2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Tuesday, November 11, 2008

Think Twice Before "Volunteering" for Pastors' Conference

FBC Jax Church - you will see on the church website that Mac and Maurilio are asking for volunteers for the Pastor's conference next February.

Think twice before you volunteer again this year.

Before Brunson arrived, the Pastor's Conference was held at our church and coordinated by our staff and volunteers while keeping the costs low and allowing pastors from all over the world to attend.

But its a new day with Team Brunson in charge.

The conference is no longer an event hosted by our church and run by our staff and volunteers as a ministry to pastors. Mac has converted it into a marketing, fund-raising bonanza. It is an event with high registration fees, as high as other events held at public venues, and it is an event now at which advertising and marketing is sold to raise additional revenues.

How are we selling advertising and marketing space? Our church has hired a promotions firm from Atlanta, Georga, called the Conexus Group. For the 2008 PC held this year, and for the one to be held February 2009, the Conexus Group has published a "Promotions Plan" for each event and they have sold advertising packages. What do the promotions plans look like? What does it cost to buy advertising at our Pastor's Conferences? Look for yourself:

I know that one of Trey Brunson's main duties at our church is to "oversee" the Pastor's Conference, but in reality he "oversees" the promotions firm that we've hired to coordinate and sell the Pastor's Conference.

So Mac has perverted our Pastor's Conference into a whole new realm. He wants to charge large attendance fees. He wants to sell advertising space on our I-mags in the auditorium and TV ads in the dining room and print ads on the conference literature. He wants to charge Christian ministries $750 for a lousy display table and two chairs (oh, and a power strip - its all in the above promotions plans). And of course he has hired his son on paid staff to "coordinate" the event. That's fine, Mac. Make this a huge money-making venture, and use our church facilities to do it....but don't do all of this money making at our church and then ask us to donate our time for free! No one in your family has done one thing at this church unless they are paid to do it. Now you hire outside marketing and promotions firms (paid by our tithes and offerings I might add) and you want us to take vacation time and work your event. You'll even ask some of us to bake cookies....BUY THE COOKIES WITH THE ADVERTISING MONEY. Trey, you might want to contact Conexus and see if the can coordinate some event staffers to work the event for you.

A few other things to think about as you consider volunteering:

1. Last year we thought how wonderful it was that Jim Caviezel came to give a testimony during the Sunday morning service. As you recall he was interviewed by Mac Brunson on stage about a new "Word of Promise" audio bible product that featured well known actors like Caviezel. Well, after we look at the promotions plan, we see that this was not a carefully chosen testimony by our staff to bless the people at the conference...no, it was a PURCHASED ADVERTISEMENT to peddle the Word of Promise, sold for the "platinum package" price of $15,000! Did you ever think we would see the day when our pastor would interview someone who paid to be on our platform to promote their product? Can you say "Robert Schuller"?

2. Last year during the conference you might recall when Mac brought Trey to the platform to pray before Dr. David Jeremiah preached - Mac bragged on his son and in a raw display of brazen nepotism Mac and credited Trey with "raising over $100,000" to offset the costs of the conference, and that this amount was "more than twice his salary" as though his salary had any relevance. For the longest time after that I always wondered, how did Trey "raise" $100,000? Well, now that we know the event was "promoted" by the Conexus Group, that $100,000 must be the amount in promotional fees collected...not through Trey's efforts however, but through the efforts of a paid promotions firm. But it helps to say Trey did it, in front of thousands of potential employers.

3. And don't think Mac appreciates your volunteer effort, or that your efforts are crucial to the success of the event. No, the only thing that is essential in Mac's mind is the genius and hard work of his son. When he was interviewed by the website SBC Today during the conference, in another demonstration of nepotism, Mac said "My son ran this whole conference"and the "...whole conference was on his shoulders." You can listen to this quote and other excerpts from this SBC Today interview that you will find very interesting (like his comments about women being more sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and Gilyard as the "pastor down the street"), in the flash below.

So those of you pastors that are coming...just want you to know that not only are you paying a hefty registration fee to come here, but your mere presence here represents a valuable marketing unit that is being SOLD by the Conexus Group to raise additional monies through advertising. We hope you enjoy being marketed when you're here!

Now I do realize that other Christian events are promoted in a similar fashion...and that even the registration fees are not out of line with other multi-day Christian conferences. But this is held not at a public venue, but its held AT OUR CHURCH. There are obvious costs involved - utilities, security, housekeeping, A/V staff, etc. But there is no rent charged for the facility, and volunteers from the church staff it. So we take in over a million in revenue from the registrations, and another $100k+ from the promotions. We have to pay the speakers, yes, but one has to wonder where the rest of the money is going. The costs and revenues for this event are not reflected on our church financials, so we just don't know. While I trusted Vines under this scenario, I certainly don't trust Team Brunson and their band of out-of-town marketers and promoters.

