Did you make the list? Are you considered part of the leadership worthy to know what Mac's vision is for the future, which is a $20 million capital fund raising program?
Below are two emails sent to 210 people that Mac considered to be the "leadership" of the church. Its an invite to a private, invitation-only meeting held on November 4th for Mac to unveil the capital fund raising program. From what I can tell on the emails, the meeting was held November 4th.
Much of what was shared with this group (at least the promotion videos) are now available on the FBC Jax website under the "Next Generation" banner.
Its interesting that Mac decided to invite these members, and not the congregation for the meeting to fully explain the capital program. And why not tell the congregation about this meeting? Tell us that a group of leaders got together and confirmed the program, and are fully behind it? Why the secrecy?
More than likely here's the strategy (think "marketing" and "promotions"): do an early unveiling of the program with a small group of the believers at our church...let them feel very privileged to be included to get the "inside scoop". At the meeting, garner their full support. Get a verbal commitment out of them if possible. Let the pastor mingle. Shake hands. Get their support. Once these people have expressed their support, YOU'VE GOT THEM. They will then be the "seed" of support in the church, a bottoms-up generation of support. In fact in the follow-up email to the attendees Mac confirms they were all asked at the meeting to "pray, promote, participate, and plan." He is asking them to influence their "peer groups" at the church. Do you ever wonder why the forcefulness of pastor in getting us into the small groups? Why did Mac express such frustration a few Sundays ago saying "you have GOT TO GET THIS" (speaking of small groups)? Why small groups NOW? Why is it so urgent?Part of his strategy, I believe, is to use the small groups during the coming campaign, led by many of the people at this meeting, to help people see how they need to get behind the capital program. Nothing wrong or sinister in that, just pointing out what the likely strategy is so that we can all be informed.
For those of you who are not "on the list" and didn't get the invite, below is the email invite and the follow-up letter. Notice in the follow-up letter that Mac asked people to "Pray, Promote, Participate, and Plan".
Here is the email invite:
"Last week you received an invitation to attend a meeting regarding the future of First Baptist. You, as a leader in our church, have been specifically invited to attend because your leadership in this matter is crucial. We will move forward in ministry to the degree that you as leaders will lead us forward. I want to take some time to explain the strategy that the staff and I believe God has given us the heart and mind to pursue. I also will share with you the "how" of this strategy. How will we minister to a new generation? How will we establish a ministry platform that will enable this church to enter into its 8th generation strong, vibrant and well prepared for the work God has given it to do? You love this church, and I believe you long for it to fulfill its ministry. Please decide now to be a part of those who will lead us into the future, for the glory of God.
In order to make getting together on a week night a little easier, we are providing you a meal (free of charge) between the hours of 5:30 and 6:30. At 6:30 we will gather in the Main Auditorium for a compact and informative presentation. This will be followed by a dessert fellowship afterward. Child care for children ages birth – 5th grade will be provided (please bring a snack supper for your child). The meeting portion will conclude by 7:30 so that you can get home at a reasonable hour.
If you plan to attend the dinner, please RSVP today to firstname.lastname@example.org (265-7346). If you cannot join us for dinner, please come to the meeting portion. I look forward to seeing you at this very important meeting.
Then, after the meeting, a follow up email to the special 210 invitees, or at least those who showed up:
Dear Church Member,
Thank you for your participation in the leadership meeting last Tuesday night. At the meeting I asked you to do four things in regards to the Next 8eneration Campaign: Pray, Promote, Participate, and Plan.
To help you do all four, I have enclosed a summary of the information that we presented. This will help you as you pray, as you talk about the strategy with your peer groups, as you participate in each step of the campaign and as you plan what you will do in leading the way.
These are exciting days for our church as we serve together and share the Good News of Jesus Christ in Jacksonville and beyond. I am confident that God will use us to reach this city and the world with the saving love of Christ. I am eager to take this journey with you. Thank you for being a faithful leader in this work!
Because of Him,
WD, what a contrast between what Pastor Lindsay Jr. did in the '90s and now. I am recollecting what I have heard from Calvin Carr's sermon on congregational authority and the $18M building program then. Clearly fbcjax has moved away from congregational authority to some form of "elder rule". I still disagree with them about the methods they used in enacting this "elder rule".
I sincerely wish the best for fbcjax. Given with the tough economic times and dissent present in the church, the leadership will have a rough road ahead.
I sincerely would encourage the leadership to treat the sheep with little bit more dignity and respect. From my reading, the sheep are fairly astute and can perceive things clearly. The ends do not justify the means.
If God wills, ALL will be accomplished. All that is in God's nature and will.
Also, not related to the above:
Last month was the 30th anniversary of Jonestown Massacre.
Guarddog do you remember?
History: Here is the way we have done business in the past.
1. The pastor would say CHURCH WE WANT TO BUILD A NEW BUILDING.
2. IT WILL COST US $17 million.
3. Here is why we need the new building.
4. To raise the money for the new building we will start a BUILDING FUND.
5. When we have enough money we will begin construction of the new building.
6. The pastor would say, we need to pray and ask the Lord what he would have each of us to do in regard to this.
I know there were other steps to this but this is basicly how we conducted our building programs. We even taught this proceedure to thousands of pastors in our PASTORS CONFERANCES OVER THE YEARS. Did it work? Yes! Will it still work? Absolutely!
NO SECRET MEETING OF THE SELECT FEW.
NO FREE MEAL TO PRIME THE PUMP.
NO SMALL GROUPS.
NO SMALL GROUPS BRAINWASHING
NO PAYING MAURILIO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS FOR THE PLAN.
IN SHORT, NO DEBT.
Mac would have us believe that WE CAN'T RAISE MONEY THE WAY WE USE TO.
As a matter of fact, MAC BELIEVES WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING THE WAY WE USE.
MAC IS STILL USING FAILED PLANS DERIVED FROM FAILED LEADERS.
This is straight out of Rick Warren's Purpose Driven. Get the staff on board then gather support from a select group. Then let the entire church in on the plan. This is the exact plan Warren lays out in his books on how to take a church PD!!! Peer groups!! No,it's a perfect MARKETING PLAN. And what is so special about this group of 210? Arn't there another 210 tithers and leaders or is this all there is out of 30,000? This 210, have the most money and the highest GIVING record. No matter what Mac does it starts and ends with MONEY.
Major corporations do this routinely, but a church? Corporations know that they need the support of operations, sales, and marketing in order to sell "the plan".
