2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Friday, October 17, 2008

What to Do After Asking for $1 Million Cash - Part 2

As a follow-up to my post "What to Do After Asking for $1 Million Cash"....at left is our loving, humble pastor (right), and the head of the FBC Jax finance committee, Tom Stimler touring Europe.
Just wanted to draw a parallel between the disgust of so many Americans when we saw the AIG executives take a European spa vacation just days after Congress voted on a $50 billion bailout for their company, and the disgust of believers at FBC Jax over Mac and Mr. Stimler taking a European vacation after asking us to give $1 million cash (or $200 per "giving unit").

The week after Mac asked us to give $1 million for his "bailout" of our dilapidated facilities that our leadership (Mac and Stimler and Leverett and Blount, Jr.) failed to take care of with the $40 million given since he started his tenure, he and the chairman of our finance committee, Tom Stimler, headed off for a tour of Italy! Yes indeed, the same two guys who oversaw a year where we grossly overspent on missions (by Mac's own admission - click here to listen as he 'fesses up to his NC friends while preaching out of town, and read about it here), held out their fat hands for a cool million in cash from the plebe of FBC Jax. After we gave, they boarded a plane for a tour through Italy with their wives. Ain't God good? Amen! "We're gonna have CHUCH!"

Memo to Trey and A-Group: please work on a special project whereby we can begin charging for the Sunday Anniversary Announcements. I've made a few suggestions below that you can start with.

Platinum Level: Jim Whitmire puts your picture on the I-mags, calls you to the platform, and we show a brief 3 minute video testimony of your marriage - including your place of business if applicable. Mac says a few words, and tells you what each of your first names mean in Greek. Cost $9550 w/ financing available. "Ultimate" Upgrade Available: Each grandchild can come to the platform with you, for only $500 per child under 3, $750 per child ages 4 to 12. Mac will pray for your marriage for an extra $750 (paid separately to Inlight Ministries).

Gold Level: Jim Whitmire calls you to the stage, Imag image show for 9.5 seconds, Jim shakes your hand, and gives wife 1 rose. Cost $3999 (1/2 payable the Sunday before, balance due at conclusion of offeratory prayer day of showing - 5% penalty for late payments). Super Duper Upgrade available: $50 for each additional rose. To have Mac shake your hand, $500 (paid separately to Inlight Ministries).

Bronze Level: Jim Smyrl will call you to the platform, announce your names, shake your hand. Cost $399. Upgrades: Jim will do said shaking of hand without tie for $250 (paid separately to Loyal Heart Ministries). Jim will use his whispery voice and pray for you for an extra $99 (paid to Loyal Heart Ministries). Flip Flop Special: Jim will wear jeans and flip flops for $29.99 (paid to Loyal Heart Ministries). Leather jacket and chaps worn by Jim with jeans only $19.99 extra.
Limited Time Only: BAPTISM BONANZA SPECIAL!!! Have Mac re-baptize both of you on that Sunday evening for only $1000 (baptism garb and towels extra).

BRAND NEW!!! If you want to have your grandbaby dedicated, even if they live out of town and are members of another church, you can have Mac dedicate them for $150. Rose for mom an extra $25. Mac to read your babies first name in Greek $100. Middle name for $75. Researching to find a verse for your grandbaby is $100. TAKE YOUR GRANDBABY DEDICATION TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL: For an extra $1000, Mac will do the baby dedication on a SUNDAY MORNING! Just like he did with his grandbaby! Imagine the pride you will feel as our man of God pastor dedicates your baby in front of 8000 church members. For a limited time Mac will sprinkle holy water on your grandbaby if you register for your grandbaby dedication by the end of October!

JUST ANNOUNCED: Any members who have son-in-laws that need to be ordained to the gospel ministry, we will do that for $10,000 on a Sunday night. If you arrange for multiple ordinations on the same night, a 25% discount will be applied. Schedule these well in advance to make sure that night our pastor is not on a Mediterrean Cruise, Holy Land Trip, Preaching Gig at Pigeon Forge, Preaching Gig in North Carolina or New York, or on a European Vacation with his favorite trustee.

That is a start, anyways. Come on Maurilio, now let's get creative in how we can raise some additional revenue!! Trey and Maurilio: Watchdog is available for consulting, I charge $150 per hour for my church marketing services; would be happy to meet you at Deerwood Country Club for a "creative session" on this and other special projects.


Ramesh said...