So let Mac and his son and the A-Group and the Conexus Group use our facilties for their event. Nothing we can do about that.

But save your vacation time this year and send them a message that you don't like how they have perverted our Pastor's Conference.

And please, let them buy their own cookies and snacks for the event.


Ramesh said...

Conexus Group: About Us"

"What Others Are Saying

Conexus is so easy to work with, and we feel like we’ve known you a long time. Thank you for all you do for us!
~ LaVon Rigdon
Event Coordinator, FBC Jacksonville"

Thank ALL Fbcjax officers, for all that you do for us.

Ramesh said...

It's interesting to note that Tim Rogers who interviewed Pastor Mac for SBC Today, also penned this article. Here is the post by Pastor Wade on Tim Rogers article on Sheri Klouda's lawsuit.

Christian Lawsuits and Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood

"The good folks over at SBC Today seem to have a great deal to say about Christians and the evil of going to court to settle disputes. Whereas a March 12 SBC Today article stayed online for nearly a week without a single comment, a March 11 post about the Sheri Klouda lawsuit, written by Mr. Tim Rogers, has received over 140 comments. In a comment to that particular post, written with the same dogmatic style that characterizes the black and white nature of most of the writers over at SBC Today, Mr. Roger's makes this statement:

No Christian should be involved in taking another Christian to court.

A few in the comment section challenged the dogmatism of the comment, but many others agreed. I think this kind of thinking - and writing - illustrates one of the reasons there may be polarization of positions in the SBC. Asolute words such as 'never' or 'always' - or absolute phrases like 'no Christian' or 'every Christian' - leave no room for genuine reflection and dialogue.


It would seem to me before anyone assigns evil to Dr. Sheri Klouda, that a few questions ought to be asked:

(1). Were there attempts to reconcile this situation through third-parties prior to the lawsuit being filed?
(2). Was there an unwillingness on one party to either return phone calls or answer emails when a resolution was being sought?
(3). Is it Sheri Klouda's desire to become rich through this lawsuit, or are there other motives for her actions - motives that involves other people besides herself?
(4). From a human perspective, is the cause of gospel hindered more by a bright Hebrew professor being unable to teach the Hebrew language to men who will exegete Scriptures (the job for which she was trained), or is the cause of the gospel hindered more by the courts settling a dispute that one party may have been unwilling to resolve?
(5). Is this a small matter?

I would encourage Mr. Roger's neighborhood to think through the above questions and ask themselves if they themselves have sought the answers - or know someone who has. And, finally, this Klouda issue may be a good lesson for us all. The world is not always a black and white horizon - there are sometimes gray cloud(a)s. And, unfortunately, to entrench within a black and white ditch is one of the reasons resolution may often be hard to obtain."

I am certain Tim Rogers is a good man and pastor, but the questioning is so soft.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Newsflash to Maurilio:

I don't recommend Twittering for your Christian clients to see that you're watching "Blades of Glory" with your teenage sons.

From Maurilio's twitters:

"Getting ready to watch "Blades of Glory" with my boys. Gwen is protesting, but we have enough points built up from watching Jane Austin

"Blades of Glory was a bust and I had to cash in some "husband chips" for that. Trying to erase the mental pic of Will Farrell shirtless.

Just another demonstration of the lack of discernment among those who are making decisions at FBC Jax. I'm no fuddy duddy when it comes to movies...but my gosh I'm not going to twitter to the world about the pro-gay, pro-sex movies I watch with my teenagers (if by some chance I did)...especially if I make my living consulting with churches on how to run their operations.

Just sayin'.

But Maurilio you do have a good sense of humor, and I enjoy your twitters. And I'm sure you're a great guy, I just wish my pastor didn't spend money on church marketing with your firm when we have so many talented people on staff and in our church.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I'd like to splice a few of Mac's angry blurbs...like the one: "When you become a member of the church, you're expected to tithe...you say you didn't know that. Well you know it now."

How does that message parallel into the Starbucks marketing strategy?

"Hey you jerk, I'm glad you came to buy my coffee but you need to come in here and buy our coffee three days a week and pay our high prices, and I don't care if you like the coffee or not. GOT THAT?"

Hmmm...I might go get my next cup of joe down at Panera.

These poor staff members must be perplexed. They're trying to buy into Mac's marketing strategy, but then they watch him act like a spoiled rotten, angry, pompous jerk from the pulpit. I don't care how great the "experience" is at FBC Jax, when you see a preacher behave like Mac has in the pulpit, you definitely go running for the door.

Ramesh said...

WD, what happened to Starbucks is this. It was started by people who were simply into selling coffee and some good ambience. That is basically letting the customers be, do work and drink more coffee.

Then the management changed. They brought in MBA's and Marketers, they started pushing sandwiches and other non-essentials besides coffee. And the sad thing was, coffee got sidelined.

Hence, you see the result to the link you posted of their financial results.