In my judgement, the entire church should be involved, not a small group, especially since ALL will be asked to pay and give sacrifically. And some don't want to say that a small group runs the church. How do you get by this obvious move? Just more of the same old strategy and marketing tools, should I say "cutting edge". These 210 are just the first level. Watch for the "program" to draw in the next group, that doesn't have as much money.
In all of Jesus' ministry he always took the 12 with him except on one ocassion when he took Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus is the perfect teacher and example of how to focus on ministry....keep all on the same footing. The ground at the cross is always level, no one is any more important than another. That's what both Dr Lindsay's preached, taught, and completed,and also LIVED. The church (body of believers, ALL believers in the church) belongs to all!!! I resent being TOLD what is going to happen by a group of people considered more worthy than others. What does the Bible say about giving place to the rich man.
Another thing, the 210 mostly had no part in the PLAN as it had already been put together. But, they can promote and participate. SELL IT!!! Regretably, those that wern't invited paid for the meal of those that attended through their giving, but had no input either in the plan. I wonder if any of those felt slighted? Maybe they were glad they weren't invited so they didn't have to show up. But let me tell you they know just how much you give every week. Maybe you were not invited because you are not intelligent like these others, you don't lead like they do, you are not part of the team, or you are not as spiritual. Hogwash. Same old elite group leading out. Where it goes is anyones guess. God help them. And no, I wasn't invited either. I'm not mad about it, just disappointed that things never change, just follow me syndrome. I am helping my child who lost their job, pay their bills this month.
That was the process - here's the plan, pray, give, and when you give we build. This is how you KNOW God is in it, and that its not MAN'S plans or MAN'S agenda.
And how right you are...we didn't need to consult with and pay a marketing firm for the plan and to produce videos to market the plan to the people. If this plan is a good plan, wouldn't the people give? Or do they need to now be compelled to give through slick marketing images, and peer pressure in small groups?
We are now officially in the "church marketing" age. Selling of promotion and advertising time and space in our church during Pastor's conference...and producing videos galore to sell the new capital fund raising program.
Thanks for posting those emails. It is good to know what is going on at our church. Those that don't read your blog every day, or at least once a week, are really missing out on what is going on at their church. Thanks brother Watchdog. Do not grow weary in doing good!
Can we all sing M I C K E Y MOUSE?
Step 5. I should have said, when we have ALL OF THE MONEY we will begin construction of the new building.
Mac's e-mail told the select few, "You love this church, and I believe you long for it to fulfill its ministry". So, is he saying the other members do not love the church? No, he knows how to slap them on the back, make them feel important, knowing all the while he is using them as guinea pigs to grease the congregation out of more money.
There is no limit to what this man and the marketing group will go to take the church down a road that was designed by marketing only. I do not believe God would approve of the tactics nor behaviour. They are schemers and belong in a circus hawking wares as clowns.
Free Meal to Attend Mac's Meeting: "we are providing you a meal (free of charge."
Did the free meal equate to 30 pieces of silver?
Did you notice some of the words and points raised in these two messages:
talk about the strategy
journey with you
Sounds like a mind control thesis. Can anyone with half a brain get this? Spoon fed. Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
He has already laid out the PLAN. It's going to be done, no doubt about it. And you are going to pay for it, one way or another. Just watch out for the bank loan especially during this recession.
You are correct. THE PLAN was already in wet cement before the meeting; just waiting for the drying process of approval by the select few.
Don't they realize they will answer for their actions. The members need to know how irresponsible and cow-towing their leaders really are. Smyrl, bring out the Pope's ring and let the select few kiss it before they next meet.
Talk about a cult, this group surely is! Mac isn't the Pope, the marketing groups are and Mac is the Bishop.
"Cutting Edge" is cutting the heart out of FBCJ, and it is bleeding.
There are many astute, professional and business oriented individuals among the select few, but none strong enough nor willing enough to stop the bleeding.
i'm on staff at a church that's doing a capital campaign with the assistance of a major, well-known company. This is exactly how they have instructed us to begin our campaign. I don't think it's sinister or secretive. I think it's a smart way to begin. Now whether or not FBCJ needs a new building or not, I can't answer. But don't impugn yourself with these kinds of whitewashes. Put your effort to real use.
This is exactly the same way that many churches (usually large ones) do it these days. Not that I am in agreement with it but its nothing new.
Personally, I think the Lord will give His vision to the pastor and the leadership of the church (be it elders or deacons) and then you go to the church for their confirmation. Once you are all in one accord, then share the vision totally and fully and ask the church to give--and then the Lord will provide. God never leads anyone somewhere that He won't provide the resources.
Sounds like your church has chosen a well tried manner to do this. Hopefully everyone won't nitpick it to death but get on board and be busy about reaching people in your city. Don't worry about someone getting a "free meal". That is kind of nitpicking to say the least.
Good luck to you and your church. You are going to need it.
So you too are part of the sheep-shearing marketing groups that are using the cutting edge to extract monies from congregants!
As a staff member, you should be much more inclined to ask why your staff cannot operate without outside intervention. That is what the WD is doing, not "white-washing" the issue as you called it. The white-washing is by your own hands.
"pray, promote, participate, and plan."
Didn't Mac get the sequence wrong? Should be pray, plan, participate, and if accepted by the congregation without undue influence, promote!
Anon December 2, 2008 11:10 AM - you miss the point. Sure, this is the way many churches go about capital campaigns. However, with most churches, the pastor and leadership can be trusted. Doing this with no trust, causes more distrust. And second, in most of those other churches, the WHOLE church KNOWS there will be a plan presented first to the deacons and then to some leaders. This is announced and the WHOLE church is asked to pray about it, knowing they will be involved in hearing the presentation as a congregation later. This was not done at FBC Jax. It all stays secret until the handpicked committees give their yes man stamp of approval, then the deacons, then these 210. This meeting was NEVER announced to the congregation. I believe your building consultants had you do otherwise am I right?
(If you are wondering why Mac can't be trusted, read the blog. Rec'd $307K land gift from donor 3 weeks after taking the job and never announced it or thanked anyone for it publicly, making it a secret arrangement; nepotism, by-law changes without explaining them or making them readily available, lying in the pulpit about Sheri Klouda, etc.)
If we didn't pay the A Group so much, look how much money we would have to put toward OUR needs. No wonder Mac brought the A Group with him, to help him fleece this church and try to make them like it. Reminds me of what happens when you drink the Kool Aid.
Did anyone notice the CEO of AFLAC gave up his "golden parachute"? Now thats a plan! Bet Mac wouldn't give up his special "parking spot",much less $1.00. And people wonder what's happened to the churches, and FBCJ in particular. If you people put up with this you are just plain weak!!!
