Watch the clip below to see Mac lecture his congregation like they're a bunch of restless 3rd graders who can't sit still. Out of an audience of 8000 people a few head for the exits as he starts his closing history lesson, and he decides to call 'em out and then bless us out as though for 2 1/2 years we've been nothing but rude during the invitation time.
That is a flat out lie.
But leave it to Mac to think we're a bunch of dolts who can't sit still.
He's such a flaming hypocrite, when HE is the one who is regularly rude in his sermons. He's the one who has left early to catch a plane for his Mediterranean cruise and left while the invitation was given.
His brazenness and hypocrisy is breathtaking...almost as breathtaking as the Kool-Aid drinkers who actually applauded his rudeness.
Watch the video for yourself.
I think its all about power.
He loves to talk down to his people as though he is the one who has it all together...that if we would just listen and obey him, and sit still while he preaches, we would all achieve the wonderful spiritual plane that he is on. It gives him a feeling of power over his people.
You know, I always thought a house of God was supposed to be an inviting place, where even the dredges of society were welcome, where you would be loved as part of the family of Christ to which the members belong.
I have been a member of FBC since 2000. A relatively short period of time compared to many, but I remember sitting downstairs and watching this older lady start coming to the services in what had to be a nightgown, for weeks. She eventually began wearing other dresses and stayed among us. But no on ran her off - he was welcomed.
Dr. Vines would always ask for as many people as possible to refrain from leaving once the invitation started, but never chastised anyone who left anyway. I am utterly appalled at our pastor's behavior.
How dare you, Mr. Brunson, as a Man of God, chasten your congregation for anything, especially leaving a few minutes early when you have no idea why they did it.
Is this what Jesus would do? No, he would just say an extra silent prayer for the exiting ones, for a safe journey and that the reason was for leaving that was not serious.
I have not been attending much lately - we have a small child and
I won't leave the baby in the preschool area - but we have left early before, and I know had I gotten called out like that? I would have never come back. It looks like that is going to be the case as it is.
I am so saddened by what is going on there that I can bring my baby up in such chaos. I only hope we can find some place close that the spirit of God still rule the services and reign in the heart of the man at the pulpit, unlike at FBC Jax.
Dr. Lindsay and Dr. Vines did the same thing and a couple of times I specifically remember Dr. Lindsay getting really upset about it and telling the congregation "THE SERVICE IS NOT OVER!!!" when he moved to the invitation. Like it or not, everything Brunson said was right on the money. I am sorry you apparently don't see it in the same light, but I have personally always viewed the invitation as the most important part of the service and it has irritated ME to no end to see people walk out.
No way, ain't gonna cut it here.
Vines or Lindsay didn't tell us "if you can't sit for 5 more minutes..." Vines most certainly NEVER did this, as he was a perfect gentleman in the pulpit. Both he and Lindsay would give their standard "please, nobody be moving unless its an emergency or necessity"....and can I point out something obvious:
BRUNSON WAS NOT IN THE INVITATION...HE WAS GIVING ANOTHER ONE OF HIS HISTORY LESSONS BEFORE THE INVITATION. He doesn't like it when people leave during his history lessons. It is one thing to be leaving at the end of a sermon when the guy is talking about William Randolph Hearst, its another to walk out as the invitation is given...LIKE MAC DID. Mac was heading out the door as people were coming down the aisle.
Face it...Mac is just plain rude. Its HIS church in his mind, and he can call out people who might have a legit reason to leave.
But you do have to respect his brazenness...its a sight to behold.
Didn't Mac and Deb run their tails off before the end of the service to keep up with Mike Huckabee leaving early after his last speech at FBBJ to catch a plane?
Get real Brunson, you are a hippocrate!
Team Brunson, all inclusive, wants and demands total control of the church, finances, congregation, appointments, events, deacons, discipline committee, finance committee, lay persons, teachers, staff, volunteers, employees, trustees (which are laughable) and the rest. What's left? Ask Hitler, when you see him.
I sit up in that area and have left early for reasons that are no business of you or the pastor's.
I leave when I want to, I'd love to see one of the olders . . . er . . . elders try to scold me in front of my wife and children. That would be funny, for me!
I have been at first for over 20 years and have left early many times. I've seen the looks from the high fluters and really never cared what they thought, slept well those nights!!
Come on a mission trip with me and watch the kids run up and down the isles or sit near the open windows near the Amazon and hear the loud buzzing of insects and bats and the drunks sitting outside the church shouting and laughing. Watch the men and women all worship in their own way with men and women coming and going and guess what . . . God still touches people and changes lives!
I answer to my Saviour not any one of you! By the way you have no need to worry about me leaving early anymore . . . I left the church some 6 months ago. My family and our faithful tithe and service have found a loving church and yes from time to time I'm going to leave early.
Sad to watch this once strong church begin to falter. God Bless FBCJ which was here before Big Mac and his fries and hopefully can withstand his tenure.
Dr. Lindsay used to always ask people to not leave during the invitation. Waiting for the completion of that critical part of the service is respectful and indicates that the church as a whole is unified in regards to its importance. I've always thought it was interesting that Dr. Brunson didn't mention it but that he eventually would. Well now he did and apparently that's a problem and he shouldn't be doing that. Oh, he used the wrong tone? I thought the way he said it effectively made his point! Okay, so he himself had to leave early once to make it to the airport for a flight. Is that really worth criticism? I think sometimes there are valid reasons (such as his in that case) for leaving early and he did mention some possible situations that would be justified. By the way, the story he was concluding the sermon with was about the founder of Hurst Publishing looking for a piece of art to acquire that he in fact already owned and it was very fascinating and was a great illustration about being content with what God has blessed us with!