That is why, it always helps for a company to stick to fundamentals and not stray beyond that.

They tried this to Dell.com. Same results.

Now they are attempting to move back to fundamentals.

Can we say the same for fbcjax?

And the irony is fbcjax is for Our Lord Jesus Christ and not into selling anything. Especially for money in return.

Anonymous said...

Who brought Conexus into the FBCJ picture? And when?

Anonymous said...

I believe I could handle Trey's job if I had unlimited sources doing the work behind the scenes.

Anonymous said...

Who is privileged to see the financial details at FBCJ? Surely some astute, concerned persons should be raising questions about what happens to every penny spent and collected at FBCJ. Any organization so loosely controlled opens up all kinds of avenues for misuse or abuse. Never would happen in a company I would be in charge of. Actually, I would welcome accountability, thus if tempted to go astray, someone, somehow would deal with me accordingly. Makes for a clean conscious.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 11:23 - don't know, but Conexus was on the scene as early as 2006, since they handled the promotions for the Feb 2007 Pastor's Conference!

Anonymous said...

Most everyone now knows about the A-Group. How many were aware of the outfit Conexus? Very few, I suppose. Didn't want it out that the church and staff could not handle the conference, or was it that they could and have been for years but someone decided to handle things differently.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I believe Tom Stimler is the man who heads up the "finance committee", if indeed we still have one after the bylaw changes that were made in December.

And Mac says we're audited each year, and that two people have to review every check.

Apparently, according to Mac, there is a high level of financial accountability.

But not just anyone can view detailed financial records.

it is written said...

Dr.Dog maybe the two people who reveiw each check written for all FBC Jax expenditures are Mac and Debbie.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

I like the idea of having volunteers working the PC. It brings a true sense of service and sacrifice to the pastors that will be ministered to.

The two people reviewing each check are Mr. IRS and Mr. Finance Committee.

Anonymous said...

Who is LaVon Rigdon? Is she also the Director of Special Projects?

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

You said:

"...to the pastors that will be ministered to."

Did you mean to say:

"...to the pastors that will be marketed to."

Anonymous said...

So, if a drunk driver slams into my car and injures my wife and children, I can not sue the drunk driver for damages according to the Bible and according to Mac Brunson and Paige Patterson.

Or let me ask it this way, if I slander the fat bastard in the pulpit, can he NOT sue me for damages for defamation? Let me know since if he can't sue me, I think I might have a few more things to say about the pathetic, bald, fat, spiritually immature, charlatan who gets no respect except what he can get from gullible sheep based on his job as senior pastor at a large, formerly respected, church.

Anonymous said...

anon12:09 - so as long as Tom Stimler says its okay, and it is not in violation of any IRS regulations, then it is okay and right and moral and Christ-like?

You, too, are pathetic! Now I know why you don't post your name.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

Mr. Anonymous 1:38pm, if I told you my name, everyone on this blog would be shocked.
If our financial operations are in accordance with the Word and the Incoherent Retard Service, then yes, it's okay. And I believe Mr. Stimler is following the protocol found in the Word.

And Dr. Dog, I meant what I said.

Anonymous said...

Is there anything else that can be done at FBCJ to embarass this church? Is there any doubt left that this is NO LONGER a church? The lack of ANY spiritual preaching, teaching, or just the way the church is run in general should tell any and everyone the true condition that this ORGANIZATION is in. The larger question to me is, where are the former "spiritual leaders", that were there under previous pastors? Why have they sold out, and how do they justify their doing so? They were either playing a role then or they are playing a role now. You can't agree with the way things were formerly (spiritual and Christ centered), and agree with the business, marketed, CEO run organization that is now being run "For Profit". And as a business opportunity for the pastor and his family. Lie to the people, lie to each other, but you can't lie to God. Jesus is NOT in charge of this organization now. How did the former church fall so fast? I guess a lot of people were just playing the role (deacons, trustees, members). If leadership and members continue to allow this debacle to go on as is, unchecked, then they become contributors to the "downfall",through their complacency. There is more than enough guilt to go around. Take a stand someone, others may join in trying to save this church(now organization). No wonder Jesus will say "Depart from Me, I never knew you".

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

I don't know Tom Stimler, but if he's good enough friends with and close enough to go on vacations to Europe with Mac Brunson, it makes me a bit nervous that he is the guard of the money.

Nuff said.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Readers: VERY interesting developments at FBC Ocala (Florida). The new pastor that has been there about a year, hired after the retirement of a very respected long-term pastor, just fired his entire staff on Sunday. According to news reports (click here) the six associate pastors that were fired documented how the new pastor has been "dishonest", "manipulative", and "untrustworthy" and sent a letter to the elders and deacons. The pastor returned the favor and fired them.