Mac and his compatriots are trying to draw lot of people to Christ. This is probably to replace all the old timers who have been at fbcjax for so long and seen so much. They are succeeding in pushing away the people Lindsay's have brought in with so much hard work.

They might succeed in the short term.

In the long term they will lose them ALL.

All Christians will see the difference between surface glitz and substance. Christ has to take root within each heart and it will always discern the world outside and if it matches with the Word.

So much flash and so little substance. The same with the fbcjax website too. Lots of FLASH and graphics and very little text. They are dumbing us down on par with TV.

I sincerely and humbly suggest for David Allen and Mac Brunson to switch their offices. I am hoping David Allen is humble.

I personally think more than preaching, more than management abilities, more than tough talking, what we need is humble pastors. With the love of God in their hearts, all will change. Without this love, nothing will happen. That is of substance. Things might look like they are happening, but only on the surface. Not in the interior of people's hearts.

Let us all pray for God to have mercy on His children.

Ramesh said...

My humble apologies. I need to replace the "it" with either He or Him or Holy Spirit. I am not good at this.

Anonymous said...

PRAISE God! They both look like whales, while promoting Healthy Pastors, Healthy Churches. You be the judge.

Look into Stimler's background and then tell us the qualifications to head the finance committee of a non profit organization; he knows all the loopholes and has advised Mac accordingly. Fleecing is the number one process of most insurance executives. I know of two exceptions at FBC Jan.

Anonymous said...

What's "CHUCH"?

Anonymous said...

Thank you thy peace. You are a calming and expository example to follow.

Anonymous said...

Upon first glance at that photo I didn't think Mac was wearing a shirt. Oh, my eyes!

Anonymous said...

PRAISE God! They both look like whales, while promoting Healthy Pastors, Healthy Churches. You be the judge.

They obviously have healthy appetites.

Anonymous said...

I would suggest that those preparing and publishing the Memories of Shirley Lindsay; do not prostitute a publication for profit. It would seriously demean the memory of an earthly saint.

Anonymous said...

Mac, have a good week-end in Pigeon Forge; this will be the 3rd week of 4 you have pastored your church. Bring ye the tithes.

Anonymous said...

Another Lindsay rememberance: Concerning the church facilities: Dr. Lindsay Jr., used to walk all through the facilities often during the week. Turning off the lights left on, saying the electricity used cost the church money. If he saw anything beginning to look shabby he would see that it was repaired immediately. If anything was not clean he would see that it was taken care of promptly. He always said the church belonged to God and we must take care to keep it in perfect order. He was a good steward of time and money giving the best to God and His church. He would not tolerate anything being done in a sloppy manner. Dr. Lindsay gave his best and he expected others to do the same.

Anonymous said...

Who's traveling with the Brunson's to Pigeon Forge next week?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Mac is calling deacons to meet him to pray Sunday night before the sermon. Can you guys PLEASE go and pray with the pastor, so we don't have to endure another one of THESE?

Anonymous said...

Pastor Lindsay would recognize Mac was the problem. Leave Lindsay out of our analogies, you hypocrite.

Anonymous said...

Watchdog you joke about the anniversary announcements, but a staff member has told me that they are changing the rules for these, only recognizing our 50+ marriage anniversaries every 5 years in stead of every year.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 10:25 - who are you calling a hypocrite?

Anonymous said...

What's with the pink izod and draped and tied sweater over the shoulders? And Mac says WD is gay?

Anonymous said...

I believe they call that particular style "metrosexual."

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Or its the "my wife told me what to wear today" style.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

at first glance the little izod thingy looked like a nipple. Wow!

Anonymous said...

WD: I like the financial breakdown you have given for the Platimum, Gold, and Bronze levels. I will give you 2 cents for the sermon that follows.

Anonymous said...

"at first glance the little izod thingy looked like a nipple. Wow!"

Well, WD, I was trying to come up with a delicate way to put that, but now that you went and threw it out there, I have to admit that as hard as I was trying not to think about it at all, I was thinking the same thing! I think it looks more like a Ralph Lauren thingy than an Izod 'gator though.

Does your wife make you dress like that, WD?

Anonymous said...

I see it coming. To silence dissenters and bloggers, Brunson will soon call for a vote of confidence from the deacons, trustees and members.

He will tell them how maligned he is by certain folks, how he is hurt, he and his family are being attacked, and his actions called to question and accountability, even his sermons are picked apart under a microscope by a handful of pastor haters, and so forth.

They will all stand up and shout, Baa,Baa,Baa. Now you go home Watchdog. He can then say, "in your face Watchdog. Go home and don't come back."