Thanks Watchdog. Many, many people are catching on. Not because of you, but because of Mac Brunson.
My family left early one Sunday as a neighbor called the Fire Dept claiming our house was on fire. Another time we left early as one of my parents was in the hospital. Another time I couldn't make church due to a sudden illness and had to enter the hospital. Does anyone ever consider "things happen" at different times to different folks? Doctors have been called out numerous times for emergency reasons during church services regardless of the moment in time. When the hospital calls the doctors leave, its that simple.
I believe those that leave early normally have a reason, and like the gentlemen said, its no ones business. But walking in the mall or trying to get out in a traffic tie up in this city is dangerous. People need to relax about what others may need to do. There are a lot of reasons for exiting and I just listed a few, there are hundreds and possibly thousands so just chill out!! It's very rude of anyone to chastise another on their behavior. That's between them and their MAKER!!
To the Mac defenders:
It is just amazing how he lectures us that "rudeness" (which he interprets as leaving before his wonderful history lesson is done) reflects on Jesus...when it is HE who is the rude one in almost every sermon in the manner that he preaches down his nose and yells at his audience, jumps back and amens where he was just standing, and assumes we are all mindless idiots who can't manage a budget, and on and on.
Mac has a knack for criticizing others for what he does, and a knack for doing what he tells others not to do. But he is "Mac" and we're not...and he calls the shots, and we don't...so he can do as he pleases I suppose.
I guess it never occurred to Mac that behaving the way he did
(like an angry dysfunctional dad)
would be MUCH more distracting and unsettling to visitors before the invitation began.
I know this breed of self annointed mega ministers believe what they say has more power to convict than the Holy Spirit does but his little tizzy prior to the invitation had to have shut down so many people.
Dignity appears to have left the pulpit.
What ever the reason, getting up and leaving is rude whether it's people in the congregation or the pastor himself. Doesn't matter what the reason is, it's still rude. Yes, sometimes we have to leave early but don't try to excuse rude behavior.
I didn't see anything in the video that doesn't happen to us at a 250 attendance church.
As someone who doesn't have a dog in this hunt I can't for the life of me see what's got you so worked up over what was shown in the first video.
You have to understand Mac's total body of work as pastor in 2 1/2 years to see why he's such a jerk to reprimand the congregation. He has done more to turn visitors off by his yelling, anger, condescension. And this little speech about leaving early probably would have made some visitor thinking about Jesus wonder why the guy was worried about a few people leaving early.
Come on people GET REAL. People leave early. They just do. Get over it. Can't the Holy Spirit convict a sinner even if some fella is leaving early? Come on.
And again...Mac was NOT in the invitation. When you get to the point where you are inviting people to make a public committment, you tell people to know move around absolutely necessary.
Mac accuses others of precisely what HE does, only he does it on a much grander scale. Beautiful!
I think Pastor Brunson addressed the issue just fine. He wasn't rude, he was straight up. Too many times have I seen people leave the services at the invitation wearing Jaguars jerseys just to catch the kickoff. YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS RUDE DR. DOG, LEAVING THE SERVICE AT THE INVITATION TIME TO CATCH A FOOTBALL GAME IS RUDE! An individuals eternity is way more important than an NFL kickoff!.
Even so, our pastor said in his comments that people have medical needs. I think a house on fire falls under the same category of EMERGENCY as does a medical need. So get real anon.
The invitation is the most important part of the service.
**If you can't stay another two minutes for people to walk an aisle and acccept Jesus into their lives, then you don't need to show up to the service at all! Do the church a favor and stay home and record the service on your tv. You bet I just said that.
I think the main reason that Mac is so upset about people leaving early is because he views his sermon/history lessons as a performance. And just like any performance, the drama and the emotional build-up all lead the the finale. And in this case it is the invitation. So, if anything interrupts that chain of events, he thinks that people are not going to walk down front, like "oh, too bad, I lost the feeling now".
More "professional" pastors that give strong expository preaching without all of the emotional drama sometimes don't even have an invitation, or simply just say if you want to talk to someone, you can meet us down in the front at the end of the service, and then just end with a closing prayer.
And God uses those messages just as much as the drama/emotional-based ones. The difference, if someone getting up during the service affects you coming down front, then they probably are not really ready to follow Christ anyway. When God moves in the heart of a person, the Holy Spirit will lead that person to talk to someone to understand how to come to Jesus.
Tough dog poop, Robert.
People leave early. Get over it.
Mac, get over it. People leave early. And in an audience of 8000 it happens. Sometimes visitors are there and they don't know what an "invitation" is, and THEY are the ones leaving early because they figure its about to end and they want to beat the rush. They are not believers and you can't blame them. And if they did turn to leave and the bully pastor calls them out...you can bet they'll never darken the doors of our church. But I guess that would suit you fine Robert, since we judge people based on whether they stay for the whole service.
I do thank you Robert for your post, because it shows just what begins to happen when we have an out of control, abusive, angry preacher for 2 1/2 years. We now have a young, gullible man named Robert who actually dares to say that people should stay home and NOT ATTEND CHURCH if they think they have to leave early. Want to go with your son to a Jaguar game and need to leave a little early? STAY HOME! DON'T COME TO CHURCH, lest you be judged by Robert.