I have no idea what the truth is here, but it sure sounds eerily familiar....at the bottom of the article you can click on "comments" and there is some discussion on the topic that sheds a bit more light. So far the commenters seem to be evenly split between those that say the new pastor is great, just what we needed, and those that say the fired men were right and are very well respected and should be believed. Hmmmm....

Ramesh said...

Just some thoughts.

I do not hate Pastor Mac or Pastor Smyrl or anyone else.

When I found out about what happened Sheri Klouda, I got very emotional and began a deep dislike for PP. But as I read my bible and The Word of God convicts me, I am discovering there is a difference from hating a man/woman and hating their actions.

So I am learning to separate their actions from the person. That is why, I think it's good to question someone's actions, but not hate a person.

I am slowly coming to accept who PP is and why he does what he does.

This is the same reasoning I am using for the fbcjax leadership. I think they are wrong and misguided, but they are allowed to make mistakes. The only sad thing here is, it affects the church.

I am also discovering that, when I hate someone, I can not seem to pray for that person. It looks like, lot of Christian teachings are double edged as in a sword. It cuts both ways. If I hate someone, I am finding out that, it destroys me too.

It's almost like trying to cure a person, but we end up killing that person.

I do not have the answers here. Only what I am attempting to practice, though I am not good at it.

I sincerely pray for Our Lord Jesus Christ's Mercy and Peace to fill the hearts of ALL the fbcjax church members.

I would like to leave a link to this article by Debbie Kaufman:

A Mighty Fortress Is Our God

"Luther said:

“After theology, there is nothing that can be placed on a level with music. It drives out the devil and makes people cheerful. It is a gift that God gave to birds and to men. We need to remove hymn singing from the domain of monks and priests and set the laity to singing. By the singing of hymns the laity can publicly express their love to the Almighty God.”"

Anonymous said...

Watchdog, you missed the part about the Conexus group services where, for a fee and sponsorship, you can have snacks, cookies and other goodies to pass out during the conference. No need for home-baked goodies.

This can be verified through their website.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

Watchdog, thanks for posting the info about FBC Ocala. After reading the article, I have come to the conclusion that the six pastors did the right thing when filing the letter of complaint. But, when it came down to meeting with the personnel committee, they failed to defend their assertions and this ultimately got them fired. If you are going to complain and bring to question the actions of a pastor so much as to receive legal advice and filing a letter of complaint to a personnel committee, you should at least be willing to defend yourself and your rights as an individual when being questioned about your assertions. Those six pastors did the wrong thing when they skipped out on the individual meetings. Firing them, in my utmost and humble opinion, was the right thing to do. Not because of their poor decision making when it came to meeting with the personnel committee but also because of their low level of character and integrity and inadequate devotion to their calling.

Anonymous said...

Anon12:09 a.m. - we may not be as shocked as you think, judging from the indefensible actions you have tried to defend.

Also, notice that big "IF" you used in your post. From what I have seen, operations are not in accordance with the Word, though they may be legal. And since when is "what is legal" the moral compass of the FBC of Jax? It is legal for Mac and Honey to take it all for themselves if "Mr. Stimler" approves it, is it not? And Mr. Stimler has an obligation under the "protocol" of the Word to be a wise and faithful steward of the Lord's money. Perhaps he has come to his position FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS, yet he signs off on expenditures that the congregation would oppose if they knew where the money was going. WD has detailed many of these.

How can Tom Stimler stand by and do nothing, while taking personal vacations with the pastor and yet you believe he is following God's word. If you really believe this, let's get the expenditures out in the open, or at least made available at the library like those by-laws were. But whether I know who you are or not, you and I both know there is NO WAY that could ever happen without a full blown revolt of the faithful members who give their millions each month.

Ramesh said...

"Mr. Anonymous 1:38pm, if I told you my name, everyone on this blog would be shocked."

If you are not J.S. then are you Trey Brunson? But you seem to have to J.S. vocabulary. Unless you and J.S. are sharing Anon 12:09am header in the comments.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09

Your words about the 6 pastors:

"but also because of their low level of character and integrity and inadequate devotion to their calling."

So you know these guys personally huh. Seems like you just slandered them openly, without knowing the facts, just your personal twist as to what truly happened. I call that hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 12:09

You said about the 6 pastors: "when it came down to meeting with the personnel committee, they failed to defend their assertions and this ultimately got them fired."

Personnel Committee = firing squad, same as FBCJax. Don't blame them, I would not have gone either.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am said about the pastor's conference:

"I like the idea of having volunteers working the PC. It brings a true sense of service and sacrifice to the pastors that will be ministered to."

As of today, I personally know at least one name that will not volunteer for the first time in 5 years. But I am confident Anon 12:09 has someone to replace this dead weight.

As moms say, good job!

