or start your own blog and put your name and smiling face on it.
This blog was started by a guy. Some guy who did a couple of mouse clicks, spent no money, gave it a name, and now its there. And the guy decided to be anonymous for his own reasons. He doesn't claim to speak for God, he doesn't demand respect from people who read it. He doesn't take money from people who read it. He isn't declaring people doing the work of Satan for those who disagree with him. He just has a blog and he writes what he sees as fact, and he even gives (mostly) equal time to people who want to express themselves. Sometimes he doesn't let posts through for a variety of reasons, but by and large its an open forum. He doesn't collect money and advertise to get more people to watch it. Yes, the subject matter (Mac Brunson's actions) is quite controverisal, as many people love Mac Brunson as he is very popular and lots of people world-wide know who he is. But its a blog. Even Mac himself could come here and post if he wanted.
So the blogger has no power, or budget, or respect, or title, and no one worships him. He's a blogger writing about what he sees and believes to be true and what it means. Other people are interested in the same topic, so they come and read it too. Some of them even post on it.
No big deal. Its a blog.
Anon 2:46 Yes lives are at stake hear. The very reason that we are discussing these points is that lives are at stake.
When the gospel is not preached. Those listeners do not hear how to be saved. They could be killed the very day they listened to the sermon. The very last time that they could hear how to be saved; and not one word about how they could be saved was given. You say the pastors message is between him and God.
You tell that to Paul. Pual went daily preaching the good news about Jesus Christ. That is God's Will.
About facts brother, is this the first time you have read this blog? The facts speak for themselves. Daily in the temple and from house to house they seest not to teach an preach Christ Jesus. Is Mac Brunson doing this at each sermon? Do you think he should? Or would you rather hear some history lesson when no one gets saved.
You tell be brother!!!
WatchDog. you may be on to something. "It's just a blog" maybe that is why those on "team brunson" show little to no regard to it.
Do me a favor WD and go back to the beginning, when this all started and read through all of it and tell me you can’t see emotions and attitudes change. So many ungodly comments that bare such a negative witness. You have been personally attacked, the Pastor, staff and leadership in the church have been "called out" some verbally attacked and accused of deeds that may or may not all be entirely true or accurate.
I just don’t believe that much of this was the intent of this blog when it was started. I agree, it is just a blog, with various ideas and opinions. Some important facts have been brought forward, but some things are being said, threats made, accusations and just so much that simply isn’t what would be pleasing to Christ.
Again, I agree, it’s just a blog and if what is written upset or offends someone, add their own feelings or they don’t have to come back, their choice…I just hate that due to the public forum, the witness that it portrays for Christians.
Pardon me, but it seems that we have two camps, and possibly three.
1. One camp is behind Team Brunson no matter what happens.
2. One camp is praying that Team Brunson will change their ways.
3. One camp who doesn't care one way or the other.
If you do 1. you are like someone said following a man.
2. If you are praying then God's will will be accomplished one way or the other.
3. I haven't a clue about this group, but they are out there.
You will remember Paul had to face Peter and correct him.
I recall Rick Warren stating that Wally Criswell was taking notes on what he (Rick) was teaching him and 25 other SBC Mega Church pastors. Rick said he couldn't believe that Criswell was still learning after all of those years and this was not too many years ago.A lot of those Mega preachers went with Rick and his book because he told them if they didn't they wouldn't have a ministry in five years and they beleived him.
The church members have to decide what type of church they want...traditional with strong preaching or Purpose Driven...there are no other roads to take. So either keep addressing the problems on the blog and sending staff and trustees e-mails of your concerns,(if you can get anyone to acknowledge you) or go somewhere else where God can use your talents(if you can find a church that doesn't have elements of PD in it). Or you can just sit on the fence and be a "FENCE SITTER". Not a very hopeful scenario to say the least.
not sure where you read it but this anon didnt say:You say "the pastors message is between him and God". and I guess I missed it, because I've not seen that in these blogs at all. I have read "the actions of the Pastor are between him and God" that is different and not my present debate.
Look, just to say, Dr.L preached Jesus first, theology second and life application in conclusion. Dr.V taught theology first, Jesus second and not too much on life application. Brunsons has a different style, I agree, most do. And I agree I would like to hear more reference and application to Christ and salvation other than in the invitation. But my family and I enjoy the history that has been tied into the messages,ir is great Christian educational information so no, I dont want that out, just put in maybe third place. Again, I agree. I am very thankful that our Pastor teaches and preaches from the Word, many preachers just simply do not. Yes we get huge history lessons and and a lot of life application but frankly we (FBC) have always been in a minority in reference to quality preaching. We have awesome Sunday School teachers who faithfully teach the Word every week, but those lessons must be seasoned with theology, history and life application as well. The perfect blend isnt easy. And in my opinion, only preaching sin, hell, Jesus and heaven isnt relative enough to keep todays contemporary family interested enough to come back more than once or twice. I know, blast me, I am sure I am sooo wrong and you are sooo right.
here is a twist on what you see, goes like this...
I think your #1 is doing #2 and mostly in a wait and see mode. You grossly underestimate these men of God. What you see as blind submission, may be something entirely different, who knows, not me..but God does.
And I dont see #3 like you do I see #3 refusing to "test" #2 and see what might happen, and deciding God needs their help and they will get the ball rolling for Him.
Exodus 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you today.
2 Chronicles 20:17
Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
anon - I agree with your point about this public forum not being what is best for our church. However, when Bob Reccord abused finances and no one knew about it, the story had to be told, publicly. Think how much Trinity suffered due to the actions of Bob Gray, but his secret acts had to be made public. Please don't blame those that reported the behavior. Blame the ones doing the acts. Don't blame the Watchdog for writing about what Team Brunson is doing. Sure, its too bad it is public, but it needs to be done. Unless Team Brunson wants to change their abusive actions and styles. Even agreeing to respond to anonymous emails would make the blog irrelevant. He chooses not to respond to them, so I guess in his view, it is better to have a very public blog that everyone can read, than respond to a member's email who chooses not to sign it. Go figure...
anon 4:19 surely your not saying that there has never been irresponsible, premature reporting of assumed factual information...in many cases forever ruining the lives of people were reported as having done something that was either exaggerated or simply not true??? Come on now. And I agree, again and again, as with Gray and Reccord, those who knew or even had suspicion, should have come forward...to the proper authority with all of the facts and evidence. Not taking out a page in the local paper (so to speak of) I know personally of people who have been accused of things that just were not as people assumed they were. My friends lives were never the same, their names were "cleared" of any wrong doing, but people’s minds and opinions were made, set in stone and never changed. This happens every day in the news, people are accused and when acquitted, that doesn’t make the headlines does it?
I think WD intentions were noble. I think if brunson or any other member of the staff for that matter is acting inappropriately then action should be taken to repair, restore or replace. But going about this the wrong way, this way is just plan wrong and a waist of energy. Get a group of men with their facts in order; request a meeting with the trustees. I can not imagine a request from a group of active members, to meet with them being turned down. Simply state that you have questions about the "new" by-laws, be polite, respectful and to the point, no finger pointing or name calling. Send your request in writing to the trustees and Cc as many staff and deacons as you have addresses for. Start there, this is how you would conduct yourself if you were addressing a large business owner or a prominent politician.
I think what the other anon is trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with an opinion, good or bad, wrong or right. We have a right to our opinion and we have a right to voice it. However, what the Anon is saying, I believe, is that this blog is perhaps not the best means to handle the concerns of the Watchdog and the other bloggers.
Yes, you have a right to raise valid concerns about issues in the church. But you must approach these concerns with the right motive and an efficient, Christ pleasing objective of addressing the problems. Sarcastic remarks made toward a blogger that propose the notion that they are stupid and unintelligent based on their viewpoint is uncalled for. That goes the other way as well. Brunson supporters, and I speak for myself, need to be careful not to judge or make a spiritual analysis of those who are raising concerns about the church. But both sides of the argument are hard to defend without crossing these boundaries.
12:11 Obviously you have no problem with this current "situation" in the church.I would suggest that you readdress your comments to the pastor and trustees. There are those that could tell you of personal conversations that have been so hurtful that, it seems the wound will never heal. So don't assume for one minute that the blogger has the market on unkind words spoken!!! Once you have "approached" someone else for an answer to a question or an issue you may grow very old before you get an answer. Or you may get "the treatment", depending on WHO you are.
I like your comments on Glorifying God, and being an example to the lost (exactly what we have been trying to get preached in the sermons). Love and truth work BOTH ways. I find very little from where I sit.
Anon 4:02 Yes we know the different types of preaching there are. You forgot evangelistic! If you have been here for the last twenty years you would have seen plenty of that.
I'm afraid you have been listening to too much PURPOSE DRIVEN
error lately you are beginning to sound like Rick Warren.
Rick Warren has said that you can't preach Hell, sin, propitiation, sanctification, or justification in the messages because it will run off the unchurched.
He would have you believe that contemporary families will not come back if you preach the gospel. So they don't. Well tell that to Jesus.
The contemporary families today are still lost without Jesus Christ.
The contemporary families of today are still sinners in need of a savior.
If contemporary families come to hear of Jesus, the Holy Spirit will work in their heart and they will be convicted of their sin and they will be saved.
If you do not preach Jesus and the gospel they will not know why or how to be saved.
No brother I am not going to BLAST you. You are my brother, but you need to get out of Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book and get back into the new testament.
As for the preaching of Dr Lindsay and Vines, the intent of their messages was always evangelistic. That the lost should be saved.
You say Dr Brunson has a different style. Here in is the problem!
To annon: of 12:55:As someone has previously stated you seem to want the bloggers to go along and get along. Do you think if we bloggers will just go away everything will be lovely in the garden. Maybe but whose garden. You and I know nothing would change, we stll would have NO answers nor would we have a VOICE, thus we blog with a hope of answers in the future. You insult OUR intelligence and spiritual discernment. And please don't call us "friend" while insulting us, friend.
easy, I wasnt calling YOU "friend". I was addressing WD with that point.
so here is a direct inuslt to YOU anon 5:26 You still think you will get answers from this blogging, you will never get any answers to your questions from this blog forum. You feel you have a voice? pay attention to who is "listening" a bunch of us people who are all so afraid of reprisal that we all remain anonymous. Who know which of us are members or just malicious, truly care or truly like stiring a pot, have useful information or just claim to...
No I dont think the bloggers need to go away or that everyone should just "get along" nor do I say that anywhere. and may I add, none of your statements gives any reason for anyone to think you have an ounce of spiritual discernment or intelligence. I could be friends with WD anyday, but friends with YOU, dont count on it. Your as close minded as the team brunson supporters.
ATTN: 4:02 P.M.: Your right, your sooo wrong. I can't believe what I see here. What insoulence. You state your opinion (re:preaching) is "Only sin, hell, Jesus and Heaven isn't relative enough to keep today's "contemporary" family interested enough etc." Would you stand before Jesus and say that? You just have!
Sir, when you think of Jesus dying on the Cross, shedding His Holy Blood for your sins and my sins, is that RELATIVE enough for you??? Your remarks are seriously immature and BLASPHMOUS. Jesus doesn't have to meet your standard of "relativity" (you said your opinion).Do you see that? You said Almighty God must meet your standard of relativity!!! The Creator does NOT answer to the creation. We are the sinners HE is the Savior. Is it becoming relative yet. Contrary to what you state, your very attitude about this subject suggests that we need more sermons on sin, hell, Jesus and Heaven not less.
in my past I personally have been hurt by unkind and untruthful comments and by a preacher and staff members no less. it was a mess, very sad and affected my whole family. from your comment, it sounds like "hear-say" this hasnt happened to you, just what you have been told. So let me tell you. God tells us to forgive everyone that hurts us, I know you know this, we just get misguided and forget sometimes. Satan would have us all get our little feelings and one sided opinions get in the way of what is most important, the Gospel being preached in the puplit and shared daily by you and me. I would bet and I admit for myself that more time has been spent by well meaning Christians on this blog than any one of us has spent sharing Christ, with a coworker or anyone else. Shame on all of us. So the preacher isnt preaching the Gospel as frequently or fervantly as "we" think he should, and we may be right - but how can I cast a stone when I havent shared Christ with anyone today either. Maybe you have, but I am being honest, I have not and am sorry for it.