Ramesh said...

I believe they had some kind of vote of confidence during the ovation received at their 2nd anniversary. WD did say, it was politeness and the showing of class by fbcjax members.

Even if they held another show of hands or murmur of assents, it will not change the situation.

The only way, Pastor Mac Brunson can get out of this box he created, is to do the following:

- be completely open and transparent
- hold frequent public meetings, where dirty laundry is aired, with no retaliations
- roll back the bylaws changes enacted last year

The above are not so unreasonable. Pastor Mac might fear from the riff raff, but these fears are unfounded. Any labor relations expert (example: Fred Smith Sr.) will tell you, this is very reasonable. All the sheep are looking for is leaders who are honest, open, approachable, humble, who put the interests of the sheep ahead of the leaders, who are graceful, willing to admit mistakes.

You can at least follow the secular company Google's motto, "Do no harm" or "Don't be evil.". Google Code of Conduct

Of course, rather than following a secular company code of conduct, we can at least follow the Word of God.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thy Peace - let me add one more thing that needs to happen for Mac to humble himself and try to repair things with his contingent of recalcitrants:

Pigs must fly.

Ain't gonna happen.

Like saying Clinton just needs to quit being a womanizer. Clinton is what he is. You're not going to change him. He's only going to put a new face on things to the public.

Mac's view is he is being attacked for being a godly pastor. The more he is attacked, the more he believes he is in God's will. Plain and simple. He would love to exercise church discipline on recalcitrants - as he added the discipline committee to the bylaws, and mentioned it every single service - but then he realized his discipline would be blogged about. So he's just hanging on, hoping the blog doesn't grow.

But its growing.

And his people are wising up.

And Johnny Hunt will help him find a new job.

Prediction: if it gets really ugly, as in giving drops, and he can't do his "special projects", Mac will go back to SWBTS. Where he should be. He will be a great seminary professor, dean, or president.

Anonymous said...

I remember Ted Kennedy calling for a vote of confidence and getting it from the liberal state of Mass. Plus , this is a nation that is Obama crazy! So, don't expect the church to be any more astute than the world. Because the church is IN the world. The do nothing greedy pastors, and the likes of Rick Warren have led the church astray. All the while DARING any one to call them to account. I have never been able to get away with anything, I don't know how they do. I wish this church would wake up, but I don't have much hope. Look at the leaders of the church. Is it possible to find a more self serving group? If their "hero" is Brunson, then that tells you a lot. As to the church body (except the ones that get it, certainly a minority) I have heard of dumb sheep but these are truly "dumb sheep". Oh, well we had a church once. All GOOD things must pass, and has. God have pity on YOUR children!!!

Anonymous said...

So I remember the post on Smyrl's blog about Prostituting Pulpits. I wanted to make a comment, but I guess he does not allow comments on his blog. Each time I tried, I got the password is incorrect, which is odd, since I have a WordPress User and password that works just fine.

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace, I give you credit for optimism but I don't think we can look for a miracle on this one. Clouds of delusion are in the church. It only takes a short time for a church to fall once the Godly leaders are gone. And ours are GONE. It's like looking at a Ford and trying to tell yourself it's really a Rolls Royce. Even if Mac were to TRY to become humble and accountable, I wouldn't believe him. Once you get a handle on the true picture of a person not much else is believable. WD, your right about JH helping Mac find another "post", they are all in "the business" and rely on each other probably more than they rely on God. As I don't see God leading them. WD, how can you say Mac would make a good seminary dean or president? Not if you want real preachers. He would just turn out more like him for heavens sake.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Uh, I don't think Smyrl or anyone in the Brunson regime is interested in hearing from the plebe. The blog for them is just a one-way communication.

I am a fairly intelligent person, but I read Smyrl's blog and I still can't figure it out; its a masterpiece of code and confusion that only someone with a seminary education trying to impress people could come up with - but we love ya Jim! We need someone like Jerry Vines to exegesis Smyrl's words, to tell us what the Pearl is trying to say, and more importantly who he is saying it to.

These are great quotes from Smyrl that I have on my whiteboard to motivate me to live for Christ:

"The acquiescence from a sufficient text to a subjective teacher is encouraged in order to achieve the level of faith accomplished by the champion in the pulpit. "

What a blessing. Praise the Lord!

and this classic:

"If one were to Peele away their clothing of statistical validation, he would find the core of Craddock’s waning conviction over scripture’s sufficiency, which only manifests evident for 30 minutes on Sunday morning."