Sure, quite a few churches are doing things this way nowadays.
But by definition, then, this is NOT cutting edge...its what everyone is doing and HAS been doing for decades. Church (or pastor) decided what needs to be built, and the church interviews church capital fund raising firms, selects a firm, and the firm tells the church what to do in order to manipulate, er I mean, motivate, the people to give. Tell them that your intent is not to go into debt, but that we are looking for committments over 3 years to give so that at the end of the 3 years we'll have it paid for!
Hear me: THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN DONE BY SBC CHURCHES FOR DECADES. Its nothing new or novel or "cutting edge". Its what our church decidedly did NOT do. Not that we were stupid and didn't know what others were doing, its just that we decided to do it in a "cutting edge" way: we would announce the plan, and set up an account into which people would give money. When the money accumulated to the point where we realized we could do it without debt, that was our sign that God wanted us to move. And one interesting thing about this plan: IT WORKED.
While other churches piled mountains of debt, we grew and grew by faithful expository preaching and God's people giving the money.
This method is what churches who are not growing decided to do in order to raise the money so they can grow. After all, if we do all of this building and expanding and spending, people WILL come, won't they?
Mac asked a few months ago: "Why can't we be cutting edge once again?"
The secret was: what we were doing was "cutting edge" under Lindsay, and it STILL IS cutting edge because everyone else is out there hiring capital fund raising consultants.
I just don't understand why the total silence from the pastor on this. I'm sure there is a strategy behind it, but why not tell us what is going on? He has obviously set the course of our church with the Next Generation campaign, and has spent already a slew of money to prepare the marketing push for the campaign. So let us know! Tell us the church leaders, which were lay leaders, deacons, etc that met on November 4th and they were all in one accord and we are moving forward? Can't he tell us that?
Mac should take this list of 210 and start his own church in NW St Johns county and let FBC Jax be used of God under new leadership that is humble and seeking God's plans, not building Mac's brand. I guess Mac still needs the rest of us to fund all of his plans for now and his appetite for luxuries prevents him from walking out from a job with so much salary and benefits for him and his family. At least the Ocala pastor was man enough to start his own church. Mac has to come in and reap where other men have sown and exploit their sheep. Does no one else see this?
Anon.11:51: You have it exactly right! This is exactly the problem. If only we had some people with back bone enough to "call his hand"! This church is being devoured by a money hungry group that will take all they can get and leave an empty, debt-ridden shell where once was a mighty force for the furtherance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is no mistake that this church is now preoccupied with programs and money grabbing schemes. I am a long time member and know of which I speak. It is sad and sickening that this church has come to this point. I remember when one came to this church, one expected and saw the mighty moving of the Spirit of the Lord, now there seems to be only saddness and silence.
RM, you state "this is the way things are being done now". WHY do would anyone think it's THE RIGHT WAY? The plan that the Lindsay's used for years WORKED. If all the people can't be trusted from the inception of a plan, why would you ask them to pay for it later? The people are not stupid, unless they let this stuff continue. Just because marketing, sales and "brand building" is now the "rage", does NOT mean it is of God. If anyone as a pastor, approves this type of action, then maybe they have had their share of "indoctrination", into the "corporate world" of church fleecing. Sorry but it's either one way or another. Just because the world has taken over the church, doesn't mean it's right!!!
Any idea who the 210 people were and how they were selected? Amount of tithe perhaps? Can we get that list?
"Personally, I think the Lord will give His vision to the pastor and the leadership of the church (be it elders or deacons) and then you go to the church for their confirmation."
That reminds me of something I've read about "vision casting." I cringe every time I hear the phrase "vision for our church," etc.
A weekly prayer guide from the "Director of Prayer" read...
"Pray for the commitment to the vision cast before us from the Lord through our pastor in sharing the love of Jesus with Memphis and all the surrounding areas in which we live."
My friend's response: Where has the Lord Jesus ever presented this doctrine? I mean, it's like Jesus is standing somewhere with a bow and arrow and attached to the arrow is this thing called a vision. Then Jesus releases the arrow and it zings through "our pastor" and lands on the ground before us. As it lands we bow to it as a sacred "message from God." Do what?
Do what, indeed!
I think Maurillo probably had it right.
"The Holy Spirit spoke to me last night and... "
Translation: "My wife spoke to me last night and... "
While at FBC, Mac and Debbie's daughter Courtney was married. The front of the church was neatly roped off for what we thought was the family. Can you imagine the gasps as the "select" few(about 100)_ were ushered in behind the ropes. We found out that the select had been part of the building group that supported Mac. They had received special invitations that allowed them to sit with the special people. Our dear friends told us about it and when they were to be seated they refused the special section. It really created very hard feelings that still remain in our church today. Mac loves to sprinkle some of his power and prestige on the few that follow him. How sad.
This cannot be real. If someone were to tell me that these types of egregious and self-centered ploys would be able to work on the people @ FBCJax, I would tell them they were crazy. The people of FBC have a lllloooonnnggg tradition of God fearing, salvation preaching, Christ centered past to draw upon. They have been empowered first by the Holy Spirit of God to discern those things which do not bring glory to the Father. They have secondly been taught, preached and have personally witnessed the power of God move in a mighty way in a local church.
How in the world can they sit there, actively participate (those in leadership, of the 210, have sat under the preaching of leadership of Lindsay & Vines) and not want to rush the pulpit and throw this money grabbing, purpose driven, marketing manic, angry, condescending, frequent flying, lawyer wannabe, third person talking, self congratulatory, non discerning, jealous of the past and history of the church he currently breaths in, nepotistic, greek loving individual (there were more words but I had to control myself) OUT!
This is so far beyond the pale of reason that I am sick to my stomach over what is happening to a wonderful fellowship.
Be strong FBC...this blog is necessary to keep the bright light shining in dark corners. Open your eyes and come out into the sunlight - yes it's true this is actually happening in your church. Everyone knows someone - ask them a question or two - find out for yourselves. You can do it without being confrontational - if there is nothing to hide then whoever you speak with will have no problem answering your question, but if there is something amiss you will sense it.
Ask, Ask, Ask...
In answer to "The Letter": Or What It Really Says:
"You as a leader".....