!!!!ALERT!!!! Dr Watchdog; Anon June 26,2008 4:02pm Qoute;"The perfect blend isnt easy. And in my opinion, only preaching sin, hell, Jesus and heaven isnt relative enough to keep todays contemporary family interested enough to come back more than once or twice". "Jesus and Heaven are not relative";" UNBELIEVABLE"!!!!!! This is why P.D. MUST BE RESISTED. WHEN LEARNING OF CHRIST ISN'T RELATIVE; THERE IS A PROBLEM. I believe Jesus made a statement that contemporary families would find unexceptable; Come unto "Me",all you that labour and are heavy laden,and "I" will give you rest. Take "My" yoke upon you and "LEARN OF ME";[Matt.11:28-29a].The Apostle Paul wrote "For I determined not to know any thing among you, EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST,AND HIM CRICIFIED"[1Cor.2:2]. UNBELIEVABLE!!!
Seeking spiritual discernment and biblical intelligence from all who blog here...
What is the biblical precept for handling conflict?
What is the purpose for such order?
How are we doing that?
Was this sent by letter to the Pastor? I think you should send it to every Trustee, deacon and lay leader in the church. Maybe there will be a response.
Yes, if we mailed it, with a return address, we would get a response.
A visit from the president of the trustees, the head of the deacons, and Bruno.
Then we would go before the discipline committee.
To use a Mac-ism: "See also 'Two Rivers' ".
They put their name on letters. They even used legal means to get access to information that they had a right to see. It got them nothing but a vote kicking their rear-ends out the front door of the church.
So we blog on!
If anyone who sat for years and years under Lindsay and Vines, and were blessed by them, who came to love the Bible and expository preaching, whose lives were touched, who were challenged week by week by week to live for Jesus, whose families were raised under that preaching, whose kids listened to those sermons and were saved and blessed by that preaching: if that fits anyone reading this blog who has sat now for 2+ years under Brunson - I challenge you to listen to 5 Homer Lindsay sermons and 5 Jerry Vines sermons - doesn't matter which ones...ANY 5 from each.
I'm not living in the past, I'm not worshipping Lindsay and Vines. I'm saying that there is Bible preaching that blesses and strengthens Christians and saves the lost, and then....theres NOT that. We had that...and now we have something OTHER THAN what we had before. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying Mac isn't gifted, and I'm not even saying that he's not good to listen to or that he's a terrible preacher. We had for 25 years expository, verse by verse preaching that every single week saved people and encouraged Christians...and now we have something that is not that. And like the frog in the kettle, many at FBC Jax don't realize it.
Way to go WD. We had it and now we don't. "Brunson has a different style" and we know what that is.
It is a Rick Warren/Bill Hybels watered-down gospel, entertainment package.
Right - my point is that the switch to Brunson is not just "style" (although during his first year I thought it was)...its a totally different "thing". A typical Mac Brunson sermon is a different animal from what Vines and Lindsay did (and what a John McArthur, or David Jeremiah, or maybe Junior Hill still do) and what Mac Brunson does. A huge difference! Now if that's what people want, OK, but don't tell me that its "style", and that to point this out is "worshipping the past".
But I think what Mac is and how he preaches is not even the worst part. The worst part is this: as a preacher, he is something other than what he has branded himself to be. I have to give credit to preachers like Joel Osteen and Ed Young, Jr....they haven't tried to brand themselves as deep theologian, conservative, inerrant preachers. They are what they are. Mac on the other hand came here under the guise of being a verse by verse, bible expositor, who preaches Jesus and the inerrant word. In fact, IN FACT, that is exactly WHY our search committee went after him so hard!!
So as Vines used to say: what's the difference between a liberal who doesn't believe the word, and a conservative doesn't preach it...NOTHING...end result is the same: no Jesus preached.
Just my two cents.
I'll add this: when Mac came in here and took the summer of 06 on Wed nights to make a conscious decision to NOT preach the Bible but deliver Christian history lessons: when that happened, the "Red Alert" bell started ringing in many Christians' heads about Mac Brunson...I still find that hard to believe that he dared to do that upon arrival - knowing that our church is known for Bible, Bible, Bible...Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night...and he comes in and says: "OK, no bible on Wed, but I need to teach you bible history."...wow. But I love history and the history of Christianity is very important...but not from the pulpit! Maybe for a church training class...but to replace the Bible?
Sorry to rant...just wanted to throw that in on this discussion of Brunson and PD.
Have you ever wondered why some pastors don't preach the bible? Maybe they would have to really study and make a sermon out of scripture!!! Its easy to exhort history or current books or magazines.Or make the scripture fit whatever one wants it to say. What's important like the person said....set up a contemporary message for those who arn't interested in the "gospel" it might turn them off; or blend in a "little" bible and a lot of history, psychological babberish, and something other than bible and claim they are delivering a potent and "NEW" message so no one would be offended and we can all go home and be happy.happy..happy. and full, knowing our sins were never brought up before us today.
Throw in a little faster and upbeat music and really get modern and watch a few new movies that the teenagers see and comment on them, making yourself in tune with the younger crowd.
Its all hype. Its all about maintaining their positions in authority and in charge. It's the Purpose Driven Lie!!
The unfortunate thing is that many are doing it. They have bought into this "mold" (PD) of something new. We don't want to be like we were five years ago. Rick Warren told preachers if they didn't change to Purpose Driven, in 5 yrs. they would not have a ministry. That's when many stopped trusting God and now they are loosing their churches anyway. This I am OK, your Ok, feel good gospel is rampant. How many souls have gone to hell with this stuff fed to them?? Where is the preaching on Sin, Salvation and the Gospel of Christ!!! We have to step out in faith and not wonder if chaos will abound, but whatever we do, we do for Jesus!!
In the meantime, all those that feed on this PD propaganda will be in no position to understand the "GOSPEL", the mysteries that Paul preaches and the doctines given to the Jew, the Gentile, and the Church.
Many ministries are in the flesh, edifying no one but the Purpose Driven, self serving preachers, themselves. We have already seen a blog showing the results that can happen with this doctrine. One speaks of sin, Jesus, heaven, hell,
as not relevant to the "contemporary" family today!!!! God forbid that we fall any further into this trap.
Col 2:8..Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
II Tim 4:2-5..Preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort will all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
I Cor 9:16b...Yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
Eph 4:14a...that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.
I wonder, if you feel so strongly about our pastor, why not just leave. Furthermore, why not stand up if you are so called by God to proclaim the hypocrisy? Prophets ordained by God were not called to proclaim the sins of the government or of the nation in secrecy. Instead they were to be bold and proclaim it, so that everyone knew who they were and what the issue was. So, while I have seen you proclaim your problems with the church and the pastor, I have yet to see you proclaim who you are, making your blogs seem more like rants and you more of a coward than a faithful member of the church trying to do what is right.
I invite you to lose your coward status by emailing me. I would enjoy getting instructed in the wrong ways of our church's interpretation of the Bible and it's deviation from the original intent of our forefathers by someone as knowledgeable as you. firstname.lastname@example.org
Jennifer Lynn Rehme
Cory, can you give us the verses of scripture that preaching in itself does not get people saved?
Hi Jennifer - you're confused. Let me help clear your confusion.
I'm not a prophet. I don't claim to speak for God. I'm not your pastor.
I'm a blogger.
I write about events at FBC Jax that are very disturbing to many people. I haven't advertised my site. I haven't gathered money from people for it. I haven't claimed to speak for God. No one worships me.
Very un-Christian of you to call me a coward. You don't know me. I'm not a coward. But you MUST think that I am, and that I'm doing something wrong - perhaps because to consider the things I've written would mean that you perhaps have been lied to and duped by your pastor and you're not willing right now to consider that as a possibility. So you instead must call me a coward. Too bad. Open your eyes.
I won't email you. I don't know you. My blog is not a place for me to meet people or connect with them. Its a place where hundreds of people come every day to read and discuss the abuses of Mac Brunson at our church.
Now, having said that...care to offer a defense of just ONE of the abuses here? Probably not. But that's OK, I understand.
Jennifer is correct. WE are all cowards if we are to ashamed or uncertain of our positions in that we have to hide behind anonymity. This is not a character assasination, so to speak of, but an observation. Also, I didnt read that she called anyone of you a prophet, it was an analogy or example that she was using to make a point that is commonly missed, overlooked or just ignored.
I have heard of this blog and have checked it out every now and then. One of the things that really burns me is the comments of Paige Patterson to the seminary students last year, basically slandering our church name to the SWBTS students. As you point out watchdog Patterson said that our church treated Mac poorly when he came to our church, actually equating our treatment of Mac as wanting to kill him. One must ask the question: Why would Paige Patterson say that to SWBTS students? Think about it! If it was not true, and it was NOT true, I know, Mac and family were given much when they arrived, and every one of their requirements were met. So why did Paige Patterson say that - well, he must have taken Mac's word for it. Which means Mac lied about us. Or maybe someone else lied to Paige Patterson. But Mac was NOT treated poorly by our church in any sense of the word. Thank you watchdog for shedding light where it needs to be shone.
Great Anon. We're all cowards. Thanks.
Now, about the abuses of Mac Brunson...anyone? Anyone want to defend Mac Brunson? Any of you coward anonymous Brunson defenders want to point out how some of these things are false, out of context, irrelevant, lies, slander, etc?
Or is just: "you're a coward to be anonymous".
TO: anon 6/26 @ 6:37 and "as it is written" 6/26 @ 7:03
Where did you learn how to read?
Taking things out of context or changing the meaning of a sentence to suit your agenda sure is convenient for you, and makes me look bad. Blasphemous, insolence, “Judge not, lest you be judged” most of what everyone says in these blogs is full of insult and irreverent (among other things)
So, let us just say I wasn’t very clear with my sue of words, but lets go back to them...What I said was (in my opinion, only preaching sin, hell, Jesus and heaven isn’t relative enough to keep today’s contemporary family interested enough to come back more than once or twice. I did not say "Jesus and Heaven are not relative" The point is if you are an instructor, teacher, preacher (whatever) you have to prepare a presentation of the material in a fashion by which will both captivate and compel the listener. You have to keep their attention and give them a desire for more information. I didn’t say that the Gospel in itself couldn’t do that, my point is that the average 25-45 yr old unchurched adult raised in this "contemporary" society needs extra stimulation in order to peak curiosity and focus on new information. Or in other words, when I bring my lost neighbors who are 35 years old to church, if all they hear is only the straight forward Gospel, its not that the Holy Spirit isn’t still working or capable or that I am saying that isn’t relevant or wont work, all I am saying is that these young people wont even come in or sit long enough to find out what the Gospel message is. Blasphemous, insolence, I don’t think so when you put it into the context it was intended.
Get your heads out of the sand. I don’t mind doing or trying something different or what ever it takes to reach my neighbor for Christ. Statistically, something must be working, we have seen over 300 Baptized to date this year and we only had that amount (approx) for the entire year in the past two your (I think, not sure exactly)
Again, we are so sure what should be coming from the pulpit, but we cant control what comes from our own mouth very well. Let me think, I want the preacher to preach only the Gospel so lost people will here what God provides for them. But…ready…when was the last time I brought a lost couple to church to hear anything from the pulpit…I know it has been too long for me, what about all of you? When was the last time you took as much time as it takes to read and type in this blog to sit down with a lost person and tell them about Gods love, heaven and hell and the precious blood that Jesus spilt for them?
Thanks for the opportunity to post WD.
Circle the wagons, Dog! Hit Mac in the one area he will truly pay attention. . .finances!! I would venture to guess he is giving more credence to your "little blog" than others may care to admit. Hit the bottom line for several weeks and he may actually send you a personal e-mail or grace your blog with a post of his own! Keep it up, friend!! You are certainly not "satanic," you just have an opinion that not everyone shares. So goes for every opinion! Someone isn't going to like it! Call Nashville and tell Morris he can have Mac back!
dont be like that WD. why is it not being a coward for someone to remain anonymous when the want to speak out against the pastor, but you are a coward if you want to defend him and remain anonymous. isnt that a double standard?
Anon said all anons are cowards...thus if you're anonymously defending Brunson (or anonymously telling WD that the blog is wrong), then you're a "coward" according to Anon.