Amen brother Pearl!

He's another regular Oswald Chambers, or maybe even Max Lucado.

Maurilio, can you get Smyrl a book deal?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

You're right, I stand corrected. He would make a decent history professor, but in a position of seminary leadership Mac would be another Paige Patterson, only with 1/4 of the smarts and tact.

Anonymous said...

Smyrl is a pseudo intellectual. He and Brunson are full of sound and fury signifying nothing. FBC is currently full of "spin-misters". As many can tell you from experience trying to get answers from the "elitest". It certainly can be a "dizzying" experience. I would rather was my car than waste my time with any of them. At least I would accomplish something useful.

Anonymous said...

That was "wash" my car. It's difficult to eat and blog. to. But I try to multi-task. Maybe I could get a job on staff. No, house cleaning is not my forte.

Anonymous said...

WD and Readers - I just gladly sent my normal tithe and offering check (the one for this month I would send to mac and tom stimler to spend how they please) to the City Rescue Mission to help feed the poor this Thanksgiving. I believe Jesus will be pleased, as well as the Rescue Mission who "I was hungry and you fed me" serve Jesus and those he loves. If you did not get their mailings for some help, please visit their website.

Also, I was blessed to see that I still have much more money left in my bank account for me that "I get to keep" even after giving to the Lord's work.

I trust FBC Jax will be able to reduce spending enough to continue their ministries without my $1200 check this month. Perhaps God will bless you by leading you to do the same...simply giving of your blessings to help those in need.

Anonymous said...

WD - I am concerned that Jesus will be disappointed in me for giving thousands of dollars per year to "His work" at FBC Jax when in reality the money was used for the preacher man to take a lavish vacation with influential men in the congregation. What do you think? Am I "robbing God" by giving "his" money to men that I KNOW are misusing the funds?

What do your readers think?

What do Dr.Brunson's supporters think?

Thank you.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Don't worry, Mac has his bases covered.

You gave your money to Trinity, but he'll get it back.

Trinity has to pay us $750 to put up a booth at the Pastor's Conference. And if they want a slide shown in our church or a video shown at dinner at the conference, it would take THOUSANDS.

Think about how grotesque it is to sell sponsorships. The majority of organizations that would want to reach out to pastors would be non-profits, or at least Christian businessmen who ALREADY give to their church from the abundance that God blesses them with. But in Mac's economy, that ain't good enough. You need to give HIM and HIS CHURCH a piece of the action.

You "misunderestimate" ole Mac and his slick marketers.

But we're on to him now.

The question, does anybody really care?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I was reading on another forum that is discussing this perversion of our pastor's conference, and some pastor noted that it was over this precise thing...extortion of money in the church that Jesus gave an open demonstration of righteous anger towards. He drove the money changers out.

One of the things that really galled the pastors is the phrase in the "Premium Sessions" area of the pastors conference website that says:

"Take Your Ministry to the Next Level with This Year's Premium Sessions."

Yep, give us $50 on top of your registratoin fee, and you can TAKE YOUR MINISTRY TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

What level? Is that what we're about now, differentiation of "levels" of pastors.

Let's try this:

"You poor slobs who pastor a cheesy church that has only 150 members and can't afford the 50 bucks - you sit over there while we go and listen to these experts that will help us get to that next level. If you would get off your blessed assurance and grow your church, maybe next year you can join us in our premium sessions. God Love ya!"

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I really hope Maruilio purchases one of Trey's "sponsorship packages".

Hey Maurilio, we've lined your pockets for the past 3 years, can you give us some of it back by purchasing the "Platinum" level? Then Mac could bring you to the stage and introduce you to us...and you could take a dig at the Watchdog right there at the church instead of on your blog - you could right in front of the pastors and the good people at FBC Jax call the WD and his readers fundamentalists."

We'll be watching for you at the conference Maurilio! Are you going to do one of the breakouts? Will you be paying for a boothe, or is that a freebie? Will we pay you for consulting time while doing a breakout, or are you paying us? It gets so darn confusing.

Anonymous said...

"You poor slobs who pastor a cheesy church that has only 150 members and can't afford the 50 bucks - you sit over there while we go and listen to these experts that will help us get to that next level. If you would get off your blessed assurance and grow your church, maybe next year you can join us in our premium sessions. God Love ya!"