Robert actually says STAY HOME.
Hey, a thought: maybe the discipline committee can get on this, and issue warnings to people who dare to leave during the invitiation. We could use a three strikes and yer out, policy...leave early three times and you get a trespass warning! That would show those recalcitrants leaving early!
This is what will happen to FBC Jax as Mac continues at the helm. People will leave, and guys like Robert will come in that take stupid stands like "unless you can stay for the entire invitation, stay home".
I feel sorry for you Robert. You're letting Mac really cloud your judgment.
Perhaps Dr. Brunson has not reached the stage in life, where, the "physical body" sometimes requires urgent exits. But he will. I hope when he gets to that point in life he will remembe how ugly he was to people in the congregation.
You don't feel sorry for Robert. It's your judgment that has been clouded. You've become so immersed in your own sin, you can't see the forest from the trees. You can't handle chastisement from Dr. Brunson or fellow church members.
So when you hear things you don't agree with, it's Dr. Brunson's fault. You call him rude then call him an ass. Your hatred and hypocrisy towards him is evident to many, but not to you.
Your inability to handle being chastised was exactly why I knew you would find fault in the discipline committee, prior to any church action. I had no issue with the concept, none at all. And while you hold it against Dr. Brunson, for not handling discipline according to biblical mandates, you yourself carry on in this silly, sinful and public display of criticism and discord as a means of disciplining your own pastor. While he works in public, you hide behind a mask.
I'm certainly not defending him. I am not a member of FBC Jax.
Frankly, I'm just calling you out. You can't and will not handle this well.
I don't think I have ever seen a pastor as rude as this one. And I have been in church for a very long time. This man takes the prize. My question is once these types are in total control of the church, somewhat like a cancer, does anyone have a recourse, other than leaving. It's like living in my house for 30-40 years and someone else just moves in and takes over. Making me very unhappy and I no longer have any control over my own house. I must take orders from this interloper or leave my house. So I must leave my own residence along with maybe some other neighbors who have had their house taken over. Get the picture! That's where we are now. I go into the church that I have attended for many many years, and get yelled and screamed at by someone I didn't vote for or have any input into hiring and someone I didn't KNOW 2 1/2 years ago.
Any suggestions other than leave?
Dr.Dog...For the first time I agree with Robert..Rather than be berated and treated like a 3yr old,and on top of that having to listen to Mac's history..ERR..preaching I'd rather stay home...Genius Robert,an absolutely genius idea!!
Anon 9:14: You are not a member of this church so what's your beef. I am NOT the Watchdog, but I will correct your comments. You were not here at this church under the Lindsays. You have no idea how this church was once a Jesus loving, spiritual, Bible believing church. It was led by a man of God (as well as his father). These men loved Jesus and they LOVED THE PEOPLE. When there were problems, these men dealt with them in love and with the Word, not with anger and rudeness. It is now RUN by an arrogant, bitter man that in my opinion, is not called to be a preacher. After all he is the one that said he didn't want to be A LOCAL PASTOR! (his words from the pulpit) Talk about being divisive! This regime' has turned member against member. It has definitely put the "fear of the preacher" in many, as people are afraid to show any sign of displeasure, they just put on the "phony smile" and pretend that everything is OK. It's either that or just leave. And many are trying to "wait it out". If this preacher left today, you would hear a huge collective sigh of relief.
Anon 9:14am 01/08/09...Do you have any clue what you just blogged?..Your expert opinion rings hollow and your respect for Mac is evident as well as your disdain for Dr.Dog is also evident..Dr.Dog may not have done everything correctly; But the evidence against Mac that Dr.Dog has presented is overwhelming...Come to think of it nobody has given me an answer as to why a man that has supposedly been called and compelled by Christ to preach the Gospel has to negotiate a massive salary(almost as much as the President of U.S.)in order to do what he is required to do!!What if FBCJ had not meet his shakedown..I mean his generous demands,would he not have come to lead God's flock?
There is always a good reason for leaving early. A reason we can justify due to our circumstances. Many people have stated such. Though, I would say that just because we think it is a good reason does not make it so.
Is it possible that some people are leaving when it is not necessary? Is it possible that people leaving can disrupt the mind of those around them who God is working on and our movement can be used by the enemy to keep people from responding to Jesus? Is it possible that even an illustration (you use the term history lesson) is being used to help listeners make sense of the things being shared. Dr. Vines used many illustrations, some personal some historical. It is common to good preaching.
Shouldn't the bigger concern be the souls which need to not be disturbed, distracted, discouraged due to people leaving?
Probably not since that would make Mac look correct.
People who leave during a sermon--at any point--and certainly during an invitation time for no good reason perpetually: should stay home. Pastors who consider folk leaving during the invitation or sermon on occasion for some good reason: they should stay home.
Everyone should grow up during 2009. At judgment, each person will stand alone before the Lord; get ready now for that day then.
Sorry, as long as Brunson is going to treat his people with such disdain, and is going to change bylaws in a secret manner, and is going to lie from the pulpit and all of his other shenanigans, he will have to deal with this blog. As I told Robert: TOUGH DOG POOP.
It sort of goes with the territory: be a pompous jerk in the pulpit while earning huge salaries and bennies, putting family on staff, and yelling at your people and selling advertising and hiring Maurilio as a church marketing consultant...that's fine, do all of those things...but you have to be willing to put up a blogger who hides behind a mask.