I personally don't think posting anonymously tells me anything about a persons bravery or cowardice.
sure it does, how could you define it differently or put any other spin on it? I mean, I actually think of myself as a brave person, but obviusly not brave enough to step up to the plate and sign my name to my opinions. In my mind that makes me a coward.
Cory:Regarding your statement: "Preaching in and of itself, does not get people saved. The worship service is not for the lost." Rom:10:l4; "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall the believe in him of whom the have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Why do we have a New Testament Bible that preaches throughout, Salvation through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ
One must be SAVED(!!!!) (FIRST STEP) BEFORE they can become,as you put it, part of the "corporate church". Ohterwise how would they worship and give thanks as you put it. You state the corporate church service is not for the lost. Tell that to those who have been saved in churches where Jesus was preached as the first priority. You place salvation of the lost person in the "corporate service" in a secondary position. Maybe they will "happen" to get saved, you state. The Holy Spirit does not take a second position in church. There is no happenstance in Salvation.
Again, one must be saved before they can continue in the "works" of being "rebuked, inspired and prepared to go, etc."(your words).
If church service is not for the lost, why do we give an invitation at the end of the service for anyone who wants to be saved? Is this "just in case some one here might be under conviction". An after thought, if you will. This sounds like the services you might be familiar with are either social gospel, or the seeker friendly, purpose driven type. I can tell you that for 65 years at FBCJ Jesus was the priority. And the lost person was important to be reached.
John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (Jesus speaking). This is the starting point!!!!
Mark l6 Vs.15: And he said unto them, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature". (Jesus speaking His final commands to His disciples.)
Great. That makes you a coward. But because you've evaluated yourself as a coward, doesn't mean that I'm a coward. Your motives for not putting your name on your post might be because you're just a spineless yellow-belly coward; I don't know and I don't presume to know. But if you say so, OK.
My motives may be totally different than yours. And my posting anonymously doesn't mean I'm a spineless coward like you say you are, because I know me and I know my motives for being anonymous. I also know the risks of not being anonymous and the risks I run of being "exposed" as some would like to do. So I am very much not a coward. But those that don't like what I write apparently MUST rationalize their own failure to see the problems at our church by saying I'm just a "coward" and it helps them dismiss facts on the blog.
But I understand.
Mac called those who don't tithe as robbers of God Sunday. Of all the 8000+ people in the auditorium, there was actually only one human being who robbed God. ONLY ONE! That was Donald McCall Brunson, and he stole $300,000 from God. Let's assume the giver of the gift felt called of God to give the gift to the Lord's work and there were no alterior motives. Mac had a pastoral obligation to have that member give the gift to the church and not directly to him. That way the church as a whole could determine if it was worthwhile to give the gift to the pastor.
So the ONE SINGLE SOLITARY person who robbed God was Mac himself.
THE TRUTH HURTS.
Easy. I didn’t say spineless or yellow - belly and I will be sure to remember you did, next time I bump into you in the hallway. (kidding)
My point, commonly missed, and I said, it isn’t a character assassination but and observation that it is cowardly to point fingers, make accusations, call people out, make threats, bow up our chest and say what we are going to do and what needs to be done, but we, me, you all of us hide behind anonymity. I don’t think either our Biblical or political forefathers would have or could have achieved anything had they stayed anonymous and by exposing ourselves, how bad could the reprisal be? Certainly not DEATH that is what the Disciple and early church leader faced as well as our Nations forefathers. It isn’t that the anonymity of the blog is bad or wrong or that an individual is a coward for remaining anonymous, but it is an act of cowardice to say and do what ALL of us are saying and doing from both sides and remain publicly silent. This might not work, but like we know our apartment building is on fire, but we are unwilling to stand in the courtyard and raise our voice for fear it will bring attention to us instead of the fire.
Mac had a pastoral obligation to have that member give the gift to the church and not directly to him.
This is ridiculous. There is no place in scripture where this can be supported.
That way the church as a whole could determine if it was worthwhile to give the gift to the pastor.
Where does the church have a voice in how an individual spends, gives, distributes his personal wealth?
do you go to the church with your finances and ask them how to distribute them?
This was not a gift to the church but to an individual.
Yet, assuming you really believe what you say, what dollar amount do you set to determine when a personal gift has to be go through the church body for its worthiness to be a gift?
Anon - I'll answer that: are you a legalist? You actually demand scripture before you can spot something blatantly unethical? How far has our church fallen that even our trustees and deacons can't spot unethical behavior? Do your employees at work do that to you? "Where in scripture does it say that I should...." No scripture is required to know that the head of a 501(c)3 religious organziation should avoid the appearance of impropriety by accepting gifts directly from donors of the 501(c)3 that pays him his salary and benefits and relocation expenses. Its universally seen as a conflict of interest and almost all corporations have strict, VERY STRICT rules governing the accepting of gifts. Mac says that pastors should have the highest of ethical standards, above even other Christians. Accepting that gift is unethical - highly unethical.
And I'll add that Mac knowing his book that is read by seminary students on how to pastor says pastors should avoid the accepting of gifts - the accpeting of the gift makes him look like a hypocrite. A HUGE hypocrite.
But Mac for some reason couldn't do the right thing and refuse the gift. But boy, it must have felt REALLY GOOD to stroke that deed. SO GOOD that it prevented him from doing the honorable thing. Too bad. I wonder if he and Honey giggled and high-fived on the way to the car after signing it.
You have lost your ability to discern anon, if you actually, in your heart, believe there is nothing wrong with the pastor accepting a gift of that size from one of our donors. But then again you haven't heard much Bible preached over the last 2 years, so perhaps thats part of the discernment problem.
Anon didn't say that the man can't decide how to give a gift or that the church has a say in how he gives his money. But you miss the point that not all gifts must be accepted. The problem is not the giver of the gift, its the receiver. Mac should politely refused the gift and told him that his needs are already met by the church and thus he can't take it. And he could have used his pastorly influence to recommend that the man give it to the church and not to the "man of God".
Then of course it looked really bad when Mac had the church produce the commercial for the man's sons and played it during his sermon, and on TV-12 the next week. Looks like quid-pro-quo...thanks for that $300k piece of land, I'll return the favor by putting on a free commercial for your sons. Not saying it IS quid pro quo...just LOOKS LIKE it..
I know the Watchdog appreciates it when I post on topic so hopefully he is pleased with this post.
If the Watchdog is going to declare the month of July a special month, then I would like to make a proposal.
I would like to call on all the bloggers to take the month of July and pray each day rather than blog each day. Let's take the same amount of time that we would spend blogging and spend that time on our knees instead of at a computer. We can pray for our church, the leadership, the members of the church, the bloggers (pro or anti Brunson) and for the people of Jacksonville. For one month, let's talk to the Lord about our concerns rather than argue and cyber-assisinate each other. I hope you will all try and do this as I am going to try and commit myself to do this too.
As much as I hate to admit it, WD is right on this specific point. First, all of us are instructed in the Word to avoid the very appearance of evil. Case in point, Dr. L wouldn’t even go in a restaurant that served alcohol. Free cheap watch, a piece of swamp land or a lot of any value to build your home on, of any value, gives an appearance of some "monkey business" an extravagant gift can be accepted and certainly the gift giver can not be faulted for their generosity if there are no strings attached, but my question is DiD this transaction go before the trustees or not? It would have been "nice" if the membership found out in a church meeting, even if it wasn’t a matter to vote on, but because it appears to be covert, then it appears to be unethical and as I quoted, we are to avoid the very appearance of evil. I don’t know how Mac can untie this knot, but it certainly bares notice. If it was above board, legal and ethical, I would still be concerned how those outside our church would view some of this extravagance. I think he has the right to spend “his” money anyway he wants. But I wish he would consider the message it has sent the general public and our membership. I must add, I really don’t think there was “evil intent” on either part of this land deal. I don’t think Mac felt he was doing anything wrong accepting the gift, I doubt he gave it a second thought, and that is what I think he did wrong. Had he thought it through more carefully, given the chance at a “mulligan” I just don’t think he would handle this the same way.
How about that WD, did you ever think a member of team brunson would support your position on any of this?
Robert - I will continue to do both. Blog and pray.
I think you are just beating a dead horse to death with all the constant ranting about the land deal. It was a gift given by someone who wanted to give it and received by someone who probably appreciated it greatly. (I know I sure would!)
I can assure you that there will be no answers on this issue forthcoming from the pastor, deacons, or trustees. And as much as I know you hate to hear it--they will NEVER respond to anonymous emails or anonymous blogs. I don't know of any pastor worth his salt who would.
Just my opinion but I'd sure like to see some more constructive things on this blog.
Anon - let me add a few comments to your post on the land.
I'll even go one step further - I believe if it WERE UP TO MAC he would not have accepted that land gift. I won't say anything else on that. I believe he knew it, and I'll say he knew it might cause problems, but there were other "forces" if you know what I mean.
But he's done what he's done. I don't think he didn't see anything wrong with it, or that it was "harmless"...he had to know what was in the book with his name on it, cautioning pastors about accepting gifts. But as I said, the gift was TOO GOOD for at least 1/2 of Team Brunson to pass up.
Now, what I fear, and I don't rule this out: that the land gift was used to entice team brunson to come to our church. That the gift was sought out by certain members on the search committee and then used as a carrot to sweeten the pot to get them to come. I know some have said its not so, but until I hear it from the pastor himself that possibility is very real. And that might, MIGHT have tax consequences as I'm not sure the IRS would view it as a "gift" and not part of a relocation package.
okay, so all I'll say is from where I "sat" from my perspective I'll say it wasnt so. No specific housing accomodations were factored in. not before or after, not temporary or permanent. lets just say, I think he was given assurance that the "needs" would be met.
RM - I do appreciate your input on this blog, and hope you continue to add your perspective as a pastor.
But I really want you to explain your view that him accepting the land is not unethical - not saying scripture forbids it - but that Mac as the head of a 501(c)3 religious organization, drawing salary, benefits, and relo package from that organization, could accept a gift of this size given DIRECTLY to him by a DONOR of the organization, rather than the gift going to the ORGANIZATION he leads?
Please explain how that is NOT unethical.
And explain how it doesn't make Mac appear to be a hypocrite given the quote from his pastor's guidebook.
And how it doesn't make him look greedy to his congregation by accepting it just weeks after coming here.
12:46 You say the average 25-45 year old "Unchurched"(Purpose driven term) adult raised in this "contemporary" society needs extra stimulation in order to peak curosity and forcus on new information". Where did you get this stuff? Your generation is no different from generations in the past. All were "contemporary" at one time. This is a common mistake that many young people make, they think they are the only ones that have ever been young (contemporary). What about children and old people that may get saved in the SAME service, how do you explain that. Jesus reaches people all ages and levels, when the time is right He speaks to that person. He doesn't need our help. Man has always tried to "help God out". You are looking for a "hook or gimmick" to provide "extra stimulation" (your words) to capture peoples attention in order to tease them into coming back again to church,you say. This is full blown "Purpose Driven". Jesus doesn't need gimmicks, works, or entertainment to reach the lost. If these "unchurched" (lost) people are looking for entertainment, they will never be satisfied with "Just the Gospel" as you call it. You cannot "trick" people into hearing or being interested in the things of God, such as Salvation, and the Gospel.
As I see it, it is your attitude and approach to the Gospel that makes it APPEAR irrelevant. You seem to have a true desire to do good by bringing lost people to the services and to witness to them. You are to be commended for your effort. Keep that desire to do good. Don't sell the Gospel short it is the beginning, the Cornerstone of all worship. HE
"draws all men unto Himself", for centuries, without help or "extra stimulation" from us. "HE gives every man a measure of faith". People know when they come to church that it is exactly that, "a church".
Stay in the Word,in prayer, continue to "learn" more about Jesus. Stay AWAY from this mod, contemporary, Purpose Driven movement (seeker friendly). Trust Jesus and watch what happens. You will be a great witness for Him. Bless you for your interest and desire to bring others to HIM.