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09; one thing you will realize if you read this blog long is the poster and his band of merry bloggers for the most part have no interest in anything that does not accuse Mac Brunson, the Brunson family, people who hang around with Mac Brunson, or call for his dismissal as pastor. Therefore, when you calmly explain why you have a different viewpoint and give reasons for it, you are attacked because you don't subscribe to their thought process. There used to be people who would reasonably disagree but after realizing there was no use carrying on in an intelligent conversation, and what this blogs mission was all about, they left. Now you are left with a bunch of like minded individuals who have vendettas against the church leadership, purpose driven church movements, and anything else that they can blame the pastor for.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:57

Your words about the people participating in this blog:

"a bunch of like minded individuals who have vendettas against the church leadership, purpose driven church movements."

You said it: PURPOSE DRIVEN!!!!!
You left to rest any previous doubts.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

Anon 3:17pm:
You wrote this:

"but also because of their low level of character and integrity and inadequate devotion to their calling."

So you know these guys personally huh. Seems like you just slandered them openly, without knowing the facts, just your personal twist as to what truly happened. I call that hypocrisy.

I do not know them personally but their actions speak loudly on their behalf. Taking cheap shots at a pastor by filing a complaint but refusing to show up to a meeting is nothing short of displaying a very shallow measure of integrity. It takes a real man to stand behind his word and obviously these six pastors have fallen short of doing so. So anon, I will not apologize and I have not slandered them openly. I have expressed the truth about the situation, not hypocrisy. If that bothers you and you are offended, then so be it. But you shouldn't have a problem with slandering and twisting things. Isn't that how the Watchdog conducts this blog?

Secondly, about the firing squad. The pastors were still fired even though they did not meet with the personnel committee. But if that committee is perceived as the firing squad, why write a letter to them in the first place? Regardless, stand behind your words and actions and act like a man. At least exhibit some sort of decency and backbone and show up to the meeting. Perhaps, it would have helped their case.

And as to my identity; I am not J.S. nor am I Trey Brunson. But I'm glad to read that I come across as an intelligent individual with an extensive vocabulary. For now, I will not release my identity although I'm sure the Watchdog knows by now who I am. In the meantime, Happy Blogging and Happy Veterans Day.

Anonymous said...

Left to doubt anything about what? My identity? If so, please share. If you think I was equating FBC Jax to a purpose driven church, I was not doing so andyou would fall into the apparent personal vendetta against them I was referring to. I am basing that off the ranting I have seen in the comments section about Purpose Driven Churches in general.

Anonymous said...

A client had this to say about the promotional and marketing team mentioned at the beginning of this post. "Conexus adds creative value AND VALUABLE REVENUE TO THE BOTTOM LINE."

"Bottom line" talk associated with corporate America, not FBCJ, until now.

it is written said...

Anon 12:09 states:::"I do not know them personally but their actions speak loudly on their behalf. Taking cheap shots at a pastor" Ditto for a pastor(Brunson)who takes cheap shots at his congregation besides taking a boat load of their money.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 12:09 - are you D?

If so, welcome back. Nice to have you here again.

About your assessment of the men in Ocala that you are passing judgement on and you know ZERO of the circumstances at the church. For all you know, there are allegations of sexual misconduct or sexual harrassment. So while we might talk about the situation there, I think it inappropriate to draw conclusions when we know ZERO about what is happening at the church.

Having said that:

These men did EXACTLY what you want people at FBC Jax like myself to do...come out, and put our name out there so everyone knows who we are. Go see the pastor we're told. Go talk to the trustees. Call the president of the deacons. OK. You say that anonymity means no credibility. Fair enough. But these men did come out. They stated their objections to what the pastor is doing to the church. Gave proof in writing of their allegations. But that wasn't enough apparently.

OK, let's assume the firings are justifed. Insubordination. They didn't submit to the prescribed process for airing griefs about the pastor. I'll grant you that for argument's sake. Fire the no good dirty rotten scoundrels becaue they made documented allegations against the pastor in writing, and the recalcitrants did not go before some committee. Fine.

But here's the point D:

But does this in any shape, form, or fashion justify or prove the innocence of the pastor against the allegations of these men? Because these men are now fired and banned from the property, their concerns can be dismissed? Can everyone assume now that whatever the pastor was accused of he is now innocent of? OF COURSE NOT!! But this is how objections are handled - throw the bums out and let's move on.

My hunch...and its just a hunch based on my experience. Hmmm...let's see, six ministers well known in the community with decades of service and stellar reputations...a new pastor comes in and in a year these six people...ALL OF THEM...have serious concerns about the trustworthiness of the pastor to the point that they have to bring it up in writing...and they are fired...hmmm...who are the scoundrels worthy of firing - the six long term ministers, or the pastor? Not drawing conclusions here for lack of facts...but I might, MIGHT...just have to go with the allegations of the six men.

We shall see.

Anonymous said...