This pretty much says it all. How anyone can continue to attend this church while being directed, not pastored by this man and his suck ups is beyond me. This is the exact reason why so many people stay away from the church. I myself have had many personal battles on whether I need to go to church at all when I see stuff like this, it just reinforces it. Small churches seem to be able to provide the true direction a person needs.

Anonymous said...

This is relative to the October 10 Post entitled "What to Do After Asking for $1 Million.

You open the books and accounting records and explain how, when and where the monies were spent.

I cannot believe those in administration did not know in advance the condition of certain areas of the buildings and equipment. I'm sure the money was appropriated but spent on diversions appropriated and promoted by T. Brunson.

Surely the directors, deacons and/or trustees were not so blindsided they could not discern the importance of maintenance and repairs, and did not adjudicate portions of the budget to maintain clean, healthy and up-to-date facilities.

Why have to ask for emergency
finances, especially of this magnitude. Surely they were more astute!

What other than budgeted items were used to deplete the budget?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Where was the money spent? Well, Mac admitted that we "overspent" on missions. You can hear it in the hyperlinked quote where Mac was preaching in the 2007-2008 fiscal year.

But Mac has also said that our giving was on track. So we gave the money requested.

But apparently they either budgeted poorly, or they misspent on other items (like on missions).

Also, you can't forget that Mac held a "special offering" on Easter Sunday to raise $180,000 to put himself back on national TV - that was a top priority to Mac. Not the poor, not the babies in the preschool building that might be affected by a leaking mildewing building. By God we HAVE to get our preacher back on nationwide TV. Let's be honest FBC Jax. Mac is no Jerry Vines, no Homer Lindsay, no Adrian Rogers...no [you fill in the blank]. He is an average preacher at best. He doesn't exegesis the scripture on Sunday mornings, he's abusive towards his listeners...any body other than the Kool Aid drinkers can say the man is not worth nationwide preaching audiences. That's OK, not everyone is suited to be on national TV. But Mac is not in the big leagues unless he was, so it was a priority.

And then he held his hand out for a million bucks as an "emergency". Emergency my hind end. It reminds me of the saying: "Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." We gave the money, he spent it on other priorities.

After Mac preached his legalistic view of tithing for three weeks, pulled out some quotes from Homer Sr to tell us that he made tithers stand once in 1969, and that in 1946 he borrowed money for the 6th grade building, Mac quickly bolted for a two week vacation including a tour of Italy with our finance committee chairman. In these tough economic times when people were asked to give sacrificially to make up for our leadership's poor financial management, Mac like an elitist takes a vacation overseas.

But we can overlook all of that because he's such a humble, gentle, loving pastor to his sheep. Not.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And tomorrow night Mac will have to venture into that dark, God-forsaken territory to risk his life and safety to spread the gospel to a people group that barely has heard of Jesus....yep, you got it...Pigeon Forge, TN.

Ain't God good? All the time!

Tell Maurilio we said Hi, Mac. If you meet with him we'll read about it in his Twitter.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Sheep - be reading for a real beating tomorrow. He has to let us know how we haven't given enough for the buildings, and that our committments are way below where they need to be.

Those on the first two rows, you might want to wear a rain coat when it gets hot and heavy.

And Kool Aid will be available in the vestibule.

Anonymous said...

I just still cannot believe those in administration and decision making were not aware of the critical conditions concerning maintenance, peeling wall paper, etc. and the odors and unkempt conditions in some bathrooms.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Well, let's just say that if the water was leaking into his 3000 square foot office suite, on top of his 15 foot high book cases in his study, it would have been taken care of, by say, 4:30 pm. No special offering. No delay. But if its the kids of the plebe, who cares? I mean we're all a bunch of legalist recalcitrants anyways.

And if "Baby Broc" were over there, it would have been taken care of for sure.

But not generic "Baby Plebe". Let them eat cake.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

And I've just been informed that the word exegesis is exegete in its proper verb form.

Sorry readers, I was trying to be Jim Smyrl there for a minute and impress everyone with a fancy word.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

One of the blog's new features will be our "Smyrl's of Wisdom" that we'll update each week. These will be quotes from the musings of Jim Smyrl that will be sure to bless your socks off.

Anonymous said...

Another post,"Is the Iron Still Swimming."

It most Heavenly Father is, for those who are spiritually and physically conditioned to reach it.

Pastor Brunson does not qualify under the umbrella of either requirements.

New to the blog and am now just going through through the earliest ones. Same story, same administrative glorification of an inept leader.

oc said...

"He's another regular Oswald Chambers, or maybe even Max Lucado."