OR...You as a Kool Aid drinker with a hefty check book have been "specifically marked", I mean invited, because your influence and money are crucial. "You as leaders will lead us forward"....Right!!!! Make the "marks" think they are important...part of the movers and shakers. Friends of Mac, a special club. Make them feel like they are in the drivers seat. Give them imaginary power, so they can think they are actually part of the process. Puff them up, makes it easier for them to justify swallowing this stuff and easier to write the check. I would be embarassed to get this letter. And maybe a little angry also, that they thought I was stupid enough not to see through it. This church belongs to ALL not a special few, expected to sell the plan to the other less astute members.
"The staff and I believe",Right... the staff follows out of "fear of losing their position" in a failing economy. The "yes men" follow because they are "yes men".
"The HOW of the strategy is.....Get the money!!!
As for the "8th generation ministry platform" (platform..a political term),coming from God? Can we please stop assuming that God is responsible for what a marketing group (whom we pay big bucks) comes up with. The work of God is not the governing factor here. Because God is not preeminent, in this church, from all apperances. I am truly sick of hearing about money constantly. That's all we hear. Where is the spirituality?
Yes, we do love this church, and we do want it to fulfill it's ministry. This is where the road splits. The fulfillment of the churchs ministry would be the presentation of the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ. The first and foremost responsibility of any church should be preaching the Gospel to the lost, with the hope of reaching them with the Salvation message. Not a church leadership constantly begging for MONEY, using the church growth scenario as an excuse to acquire it. We have heard more about MONEY in 2 1/2 years than we heard in 30 yrs., under the Lindsays. Both of them. And these Lindsay years saw the greatest growth of this church, in attendance, building, but most of all SAVED SOULS. Their church growth plan worked. They just faithfully preached the Word, and let the Holy Spirit convict. They moved in building matters when God did. God led and the people followed. It was a time when the members grew in their spirituality as well.
The meal and dessert.....This likely was designed to cost you a bundle if you "fell in line". Just a little Kool Aid to help get you over the rough spot.
The "compact presentation",... was compact because it was already done. Just get on board.
The RSVP...The list of who will stay on the "most favored list" and who will not make the cut. Better show up to be seen and counted by fellow marks, sorry, peers.
Here is another question: Why should the church just give money over and over, when we don't know where the money is going now? You can't get any answers on the budget, expenses, salaries etc.
Question for Dallas: Is this the same type letters you all received when you started the building program that left you in debt when Mac left? If this church borrows, $20 mill, in todays credit tight enviroment, they will never get it without mortgaging the church properties. Do you all really want to mortgage your past success. Do you want to "gamble" that this leadership and marketing firm know what they are doing? I do not find anything resembeling a marketing firm in my Bible. As I see it under this leadership, so far, this church is going backward. In membership and certainly in it's spiritual direction. And most of all in people getting SAVED.
The "210 group", Mac's version of a small group!!!
What we have to realize as "forward looking people" is the past is the past. It can never return, turning back is not an option. We must SUBMIT to change, its the greatest thing going on, presently. Just keep putting out more changes and more changes and staying busy, busy, busy. It makes those in charge appear to be so overwhelmed with "the challenge" that anything they desire to commit us to has to be done.
So forward on into "the challenge" that is set before us. But wait, did I hear anything from God. No, I didn't. I heard 1st, from a pulpit committee, then I heard from the "yes men", then I heard from a marketing group. This a clue!! There must be a mistake with the leadership, it appears perilous, and out of control. I am getting out of here now while I can still hold my head up and be content in knowing I had no part of this new idea and fund raising. These small groups scare me. They are not right. They are not spiritual. I have not heard from God and believe no one else has on these matters either. Just another ploy to get my money. No thanks.
Remember the parking garage next to the Admin. Bldg. project. Initially, FBC went into that project with the city of Jacksonville. The city would rent it out during the week and the church could use it on Wednesday evening and Sundays. The city backed out, however, they had already paid for the architect and the design. So that funding was absorbed by the city and the church benefited. That's what is called Divine Intervention. That's the hand of God using the city to help the church. Talk about seperation of church and state!!Who was the pastor? Dr. Lindsay Jr. What had he asked the congregation to do? Pray and pray. There were over 2000 prayer warriors back then and the church was much smaller in total membership. The money was raised later and because of the city pulling out, the church saved about $500,000 in start up costs.
We need to get back to allowing God to make arrangements. He is able to outdo anything man can imagine. Unfortunately, the current plan has already gone to print. Remember Dr. Vines wanted to build condos on the corner of Ashley and Beaver. He asked the people what they thought and to pray. They did and the idea was canned. The church did not loose one cent in that project. The congregation then and now can make decisions, however, they have to be part of the team. The congregation should have been consulted on this new project from the get go. They should have been given an opportunity to voice their ideas and concerns. There are also building contractors within the membership, plumbers, lumber dealers, electricians, etc,etc.
Pray, pray, and pray more. Then see the hand of God move, and then and only then, go forward. Also, ask God for guidance rather than some Marketing group. There is enough talent within the congregation to build whatever needs arise. Until then pray, pray, and pray some more. What's the great hurry? We should be more like Gideon. Lord what are YOU going to do? When the church leaves God out of the equation failure will occur. You can't bring God into the plan after it has already been drawn up. We must also realize that the prayers and actions of a few (leadership) do not supersede the prayers and actions of all. Nor are they more holy. Thus, making plans by the few on BEHALF of all is not advisable in the church. Especially when the entire church is asked to pay for it.
Mac wanted prayer warriors to pray with and for him. How are they to do that if left out of decisions made by him? Praying after a fact is like asking God to approve of what has already been done without His consent.
Mac, Deb, Trey, Staff, A-Team, select deacons, trustees and 210. You fool those who are gullible. You do not fool God Almighty.
You smile behind the scenes saying to yourselves that "I am hearing from God." I hope you are, because you are so lacking in godliness and preservation of the holy scriptures.
How unbelievably childish and wordlish to hand pick a group of "leaders" to push the pastor's plan on the rest of the congregation. Very sad.
Word veriication: hypeepic
If you wish to listen to Yes-Men and how they sound, please check out this Emperor script from last week's A Prairie Home Companion.
Don't read the script. It's very confusing. Listen to it. :-)
Anon 8:05 pm,
Well said...I need to apply your advice to my personal life too.
Honestly, there are about as many godly ways for churches to raise large amounts of money for ministry projects as there are congregations doing it--and NO ONE blogging here can say about those congregations, "Hey! You're a church of absolute morons for not doing it the way we do!" How arrogant it would be (not that anyone here is--so don't jump on me, as is the tendency of some here!) to suggest such a thing of fellow-believers functioning under the leadership of the same Holy Spirit, and who's to say those believers aren't?