Some nice things said and certainly you mean well. But obviously you are not aware of the changes in society today. Not sure what rock you live under. There are tons of resources that depict the changes in our modern culture of young adults, which you seem to assume I am in that group - thanks, but hardly. As a grandparent, I can say that from my parents to our grandchildren, not too much at all is the same? The average attention span of an adult between the age of 25 and 45 is 30 to 40 minutes. Teen have an attention span of approx 20 to 30 minutes. Instant gratification is at an all time high. Lack of respect for authority is being bread in homes of absent parents (not always fathers) and children raised in those single parent homes is 100 times more than when I was a child. And you say nothing has changed? "Contemporary" "current" "present date" thinking and behavior is constantly evolving. NO, I don’t think the Gospel needs a "hook" but if we aren’t reaching the lost, who will? If they wont come to hear it from us, where will they get there information. Yes there are a lot of other great Christian/Gospel preachers, churches and resources out there, but we are talking about Jacksonville, our neighbors and our church. Why is it so wrong to even consider what if even anything different we might do to attract "unchurched" people to come and hear?
Ps. I have heard that term "unchurched" for many years and yet have only heard about the PD movement in the last couple of years. The PD movement didn’t make it up, they may have coined it, but you act so afraid of the PD thing much like a Baptist that is sure that the all Methodist are all lost souls or that all Church of God and Pentecostals preach heresy or what ever. If the church that are using Purpose Driven methods are reaching one more lost person than they did first year, then I love it! If being Purpose Driven keeps a church from having to close its doors and members are added, that’s great! If they preach against the Word of God then God help them. Oh and by the way, "where do I get this stuff"? Many, many years working in businesses and corporations around America. Working as a certified counselor in both government and church settings. Teaching and conducting training seminars, studying human behavior and cultural climates, doing analytical studies and research on various personalities, learning habits and disorders. Oh and I almost forgot, teaching Sunday school for children, teens and adults for more than 25 years. It’s not like I am making "stuff" up. How about you?
What Dr Lindsay did ask of members was a name of a lost person he and his visiting partner could go and share the Lord Jesus. Isn't that still a good practice? Is that done anymore?
I wouldn’t say it isn’t done, but we should be more encourage and certainly trained and prepared, to go ourselves.
Dr. Lindsay did try to get to as many homes as possible, Dr Vines, not as much. I truly wish we could have an organized visitation like we did back in the 70's. men and couples meeting in the dining room from 5:30 to 6:30 and then going out into our city from there, unified, of one mind and one spirit. I think it is a little watered down when for convenience sake we started meeting in parking lots around town and then going out. It still worked, but now even that isnt as prominent as it once was. Again, being led by Dr. L with such an emphasis on visitation, seeing and hearing from him, knowing he was going "with us" was huge. Going from the parking lots around town, we can only assume there are more of us, including our pastor and staff that are out with us. Now, who knows...just a thought? Even if we did it from the church once a month would be awesome.
Can't do that. Donald Brunson told the church, in his zeal to get us to approve his school, that going to people's houses doesn't work anymore.
People aren't home anymore...that's what he said in no uncertain terms.
WD, I only deem to reply to your comments simply because I have found a break in my day. You are foolish to deem me not able to reply back to your drivel. I am very well capable and inclined to do so. However,if I were to do so, I would have to take everyone of the complaints you mention and write a book on how much each one goes against the very book you claim to defend. This is a useless waste of my time, something which you seem to have very much of since you write so many times on here during the day. Reminds me of scripture...something about how too much time on one's hands leads to evildoing.
As for being a coward, you are. If you choose to remain in secret you are nothing more than one, and possibly less. I didn't claim you were a prophet. You should learn to read with more discernment. Perhaps a dictionary would help. I have a few English handbooks you may borrow, if there is a need. The person below your statement is correct. Anyone who is not willing to state who they are is afraid...of what I do not know.
As for me being less of a christian because I called you a coward, well this provides two problems. First of all, I believe you now have stated you have a double standard. You call Dr. Brunson names that are not in anyway nice, but are, what you feel, correct. However, you cannot, yourself, stand to be called those same names. So, we either go one way and say it is okay as a Christian to do so. Which makes us both okay . Or in another way, we must say that it is unChristian, making your statements as "wrong" as mine. Which then, would mean that your blogs would cease to exist simply on the old saying of "If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all." It would also mean you would have to cease with the statements that those who do not agree with you are blind to the truth, which is in fact your truth, and, in a sense are dumb to the truth.
Secondly, I see nothing unchristian with speaking the truth. Even Christ himself called the religious rulers of the day dogs. Would you prefer to get that title? You are nothing better. You are leading people away and dividing the church. Sadly, it is probably the people who do not bring their Bibles to church that are your followers.
Here is one for you, the only one I have time to write. In your reasons why you are having this Independence month, you state that tithing 10% is legalistic and Old Testament. That alone makes me see the fallacy of your statements and makes me discount every word you write. Besides the Biblical view of tithing, which I hope you have been smart enough to read, I ask you. Where have your protests been in years past? Giving a tenth of your money BEFORE taxes has always been at the heart of our church. If you condemn Dr. Brunson on this, then you must publically condemn Dr. Vines, and both Dr. Lindsays. If you do this, then the only reason you stay at our church is to cause division, which is another reason for you to not only leave but for me to use the word Christ used: Dog. If you wish to retract your statements, I understand.
Now, I do have a warning for you. I doubt you will heed it, but as a Christian, I must say it. False teachers will be judged. Say what you will, but do it wisely. And to those who are listening to his words, perhaps you should first be reading God's words before you read this man's blog...
correct me if I am wrong, but that was recorded at First Dallas not FBCJAX. I beleive this may still be his position, but I rarely miss a service, I was in the one when we talked about the possibity of a school and just dont remember that being said to us. Either way - Also, he doesnt say that you can not reach them door to door or that we shouldnt have a visitation program nor does he say the only way is through a school, he says that it is a more effective way...and having not been down that road here, who is to say.
I pastor a baptist church and I really think you should take the time you spend blogging and pray for your pastor.
He may be wrong, he may be right, but I don't think this is the best way to handle whatever this situation is. Especially considering church matters should be handled within the church, not in potential view of the whole world.
If there is moral, financial, or doctrinal discrepancy then leave.
Regardless, I hope FBC Jax once again reaches (and surpasses) the heights it has attained in the past. My prayers are with you all.
Sorry Charlie - November 2007, in the auditorium of FBC Jax Mac uttered those words.
I'm not at home
You're not at home
Nobody is at home anymore
And the gullible sheep said "Amen".
And I and others hung our heads in shame and disgust.
And if he would have mooned us all the gullible sheep would have said "baaaa....baaaa" and would have given him a standing ovation.
So absolutely ridiculous. One of his top 10 dumbest things ever uttered since coming.
Not that he believes it. That's bad enough if he believes it (which he doesn't I'm sure). But he said it to us as though WE would believe it - to say something so stupid from the pulpit as though WE would believe it is to disrepect us. But he doesn't have a high view of his congregation. We're too stupid to bring our Bibles, we can't handle our finances so he praises Jesus if we don't get raises.
But the "nobody is at home" quote was to to try to persuade us that the school was the right thing.
Thanks Jen. You sound angry. Your words don't bother me, because I know they obviously come from someone who is not rational, that can't look at facts square in the face. You've drunk the Kool Aid perhaps.
I recommend not coming back here. This is a blog, and you don't have to come here if its rubbish.
But since you're here, what do you think about the land gift? Ethical or unethical?
About the tithe Jen.
Yes, Homer was wrong. Sorry. I love Homer, and he was wrong that the "storehouse" in the OT was equivilent to the church.
But Mac loves to decry "legalism" in general terms, causing great confusion among our members in areas like drinking...but he himself, if it suits his purposes, uses legalism to get his people to give money.
Open your eyes Jen.
More about the tithe:
I'm not saying either that a Christian should not give 1/10 of their income, or more. They should give as they purpose in their heart to give. And I don't have a problem with a preacher, like Vines, saying that 10% is the place to start. But to do what Mac does, and say that perhaps the reason you're so messed up financially is because you don't give 10%, is wrong. There are people today who don't give 10%. Not that they are robbing God, but they don't have it.
And I'll say it again. The one single, solitary human being of the 8000+ present Sunday that we can say "robbed God" is Mac Brunson, taking a gift that could have gone to the Lord's work. Sorry, he robbed God...and boy did he rob him good...to the tune of $300k...I'd hate to have to answer for that one.
your theology on tithing is just so wrong WD. and I know we could toss scripture back and forth until the Lord returns. My question to you is, how can you claim better scriptural disernment than of those who have been through seminary, given their full time lives to the study of the Word and who almost universally and collectively agree on the generally accepted teaching on tithe. Every Baptist and Nazarene Minister I have ever met or heard speak beleives and teaches what you claim is misunderstood or just plain wrong. You (and certain members of this blog) are some of the first people who dont say, "I wont or it's not for me" but to say EVERYBODY else has it all wrong and they all have had it wrong for years and I am one of the chosen few that understand it the way God intended and it everyone was as diserning as I am (had hasnt touched any Kool-aid) then all of you would see the light!
Okay, so I'm drinking Kool-aid, what are you drinking?
so enlighten us oh great one. What was the OT storehouse?
And we might be able to throw in the half a million that he is taking to start his school. The school should have been started by funds given by people who feel a school would be a good thing for our church...a good idea for perhaps a special offering. Nope...Mac lied and told us door to door doesn't work, thus we MUST, WE ARE COMPELLED TO START A SCHOOL if we have any hope of reaching our city...that was the set up...then he closed the scam by getting us to vote in an unannounced business meeting to take $500,000 that was given for the church ministry to go to the school start up.
Yikes, I'd hate to answer for that one too..taking $500k from God's "storehouse" to start a school.
Lump in the the $100k for the pastor's suite, and the first two years' of family salary, and yepper we're at a cool million...AND COUNTING!!!
Look it up yourself wise guy. What was the OT storehouse? And tell us how it relates or translates to gathering funds for a church?
Look, I really don't mind someone wanting to tithe. Really. And teach people that it is a good principle, and point to Malachi as the place from where you get the principle that it is good to give 1/10 of your income.
But please, don't insult my intelligence by telling me that I MUST tithe because its an OT requirement, and that my finances are probably messed up because I don't tithe.
Here's one for you. The Republicans pray, the Democrats pray. Whose prayer is answered the Republicans or the Democrats?
If you said one or the other you are wrong in both instances. God has allowed man to have control over the earth. What most of all activity is "flesh". Very little of "spiritual". People have been fighting and killing each other for years and that is not going to stop. One of the greatest questions ever raised was by Cain when he asked "am I my brother's keeper". There is a scripture that states "a brother is born for adversity". Would this be a flesh or spiritual brother? Either is correct.
Remember do all for the glory of God. This can only be done in the "spirit". The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I see a lot of flesh sneaking into this blog but not a great deal of spirit as some never quote scripture to back up their position. They just pick and disagree without stating what, other than what they believe, do they base these factors on.
Lets stay on point and use some scripture instead of name calling. You would be surprised who are posting here.
Another thing people hate to admit that they were wrong on something, you know about marriage when half get divorced because they (the couple) fell out of love or whatever. Or your family member does something you would never have believed. You learn from that experience.Things are not always what they appear.
The disciples of John thought they were properly baptised....Paul had to teach them about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now if you had asked them (the disciples of John) were they baptised they would have believed it...they were not baptised as Paul explained to them and then they were really "Baptised". See you can learn that your beliefs are wrong. Maybe coming to this blogsite will enlighten some. There are a lot of people in Hell today because they were believing something that was untrue. God leads us unto all truth. There will always be disagreements between christians, unbelievers, and atheists. Get rational and back up your beliefs with the Bible and then blog. Just my thinking.
Sorry Jen, you're still angry and it comes through in your post.
This blog is not about me, or you, or anybody else.
Its a blog about Donald M. Brunson and his abuses of our church.
Therefore I won't allow your long, angry post that is about ME.
Start your own blog about the Watchdog and his cowardice, and about tithing.
Now, if you want to come here and defend the actions of Mac Brunson, then by all means have at it.
Good to hear back from you today.
Since I don't know all the private details of Mac receiving the land and the spirit in which it was given, then I can't say it was unethical. I personally know quite a few of the megachurch pastors and many of them receive gifts much like this one though. Its more widespread than you can imagine.
I do know that Mac has to declare it as income though. At least the government is getting their fair share. The one who gave it gets a great tax deduction too.
Now that I've said that, I do think it is unethical for Mac to write the book he wrote and say the things he said and then take the land and live where he lives. That is the epitome of a hypocrite.