While senior pastors often report to no individual directly, associate ministers usually report directly to the senior pastor AND are responsible to the congregation's personnel committee. When the senior pastor is wrong AND the associate ministers have done their best to address the matter with him--both individually and together--those ministers have as a recourse to report the matter to the personnel committee--the group to which the senior pastor will take his complaints about them, in most cases. Unless the congregation's personnel policies specfically stated that the senior pastor of FBC-O has the authority to fire associate ministers--who likely were "called" by the church, just as he was--I for one wouldn't "stay fired" but would be back in my office on the next work day. I would have stayed there unless he was big enough to get me out of the office!

As I mentioned in an earlier posting: in a similar situation some years ago, the personnel committee of the congregation was involved by the associate ministers. The personnel committee was present in the next regular deacons' meeting to address the matter with the senior pastor. The senior pastor was the one who wound up in trouble--and he should have been. It wasn't long after that time that he left the church for another ministry position. The associate ministers had done their part to help make things right--and they appreciated very much the personnel committee's action.

Bottom line: have a personnel handbook, follow the personnel handbook--and be ready to exercise the handbook's grievance procedures.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and the personnel committee asked each of us to put our concerns with the senior pastor in writing. We did, and those documents were taken by the committee to the deacons' meeting with the senior pastor. None of the associate ministers were required to be present; our written concerns were read aloud without our names being read with them--but deacons indicated later that they could tell from the written statements whose statement each one was. Enough concern already existed among the deacons and personnel committee's members that, if the associate ministers now also were saying things were so, then those things must truly be so.

The senior pastor had his chance to correct his behavior and lead the staff team; he opted not to, and apparently didn't think the associate ministers were the courageous men they are. It was his loss--and would have been the congregation's loss if he'd lived up to his potential.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

Dr. Dog,
I am unaware of a person called "D". My name is not "D" so I don't know who you are talking about. Has someone named "D" posted here before?

Back to the main topic, if I may make a few points. The article you hyperlinked reported that the ministers referred to Pastor Cummins as "manipulative", "untrustworthy" and "dishonest". I don't think these descriptive characteristics would fit the profile of a sexually abusive pastor. You say that the allegations could be for sexual misconduct or harassment but I think if that were true, there would be a victim or two. And the article would have mentioned some sort of police investigation activity. Would that be correct, I could be wrong? Personally, based on the ministers own words, I think the allegations are financially related. But that is just my opinion.

I don't think the pastors innocence is guarenteed by way of the associate ministers actions. That's ridiculous. My point has always been that the way the ministers handled the situation on their part was incorrect.
The pastors innocence is a whole different issue. But we shall see in the near future was comes of this new development with FBC Ocala.

Anonymous said...


I stumbled across this blog abuot a week ago when Googling Mac Brunson's name. I was in utter shock when I read the blogs. Your descriptiveness, along with the some of the other blogger perspectives, is amazing and I hope this blog will serve its intended purpose of bringing Dr Brunson to repentence and getting FBC back on track.

Anyway, what exactly can members and/or deacons do?

If bringing documentation to the trustees results in nothing as the FBC Ocala stories indicate then what can concerned members/deacons do?

Should I speak with some deacons about this blog?

Should I send an anonomous email to several deacons with the link to this blog?

What is the proper and Christian thing to do to bring these accusations to further light?

Also, I heard that Sunday afternoon the deacons approved the budget for next year and soon it will be brought before FBC for approving. I heard that many deacons were asking alot of questions about it and actually one or two of them voted against it. I heard that the budget was not very clear about salaries and did not include any of the major maintenance items. When this budget comes before the church next week or whenever it does the congregation will not have sufficient details, as usual, to really vote on it. What can be done to stop the way FBC ramrods the budget down the church body?

Please keep up the good investigative work! Thanks.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Hi Anon - thanks for posting!

I am surprised, but encouraged, to hear that some deacons voted against the budget. Just THAT means progress is being made. That spells trouble for Brunson.

I don't recommend talking to deacons about this blog, unless they are friends and you think they need to have their eyes opened. If you try to talk to leadership at the church about the blog or the concerns on this blog, you will not like the response and it won't be worth the trouble it creates for you.

I don't know what to do honestly. You can forward the blog to other members that you know are friends. All we can do is work to open the eyes of more and more members. That is the purpose of this blog. The local readership is steadily growing, and more members are having their eyes opened.

About the vote on the budget...there ain't nothing we can do but be present and vote "Nay".

We're in the situation where our church has been conditioned for decades to trust and follow the pastor and lay leaders and not having to ask any questions. It will take someone from the inside, someone influential to have a backbone to stand up to the trustees and the pastor. So far that man has not risen up.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:57 what exactly was left to any previous doubt? My identity? If so, please share. My equating FBC Jax to a purpose driven church? Far from it. I was making that comment based on the constant ranting in the comments section against the Purpose Driven movement.

So please elaborate, what was not left to any doubt?

Ramesh said...

I do not think even if an influential deacon stepped up, he will be a sacrificial lamb in this case. It would not change anything at fbcjax.