As others posting above have said: the practice is a very common one among churches in these days. The approach relies on the first group making early commitments for finances AND for participation in recruiting the remainder of the congregation to do the same (not "elites" first but innovators, then early-adopters, then middle-adopters, then late-adopters; no effort wasted on opposition after initial efforts to win them over). The approach can be done either with or without the assistance of an outside organization providing guidance (it gets expensive if the leadership of some of the available outside groups are used). For large amounts of money sought, the entire process might be done several times before the total is finally raised. Such a project is not easy to initiate or to manage once begun; it can be a way to solve space constraints/capital improvements due to growth--or it can be an expensive bust (some congregations which have tried this approach in order to finance building are now sitting in huge unpaid-for auditoriums but no larger in attendance than when they began the effort years ago).
It seems that a possible leadership failure in this new FBCJax wrinkle (can't wait to see what's next there!) is, not necessarily the selection of this process rather than the one used before, but that the entire congregation appears to have had little/no say-so on the front-end before any approach at all was chosen. Of course, as has been typed repeatedly by FBCJax members posting here, that is the way right now among you--which means the top lay/professional administrators don't "get" what being a team is and more trouble will result unless . . . (unless I don't know what, in your case--but not passive agressive anything).
Best wishes, folks.
Readers: Click here and listen to Calvin Carr's message "And the Iron Did Swim" that he preached at his church 11/23/08. "Heart" and "Annointed" preaching. Go Calvin!!
Hey Watchdog - just wanted you to know that I was sent a letter by the "Discipline Committee" of the FBC Jacksonville. I will scan the document and email it to you privately. Feel free to post the letter, but please redact my name and my wife's name before posting. Trespass warnings to both me and my wife were attached to the letter.
My "offense" or "sin" for which I am being banned? Not child molestation, or sexual sins, or criminal activity... Ready for this? The full wrath, power and authority of the big FBC Jax, its deacons and trustees is being poured out on me based on unsupported accusations regarding my alleged involvement/association with this blog site. For my wife, her great "sin" for which she was banned from the church property was "associating" with me!
Thanks Watchdog. I am sure your readers in the church and around the country will be interested in how the church and the pastor abuse their power in trying to harass and intimidate people into staying quiet about their concerns.
And don't be concerned, they were unable to provide any proof whatsoever to support their accusations against me. (My wife is definitely "guilty" of associating with me however.)
And no, I did not receive any prior contact before being brought before this committee as required by Matthew 18.
This should get interesting! :)
Feel free to send the letter and we can get it posted. Recommend blotting out all names on the letter before sending to me however. Interesting indeed.
When you were brought before the committee what happened? Feel free to communicate privately via email.
My goodness! How did they know you posted on this blog? Most people post anonymously or under an anonymous screen name. The few I remember who posted using their real names (supposedly) were Mac supporters. And they wonder why anyone who dares criticize the great Mac Brunson posts anonymously? This should answer your question.
Do you have children? If so, were they banned, too? If you have kids, I'd think they'd be as guilty of associating with you as your wife!
Do you know of anyone else who's gotten a similar letter? This is unbelievable!
You know, don't you, that Matthew 18, like the qualifications for a pastor, is just a "guideline" for megachurch pastors these days.
anon 11:51 a.m. here - To clarify, I have not met with the committee since I am not aware of any obligation I have to do so. I suspect the recent by-law changes you have been blogging about contain something about the committee and its powers. However, I have not seen those by-laws so I can't be sure. I was there when the church voted on the changes, but there was no explanation of what those changes were, and no discussion by the church prior to the vote. I doubt a quorum of members were present either. I will be looking into those things if and when I am sent a copy of them as I have requested.
Until then, no way I submit myself to six men down at the church acting outside their scope of authority. If the by-laws do contain changes that set-up the committee, and those changes were validly made, then I plan to meet with the committee to discuss their accusations against me man to man. (Or make that man to 6 men.)
Anon 11:51 - it looks like whoever is on that committee may have acted prematurely against you in their zeal to satisfy, pacify and brown nose the pastor.
It also appears they may have acted hastily based on faulty information without checking their facts first. You don't think they were fed rumors and believed them without demanding proof first do you?
As for your wife being banned for associating with you, I would think that was done primarily for the sole purpose of increasing the stress and anxiety on you and your family. It definitely appears they are using these unbiblical tactics to "force" you to submit to a committee set up by the pastor before any evidence against you is presented to you. They all have to know that doing that was nothing short of bullying and intimidation of a sweet, Christian servant lady. Most likely that was Deb Brunson's idea. She may have issues with servant hearted female lay leaders who serve the Lord without demanding salary and benefits to do so.
Anyone on that committee ever hear of "due process." I know churches believe they are above the law, but surely the members of the committee would demand the accused be confronted with the evidence against him before demanding he respond to rumors. And without the by-laws, what power do they have anyway?
Oh well, power corrupts. Will be praying for you anon 11:51.
anon 11:51 here - thanks anons and WD for your support and prayers.
I have peace knowing that I have not done anything wrong.
I will continue to post my thoughts and comments here along with the rest of you.
The full wrath, power and authority of the big FBC Jax, its deacons and trustees is being poured out on me based on unsupported accusations regarding my alleged involvement/association with this blog site.
So they don't know that you've ever commented here before. It's "alleged." But I thought Mac didn't read the blog. Why should Mac care what a little group of recalcitrants write? There is that little thing called the First Amendment... or did you have to sign away your First Amendment rights when you joined that "church"?
Were these "trespass warnings" official police or court documents? As long as you aren't disrupting services or harrassing anyone or doing something illegal, I don't understand how they can ban someone from attending church based on "alleged" allegations of posting on a blog.
Readers: I did receive the letter as well as a few other items from the Anon 11:51 and a longer email of explanation from the Anon of what is going on. After reviewing these letters I am absolutely shocked that the church has stooped to this. Sending a letter with official trespass forms threatening arrest or removal, and according to this person no one ever so much as visited them to explain the sin of what they were accused before issuing these warnings is UNBELIEVABLE.
I will post something on this tonight or tomorrow to give a fuller airing of these issues and the tactics apparently now being used by Team Brunson and his new discipline committee and trustees, whom he himself appointed. I tried to warn you church members, that when the church changes the bylaws in the most hidden manner possible, with not one single solitary word from the pastor about the changes, and there is not so much as a squeek from the people, it will end up biting us in the butt. Tremendously empowering to a man when he knows he can change the bylaws of the church right under the noses of the church members granting himself authority to select trustees, discipline committee members, and bringing the finance committee into the trustees reporting to him. Now the pastor has a discipline committee apparently empowered by the pastor to issue TRESPASS WARNINGS against those who are suspected of voicing their concerns on a public blog. THAT is scary stuff. Doesn't surprise me though. This is why I have tried to warn our church about these tactics. I knew where they were leading.