No. He's not. As far above my intelligence as Chambers and Lucado move, I still understand them. It must be a spiritual thing.

Just sayin'.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

OC...for your reading enjoyment we have a new feature at the blog "Smyrls of Wisdom" where we can look at some of the shall we say "deeper" musings of our Executive Pastor of Education.

Anonymous said...

That photo of Mac with his jacket around his shoulders does not cover the below the waist and exposing his hugh waistline is a poor example and a contradiction of his Healthy Pastors (spiritually and physical) amd a contradiction of reality.

Anonymous said...

I want Jesus the center of our lifestyles, I want Jesus proclaimed as the Lord of Lords, I want respect of the Holy Spirit, I want to rid our church of branding the sheep, I want the pastor to refrain and object to nepotism in any form. I want my pastor to be an ambassador for Christ, not man or self, I want a humble, sincere pastor who leads a simple, honest life without trappings of
the worldly economics.

These are simple, easily effective means to relate to a caring Christ driven congregation.

Do you possess these simple, God granted given gifts of those truly chosen of God? Then proove it and practice it.

Anonymous said...

Mac, Trey and Debbie are predators, not in the sense of Gilyard but attributes of a Tammie Fay and Jim Baker regime. Their guru and behind the scenes is non other than Amirilio. His influence if far reaching, and so indiscriminate you will never know until it is too late for FBC Jax.

Anonymous said...

Smyrl of Wisdom for Week of October 19th:

"Men who fervently claim themselves as inerrantists are selling out their call to exposition for an experiential tale of their triumphs and trials. In an Osteenish fashion their proclamation never reaches beyond the limits of the context in which they succeed. "

HUH???? Don't know whether to agree with him or call him a liar :)

Ramesh said...

I would like to say couple of positive things about the church service today morning. It was wonderful to see and hear the Choir, though they were singing couple of "modern" songs/hymns. Pastor Brunson's sermon was clear, though he made couple of remarks about people who having accepted the Lord's salvation can live in "sin" or tearing down the church. I will have to wait for the exact quotes, after fbcjax posts the sermons.

But on the whole, I though it was a good sermon. The Brunson's seemed like normal couple, with ordinary experiences (airport). I do have to agree with him, that he does make an effort in the sermons. He does perspire and he is forceful in his delivery.

My earlier comments about, fbcjax trying to reconcile the differences ... I just found out today, that it has been tried at BBC (Bellevue Baptist Church). There SG (Steve Gaines) did some really terrible things, forestalling discussions ... Not good. Same might happen here, if tried. Here is the link to the comments, where I found out about it:

Read the last two comments by all2jesus and by gmommy

For some reason, the links to comments is not working well for New BBC Open Forum.

Here are clipped comments of all2jesus:
"I didn't run away from Bellevue. Bellevue ran away from me by choosing to ignore sin in the camp. Serious concerns were raised by respected members of the congregation and deacon body and every attempt to seek an honest, forthright inquiry was rebuffed or scuttled. Those issues remain unaddressed to this day and members who persisted in asking questions were told "Find yourself another church." That's exactly what many did, myself included. We were no longer welcome.

I do not believe remaining at Bellevue is the mark of being lost. If you are honestly working to correct the abuses of the leadership, bravo. I suspect, though, you've simply decided to get happy. I invariably encounter this attitude whenever I meet old friends who are still there, even those who had been incensed by what was going on. "Oh, it's getting better. Steve's better now. He went to Israel and came back a changed man." I just have one question: Did he come back a repentant man? Did he confess and seek the church's forgiveness for his repeated lying? His many abuses of the flock? His failure to protect them from a known child molester?

Anyway, the clips I've seen lately look just like the old arrogant, boastful, sheep-beating Steve to me. I don't know why anyone would want to subject themselves or their family to that, even without Achan's loot under the carpet."

Here are clipped comments of gmommy:
"I have no intentions of ever coming back to BBC.
If you single handedly get all the leaders to admit to all they did wrong and Steve stands in the pulpit with quivering lip and apologizes....I left my church of 25 years forever the day the business meeting was shut down and the mic was turned off.

That day a member was left standing at the mic...who Steve watched walk down the stairs from the balcony but passed by without so much as a nod, and joked about at the seminary the next week.

The Roberts Rules we took the time to learn were not followed by leadership, and the Parlimentarian we hired so we could conduct ourselves properly within that meeting made no difference.
(Where was their big SBC Palimentarian the next year anyway????)
I don't trust anyone in leadership at BBC to be honest much less anything else. I personally don't trust the leadership in the SBC either so I am gone!!!!!"