I doubt seriously if the one who gave the land would have just given it to the church. Usually when someone gives a gift like that it has a lot of "strings" attached to it... Kind of scary isn't it?
From what I read on here and if even 10% of it is true, then your church is in huge trouble. We'll be praying for you all.
I was trying to think of the best way for you guys to handle all your questions and I'm not sure there is a perfect solution. You could always have a business meeting like that fiasco they had at Bellevue or you could have one like they had at Two Rivers but then you would be out the door. Scripturally and practically, I think the best way is for you to sit down personally with the pastor and/or trustees and deacons and ask your questions. Not sure that will ever happen though.
Good luck--you're going to need it!
Jen - you seem to think you have an open mind and that you know what you are talking about but you sound like a fool on two matters:
First, I remain anonymous as a FAVOR to Team Brunson. Once I put my name out here, it ups the ante on this "meaningless blog." Right now, I can be dismissed as an anonymous coward that no one even knows who I am. But if I wanted to get real nasty, I would put my name here and begin to take more official action which would quickly be put in the press, both nationally and locally. So, as upset as I am, I still show constraint by remaining anonymous. What you perceive as cowardice, is actually showing Christian restraint out of respect for the church. Believe me, my remaining anonymous is what the leadership is praying for.
Second, read this article and report back to where the Bible teaches any of us to tithe. If you can't, realize why I called you a fool. Thanks.
By the way, I don't think I know more than all those seminary graduates. They also know the Bible does not teach tithing. Listen carefully, they will tell you Homer Lindsay preached it and play his audiotapes, or they will tell you their dad taught them to do it. The honest ones won't dare tell you that you are under a curse like Malachi teaches.
Finally, read the four chapters in malachi and then tell me: Was it the priests (modern day men of God/pastors) that were robbing God, or the people that had given the food? Who was to bring the WHOLE tithe into the storehouse? The priests! They were keeping $307K of it!
RM; You mentioned that you would like to see some constructive things on this site. Since you are a pastor, may I ask what you have learned about the PURPOSE DRIVEN movement?
You have officially "jumped the shark" on this blog with Mac's picture and the red circle/slash - (www.jumptheshark.com) The credibility of this blog - and your arguments - will wane quickly as it becomes more hateful and extreme.
Why don't you go ahead and put your name out there. It might prove good for all of you. All of this anonymous stuff is getting you nowhere.
Have you been called to preach??
If so, have you been given the gift to pastor??
If not, then what is so amazing to me is that someone who hasn't been called to preach, and hasn't been given the gift to pastor has a clue as to how it ought to be done.
Normally those who tell you how to do it are those who have never done it.
I doubt very seriously whether your blog is making as much difference as you think. Seems to me that Dr. Brunson is going on as should you.
If you were as spiritual as you claim to be, and knew the Word as you claim to know, you would have the discernment to know that's it time to find another church home rather than sow discord in the one you say you love.
Mac's land, house, money, book deals, etc. are really none of your business. If he has done wrong, his sin will find him out. God doesn't need your help to find him out.
The charasteristics of a carnal church was their "strifes and divisions." Sounds to me like you and your cause fit that description to the letter.
I just read the posting that Jennifer sent you, but you did not have the decency to post. Too bad you were shamed by her! I am sure that it will be shared on other avenues via the internet. Your credibility is in question now once again. By the way, it is very easy for anyone to find out exactly who you are...just a little detective work is needed. Be very careful what slander you post. Stick to the facts. Back up your accusations with documents and proof. If issues exist, bring them before the church to deal with them, not the internet. Everyone knows that the internet is full of lies and half truths as well as some facts. In short, much of the internet data is very unreliable. Perhaps you would get more respect if you were open, honest, and faced the people head on with Godly grace in your heart. Perhaps a discussion blog about the weather would be more productive for you. This one is not glorifying Jesus at all. See you in church!
RM - I agree with you completely about the land gift.
Now you raise an interesting question...how to handle this from here...let me pose some thoughts on this.
After looking at what happened at Bellevue and Two Rivers - not a pretty sight - there is one way and ONLY one way for this mess to be resolved in a Christ-honoring fashion, and having Mac stay be God's man, and the people of God to be freed to follow him and love him. One way only. And one man holds the key.
One and only one. Its Mac himself. He can stand in the pulpit on a Sunday night. And he can explain his actions. He can do it from an honestly humble, sincere heart. Not doing it begrudgingly (ok people, now its time to address these annoying issues..we've seen him do that)....I mean in love, and genuine desire to put these things behind us through honesty and opennes and transparency. Maybe a few things he has to apologize for. Maybe a few things he would admit should have been handled differently. Maybe some things were misunderstandings. Maybe some things just need to be explained. And maybe a few things need to CHANGE with how affairs are handled in the church that he could tell us about. He could also describe in 2 or 3 minutes what the bylaw changes were, and why they were handled as they were. AND he could say: and if any of you have any questions, even anonymously if you email them to me, I will be sure to respond if you have other questions. This wouldn't fix everything, but this would be a launching pad from which he could begin to display real servant leadership It would disarm this blog immediately
Does he have it in him? I don't know, but that's my humanly assessment that he does not. For him to do it he will have to decide it on his own and not listen to others near him; I think God could do something in his heart and he could decide to heal wounds he has caused through honest communication with his church, instead of the course he is on now which is to just let the wounds fester and scar over through the passage of time.
With all that I've said about Mac, I still believe him to be decent man - but he has allowed other priorities to capture his attention and he is off track. I believe there are people close to him that are giving him bad advice, possibly shielding him from information he needs to know.
But he CAN get on track if he humbles himself and truly shows that he wants to be a servant leader. Being a servant leader is not just serving tea to the ladies with an apron one time a year and then bragging about it in a book. Its not wearing an apron when the deacons come over for the annual deacons party at his house. Its displayed every single week with how he deals with his congregation from the pulpit, what he says about us outside the church, what he says to us during announcements, how he shares information about what he is doing and we don't have to find out about things from other sources.
I hope he has it in him.
My guess is he is buying time, hoping this goes away. Mac and the trustees probably don't want the blogger and the Brunson antagonists to be unmasked as the anon said...as that will only ratchet this up to a whole new level that no one will want. It is sad to see FBC Jax members posting here threatening to find out who I am so they can expose me, and call me a coward and all of these things. So Mac is at this point wanting to minimize the spread of this information, and hopes that the few "whiners" will leave, and he can continue on. But we won't, and more people will read this information, some will be upset, others will call for the WD's head for slander and lies. But its Mac himself who has the power here to shut the blog down and lead us all.
We shall see.
Hi Jennifer's Dad - go ahead and do the detective work and find out who I am. That won't make any difference at all. It will only serve to ratchet this up to a whole new level. And it won't change the truth (or the falseness) of what I've said here about Mac Brunson. So find out who I am, and post it on the Internet...but when you do find out though, do know that HOW you found out is also something that can be determined, and there can be consequences for that as well.
You and Jennifer obviously haven't read this blog much, because if you did, you'd see that what she said that I didn't post, much of that has been said over and over again by people who believe as you believe about this blog.
But I show your post here sir just to show the many thousands around the country that are watching at what is happening at our church: how people want to attack the person pointing out the abuses of Mac Brunson, rather than actually dealing with the abuses themselves or at least defending Mac against the abuses. So while you sir believe you are really letting me have it, putting me in my place, showing me to be a coward...instead you're showing people all over the country who are reading your post how far our church has fallen. Lord help us.
Here is an excerpt from a post from someone who I didn't let their whole post through since it was quite off topic.
This person's post I think demonstrates the trouble with teaching a legalistic tithe doctrine.
Follow the logic here:
Now, again, all pastors have said to tithe 10%. Dr. Vines has said to start at it. I believe you misinterpret him when you believe that it is only a good place to start. I invite you to email him to get his standings. Tithing starts at 10%. If you disagree, fine. Rob God. I will get my blessings. You will not.
Now you state that some people cannot give ten percent. I find this interesting. Perhaps this is where your misinterpretation of the pastor's sermon also comes in. We are not all stupid, but most americans are not wise. That is why, if you missed this part, most americans have an average credit card debt of $8000. He did not say that we were too stupid with our money, so thank God we do not get raises. But I will.
Now perhaps here comes in your problem with the tithe. One usually does not have an issue with something he can fulfill. So either you are too unwise with your money and are in extreme debt, or you are too greedy to give it to God. Either way, you are in sin and either way, God will get it.
Now, you keep mentioning the gift the pastor recieved. I must claim ignorance on this issue. However, let me first ask you a question before you start to gloat. Do you tithe on every birthday gift, every income tax return, every monetary gift you receive? Because if you don't, then you are unfit to accuse him of this. He tithes more than his ten percent, and I would wager it is including all gifts he recieves. To say he has to give all he gets to the church, but then for you to deny the church a tenth of your salary and all extra you receive,is nothing short of hypocrisy.
Furthermore, again you have a double standard in saying your pastor robbed God, but you aren't by not tithing. If it isn't robbing God, then it doesn't matter who does it, right?
Wow. That wouldn't be so scary if it didn't come from someone who grew up at FBC Jax - under Lindsay and Vines, and now who's drinking the Brunson tithe Kool Aid.
This poster has learned well from Mac on tithing. To this blogger its a legalistic matter, you are measured according to the OT 10%, not based on the NT standard of giving. If I am in poverty, have a disabled child with special needs and I'm borrowing money every month to pay for his care and am struggling to just stay even and can't pay my basic bills, NO BLESSINGS FOR ME. IN FACT, I'M IN SIN! But Mac, he is to be heralded for his greatness because he earns $500k per year from tithes and offerings of God's people and gets land gifts of $300k, then gives a whopping 15%. And brother, if you don't give that 10%, God's gonna get it from you. And notice: you don't tithe, no blessings for you, I DO tithe, therefore I will be blessed and you will not. No raises for you, but raises for me. Its a matter of pride perhaps - if you don't tithe you're a bad financial manager, and God's gonna get you. Yep, thank you poster for clarifying Mac's position, and why his sermons are dangerous when he speaks so carelessly. People like this poster listen, and then they believe it. Notice also according to this poster: if you don't tithe even on your birthday gifts, then you must shut your mouth when it comes to pointing out abuses of the pastor.
And the poster is so hung up on tithing that he can't see clearly what the issue on the gift is. Its not whether Brunson tithed on the gift, or whether he should give it to the church. Its an ethical matter of a conflict of interest when the head of a large non-profit organization accepts a gift from one of the organization's donors. This is one of the practices that Senator Grassley is investigating the televangelists for.
That whole post just stinks of legalism. This is likely a young person who has been brought up through our church, and that is what they have to say on the tithe. Lord help us.
I must have missed it, what have you learned about the PURPOSE DRIVEN movement? The opposition to this blog has repeatedly failed to address this subject. You are a man of God who desires that we do the right thing at FBCJ or you would not be posting here. We have an equal desire. What do you think about the PURPOSE DRIVEN movement? I respect your input.
To those tithers who think they are more spiritual than people who don't tithe. You are vain and sinful according to Jesus. To those that believe that the tithe is an "investment" and that you will get a great "return" on your investment, you are giving for the wrong reason and God is not pleased. To those who cannot honestly read the scriptures and see that no where does it require or teach anything about people giving 10% of their cash wages to a local fellowship of believers, you are not living out your call to be a follower of Jesus.
Again, please cut and paste this link.
Pray about what you read (the article is just a collection of scripture, so it is all bible based.) and see if God will not open your eyes. You may be called to give half your income to the local congregation if the Spirit leads you, but at least we can stop with this judgmental nonsense about the tithe.
Please read it. And then read Malachi. It is only 4 chapters and can be read in just a few minutes. If you have a study Bible, read the notes and context. It was the priests, those collecting the food, that were robbing God by not bringing the whole tithe of the people into the storehouse. That is similar to the modern day preacher siphoning off hundreds of thousands, if not millions of "God's money" for themselves.
Please pray and read and trust God on these issues. Don't get mad at the WD, or be hurt that Vines and Lindsay used Malachi as a base to encourage you to be generous in your giving to God's work. You should be. Just be careful what you mistakenly believe about some of these scriptures and the legalism you try to place on others and the self false-pride you live with if you tithe.