Perhaps the most shocking thing is the trespass warning against the wife, and not allowing the wife to accompany her kids to the church property when her offense on the trespass warning says "associating with member engaging in willful misconduct of a church member." So the wife, who according to the Anon is a member of 20 years, has served faithfully at the church in almost every area of ministry and is CURRENTLY serving in ministry, was never contacted by the church about anything involving her or something wrong she has done...and lo and behold she's mailed a trespass warning banning her from the church property under threat of arrest.
Wow, wow, and wow. Quadruple WOW.
More to come shortly. Stay tuned.
Here is an excellent article about this same tactic.
I have always felt, that there was a group of paid staff or volunteers parsing the comments on this blog and trying to connect the dots to identify bloggers on this site. They did identify me fairly quickly (within two weeks), because of my comments. We will see how this play out.
Thy Peace - I thought you were not a member, and an out-of-towner? Why would church staff then want to find out who you are?
They identified me from my comments, and they targeted me by breaking the video stream of fbcjax and showing the taped comments of Pastor Mac reading some of my comments (from my first post) and trying to "make fun" of my two words I ascribed to him. They were not that negative. Most of that comment was actually in support of him then.
Such is life. When the leadership is under fire, even mild dissent is considered and equated with worse and worse. I do not wish to compare them to dictatorship, but at least their reaction was such.
Thy Peace, how do you know that they know who you are?
What??? How the... ?
Anon- When you go for your disipline committee hearing I have a couple suggestions.
1-Wear a suit.
2-Have a small tape recorder in your inner jacket pocket.
WD - I am confused. Do those letters say that blogging in and of itself is a sin that will bring discipline? Or does the letter state that only blogging in disagreement of the pastor is what is sin? So is it the blog, or just the content of the blog, that they disagree with?
And I can't help but wonder: Is accepting a $307K land gift within 3 weeks of coming to town and then later putting up a commercial for the family of the donor "sin", or is just blogging about the simple fact that it happened is the "sin."
Maybe Mac should be brought before the committee for his acts instead of the anon bloggers here.
Oh well. We all may be next! We better keep quiet. :)
My first comment was made in the 2nd week of August. My comments were fairly naive. Earlier I had emailed Pastor Mac and Jim Whitmire, about how much I liked fbcjax and their music ministry.
If you remember the easter - Media evangelism fund: They started announcing it, with my comment read as the first one. I am from Philadelphia.
I am probably the ONLY person who watches fbcjax from Philadelphia. From the video stream, they can easily find out who is watching from which cities.
Also, when then broke my video stream, it took them about 3 attempts for that to take place (over one week period).
As I look back, I just find it very funny. It would have been easier, if only Pastor Mac learnt how to to blog. He or one of his help could have posted a comment in this blog. But they did not. They choose to send a taped video comment back.
I also noticed soon after that, ALL of Pastor Mac supporters stopped commenting on this blog. They only came back recently.
Ok, to clarify:
You were watching the service online and then it cut to a video of Mac responding to your comment?
Aren't FBC Jax's services broadcast from 316 Networks? That's not FBC Jax's site. I'm sure FBC Jax has access to all the IP addresses of those tuning in to their broadcasts and landing on their website so as to gauge where their audience is (among other things), but you're telling us someone at FBC Jax cut into the broadcast stream on another site and "hijacked" one person's computer? I'm just trying to wrap my brain around all this.
I also don't understand how they would know "Thy Peace" is in Philadelphia. That's not in your profile. Are you saying they connected your emails to "Thy Peace"?
Think of it as ... constant disconnections, followed by auto-reconnections ... after a lot of them, their taped video segment, then disconnection .... then the regular service.
This was my first comment, that elicited the response from fbcjax leadership:
ThyPeace said ...
I have to make a public apology to WD and all you members of FBC, Jax. In the past I have also encouraged you to publicly share your names and that you would get done by going public. Seems that I was entirely wrong if what is being said is true.
I have been a Baptist pastor for 43 years and I have NEVER heard of anything as incredible as this! Personally, I would put my name, home phone, and address on everything and just dare them to try to remove me from the church. I would hope they have real deep pockets to protect them from all the lawsuits.
I hope you will all accept my apologies. I didn't really know there were people like this on the planet earth...
You are daily in my prayers as I imagine the days ahead are going to get much more difficult. However, I do think you are up to the task!
To Thy Peace,
I don't really understand exactly what you are saying happened to you which leads me to think you are very technically inclined...because I am not.
BUT..if they were able to identify Thy Peace in another state, then they must have had trained technical people "on the job" trying to identify bloggers.
What a way to spend church dollars.
And what an affirmation of the bully tactics that the Baptist ministers and leadership are willing to go to silence people and keep anyone from interfering with their agenda.
This is worse than a cult....it's more like the mafia!
How dare any Baptist church bring anyone into a "discipline" meeting about a blog before they take a stand with their many fellow ministers...starting with Page Patterson and Steve Gaines....concerning the damage their actions, words, and behavior have caused the many victims of clergy sexual abuse.
Mac and his mafia team are more concerned about an individual blogging than they are ministers who have covered for predators, lied and mistreated victims of clergy sexual abuse??????
Way to keep biblical priorities in line!!!!
A minister on staff at our seminary here was almost fired by Baptists...and definitely slandered and lied about when he hinted that SG did not obey scripture concerning the qualifications for a minister!!!(never mind just moral responsibility)
Yes....we can see how concerned these ministers are with the unsaved, the wounded, and anything to do with reconciliation.
Anon...whoever you are...make this as public as you can!!!
Let the world see how bogus Mac is....and the other mega ministers like Mac!!
When our "crusaders"(just another way Christa Brown was recently referred to by an SBC minister)
appear on the Oprah show to expose the abuse and cover up by these ministers....we will make sure letters like these are made public also.
The world needs to know what these self annointed, control freaks will do to protect their own little kingdoms !
This would be a great topic for the Pastors confrence: how to properly issue tresspass warrants to keep bloggers off your property.
How to use the internet to track down bloggers so that trespass warrants may be issued
Why all Catholoics are cult members and priests cult leaders
It's very easy to identify the city you are from your IP address. The tracker on WD's site is mostly accurate. For reasons I explained earlier, I seem to come from europe or california. But the video streams, they would have done it correctly as coming from philadelphia.