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thy Peace - I disagree with you on Brunson.

He is a performer. That was a great theatric performance, but not a sermon.

He uses scripture as a sideline to make his points. He hardly ever starts with scripture. The starting point of his sermons are his own points, and presumptions about his audience that need to be established for his points to make any sense. He uses scripture to back up his own points that he wants to make. Anyone that has sat for decades listening to a Holy Spirit led Bible expositor preach the Word verse by verse knows that what Mac does is completely different from expository preaching. Good for tickling ears, and his antics and emotions and yelling and history, and self-serving personal stories make for great drama and theatrics, but not much more. Its a mayonnaise sandwich...whereas bible exposition sermons are a double decker angus beef burger with mayo, onion, lettuce and tomatoe.

He is a "spiritual elitist". He honestly believes he is so superior to other Christians in understanding of God's word. Very similar to what the Catholic clergy believed for centuries - the plebe are too stupid to understand the Word of God. Mac said today (I'm paraphrasing - will listen again when its on the Internet) "Why do I go into this Greek? Because its IMPORTANT! You need to understand the Greek and the verb tense." To use Mac's words: "That's a lie outta hell".

As a Christian I don't need to understand Greek for the Lord to speak to me through his Word, and I sure as...heck...don't need Mac to tell ME what it means in Greek. OK, tell me in Greek, and explain the verb tense. But don't piously tell me I need our Greek explanations to understand what God is saying...although I will admit I need someone to explain what Jim Smyrl's blog entries mean.

And spare me the personal stories of he and Deb running through the airport. And if he's traveling to preach somewhere, why is she going with him? Who is paying her airfare? She's an employee of the church, doesn't she have responsibilities at the church? And is there any week he can stay and pastor his church? Two weeks vacation, another trip his first week back, and this week 4 days at Pigeon Forge. And who is it that wants to hear this guy preach? If he didn't have "First Baptist Jacksonville" under his name, he would be forced to stay in town and pastor his sheep.

And lastly...I don't believe for a second that Mac believes what he preached today. He preaches that because he knows its standard fare for baptist churches: "security of the believer". Mac is a legalistic, manipulator of the sheep. We've been fed regular doses of how God is going to zap us, that if we don't serve as Mac thinks we could serve we're "sinning against the Holy Spirit"...if we don't give at leat 10% in obedience to the old testament to Mac's church we will not receive God's blessings...and on and on. Mac doesn't preach a loving, forgiving God, he preaches enough to get someone saved, then once he has you he preaches legalism...obedience to God out of fear of God taking wrath out on us. That's the real Mac Brunson. Watch and see what he preaches tonight.

Ramesh said...

Well said, WD. Your arguments are persuasive. Now I wonder about the style of preaching Pastor Mac does. Is this style of preaching practiced elsewhere? Is this being taught at the seminaries? Or is this being advocated by Maurilio, by his sermon polishing?

From listening to David Allen and Jerry Vines, their delivery of sermons seems to be very different to Pastor Mac's.

Now that one sermon Pastor Mac made on homosexuality, that was preached well. He stuck to the Word of God and he did not judge anyone. He seemed very kind and gentle in that sermon.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

One more painful thought: if there are people in our church that doubt their salvation as much as Mac said today there are, let me let you all in on a little secret: ITS MACS OWN DOING. I mean a person who is not well grounded in scripture hearing Mac preach would wonder if they truly are Christian...if I don't tithe, am I a Christian? If I am just sitting in the pew and not serving now in any capacity, am I "sinning against the Holy Spirit" as Mac accused us? If I believe that God is loving and would never zap me, but then Mac says he might zap me, does God really love me? Mac said that I'm in a financial mess because I'm not tithing, so maybe God is out to get me. Then just a few weeks ago we all heard Mac say that God is working behind the scenes to see how high he can get gas prices and cause the stock market to crash to harm us. Mac preaches a very unbalanced view of God's love/mercy/grace versus God's wrath and judgement.

So its no wonder that people in our church MIGHT doubt their salvation.