It is written,
Did Mac negotiate a massive salary?
How much does he make?
How much should he make?
Would it be wrong if his total package was between 175,000.00 and 200,000.00?
Since it seems so many think he makes so much,is there anywhere to back up the words you choose to use or is it just easier to splash unknowns out for public viewing?
Brunson defenders have a hard time dealing with the real issues.
We can all agree: its best for every single person to say in their seats during the invitation. Its best for no one to leave.
However, some people leave. Especially an audience of 8000 there will be those who leave: some going to a football game, some who are unsaved visitors who don't know what an invitation is...some unsaved who hate invitations...some Christians who are just rude....whatever...but here's the point Brunson defenders that you are missing: LET THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDE PEOPLE, DON'T YOU BE THE HOLY SPIRIT. And certainly don't drink the Kool Aid and say that people who can't stay for the whole service should stay home. That is insane. This is another example of how Mac wants power and control - he wants to be the Holy Spirit...he believes he must manipulate people through his forceful words and angry tone to get people to "obey" what Mac thinks they should do. Its one thing to kindly request that there be no movement during the invitation...that can be said respectfully in EVERY invitation and probably should be said ("we're going into our invitation now, and I do request that there be no movement unless it is a necessity or an emergency"...you know, like a gentleman would say)...but to set the Bible down and give us a lecture on how to behave during the invitation, and to treat us like 3rd graders, and to tell us we need to respect the church more, is just RUDE and ARROGANT.
Those of you who are defending Brunson's rudeness have become numb...you've sat under Brunson for so long now that you have lost the ability to discern between a loving preacher, and an angry out of control power freak.
Did the Watchdog just say that? YOU BETTER BELIEVE HE DID. AND IF HOMER WERE ALIVE, HE'D SAY IT TOO.
You say that Mac said he never wanted to be a pastor and he did this from the pulpit. Is that a wrong thing? Does that mean he should not be a pastor?
The bible says Jesus said He did not want to die on the cross (Father, if there is any other way...), was that wrong, does that make Him any less of a Savior?
We need to be careful. I hope this is not the biblical foundation you came away with after years under Vines or Lindsay.
There is a simple solution to this problem.
During service, at different time(s), there should be "breaks" in service. At this time, there could be some background music. If it is understood by everyone (or announced by Mac before hand), they can leave during those periods, for whatever reasons.
This way everyone can expect some movement during these periods.
I have heard SG of BBC say something really bad about this. I am unable to find a link to the audio/video of this at BBC blog site. Maybe NASS can provide a link?
SG says of people leaving early during service, that it would be fun to close the church doors on them while they are leaving, so they will be like bugs hitting the windshield. Then he laughs about it.
Why not just tell everyone to stay at home and let the Holy Spirit do His job?
For whatever reason God placed Mac at FBCJ and He is not surprised by his character, behavior, strengths or weaknesses.
Why not let God do His job and you quit trying to be Macs Holy Spirit and get Him to bow down to your requests.
If you're going to throw "total package" numbers around, please include Mrs. Brunson's "total package".
What is her total package? Can you give us a range? And how about a job title? Is she a "co pastor"?
For whatever reason God placed Mac at FBCJ and He is not surprised by his character, behavior, strengths or weaknesses.
God may not be surprised, but I am certain he is not happy with Mac's behavior. Did I just say that? You better believe I did.
God didn't place Mac in his position. It was the search committee, and the people of FBC Jax that put him there. Did I just say that? You better believe I did.
Unfortunately for us, Mac changed the bylaws AFTER he got in to make sure the congregation could not undo what they had done. We have buyer's remorse, but now we can't undo the damage and get rid of Mac since the bylaws were changed taking away the right of church members to call for a special business meeting.
Didn't know that? Well you do now. Did I just say that? You better believe I did.
Dog, answer the questions I asked about compensation and I will post a response to your question concerning Mrs. Brunson's salary.
I believe God gave FBCJ either what they needed or what they deserved. Some at FBCJ just have not figured out which one yet.
It can be blamed on the committee but no matter how you spin it, God is still sovereign and Mac is at FBCJ either because God made him go there or allowed him to go there.
So the problems should be taken up with the one in charge and ultimately it ain't Mac.
If the Brunson's total compensation his first three years is $175,000 per year they are under paid and should get a raise.
But I say that to say this:
Don't throw numbers around unless you give us: TOTAL COMPENSATION including allowances, Mrs. Brunson's salary, her allowances, benefits, etc - and please include the speaking engagement money he earns while he is away preaching conferences while we pay someone to preach in his stead. And whatever number you give, be sure to increase it by $100,000 (since the land deal was worth $300,000, we will split that over 3 years and call it $100,000 per year).
OK, now give us total compensation numbers for Team Brunson...
Personally, I'm glad Pastor Brunson is learning to have a quiet time first thing in the morning before newstime. His suggestion to fast from news on tv.is "cult like". How about fasting from all tv. Some folks teach their family--no Bible--no Breakfast. Also Christian radio is a great way to hear God's word in the car and at home.
Let's keep praying for our Pastor. He might just catch on that the congregation is a little bit more mature in their Christian faith than he is.