To the anon that said Donny Mac ignores the blog and goes on, you may be right. He is living like a king over in Deerwood on the golf course, preaching 1 or 2 times a week (often stretching the morning sermon into the sunday night sermon to save preparing a second service) traveling the world with his family, driving luxury cars, and the money and gifts keep pouring in. Who knows, his supporters may even be more mobilized to give him even more since they feel he is being unfairly attacked on this blog? So, maybe he is grateful for the blog since it makes the church more about him, many will feel sorry for him despite his abuses (O.J. and Michael Jackson fans come to mind) and he can continue to paint himself as a victim. Life is very, very good for Team Brunson, make no mistake about it. So, maybe the blog is a good thing?
UNLESS...one thing and only one thing happens: People read it, their eyes and hearts are opened, and they....(drum roll please)...they stop giving the millions. That my friends, is the ONLY way Mac will ever be held accountable. So, I am with the WD. I am going to give "God's money" to God from now on. Not to the budget of the FBC of Jacksonville. To GOD!
Re. Anon June 27, 11:39 p.m.
I didn't think you would have the guts or conviction to answer my question.
If you have not been given the gift to pastor, then you know nothing about the everything you claim to know.
If you have been gifted to pastor, then take a church and lead people the way you think they ought to be led.
Otherwise, if Dr. Brunson is in error, let God deal with him. Furthermore, God doesn't need your help, or the help of this blog which, by the way, isn't helping.
I think there are things we can learn from the Purpose Driven movement. I have taught their book and have gotten a lot of good from it. There are some things they have taken to an extreme that I think might be dangerous.
I think any pastor is personally responsible for preaching and teaching the whole counsel of God and being true to the Word of God. Our methods may (and probably should) change, but the message should always be the same. People still need to be saved--not just entertained, cultivated, or confronted.
I think the wisest thing to do is read the book for yourself and then discern what you think will work for you and then ignore the rest. I have met Bill Hybels personally and do not consider him to be a heretic.
Hey June 28, 2008 10:27 AM - relax pal. None of us claim we are called to preach. And I don't need to be a called preacher to know right from wrong. Research Bob Gray, Bob Reccord, Frank Harber, Jerry Sutton, Mac Brunson, Steve Gaines, Darrel Gilyard, Catholic priests, and on and on and you will quickly see that letting "God deal with it" doesn't quite cut it. He relies on his men here on earth to do his work doesn't he?
Did I need to be a called preacher to know Bob Gray should not have penetrated those little girls during baptisms? Or that Gilyard should not be text messaging sexually explicit messages to teenage girls in his congregation, or that Mac Brunson should not be accepting $307K from a member of the church just 3 weeks after he arrived, or that by-laws should be changed without explanation or discussion, or that wife and son can be given salary benefits with no real job duties or work hours? Come on. Wake up!
By the way, until you are called to Blog about Mac Brunson, don't come on here and critize us. Because according to your logic, you can't possibly know what your talking about until then.
Wow. Just be sure to give your money on Sunday okay? Thanks.
Since we are accountable to God for our own personal actions, witness or not, tithe or not, "to blog or not to blog" and so on, then that accountability includes if we know something and do nothing or if we know nothing and are doing something.
James 1:22, 23
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
If any of what is going on is true, then we need to counteract these evils with what is good and Godly, not returning evil for evil.
If in Mac’s case some of his actions as one anon stated are the “appearance of evil” then we all must rethink what we are saying and writing. For example, while with the best intent, if I am making comments or an accusation (fact or fiction) about someone that another person finds to be critical, ugly or unChrist-like. In that sense, that person sees me as “Evil”. Many have called WD evil. It is the appearance that we are making.
Time spent sharing Christ with lost friends and neighbors instead of wringing our hand and saying "someone has to do something about this". Praying for our Sunday school teacher, lay leaders and staff, that the Holy Spirit will have freedom in their lives to bring Honor and Glory to the Father.
Isn’t this like seeing a leak in a dam, watching our city flooding and discussing how this could have happened and who is at fault instead of rescuing those in danger of drowning, repairing the damaged dam and restoring the town? Think positive. What can I do to make a difference in a positive way in my home, my class, my church, my neighborhood?
Telling everyone that the dam is leaking is important, but actually doing something to reverse or repair the damage is vital.
just so you guys know, this guys a liar. my friend emailed him, and he took her email and cut and pasted it so that it would say what he wanted it to. what a shame that he is that low.
watchdog, why you think you can call yourself that blows my mind. you are doing nothing but ruining the name of a great church. your an inconsiderate idiot. if you have such a problem with mac then get out. no one wants such a sour unkind person to be around. you are making christians look bad if you even are one. we are supposed to be united and sharing the word and instead you seem to think that you are good enough to correct what the preacher says. ha! i dont know who you think you are, but your really not that important to think you can do that. and on top of that you keep who you are hiden, kind of a coward move if you ask me, if your gona say junk then stand behind it, otherwise your just hiding like a scared little person. I really think you need to check who you are. A christian wouldnt have such an unkind sour view of a church that preaches the word. Ive read some of your things and may I ask who made you have any right to say where the money goes? Sorry no one asked your opinion. Im going to place a bet that people smarter than you are taking care of it.I really just think that you have some issues that you need to address. And another thing! How dare you on some other rant and rave that you have call our church " white and rich" implying thats all we are. You are just showing your ignorance right there, and pushing away people that need Jesus.
There is a huge difference between what Gray and Gilyard did and what you perceive that Mac Brunson did. Whether you agree with your pastor or not, please don't stoop to this level.
Since this issue about being Purpose Driven continues to come up and I am not an expert, I have only had time to read excerpts, some from postings on this site but couldn’t come to any conclusion. So I contacted several Pastors over the past week who each, independently agree with the statements that RM has made. Some saying that it is the message that is vital and the methods are somewhat flexible if the message is delivered properly. Or what ever it takes to reach them with the message as long as the Word of God isn’t compromised, and even "it depends on how much of it (PD) you hang your hat on, swallowed hook. line and sinker, it might damage a presently fruitful church.
But basically, men of God, Pastors, I know and trust aren’t as all fired up and “anti the PD stuff as some of ya’ll are. One said it is basically a non-issue. You would have a hard time convincing me that along with RM all of these men have “drank any Kool-aid”…They seem to me to be saying that some are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Let’s move on and deal with the more important issues at hand.
Thank you for your reply about THE PURPOSE DRIVEN movement. You did what many pastors around the country did. They taught their people the good points about the Purpose Driven Life book. I too read the book, actualy I only read part of the book. As I read through the book I began to notice some problems. (this was a careful study) First the number of different bibles that were being used. Second the number of times that Rick Warren twisted the scripture to justify his points. Then there were the references to people who had questionable background. By then RW lost all credibility.
Further study about the movement produced the dangerous parts of the movement.
Many good men that I know have said that they like Warren and Hybels. I don't doubt that they are likeable!
Then came the study of RW AND BH and the men that they have in their pulpit and with whom they associate. Then it became problematic.
RM, other than the good points what have you found that troubled you in the movement?
Again I thank you for your truthful reply. I respect the difficulty that you may have in answering this question.
You're as angry as that poster is A.M., and it comes through in your writing. And you lied about me lying. You've given the impression that I changed her words to say something she didn't say. That is a lie, and makes YOU a liar. And she didn't email me, she posted here for viewing on this blog...I chose not to put here irrelvant part, but put the relevant part word for word. YOU sir/maam are the liar as you lied twice about me. That's ok, I understand. Religious zealots often have trouble in this area of distorting facts, not able to see the truth, and levying personal attacks on people who say things that might cause them to question their religious leaders. So I pity you actually.
I put her excerpt from her POST (not an email), just put it word for word to show an example of extreme legalism and pride and arrogance and nastiness when it comes to a legalistic view of tithing. Sorry that it offends you to put her words here, but its her words that are offensive not mine.
But SBC, all of you reading this blog, this is how the Christians are FBC Jax apparently have become under Mac Brunson - at least the zealots who refuse to see that their pastor is abusing our church, who say people like me should have no say about money, that "smarter" people are handling it. Don't agree with them, then dare to point out the abuses of the pastor, and its ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK...and call them lost, Satanic, in danger of heart attacks, etc.
You question my salvation? Look at yourself buddy. And lay off the Kool Aid for a week.
Hey WD - people sure do get angry when you start talking about not giving the money, or when you start asking for accountability as to where the funds go.
Why would any of these morons even read an anonymous blog. And if they did, why would they even do more than shake their heads or laugh at it?
Some really get upset and show an ugly side. You keep up the good work WD. Thank you!
My husband and I support Marketplace Ministries a chaplain service to business. They go to people's workplaces and minister to the people. They also are accountable financially to their donors. Does any baptist church in the convention open their accounting to financial audits? Why not? There is alot of temptation that could be eliminated if books were open to all donors. Just a thought.
Watchdog said to Jennifer:
"Very un-Christian of you to call me a coward. You don't know me. I'm not a coward. But you MUST think that I am, and that I'm doing something wrong - perhaps because to consider the things I've written would mean that you perhaps have been lied to and duped by your pastor and you're not willing right now to consider that as a possibility. So you instead must call me a coward. Too bad. Open your eyes."
I am not a member of FBC nor do I have any interest in or desire to defend Mac Brunson. But I would be less than honest if I did not tell you that it is anonymous blogs like this that are doing nothing but feeding into this "aggressive CEO pastor-type" trend that is occurring at so many large and megachurches around the country. It is your lack of courage by concealing your own identity that is allowing these pastors to "play the victim" and gain sympathy with the majority of the members who are generally oblivious to what is going on. You may be bringing light to some important problems, but your efforts and effectiveness stop there.
Let me ask you this, have you or any of the "Concerned FBC Jax Members" attempted in any way to follow the commands of Christ in Matthew 18:15-17 regarding Mac Brunson? Do you have any evidence of this that you are willing to share publicly?
If you have followed Matthew 18 and it did not lead to repentance on Mac's part, then what are you told to do in verse 17? "Let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." In other words, if the church won't dismiss Mac Brunson from fellowship, then you must dismiss FBC Jax and Mac Brunson from fellowship with you.
Does the prospect of leaving FBC Jax horrify you? Are you so devoted to the FBC of Lindsay and Vines that you feel like leaving would be an insult to their memory? If so, who then are you worshipping? Or maybe the idea of leaving FBC would be like "giving in" to Mac Brunson and admitting defeat? If so, don't you think that's just a LITTLE bit prideful on your part?
If you have NOT followed Matthew 18 discipline with Mac Brunson, then what are you waiting for? What are you afraid of? Why do you keep casting stones from the relative comfort and safety of anonymity?
Isaiah 2:22 says, "Stop regarding man, in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?"
Watchdog, I'm not trying to make idle accusations here. I am exhorting you under the authority of scripture and Christian brotherhood to examine your heart. Whom do you fear most? MEN such as Mac Brunson, or the wrath of ALMIGHTY GOD for disregarding a clear command of scripture in favor of worldy methods (i.e. blogging)?
I regret having to bring these things up here. Discussing this over a cup of coffee or among a group of Godly brethren would be a much more appropriate atmosphere (and more Biblical). However, this is the forum that YOU have chosen.
In Christ's love,
Lucas - those are all good questions. You have plenty of questions for me, and I do respect the spirit in which you ask them.
However, I will not answer most of your questions directly, but will offer the following:
- firstly, there are Christians at FBC Jax who HAVE gone to the church leadership with concerns. At least one has been ostracized and removed from their positions at the church and treated unkindly. So yes, some of the posters here have gone directly to Mac Brunson and other leaders with concerns.
- secondly, I reject your notion that its "anonymous blogs like this" that actually help create the CEO pastor problems because they become "victims". The problem really, REALLY has nothing to do with blogs, but it has to do with negligent lay leaders who allow the pastors to get away with their antics - and the congregations who turn a blind eye and keep giving the money to feed their greed and egos. Its a leadership problem, not a blog problem.