I am not upset over it. At that time (about 3 months ago) I was. But now, it's actually a blessing in disguise.
I have discovered through WD's blog, other blogs and richer SBC theological discourses on blog sites. So on the whole, I have been richer after this incident.
I am not angry with anyone. I only wish the best for fbcjax.
I feel if the leadership only allowed participation of the sheep in the decisions of the management and allowed dissent, the Church would be a richer place.
Elder rule vs. Congregation rule : Elder rule might work IF they allowed for transparency in their operations.
I am sure all these questions will be brought up in the next month as this member who is being brought before the discipline committee for blogging comments on this blog site.
Hello Anon 2:56, anon 11:51 here:
WD has the letter and may put it up here without names in it, but the letter doesn't accuse me of the sin of blogging because that's not a sin I dont think. Its the things that they accuse me of saying on the Internet that are the sins that I've committed they say.
The letter has a very long list of sins that Ive committed that reads like a lawyers inditment. No one has ever in my life accused me of such things, and no one at the church has spoken to me about these. The list wasnt mailed either, it was hand delivered by two staff members the eve before Thanksgiving, who first called and hung up on me to confirm I was home, then they rang the doorbell, I opened the door and invited them to come in as they are long time members and ministers that served for decades dated back to Lindsay, men that I admire and respect greatly, one that used to be my Sunday School teacher. They refused my invitation to come in, but just handed me a letter in a sealed envelope on my front porch and told me to read the contents and then they left.
The list in the letter is too long to give here, but I could give the buzz words used in the 3 page list of my sins:
questioned without factual basis
jeopardize the security
belitted and ridiculed
threaten unity and harmony
willfully and repeatedly committed
So those are the words used to describe my sins to be devisive at church because they say I'm owning or associated with this blog, and they for good measure tell me at the end of the long list that is not an exhaustive list of my sins, just a sample of my 'destructive behavior'. So I guess they have more sins and maybe will tell me what they are if I meet with the committee of 6 guys that I don't know. As I understand it, people that have read the letter and the trespass warnings tell me that until I meet with this committee I will be arrested as will my wife if we ever set foot again at our church where our kids have been raised and baptized and served.
And let me throw this in about the meeting with the committee - after staying up with the Sheri Klouda situation I know what happens when regular people talk to power people without representation. The powerful person can represent the conversation anyway they like and people will believe them. Imagine me in a closed room with 6 men that I do not know, but that I know are very powerful men in the church based on their position and affiliation with the pastor. I need someone with me I think at least to make sure nothing said is misrepresented later. The church told me that never will I ever be allowed to have representation at any of these meetings, ever, period. The link above that someone has submitted on this site sent chills down my spine as I read it, and am so very glad that I didn't let these guys bully me into submitting to their demand to meet with them as a condition to attend church services last night to see my daughter sing.
But as I've said I would meet with this committee if they first tell me why they are accusing me of these things, if they give me a copy of the bylaws that explain my rights and responsibilities having to do with this committee - and what their rights and responsbilities are as a committee - and if they agree to at the very least let me take an independent witness into the meeting with me. But they've told me no, so I'm banned from my church as is my wife, I guess forever. And she ain't happy about it, as she can't accompany her kids to their activities at church. I guess they'll also issue trespass warnings on my kids, and other friends and relatives that "associate" with me since that is the sin they are accusing her of worthy of a ban from the property. My kids associate with me, as do my friends and relatives.
Sorry to ramble here.
Do you have any idea about how they identified you?
I'm not questioning you about what happened but how someone could have altered the video feed so only you could see it, or did they splice it in and broadcast it to everyone watching? I do understand how IP addresses pinpoint your approximate location (or your identity if someone has access to the appropriate databases) and that trackers, for whatever reason, often show the wrong location. What I can't understand is how they could essentially hack into just your computer and show a different video from what everyone else was watching. I also can't believe we're even discussing all this! I hear strains of The Twilight Zone theme coming from my computer speakers.
So those are the words used to describe my sins to be devisive at church because they say I'm owning or associated with this blog, and they for good measure tell me at the end of the long list that is not an exhaustive list of my sins, just a sample of my 'destructive behavior'.
You mean they're accusing you of being the Watchdog? I thought they were accusing you of commenting on Watchdog's blog. LOL! Now that's funny. Well, not really funny. More like laughable. I wonder which of the geniuses up there deduced that.
Anon 11:51 here again -
yes, they say I own, manage, and/or control, I authored or permitted to be authored they say information on this blogsite.
And they haven't told me what the basis is for the accusations yet. I am guessing they would tell me if I met with them in the meeting, but I'm waiting for a copy of they bylaws and for them to change their minds and allow me to either tape record it or bring in counsel with me and then I would gladly meet them. They told me this meeting with the six men of this committee is ecclastical in nature meaning its of a church business nature and not a legal nature and that is why I can't have representation at the meeting. I don't quite understand that logic since 6 on 1 or 6 on 2 (if my wife goes) when the 6 are powerful men in the church and I'm just a regular member. It seems that they could come out of that meeting and say anything they wanted and they would be believed. I don't have any reason to believe that they would lie about me, but I'm just trying to be wise about this. My common sense tells me meeting with 6 powerful men in the church alone with nobody to witness it when these men have issued trespass warnings agains me and my wife and sent a letter to me accusing me of a long list of sins wouldn't be wise. But if they are so powered by the pastor to do what they're doing I guess they can do it. They are saying don't come back here ever until you first meet with these six guys.
What they're saying about the meeting being ecclesiastical and not legal is laughable. They are the ones who turned it into a legal issue by threatening to have you arrested for trespassing. You should just schedule meeting and then show up with an attorney. Put them on the spot to have to refuse to meet with you.
Mac Brunson is the pre-cursor to the anti-Christ and the deacons and elite few are the henchmen.
Trace me if you will, you will find a well grounded individual who knows the In's and outs of not only FBCJ but the SBC.
Be careful where you tread. Your sins are in the open for others to reveal.
I cannot wait until this story is revealed to the media.
I am praying for you. They plan to intinadate you, use you as an example and discard you. Please hang in there.
When they identify me, they will will not want to hear the messages I can reveal.
WD, keep us posted. I have family in Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, New York, Georgia and New Jesey who want to keep posted.
Expose me Brunson and your silly team! Your property is not God worthy now, so who would want to defile it?
Brunson, trustees, deacons and select few are now classified as the "Gestapo."
I hope to spread the word through out the Internet blogsphere. Mac, Deb, Trey, Deacons, Trustees, A-Team deserve no less.