Anon 10:08 Did Mac negotiate his salary????? Of course he did, that's why it's kept a secret. If the "selection committee" (joke) had made the salary a public matter prior to hiring anyone then we would not have a problem today. But these selected people seem to think only they can have privy info regarding this matter. Well then let them pay the salary. Don't require the rest of the church to be responsible for a figured salary they don't explain or divulge!!!! To you businesmen: Do you hire people and PAY them without knowing how much you pay them? Do you allow them to make money on the side traveling to other venuses when they are supposed to be doing YOUR business? And talking behind your back (his employer) about how bad a person you are. Do you allow them to tell you when they will be at work and then take vacations when they want to? And do you allow them to make you hire their family members and you not know how much you pay them either. Are you sure it's still YOUR BUSINESS or have you been a victim of a hostile takeover?
What Mac makes outside the church should not be considered towards what he is paid by FBCJ. I don't know of any pastor who does not have some sort of away opportunities where the church does not pay the guest speaker.
It matters not that someone gave him a house,land or the queen's diamonds, these have nothing to do with what FBCJ compensates him and never should.
Would it be wrong if Mrs. Brunson was not compensated?
Any tax knowledgeable person would know that Mac can have benefits that are non taxable which Mrs. Brunson can not. So to pay her anything would increase their tax liability. Lumping anything she may be worth into his package would be the most viable thing and she would not have to answer to the body in the church concerning salary.
Check your thinking, at least.
I don't see numbers. Let me help you.
Mac's Allowances: _____________
Mac's Bennies & Ret: _________
Deb's Salary: _______________
Deb's Allowances: _______________
Deb's Bennies & Ret: _____________
Value of Gifts
given to Brunsons
upon hire (land,
free rent): ___________________
Money made by Mac
I say the last one is important, since we have to pay speakers like David Allen to come speak in Brunson's stead....
Mac likes to tell us how tough he has it...and he told Brumley he doesn't make anywhere near $300,000, so let's have the numbers.
You can fill in the blanks Anon.
ANNON 10:14.... Jesus WAS GOD!!! I don't think you can compare Jesus on the Cross with ANYTHING Mac Brunson says or does. Repeat.... It was Mac that said HE did not want to be a local pastor not me. How do you think the congregation felt hearing that?
And as I was under the Godly preaching of the Lindsays (both of them) for more years than you are possibly old, don't you worry about my Biblical foundation. You better worry about the Biblical foundation that people will or will not have after a few more years of Brunson!
It matters not that someone gave him a house,land or the queen's diamonds, these have nothing to do with what FBCJ compensates him and never should.
Baloney. Total rubbish.
#1: Mac himself said pastors shouldn't accept gifts...read his book.
#2: It is unethical for the CEO's of 501(c)3 non-profits to accept six figure gifts from DONORS TO THE ORGANIZATION. Ask anyone running a 501(c)3 whether it would be OK with the board of trustees that the leader who is paid a hefty salary for their services by the organization - turns around and accepts gifts from the donors. Nope, it doesn't work that way, except in mega churches where the pastor has hand picked his trustees and vacations with them and hob nobs with them. Mac is paid to do his job by the church, and he should not be accepting large gifts from donors to the church, unless perhaps he fully discloses it to the church.
Let Kevin King, or Dan Elkins accept a $300,000 gift from one of the big shots at church, and see if Brunson would agree with that. Especially during a time when $20 million is raised...I don't think Brunson would like that, and rightly so. He would tell Dan or Kevin: "that money belongs to the church, we pay you for your services"
I've just stumbled upon your blog through a Google search for fbcjax (I need some contact information for a mailing list I'm compiling). I'm not a member of your church and have no idea whether what you say is true or not, but I was intrigued by the title of your site and decided to check out the blog.
After skimming the two most recent entries, I have such a bad taste in my mouth and feel really, really sad. Again, I have no qualms with the content of your posts and no dog in this fight, but I'm pretty surprised at the sardonic tone and bitterness that permeate this site.
There are charitable ways for adults to handle conflict, and there's the way you've chosen. I don't think I would attend your church, not because of your pastor, but because I might find myself stuck in the elevator with you ... and you scare me.
Hoping you rethink your tone,
St. Andrews, Scotland
"Sardonic tone" and "bitterness"...good way to describe Mac Brunson's preaching.
Anon 10:42 (queens diamonds) Sell that stuff somewhere else. I checked my thinking.... We are still being ripped off!!! My boss would never allow me to earn money somewhere else when I am in his employ and work for him at the same time (hours) I am supposed to be working for his company. Guess what... my boss KNOWS how much he pays me....imagine that!!!
And to say that many preachers do these types of things: negotiate salaries, moonlight,etc. DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT OR OK. They just get away with it. Both Mrs. Lindsay Sr., and Jr., worked alongside their husbands in ministering to the people, witnessing, and hospital visits and much, much more. These women never received or EXPECTED to be paid. And they taught S.S., and New Member Class. I imagine they have heard by now,"Well done good and faithful servant". That beats money,fame and power any day.
Anon 10:08am 01/08/09...He should not live like a king and get rich off the backs of the members who donate their hard earned money!!Biblically money's given to any Church are for the purpose of meeting the ministry NEEDS as it pertains to proclamtion of the Gospel and also helping faithful members who may have fallen into difficult situations,not for million dollar homes,expensive automobiles,personal foreign trips,etc...It's amazing the clarity of Scripture reveals to all that greedy teachers will infiltrate the Church and merchandize the people and then sport their deceptive gains right in front of the people[2Cor.11:20].