- so many questions you have for me, my oh my. Good questions, but irrelevant to this blog. This blog is about Donald M. Brunson's abuses. I think that perhaps a list of questions might be directed toward Mac Brunson - but so many want to direct questions to me. I'm just a blogger. Not spending God's money. Not asking for people to tithe to my church. Not taking an enormous salary from the offerings. Don't have family on staff. Not claiming to be "God's Man". I didn't take a $300k gift from one of our church donors and rob God, then stand and claim others are robbing God. So stop the questions of me, and please at THIS blog please direct your questions to Mac. I owe you or the readers of this blog no answers, but Mac owes plenty of answers to the church at large over what he has done to our church.
rm-June 25, 2008 3:25pm
"I can assure you that there will be no answers on this issue forthcoming from the pastor, deacons, or trustees. And as much as I know you hate to hear it--they will NEVER respond to anonymous emails or anonymous blogs. I don't know of any pastor worth his salt who would."
ARROGANCE!!! Pure and simple! The last time I heard that was regarding Trinity/Bob Gray/Tom Messer. When Arrogance and Pride takes over the Lord always has a way of bringing out the truth and exposing publically that which is kept in secret.
On another note...
BTW, what is a contemporary family? Do they not live and breathe/have much of the same needs and problems as a traditional family? Do they not need salvation/eternal life in the same way as a traditional family?
ALL PEOPLE NEED THE LORD...contemporary or traditional.
The PD movement is so dangerous because it is about deceit and retraining the thinking of christians that everyone is good and there is more than one way to heaven. You know what I mean..tickle the ears, give the people what they want to hear, make them feel good (not see themselves as a sinner)so they will come back.
The Lord Jesus had thousands come to hear him but only a remnant that chose to believe and follow Him. He didn't change the message to bring the 'CONTEMPORARY' crowd back. I'm sure that in Jesus' Day there were also some who thought they were the 'Contemporary' crowd and needed that extra special touch. They made their choice...you don't come to Jesus on your terms but on His terms. That will NEVER CHANGE. The Gospel is JESUS CHRIST/THE CROSS/DEATH/BURIAL/
RESURRECTION...when you take that out you no longer have the GOSPEL. Jesus Christ is "THE ONLY WAY TO ETERNAL LIFE" and Jesus Christ is the only ONE WHO CAN CHANGE LIVES permanently. Entertainment and music to draw the 'contemporary' crowd will bring them in for a short while but the root will die when they lose interest in the 'contemporary' fiasco. What then? Have you lost them forever because they are so disillusioned with the show? You had the opportunity to give them the TRUTH but failed miserably if it had no impact on their eternal destination. After all, that is what it is all about and the real purpose God gave up His ONLY Son, Jesus Christ, who voluntarily chose to do the Father's Will and suffered and died on the cross for the 'contemporary' family as well as the 'traditional family'.
Will you look at that...we are back where we started...JESUS CHRIST and ONLY ONE WAY!
Thank you for your candid and quick response. I don't disagree that the problems you talk about are urgent and very very real. While I don't have a "dog in this fight", I am sympathetic to your situation. My only desire is to urge you, in the same sense that Paul "urged" the Roman believers in Romans 12:1, to examine yourself constantly and thoroughly. If you are condident that the process outlined in Matthew 18 has been followed and all other options have been exhausted, then Christ's instructions to you are clear. He did not tell you to send your tithes somewhere else. He did not tell you to start a blog and air your concerns in front of the general public. He told you to dismiss that person (Mac Brunson) from your fellowship. And if the church is not willing or able to dismiss him corporately, then you are to dismiss that local church from your fellowship.
Does this mean you and others may be persecuted, ostrasized or condemned for your actions? May it be so! God never told us to avoid suffering, but rather to embrace suffering as a gift of God. Romans 5:3 tells us to "rejoice in suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance." Also, we are to "share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus." (2 Tim 2:3). Our ultimate example of suffering is our Savior, "who for the joy that was set before him, endured the Cross, despising the shame". There is great joy for those who endure shame and persecution in the name of our Savior and for the truth of His Word. Our sufferings in this life at their WORST are a mere shadow of what Christ endured when our sins nailed him to the cross.
You don't need to me to extoll the concerns over what is going on at FBC Jax. You and other posters here have done more than enough of that. As valid as those concerns may be, I don't believe God sent me here to do that.
I suppose the purpose of my commenting here is just as much encouragement as it is exhortation. I love you my brother, whoever you may be. And not just you, but I love and embrace all of my brothers and sisters at FBC Jax. I am praying for you. And you know what? I am praying for Mac Brunson too. I commanded in scripture to forgive my brothers 7 times 70 and to pray for them without ceasing. It is because I have been forgiven so much in my life that I have no right to withhold my forgiveness from others.
May God in His providence allow us to meet someday. But if not, grace and mercy and peace to you from God our Father and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To be honest, I don't give the PD movement a second thought these days. Maybe its a done deal in Texas and we don't worry about it any longer. As a pastor, I am constantly evaluating any and all of our ministries and activities--if they aren't presenting Jesus then we dump them and start over. I have no problem with anything that's new and inovative but it has to be true to Jesus and our ministry to the world.
As far as the number of Bibles used and the versions, I personally use as New American Standard Bible since that was our basic text in seminary. I have no problems with versions that are true to the text--and I think there are a few good ones in addition to the King James. Hopefully we have moved beyond thinking that the King James is the only inspired version of the Bible. I don't ask people to raise their Bibles in the service but I do expect them to have one with them since that is what we are preaching and studying.
I too have a problem with some of the men that are in the pulpits of these churches. That's why I don't buy their programs lock, stock, and barrel.
I think the situation at FBC, Jax goes way beyond that. As always you are going to have people rebel against new methods (we did that when we were young) but we can work beyond that. Remember the uproar when we put the words to hymns on a large screen? I do admit that I have a huge problem with a pastor making over $150,000 and living in a house over $200,000. But then that's my personal preference and what they do is up to them and God.
Dr. Watchdog please bear with my folly.......For those of you who think that just because a man is a Pastor that God has called him. Please explain what JESUS meant when He warned of WOLVES in SHEEP clothing in Matt.7:15. Who are the false Christ and false prophets JESUS' mentioned in Matt.24:5,11,24? The Apostle Paul urged the Ephesus Elders night and day for three years about GREVIOUS WOLVES and men teaching PERVERSE(distorted) things infiltrating there Church; Who were these interlopers?[Acts 20:28-31].The Corinthian Christians were alerted to men who were masquerading as MINISTERS of rigtheous when in fact they were proxies of Satan who was presenting himself as an ANGEL of LIGHT.Who are they?[2Cor.11:3,13-15].Paul warned the Christians in Galatia of dangerous men who were distorting the Gospel,and condemned those false teachers[Gal:7-9].God gave TRUE PREACHERS to counter the false so that the Ephesus believers would not be "tossed to and fro,with every wind of doctrine,by the SLEIGHT of men,and cunning craftiness,whereby they lie in wait to deceive"[Eph.4:14]. The Colossians were in danger of being lead away "through philosophy and vain deceit(PD),after the traditions of MEN,and not after CHRIST[Col.2:8].The Holy Spirit discloses in Scripture of "doctrines of demons" being perpetrated by hypocritical liars(Preachers)who have no conscience[1Tim.4:1] Timothy was charged to preach the Word because a time was coming when people would not LISTEN TO SOUND DOCTRINE,but chose teachers who can reach the contemporary people and their families[2Tim.4:14]. Titus was informed to deal with "many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers(PREACHERS);who mouths must be stopped,who subvert whole houses,teaching things which they ought not,FOR FILTHY LUCRE'S SAKE[Titus 1:10-11].Peter gets in on the action by warning the early Christians and those today of FALSE TEACHERS INFILTRATING the Church and teaching "FEIGNED"(plastos;plastics)words to make merchandise(gain) of the people[2Pet.2:1-3].Finally people the servant Jude counciled the believers to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints". Why this warning "For there are certain men(false teachers)CREPT IN UNAWARES"[Jude 4]. Lets be clear,I'm not calling Dr Brunson a false teacher,But to put to rest this ignorance that just because a man is a pastor or preacher that it was God who called him. Many are called by Satan,money,power,prestige,or other selfish reasons. This also believe that I have only given you a small sampling of what the Bible warns about deceptive men posing as Prophets,Apostles,Pastors,Teachers,and Evangelist,the Bible is replete with these references.We are commanded to be Berean Christian and "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,whether those things be so".[Acts 17:11]. Concerning Purpose Driven: Dave Hunt,Dr.John MacAuthur,Dr.R.C.Sproul,Dr.Steve Lawson,Dr.Mark Devers,and other great preachers and theologians unequivocally CONDEMN IT AS DANGEROUS!!!!!!!.Finally as a Pastor myself I must continually be on guard to protect the people of God over which HE has made me the overseer; To feed the flock which HE has purchase with HIS ON BLOOD. Also Dr.Watchdog I believe your intentions and concerns appear to be geniune.In my ministry I make every effort to be transparent in all our business,and my door is always open to any member without reservation or intimidations.
Okay, we know Brunson took the $307,000 valued property. His wife drives a Jag, He wears expensive suits and is given watches by members so he does not have to buy them himself. His wife is on staff. His son is on staff. His trips to the Holy Land and possibly other places are probably paid by the travelers or Purpose travel. He wrote a book and apparently did not even use his own advise. So... Now.. move on-
The real issues now are:
-Less than 100 kids went on the Summer trip when once over 250 went.
-The loft is dark on Wednesdays.
-The hymnal is never used any more.
-The staff is pushing "group" Sunday School in place of God's Word.
-Summer music was cancelled for the summer!
-The church programs are totally upside down.
- Kids are not saying their memory verses.
-Sun night is now Wed. night... Wed night is now Sunday-
-The choir is dismissed so much its looking sparse
-While once on the finest and best musicians and preachers filled the FBC pulpit area.. now...anyone seems to fill in.
-There are now at least 25 paid staff: Steve Clifton, Kevin King, Marcus Allen Jr. and Sr, Shelly Taylor, Shelly Norman, Dan Elkins, Jonathan Wlch, David Champagne, Ryan Vickery, Marilyn Kirkpatrick, Fran Hawk(PT I think), Steve M. and Paul M, Edson D., Dr. Whitmire, Nancy Brant, Debra Baily?, Louise Cantrell?, George Kemp(plus all of his Intl trips), Jim Smyrl, Mac, Debbie, Trey...How can the church financially pay all of these staff members?
- Move on from the house that MB got..... We know that now.. Move on and lets move to solve other pressing issues! Move On-
Sorry, won't move on. The blog exists so that others at our church will know the truth about Mac Brunson.
But you bring up some good points!
Quote from a FBC Jax Facebook site where the "evil amongst us" is being discussed:
"First Baptist, I am not starting this to cause division, or to cause anger or upstart. I am simply trying to reveal the underhandedness of some in our church and call you all to prayer. There is an evil in our midst trying to destroy the good. Please pray for our pastor, and for this coward to be exposed."
Yep, pray for Mac Brunson, the poor pastor being unfairly attacked. And let's go after that dastardly "evil in our midst" blogger.
How sad - people in our church are following men and not Jesus.
Shame on you.
That same mindset of: the person who attempts to shed light on the misdeeds of a pastor is a person who wants to destroy the church, is evil and must be exposed (for what reason should they be exposed? Why to be humilated and persecuted and thrown out of the church of course!), and instead of examining the deeds of the pastor carefully, prayer FOR the pastor against the "attack" is asked for...and pray that the evil doer will be punished.
This is the same, and I mean the very exact same mindset running through Trinity that allowed Bob Gray to do what he did.
I would say pray for the people of FBC Jax that their eyes would be opened to the phony they have in their midst and it isn't a blogger...forget about praying to expose the coward blogger, pray for the people who have been blinded.
There is now enough facts to prove that Rick Warren is in error if not a false teachers.
Here is a brief list of men with whom Rick Warren associates and or references in his book The Purpose Driven Life.
St John of the Cross
Most if not all of these men believe in some form of Mysticism.
Rick Warren said "God is in everything". That is Pantheism. I've read that "This is a flat out lie from SATAN"
Given all the above, ANYTHING THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF RICK WARREN IS SUSPECT.
Those praying for the bloggers to be exposed better be careful what they pray for. Things will get considerably worse and much more public if this blog moves from a "harmless bunch of anonymous cowards" to real live leaders in our church and community with names and faces. It is in Team Brunson's best interest that these bloggers not be "exposed."
If and when the bloggers decide to take this to the next level, don't worry, you will all know who they are when you see them on the news and read about them in the paper. But for now, they choose restraint and prayer and patience and anonymous blogging.