My instincts tell me that the "evil" of marketing and other "evils" will have to run their course here. I have seen several bible verses related to that, and I will leave it to the astute bible readers to find them.

This is what happened in the secular world of business and I am sure the same thing will happen here. All the "fads" of marketing and high powered "type A" preacher personalities and their manipulative preaching will have to reach it's full potential and the tolls have to be collected.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ preserve the faithful to the Word of God and keep them in His mercies and His Love.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:17

Please stop harping on your identify. You make it sound as though you are more important than you actually are. I don't care who you are, got it.

Anonymous said...

That 180 degree turn of JS is a dandy. Does he not realize that the voters of America chose Obama over McCann? The president has little effect on its citizenry as the legislative branch and the courts carry the weight of power in most things that concern them, like abortion, taxes, and appropriations. He has to get over this idea as it makes him look so silly. He should have been around during the depression or WWII like many of us older people. He has yet to grasp what the voters can do not only for a country but a CHURCH!!! You have heard that a nation and a church are only as good as it's leaders. Someone has remarked here that "as the churches go, so goes the nation". Boy, are we in trouble!

Anonymous said...

This man is no preacher. All he is, is a glorified salesman, and you are the product. All of these mega guys, seminaries and church staffs, are just making money off of the name of JESUS. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU. AND SHAME ON YOU WHO LET THEM DO IT!!!

He learned fast that he was no Homer Lindsay, and that this church would figure him out in short order, so he went into sales and marketing to get the money fast. Notice in most business the term "marketing" always is preceeded by the term "Sales". Get it, "Sales and Marketing"!

Anonymous said...

Quotes from Blades of Glory:


It's good that widows' mites from FBC Jax are going to Maurilio so that he can watch movies like this.

Anonymous said...

Here's a comparison for you: Notice how AIG and some of these other "bailout" guru's, are doing exactly what they want. They took their expensive vacation anyway, with total disregard for the tax payers who have to sacrifice to bail them out. The high priced execs., that rip off the govt., (you an I) because they know they have the govt., (you and I) over a financial barrel, and we won't dare let them fail, they are TOO BIG, so we have no choice, THEY THINK! They don't care what people think as long as they get their high flying lifestyle at our expense. It's in your face. They say "what are you stupid tax payers going to do about it, we are going to do what we want and you are going to pay for it".

Well, do you not see a parrallel here in this church? Sales and marketing, trips, lavish lifestyle, nepotisim, angry preacher, and family. They are in control, and they are going to do exactly as they wish, and no one will do anything about it. If members don't like it leave, regardless of how long you have been there or served. What do any of you think you can do, you have nowhere to go, your alternative is to lose your church, let it fail. And they KNOW you won't do that. They've gotcha folks! Check the bylaws!!! SUCKERS.

Anonymous said...

AIG: Definition: AIN'T IT GOOD!!!

Anonymous said...

Thy Peace: You are so right. It would take about 200 of the 240 or so deacons to act in order for change to occur. That won't happen.

Anonymous said...

As information: Bylaws, ITS ALL ABOUT CONTROL!!!!

Anonymous said...

People tithe when they are convicted to even though it is not biblical not when an angry speaker tells you that you are expected to when you join this church. Sounds like a legalistic expression of dogma unleashed in a fit of rage.

Anonymous said...

WD: Those deacons that did not support the budget will tell two more, and then four, then eight, then sixteen, then thirty two, you get the idea. Everyone will know that some deacons have BACKBONE!!

RM said...

What are your deacons doing voting on the budget in the first place? No wonder your church is in such trouble.

You should live in Dallas... We now have Ed Young (Fellowship Church which is also Baptist) preaching with a bed on stage and asking all the church members to have sex every day for a week starting this coming Sunday.

Sounds like great fun but I have doubts that it should be a Sunday morning sermon.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:27 seeing as how I raised the question ONCE, I don't see how that is harping on anything. I was responding to THIS:
Anon 5:57

You said it: PURPOSE DRIVEN!!!!!
You left to rest any previous doubts
I was asking what exactly was left to any previous doubts. I am sorry if that offends you that I would ask what was left to any doubt (not that I care if you were or not). I was not stating I was any more important than anyone on this board. If you are thinking I am the other person who would "shock" people if they knew who they were, it is not me. Get over yourself.

Anonymous said...

Here is one way to get things changed back to the way it was when we were growing at FBCJAX.

You tell someone who you know, and trust, that you want things to return to what worked in our church. Ask them if they think that we may have to have a PASTOR CHANGE IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH THIS. If they agree with you,


Let's be smart people. You know your circle of friends. DO NOT, I SAY, DO NOT GO OUT OF YOUR CIRCLE OF FRIENDS THAT YOU CAN TALK TO AND YOU CAN TRUST.