Why does Mac do this? I don't know. But we do know that since he has come here he has viewed our congregation as being legalistic, and as he described us to his North Carolina friends earlier this year, we are "a hotbed of legalism; we have our lists and no one has a real relationship with Jesus Christ." Mac him characterized our church to NC pastors as people who believe they are saved when in fact we, according to Mac, ARE NOT SAVED!!! So if that kind of junk doesn't cause people to doubt their salvation, what does? He uses God's wrath and judgement to scare his people, and those of us that are very secure in our faith don't let him shake us...but new Christians might very well be confused over Mac's preaching that unless they measure up to Mac's standards, agree with his plans, pray when he wants us to pray, bring our bibles like he says, stay seated for once like he wants....then maybe we just don't measure up at all in God's eyes.

And God forbid they ever get directed to Jim's blog...that would create massive confusion among the brethren.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Thy Peace - that person Mac told about in Dallas that week after week was crying because they thought they were losing their salvation. I'm not sure the point of the story. I don't think we've met very many people like that. She may have been mentally deficient, or extremely guilty over something in her life. I don't know.

But the problem in our churches that I see is NOT that people are overly worried that they are losing their salvation...but the problem in the day of the seeker friendly church is that there are people who truly haven't repented of their sin and are LOST when they think they are SAVED. Look at Darrel Gilyard. Was he worried about losing his salvation? Of course not....Bob Gray? No. I'll take 100 people who are worried they'll lose their salvation over one nut who is lost and uses their salvation as a license to sin.

Anonymous said...

Was there anything new presented on the budget this morning?

Anonymous said...

Words from Charles Spurgeon:

"when you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it; he keeps a very little stock of it within."


"It is a great pit when the one who should be the head figure is a mere figure head."

Any parallels or comparisons here?

Anonymous said...

The Greek!!The Greek is a DEAD language. No one uses it. All airline pilots have to know ENGLISH. The English language cannot be beaten when it comes to Bible interpretation. The Greek does not shine any more light on the Bibilical text than Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, or German. Otherwise we would be standing in awe of someone who was fluent in those languages. Have you ever heard of someone walking the church aisle confessing Christ because he/she heard some Greek which turned them to the Lord?

Don't get me wrong, I think Greek is good if you want a cosmopolitan pedigree in romance languages or transferring the Greek into English into the university computer, but just having a knowledge of Greek does not a preacher or evangelist make. The more I hear about Greek the more I am reminded that the Bible in English is perfect to lead anyone to the Lord. It has been translated into over a hundred dialects by the Wycliff translators and wasn't it the English who sent out missionaries first to Africa, Burma, India, and to the Far East? I do not recall any Greek evangelising the world, no, it was from England the same place where time starts. Guess what banana means in Greek?...Banana!!!!

Anonymous said...

Remember WD,

There is no FINANCE COMMITTEE. The admin controls the finances. Shure, finances are discussed with a group of deacons but the exact church finances are hid from the men. In the future only the staff admin will know the true finances. These GOOD OLE BOYS[COOL AID DRINKERS] are living in a dream world. They think they are important but in reality Brunson only tells them what he wants them to know and to do.

Sleep on sheep!

By the way most of these men are your big tithers. Brunson knows exactly what they give. Unlike Dr Lindsay, who never knew what any church member gave, Mac keeps a list of everyones giving. It is a matter of good business.

Anonymous said...

WD good points you have made this afternoon. The reason some preachers desire to teach you can lose your salvation is because they want to be the "authority". It puffs up their ego and they love the attention they get by some in their congregation. They adore the praise of Men rather than JESUS.

Dr Charles Stanley has a book called Eternal Security. It is the best book on eternal security I have read. Every Baptist needs to read it as it puts these Apostates in their place when it comes to Bible knowledge. I highly recommend it and Dr Stanley has no clue as to who I am. Thanks again WD, every day we get more enlightened.

Note to Thy Peace: Keep reading your Bible and taking part in this blog. You do not need any man to teach you the Bible. The Holy Spirit teaches you through His Word. When the work of Jesus was finished, He said He would send us another Comforter and He (the Comforter) would guide you into all truth. Notice those words (all truth). He, the Holy Spirit, is your guide, not your father, your mother, brother, or sister, or anyone else. When you go with JESUS CHRIST you don't have to listen to anyone. Another reason; these others are HUMAN and all have come short of the glory of God. They make bad decisions on every level just like you and I. Thats why experience is a good teacher. You only need to touch a hot stove once. Once you have been burned you won't do that again. Just like being betrayed by a family member or one of your best friends...you can't trust them again or if you do you make certain they are telling you the absolute truth. The truth does set you free. Free from lying, free from manipulation, free from further disappointment and especially free from the penalty of sin they may have brought into your midst. Bless your heart and may God give you spiritual discenment as it is more precious than silver or gold.