NO its in everyone's best interest that you ARE exposed. When you draw a line thru the pastors face and say you want freedom from mac brunson day...The only thing I thought when I saw that was that dude you are on dangerous ground. Please reconsider what you are doing for your own sake, some of your stuff is really coming across as threatening.
I am leaving the church next Sunday to go find a new one...and praying about it. This blog has really made my mind uneasy about Baptists in general, and that just won't work for me, cause it gets in the way of my relationship to God. The Baptist church is absolutely FULL of people like you all, and I just can't deal with it and keep a good relationship to God. I just ask you, blogger, if you have a problem with this church to PLEASE for your sake find another church before something bad befalls you. LOOK AT THIS POST...you have drawn a LINE THRU THE FACE OF THE PASTOR....thats THREATENING, can't you see it? I wish so much I had never stumbled across this blog. I don't like knowing about people like you and all the rich people of First Baptist. It has made me realize I never belonged there in the first place. And everybody who is supporting this blogger the watchdog, you all PLEASE think about what you are doing.
Those praying for the bloggers to be exposed better be careful what they pray for. Things will get considerably worse and much more public if this blog moves from a "harmless bunch of anonymous cowards" to real live leaders in our church and community with names and faces. It is in Team Brunson's best interest that these bloggers not be "exposed."
If and when the bloggers decide to take this to the next level, don't worry, you will all know who they are when you see them on the news and read about them in the paper. But for now, they choose restraint and prayer and patience and anonymous blogging.
Now that's funny...
CHANGE: (My opinion) I would certainly like to see change!!! I would like to see the preachers of today get back to GOD'S business. Instead of their own personal agenda's (money, books of instructions they don't live by themselves, travel, personal wealth and most of all EGOS! Todays preachers (not all, but most in the SBC) are ego ridden and self serving. When one needs a marketing firm to HELP them with their BRAND. A marketing firm (brand) will help them make money, it won't help them be more Godly or a better preacher!! That persons ministry(?) is in trouble from a spiritual point. This attitude of trying to update the Gospel, give it a new look, is insulting to the Lord. Jesus doesn't need man's help!! HE and HE alone died on the Cross for man. Do you not see why preachers have no power today? People arn't getting saved today because the preachers have no power in their ministry! Making money does not mean your ministry is blessed of God. That is why they turn to marketing firms, the Purpose Driven lie, and any new angle they can get to help them out.Churches run like businesses, with CEO'S in charge. IF(?) these preachers (many, not all) were ever called, they sold out a long time ago. I saw a remark on the blog., saying "I hope we are all past believing the KJV, is the only perfect word of God." I have a question. If people were getting saved for years upon years with the KJV, why would anyone want to change it? It doesn't look like the new translations are doing such a hot job, does it? Less people getting saved than ever. I heard someone say once, "If you mess with the Bible then God will mess with your mind." Amen!! These preachers (not all) have "messed" with the word!! When you have a bible that makes thousands of CHANGES, most of them in doctrine, the diety of Christ, take out countless references to the Blood and the Cross, what do you think? What was wrong with the KJV? Had to make it more relevant, more up to date for todays "contemporary" people. Always trying to help God out, trying to help HIM get it right. This is why Jesus went to the Cross in the first place, because man is lost and can not save himself. Why does man think he can help God by changing His word.
Who does it benefit to change God's word, take Jesus, the Blood
and the Cross out, change doctrines, generally make the Word weak who do you think would like that? You got it!!!! I would not want that on my conscience. Plus, the KJV is not copyrighted, All the other translations are. Money, Money, also if version after version has to make a certain number of "changes in their version, in
order not to plagiarize another version, then each version gets further and further from GOD'S
WORD!!!! The preachers may go into seminaries with an honest heart
and calling, but most of them come
out programmed to believe what they are taught.,(modern up to date methods, more relevance, any version will do ). The seminaries are corrupt from within, and the preachers are useless, that's why they have NO POWER. That's why they search for "something" to help them and unfortunately it's "contemporary, gimmicks, the P.D. lie, more RELEVANCE in the Gospel", all because they are doing it in the flesh. Preachers get back to your calling, If you ever truly had one, and humble yourselves before God, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 TIMOTHY: 2:15. That would be RIGHTLY dividing!! That is the WORD of truth not history, psychology, world events, marketing trends, etc. YOU'VE LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE, AND YOU HAVE NO POWER!!!!!
Guess who hasn't changed, the devil. He is still doing the same things since the Garden of Eden, making you doubt your bible, you must keep changing God's word to "properly understand it today." You need a newer more contemporary approach, you need louder, more fast paced music, you need to change to seeker friendly services (no ties,sports clothes, relax, relax,get comfortable), most of all don"t talk about sin, someone might be offended. Talk about, psychology, why people do the things they do, but don't call it SIN. Yep, the devil never CHANGES!!!
Yes, as the Anon says, all of you "supporting" the watchdog please stop it. I would recommend stopping all payments immediately to my cause; all of you worshipping me and telling me I'm the "man of God", and defending me by saying "touch not God's watchdog"; all of you heaping praise on me and giving me gifts and houses, please STOP IMMEDIATELY, for my own good!
Anon 10:50 am - if you're looking for solid, bible expository preaching, you probably are better off going to another church. If you want to be at a church where there is openness about how money is spent, FBC Jax is not the one for you. If you're looking for a humble pastor that's interested in feeding his sheep and reaching this city with the gospel and not using your tithes to build their own personal brand while preaching history lessons, try another church - most any church. That you need to find a new church; that's not my fault, its Donald M. Brunson's fault.
How very, very sad. Heard about this site, but couldn't believe it and had to see it for myself. You definitely have way too much time on your hands. I will be praying for you, that God will open YOUR eyes to the real truth and take away your bitterness. You'd be surprised at how God is using Pastor to work in our lives. My heart hurts for you.
Praying for you,
I can appreciate the views and emotions that drive this blogsite but do not understand the complete lack of biblical knowledge and boldness. Since you do understand the bible so well, you must realize that you must practice Christian (biblical)correction. That means go to him personally (this is not that). Then if he does not repent go to him with someone else (this is not that either). Then if he does not repent go to the elders of the church with him (once again, this is not that). Then go before the church with him (you have guessed it by now, this is not that).
If the occurences you have listed have really happened then it would seem to me that you would have the courage of Paul to confront a brother. But it seems to me that you and most of the posters on this blog are spiritual Judas', writing anonymously is easy, what is hard is confronting with the power and love of the Lord.
Praying that you would come out of the closet.
You may be right about your preacher. However, your stance about tithing is wrong. You are supposed to share, and Paul asks churches to have the 'collection' so he wouldn't have to do it. And you can have a negative opinion about your pastor, but it is wrong to Blast on a blog or behind his back. It might be better if you would not publicly critize your pastor.
Still haven't given it up yet, huh? This is the first time since our previous blog debate (kinda) and in the first 7 seconds I noticed yet another mistake in your writing. I know you have plenty of fans and are stirring plenty of controversy. Congratulations in the amount of traffic you are receiving. I still receive no less than 15 hits to my blog just from your blog alone. So thanks for that too. If you're ever open to my offer, let me know. To jog the memory - I WILL FLY TO YOU ON MY DIME AND MEET WITH YOU JUST TO HEAR YOU INTELLIGENTLY DEFEND YOUR ANGER AND DIVISIVE SPIRIT WHICH CONTINUES TO DESTROY THAT WHICH GOD IS TRYING TO BUILD. I'M JUST A 29 YEAR OLD "punk kid" who should not be too intimidating. I'm not even Bible college trained. ha. Let me know. Happy blogging. We'll be in touch in another few months. And Merry Christmas to your and your family.
All I can say is that i am glad that I pastored smaller churches for the past 20years and have had to deal with only a few nuts like Dr. Watchdog. By the way why should any pastor have to 'adjust' to any congregation or members or mobs. Keep your tithe because that is what it is...yours and not Gods. Repent and be saved.
I found your website by accident - I am very sorry that I did. You, FBC Watchdog are not upholding the standards of Jesus, You are tearing apart His Bride with YOUR deceitfulness and hardness of heart.
It is people like you who are destroying the mission of Jesus in America. I know that you believe that you are in the right, sir, but I suggest that you
REPENT! REPENT OF YOUR BLINDNESS - YOUR HARDNESS OF HEART. REPENT FOR TEARING APART THAT WHICH GOD WILL USE FOR HIS GLORY.
It seems to me that you, sir, have believed the lie. You believe that you are upholding God's will but seem to have roots in that you don't agree with the direction of the church. I bet if we could see deep enough we would find that much of your problem has to do with cultural preference over biblical mandate.
Your means of doing that is by tearing down a man called by God. I recall David passing up the opportunity to kill Saul because, even though Saul was no longer the chosen King of Israel, David knew that Saul was God's anointed. David respected the king after the king no longer deserved respect (he threw a spear at David). How is your situation more special than David's?
Watchdog, I hope that you will repent of bringing a pharisaical spirit into the family of FBC Jax. Your church deserves better than that.
You're an idiot.
p.s. I'm not a first baptist member.
Glad I no longer go there.
Mac turned me off almost the day he got here.
This blog serves a valuable purpose in letting unknowing members, and the community, what is really going on there.
Homer and his father are probably turning over in their graves at this.
Keep up the good work.
seriously, does anyone else on here have a problem with this minister having influence over our city to use our tax dollars to find out who doesnt like him. well i do. how many unsolved homicides, burglaries, rapes, etc etc do we have in our city? and first baptist church thinks that highly of itself to put their petty self-glorified issues above the safety of the city and divert tax dollars away from real crimes, for a modern day witch hunt.
"Watchdog" Dude, I knew by the name of your website when I ran across it about a year ago that you were a bitter individual with nothing better to do than trash someone. I've been going there off and on since the early '70's. I loved Dr. Lindsay more than any other pastor. If you didn't agree with how they were doing things down there, you should have left or heck start your own church and run it your way. I don't blame them for throwing you out and outing you. You sound like someone who could try (or encourage someone) to do something crazy. This whole webpage screams that you're obsessed. Please do everyone a favor and get a real life. And, you're as much of a hypocrite and sinner as anyone else.
Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
Get over it, already...lol
What a bunch of garbage! and, what a bunch of cowards, beginning with the WatchDog himself. No one is obligating you to stay at FBC JAX. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to tithe. It is very clear that all you want to do is to continue to allow satan to use you to cause discension and discord within the church family. You criticize tithing because money is your god, so instead of tithing you want to "contribute". Too funny. You have nothing to criticize Mac about so you make stuff up. First, get all the facts. Even you acknowledge having minimal information. And then, if you don't like what you have learned, leave. Oops! too late. I, for one, am glad you are gone from FBC Jax. God alone will judge handle Mac Brunson, as he will all of us and I, for one, don't envy anyone with the responsiblity of pastoring a church. So, take care of the board in your own eye, and then maybe you can check out the splinter in someone else's eye. You have enough to keep you busy until Jesus comes back. Shame on you!
WD, I have read numerous post on your site, both in agreement and disagreement with your positions. I am not a member of FBCJAX nor do I have a personal relationship with your Pastor. Therefore I cannot comment directly on any of the issues you, your Pastor, or your church are facing. However, I felt I had to reply. With all sincerity of heart I read and felt nothing but sorrow. Sorrow for you, those who agree with you, those who disagree with you, your Pastor, FBCJAX, and the Kingdom of God. Please know this, and I write with no animosity towards any one, this situation will be a matter of prayer in my life.
Look Moses. If you don't like Pharaoh, nobody's forcing you to stick around Just go back to Sinai. Hey, Elijah. Lay off Ahab and Jezebel. They are your leaders and you're showing nothing but disrespect. You should be ashamed of yourself. Ezekiel, stop the dramatics. You must really think you're something lying on your side in protest for days on end. What kind of example do you think you're showing? Get with the program or get out. John the Baptist, you are a troublemaker. What business is it of yours to point out Herod's sin? We are all sinners! And his girlfriends? Now that's low. Don't you realize what the Romans are saying about God's people now? You are giving us all a bad name. Paul! How dare you stand up to Peter like that about not eating with the Gentiles! Don't you know he's one of the first apostles? Touch not the Lord's anointed! You are giving the church a black eye!...
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