Question: Since the preacher gets to chastise yell and scream at the congregation,(rude) who gets to chastise yell and scream at him, or does he not have to answer to anyone. He certainly has his faults. I know you will say he answers to God. Well guess what... so do I. Therefore, he doesn't get to chastise yell and scream at me either. 1 Timothy 2:vs.5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".
Rebecca in Scotland: You have a long history of Godly preachers from Scotland, plus King James. You probably have not had the experiences we are currently having here. Believe me it is the congregations that are the victims here.
"... I'm pretty surprised at the sardonic tone and bitterness that permeate this site."
It's good to look at the causes. What you are speaking about are the effects. Sometimes, questioning those in authority can get shrill. To be fair to WD, if you look around in the Southern Baptists Blogosphere, WD is pretty tame. You will come across Pastors who are very shrill. Of course WD is saying those words can be attributed to Pastor Mac's treatment of the flock.
Scotland is a beautiful place.
Christian George Blog
Sex, Sushi & Salvation: Thoughts on Intimacy, Community and Eternity
"I checked my thinking.... We are still being ripped off!!! My boss would never allow me to earn money somewhere else when I am in his employ and work for him at the same time (hours) I am supposed to be working for his company. Guess what... my boss KNOWS how much he pays me....imagine that!!!"
You are not the pastors boss.
If you want to complain about the pastor receiving monies for speaking elsewhere and the church paying the pulpit supply, then you need to browbeat your former pastors as well.
It is a common practice in churches, including FBCJ (historically), why is it such an evil now?
ANNON 11:55 On the contrary, the pastor DOES work for the church. They PAY his salary. He WAS hired by them....As to being his boss, please see above. The pastor CLAIMS no boss, that is my point. And he is not my boss either. And the LINDSAYS never made "speaking engagements" elsewhere. They didn't even want to be President of the SBC!!!! There were seldom "supply" preachers and then if because of illness they were out of the pulpit it was "supplied" by preachers on staff, Barton and Carr.We did have occassional Revivals which did bring many souls into the Kingdom. The things going on as "Common Practice" today that you refer to, are exactly the PROBLEM with the churches today. And these "common practices" are what many of us are blogging about!!!!! I like your choice of the word evil, I hadn't really thought of it that way. Thanks (your words).
Actually, according to the pastor's own words, he has "28,000 bosses" (see hyperlink below)...so we are his bosses according to him. Listen to his declaration about how pastors don't want accountability...which is so strange since he changed the bylaws to make him LESS accountable to his congregation. If there ever was a pastor who does not want to be accountable for his salary, for his gifts, for his preaching gigs, for lies he tells in the pulpit, for anger expressed in the pulpit, for nepotism, it is Donald McCall Brunson. Junior.
Listen to this clip about how he is accountable...be sure to not be sipping your coffee as you'll spew it all over your monitor as you laugh at his assertions.
You are right about Vines...yes, he did travel and earn honoraria...but come on, there is one Jerry Vines - he was a significant figurehead in the conservative resurgence and biblical inerrancy debate of the 80s and 90s, and he was very much needed to travel and preach around the country at seminaries and churches. But when he traveled he let us know where he was going, and when he would be out of the pulpit...and it was RARE that he missed a Sunday or Wednesday night preaching engagement. Unlike Mac, he took his responsibility to feed us the Word very seriously. With Mac we get a steady diet of history lessons.
Lindsay did NOT travel to different churches like Vines did. He pastored his church. He wasn't out to gain glory in the SBC amongst his contemporaries...he pastored his church. He did write books...he pastored his church. He wasn't so busy that he had to hire marketing firms like Maurilio "A-Group" Amorim...he pastored his church.
Brunson not only travels and preaches, he regularly does not tell us when and where he is going, he preaches at churches and at conferences (like Mac's 4-day Pigeon Forge conference)...so I think Mac's travel outpaces even Vines....but Mac needs to build that brand...and who can forget about how Mac uses his out of town preaching gigs to blast his congregation in Jax behind their backs...and of course to talk down Mrs. Criswell and Mrs. Truett. Disgraceful. But there is still a market for Mac's services, so while there is a demand to pay Mac to preach, he'll take advantage of it.
Because it was done in the past, doesn't mean it is right. To be paid for a job and then you don't do your job and go somewhere else to earn additional pay while your employer pays someone else to do your job...that is what we call double dipping. That Vines did it doesn't make it right.
Meant to say that Lindsay did NOT write books...not for profit anyway...he gave small booklets out for free.
Dear "Thy Peace,"
Thanks for the shout-out to my husband and his book. I usually have to find not-so-subtle ways to spread the word, but you've done it for me :). Thanks!
He also has another one coming out next week:
And yes, Scotland is beautiful.
Some men that strut consistently across the pulpit platform are entertainers or performers. Those that stand behind the pulpit are called genuine preachers. I've noticed a lot of self professing preachers today like to be admired and praised and if they arn't they get an attitude. They insist on always being thought of as "perfect" and dislike being viewed otherwise. That's why its very hard to deal with any of them, since they have such a high opinion of themselves. Spurgeon raised chickens on the side so he could give the eggs produced to the poor. OH, to have Spurgeon types back with us. The business world has these super ego types who take all they can and provide little incentive to their workforce. They get rich quick and then leave an empty shell and the employees have to find another job as the firm folds. The employees did their job but the big shot ran off with all the money and destroyed the business by his actions. Its a real shame that the church has fallen for these type men coming in and ruining a church. Its all about them don't you know. But, GOD knows the genuine servant pastor and missionary worker and HE keeps perfect records!!! There are genuine pastors and lay workers that serve God and their fellow man, they are just hard to find, as they are becoming rare.