I'm sure you must be tracking me, so you will be surprised!
I agree. You don't need their permission to have a witness...or councel.
Logical thinking tells us that if someone does anything legal against you....you better have legal councel yourself.
They are just being bullies because they feel so powerful and you asked them ....so of course they want to stack everything in their favor. They are playing God and it feels good to them.
You also don't need their permission to blog...unless they added something to the bylaws about blogging.
Since the new bylaws haven't been made public...how would you know that you "disobeyed" the bylaws anyway?????
The victim the BBC minister confessed to abusing asked several times for a meeting with SG and very specific people in the room. SG's refused because it wasn't the path of least resistance for him. He didn't want any fingers pointed at him.
They wanted everything in their favor...no respect or common decency for the victim.
I beg of you not to be controlled or degraded by putting yourself in a position of vulnerability with these business men.
If they DO in fact know your identity.....you are gone anyway...so why allow them to treat yu less than you deserve.
They have already gone against scripture....don't expect anything honorable out of these people.
They will not alow a blogger to get in the way of their "annointed" riches and rewards here on earth.
I'm very sad that JW stays there after being on the other side of this type of ungodly behavior.
Go to the meeting and secretly tape record them.
Dog - do the "201" know about this letter that was given to you? Do they know of the abuses of Mac? Are they aware of the efforts to silence you and us? Maybe I will send them an email since I am one of them. :) Most of them know nothing of this blog. But they will soon. Very soon.
Anon 10:20- be VERY careful. Sign up for an anon Yahoo account and send it from there. It would be great for them to find out about all this.
To Anon 11:51am:
I am very sorry that you have been fingered. I pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ to show His Mercies on you and your family.
From my reading, you are not WD. You do not own, operate this blog. So the accusations against you are baseless.
The only accusations against you are that you comment on this blog.
I do not think they can identify your comments as an Anon, until and unless you had previously contacted them through email and shared that info on this blog.
If that happened, that would be the only transgression, if any, you might have committed.
Of course, this need to be examined by checking the current bylaws. Also seeking some kind of legal counsel, if the current bylaws are valid. This would take time for legal counsel to pass judgement on its merits. But at least you need some outside party or legal counsel acting as in independent observer to go with you to this meeting.
Before you do ALL this, please pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ to fill you with His Grace. Since clearly you are not WD and you do not operate this blog, you do not have to fear.
They are clearly treating you as a pariah.
But as God's people, we should be calm and seek God's wisdom in this.
May God bless you Anon 11:51am.
From what has been posted at this blogsite about FBCJax's current bylaws it is clear that those bylaws were established in violation of the previous bylaws. Courts usually will hesitate to intervene in the affairs of a church; however, courts will intervene if a church's official documents are violated by its members, as the body as a body previously agreed to abide by them. It appears that FBC's trustee board, for whatever reason, has violated the previous bylaws and set itself up for difficult times to come if what has become the major theme of this thread is pursued by it. If or when the body general understands what has taken place--particularly in violation of the original bylaws--I would not want to be either a board member, a staff member, or a member of the pastor's family; things may be that bad. The Lord Jesus uttered the words recorded in Matthew 18, not for no good reason at all, but for His church to function by on a continual basis. Blessings to all--they will be needed.
This is pure curiosity on my part because I have friends in Philly.....do you have a church home there?? Do you mind sharing what area of Philly??? If you do...I understand...no problem :)
Please go for it. We are behind you and support you. Blessings.
God never intended for this church to be so abused nor the people who love it and support His kingdom.
If FBC's leadership believed it finally had identified the WD, it probably would have acted as it did toward 11:51. Just another example of the lack of judgment on the part of those leaders. Where does the mismanagement end, and the humility and true teamwork of Christ's sake begin?
Time for someone to suggest a local newsreporter look into this matter? The light thrown on the situation publicly could be just the thing to bring it all to an end quickly. Can be done anonymously by emailing any reporter for the local paper--and can be in the newspaper by Saturday morning, with reporters at the church house front doors on Sunday morning requesting interviews with the elected leaders.
Anon 11:15 - it is not at all clear to me that the current bylaws are invalid - I am quite certain that these men did things by the book. They are very smart men. My beef with the bylaw changes has always been the secretive nature, and the silence of the pastor. However, the trustees did announce the vote, they put the bylaws in the library for anyone to examine, and they told the congregation they could submit questions via email. So my hunch is that this was all done to comply with the method of changing the bylaws prescribed in the former version.
However, I still believe this manner was secretive, purposely minimizing distribution of and knowledge about the proposed changes.
And if the changes included a signficant difference in church governance (dissolving the finance committee and bringing those men into the "trustee" camp, and giving the pastor the power to nominate trustees, and creating a discipline committee, and giving the pastor the power to appoint the discipline committee), and not one single solitary word of explanation or summary of any of this...well that is just plain WRONG. Its "shady" at best. If, if this was only one of a few things the pastor did in his first few years here that was controversial, we might let it pass.
So I am not at all quick to say the bylaw changes are invalid, I would be shocked if they violated the old bylaws in making the changes.
But how can a church have a discipline committee if the pastor himself would not be subject to it? And how could there be a discipline committee if the congregation is not told there is one, and is told how they might bring a complaint to the discipline committee? How would a pastor be disciplined if he is the one appointing the members?
All questions to be asked as the trustees begin to lower the hammer on the bloggers.
Anon 11:30: whether it be the WD or bloggers or blog readers, let them come at us. I won't succomb to their pressures or their call to attend a discipline committee member should they ask. To use a Macism: "The last time I checked, the United States government said I had freedom of speech" (referring to Mac's famous statement in defense of his land gift and million dollar home: "Last time I checked, the United States government said I could live anywhere I wanted to, last time I checked.")
Anon 11:36 - no local reporters are interested in stories related to FBC Jax. Trust me. Even one that contacted me via email who has read this blog ...the only question he had was: "Why do you stay anonymnous, and isn't it un-Christian to accuse your fellow church members of sin in the blog?" No interest in the information here on the land gift, the nepotism, the bylaws. They're interested in the salacious, like sex sins such as the Gilyard case. But bylaws, land gifts, bloggers, trespass warnings, nah. Its boring church business.
Can you say FBCJax Gestapo.
How about flyers on windshields on Sunday. Buy some drunks a 40 of the Bull (40 oz beer for all you baptist who don't drink) and let them paper the place. Gorilla marketing tactics. Do I need to come to Jacksonville and lead the revolt?
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