I feel sorry for you Robert. You're letting Mac really cloud your judgment.
Are you insinuating that because I don't agree with you, I do not posess the ability to discern for myself? My ability to rationalize is clouded because I agree with a pastor and not some bitter, anonymous blogger who claims to be a genuine concerned church member but who is actually a wolf in sheeps clothing. Give me a break.
Robert - you demonstrate a lack of discernnment young man because you believe it best for a person to stay home and not come to church if they can't stay the last two minutes of a sermon...among other foolish things you've said here in your zeal to defend Mac Brunson at all costs.
But that's OK, I understand. Its very difficult to face the truth about an abusive, angry pastor. Our previous pastors taught us to respect the position of pastor, but they never met the likes of Mac Brunson.
More and more people are catching on to Mac and his antics, you're just a bit slow but you'll come around I'm sure.
Robert.....I FOR ONE SAY YOU ARE CLUELESS,A STOOGE FOR MAC,ARE A FOOL!!!!!!
Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!" shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!" shall be in danger of hell fire (Matt 5:22).
Robert: You need to study the Bible seriously for yourself. And pray for wisdom. To study is a commandment from the Lord. "Study to show thyself approved of God". Do not allow yourself to follow a man. Like Dr Lindsay use to say, man will disappoint you everytime. When you know the truth it will set you free from these hangups like following a man...any man. Get it?
The Mac supporters will back him no matter how bad things get. They think that he is God's man. They believe that no pastor ever does anything wrong;THAT ALL PASTORS ARE GOD'S MEN. They refuse to believe that he was the PULPIT COMMITTEES MAN. FBC JAX just rubber stamped him. Hey!!! We only heard him preach one time then voted on him. Give me a break! We had no idea who this guy was.
Now we find out that he is making a huge salary and perks. Where is it going to end?
When are we going to change the bylaws again?
Check out Kenneth Copland bylaws. Copland is the President, his wife is the Vice President and there are other family members who help run his 100 million dollar church. How many millions do he and his family earn? TONS!!!
Mac is not going to Wait before he continues to grab further control of the church.
The Mac supporters will just sit there and let it happen. Can't you just hear them.
IF GOD WANTS MAC TO MAKE MILLIONS, LET IT HAPPEN. HE IS GOD'S MAN.
I have read this blog for several months now and have never left a comment until now. I was a member of FBC Dallas for about about two years while I lived there and upon getting married my wife and I left when we moved to another town. During my time there, I really enjoyed Dr. Brunson's syle of preaching, his passion for the Word, and his persistance to share the gospel with the lost world. We left Dallas before he did, but I have continued to follwo him.
This blog is a real disappointment. All you people do is spread gossip about your pastor, his family, and other members of your own Church. You want to relive the "Glory Days" of past preachers and not embrace today or the future.
Bottomline, it is perfectly legal for me to give my current pastor if I so choose a dinner at McDonalds, A new car, or a new home. That is between me, him, and God. Not any of you.
I would encourage you to really examine yourselves in 2009. What are you really doing to further the kingdom? Are you building it up or tearing it down? Because what you are doing on this blog is talked about in Ezekiel and Revelation... you are persecuting the Church my friend. I hope you see that.
First Baptist may soon be a "paper tiger". They way this economy is going, Mac may soon be holding a whole "lot'a nothin".
"SG says of people leaving early during service, that it would be fun to close the church doors on them while they are leaving, so they will be like bugs hitting the windshield. Then he laughs about it."
Like bugs on a windshield!
Scott - absolutely, you have every right in the world to offer to a pastor a meal, a vacation, or a $300,000 tract of land. However, I seriously doubt you would give a quarter million to a pastor that you had only just met, would you?
And just because a gift is offered, doesn't mean its right for a pastor to accept it - especially if you wrote a book for other pastors saying they shouldn't accept gifts; that makes you look like a hypcrite.
Most corporations have rules for their employees to follow when it comes to accepting gifts from vendors or customers - they recognize that its possible for gifts to have an influence on the decision making ability of the employee. I see this as no different at all...pastors should not be accepting large gifts from donors of the church unless it is fully disclosed to the church.
No one in leadership wants to admit they made a mistake in bringing Mac to Jax,(star struck) after all he was from Big D. People are so shallow when they believe that being from Big D, New York, or Chicago means something. Mac grew up in a little small place called Greenwood, South Carolina...not the other three places. Fortunately, it's not where you are from that counts. It's what you bring with you that counts...humility, kindness, graciousness, able to say no as well as yes, able to learn, able to adjust to others opinions, not wear your feelings on your sleeves. If one cannot do this it really doesn't matter where they were born. Hope this helps in evaluating the encumbent employee. It's also not the suit one wears but who is in the suit, how they show their behavior to others, the manner in which they treat others, especially those to whom they disagree. Paul visited Derbe, Iconium, Antioch, and Lystra. While there he was beaten and stoned. Yet, he returned even willing to die to share the message of salvation. This should make most pastors consider themselves unworthy to call themselves God's man. Paul was Gods man! Many are called but few are chosen. At our best we are but filthy rags!!!! To consider ourselves as worthy in the light of the Cross, is arrogant. To be gracious to ones friends and followers is easy. To be gracious to those that do not agree or even like you is the mark of maturity in Jesus. What's the old saying..."To err is human, to forgive is divine". We all wanted Mac to succeed when he came here. Because that meant the church would succeed, and we would continue in the Lords work of winning souls to Jesus. Somehow, the train left the track.
Does Mrs. Brunson serve in the church in any capacity? I know she is on staff. That is her paid position. I mean does she teach a Sunday School class, does she visit the sick in the homes or hospitals? Does she visit for the purpose of leading someone to Jesus? I assume she visits friends, but what about the lost. I have heard that she has given a testimony on mission trips. But how does she participate in the local church she is in? Has she ever given her salvation testimony? I know it isn't required, but it is good to hear a pastors wife give her salvation testimony. Maybe she has and I missed it. Shirley would talk about Jesus as long as anyone would listen, anytime, anywhere. I am not being critical, I just wondered about these things. I truly don't know.
After listening and watching the video, I do have a problem with Mac saying "we should treat this place a little more sacred that we treat it. This is God's house."
The very stage he was standing on and expounding these words of wisdom is the very same stage he has placed for sale to the highest bidder during the upcoming pastor's conference. Some respect he is showing, don't you think?
Double standards for the pastor and hypocrisy at in action.
Good point Anon...the contradictions and hypocricies are so many its hard to keep up. How sacred is he treating out sanctuary when he holds a fund raiser for an Israeli hospital where abortions are performed...and how sacred is it to charge $12,000 for a "premium promotions package" for the pastor's conference.
As I said the brazennes and hypocrisy of Mac the Knife is breathtaking...
I love how the Dog has to always imply Roberts youth in such a condescending manner.....I think the the dog has a serious elder complex.
I am not Watchdog.. but I will say here... Wait until you are "elder" and see if you feel you have an "elder complex", especially when people younger than you are trying to tell you what to do. The advantage of age is ALWAYS EXPERIENCE!!!! As the saying goes..."Youth is wasted on the young".
A little off topic...
I just recieved an email telling me the Premium sessions at Pastors Conference are now free.
I am a pastor who made the annual trek to Jacksonville each year to be challenged and encouraged in ministry. I won't be attending this year as budgets are tight at the church.
Sounds great...I suppose then they'll be refunding the money that attendees have already paid for the premium sessions.
Thanks, Scott, for nailing it on the head. I'd give more if I had it. I certainly would not bow down to some "watchdog"'s self-imposed gift limit dictate.
PS Anon 10:30: My gray crown speaks for itself.
"Thanks, Scott, for nailing it on the head. I'd give more if I had it. I certainly would not bow down to some "watchdog"'s self-imposed gift limit dictate.
PS Anon 10:30: My gray crown speaks for itself.
January 9, 2009 1:52 PM"
Well, if you feel so strongly...if you don't have enough to impress...get thyself a second or third job, and give it all, not to the church, but to the pompous pastor, and then maybe you will get a commercial featuring yourself which would be displayed during a worship service...
I never remember anyone leaving the church during the "once again we've come to the end of a perfect day at God's house, with the late Lindsay Sr.
Almost everyone in the congregation waited, and would not dare leave during the sermon or invitation because they did not want to miss the blessing of being sent out into the world, workplace and communities without hearing the soothing, reassuring words of "yes, we've come to a perfect day in God's house."
I do not worship the past, but some of the gentleness and gracious manner with which members were treated was a standard that Mr.Brunson should honor and emulate for the sake of presenting Jesus first, not self.
There are many existing deacons, trustees and members still in attendance who should reflect from whence commeth the present and question the future under the present regime.
Annon. 8:02 End of A Perfect Day:
I, like you and others that were in the Lindsay Sr., and Jr. era, remember the graciousness with which Jesus was presented. I do not worship the past, but long for a gentler day within the church. I think the elements missing now are harmful to the cause of Christ. I do not respond to arrogance, anger, and pomposity. Nor, do I think, many do. The Lindsays were serious about leading the lost to Jesus. They were gentlemen in the pulpit, and out of it. Both were bold preachers of the Gospel, compromising nothing in the Word. They presented the whole counsel of God and were forceful in their preaching style. But the difference was in the gentle manner they treated ALL people. You cannot "badger" people into salvation. Nor can you talk down to those who have been in the congregation for years. Many having served.
The difference here is in "class" and allowing Jesus to control your manner. You cannot show forth the love of Christ, that died on the Cross, while angrily "spitting" hatefulness at the people. It is ridiculous to have to endure it week after week, much less be "badgered" into "paying" for it. I have come to question whether Salvation of the lost is still the mandate, and primary reason for the existence of this church. And indeed, the "calling" of this preacher. So many of the important things that go into leading the lost to Jesus are no longer prominent. Such as encouraging witnessing, visitation, just generally showing the love of Christ to ALL. There is a callousness and meaness in the church now. The world is such a cold, hateful place, the church is to be a haven and respite from it. Believers are to be kind to each other. I have not felt kindness for a long time. We must understand that the primary reason for any church is to lead the lost to saving Grace and to Grow in knowledge of HIM, and in HIS Word.
Indeed we miss the End of a Perfect Day, and the loving graciousness of these two men that encouraged us all.
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