For those of you who know TRUSTEES AND DEACONS, BE TRUTHFUL WITH THEM. Ask them if we have given the pastor enough time to make changes. Then tell them that you are unhappy with the changes and you think that WE MIGHT NEED TO GO BACK TO WHAT WORKED BEFORE MAC CAME. Now, tell them that you respect there position as deacon and or trustee and that you recognize their loyalty to their pastor. However, that being RIGHT WITH THE LORD IS MORE IMPORTANT. Then TELL THEM THAT YOU THINK THAT WE MIGHT NEED A PASTOR CHANGE. Tell them that others are unhappy with the way things are going. Be specific. Many of these men of God know things are not right. Give them your support.

There will be those who disagree with you. DO NOT GET INTO A CONFRONTATION WITH THEM. Let them think about it awhile then talk to them again. Let the HOLY SPIRIT WORK IN THEIR HEART.

The idea is to emphasize, to your friends that they should PASS IT ON NOW. We need to do this as a group. As a church. Now.

Do not mention NAMES.

Make sure that everyone is in prayer about this. Ask the Lord for guidance direction and wisdom.

There are many ways of moving back to what has always worked. This is one that will work.

If you think this will work then it is time to work your plan.

May God Bless You.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:50 a.m.

Thank you for your post, and I sincerely hope what you said will come to fruition, before it is too late.

Anonymous said...

Does Ed Young condone sex without the benefit of marriage? Obviously he does if he said "all members". What was the rest of the message about? Sounds like this Mega talker has ruined his chances of coming back to FBCJ conferences anymore. Be interesting to see how Mac treats him after this. Does he have a marketing firm behind this? Where does this go from here?

Anonymous said...

Can we suppose the BS team (Brunson & Stimler) got together on their European vacation to see just how they planned to ramrod their budget through the trustees, deacons and membership? These two began with the ball in their court and plan to keep it there.

Anonymous said...

What is going on with Ed Young? I have heard him in the past make remarks that were completely inappropriate about sex from the pulpit. I have heard this from him more than one time. It sounded strange as the remarks had no relevance to the main point of the sermon.

Anonymous said...

I have said from day one, FBC will never be the same church it was. Also the church will NEVER know where their money is being spent. Nor, how much money is actually taken in. When are churches going to figure out that the wolves are not outside trying to get in, but are in the pulpit and church trying to rob the sheep!!!!

Anonymous said...

Do we dare get encouraged? Can it be that the deacons are really going to stand and fight for this once great church. In the past there was never any question as to whether the money was in "safe hands". But now what has happened with Mac being in control, it makes even the deacons look dumb. Why are they not looking out for the church. They are not deacons in name only the church expects them to do their job.

Have you noticed that if the wrong parties can get just a few (yes men) in charge of the church they can ruin it from within. They don't have to keep people out of the church, they just have to get control of it. People your church is so close to failing it's so sad.

Anonymous said...

Ed Young said that? What is happening to the preachers of today? We are no longer among Godly men? No wonder we will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah!!!

Anonymous said...

LaVon Rigdon is a Godly woman who worked part time in the Bookstore before taking the position of Adminstrative Assistant to Doug Pigg. As Rev. Pigg's Assistant, LaVon was in charge of much of the behind the scenes organization of the Pastor's Conferences.

I'm not sure what her position changed to once Rev. Pigg left.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

Speaking of Rev. Pigg, I have heard from a reliable source that the staff who were once here, like Rev. Pigg and Rev. Bob Barton, etc. left on their own accord. They weren't forced out by our new pastor like some think to believe.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Have you spoken with either Pigg or Howard? Or Barton?

No, I don't think you have.

So your opinion matters ZERO.

Yep, God miraculously "called" them to other ministries after years of service at FBC Jax.

Call my a cynic, call me an evil blogger: I don't for a minute believe they left on their own accord. I just don't. I believe they in some form or fashion had communicated to them to find another job, and they were given a handsome severance package that carried a silence clause.

I haven't spoken with them, so I don't know this. Its pure speculation on my part, but that's how these things are done.

Open your eyes 12:09

Anonymous said...

The concern of "fear" of being expose and "dealt with" is cause for alarm throughout every church in existence. How does a church get to the point where members are afraid to voice their opinions, call to question what is going on in the church they are paying for, or even have the opportunity to meet with and discuss said concerns. A very wise pastor told his congregation to always be watching for the bear from the west, the bear FBCJ needs to be leery of is directly from the west, FBCDallas.

Members of FBCJ are having to whisper behind curtains, are afraid of the pastor and discipline committee who know they have concerns they wish addressed and questions relative to financial accountability. Playing the fear card is spineless, manipulative and abusive. Shame is not descriptive enough to decry these tactics. FBCJ, so many (even ourside your geographic area)are watching, wondering and waiting.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Interesting Checklist for Narcissist Pastor:


I believe this comes from a website that a poster has been sharing with us.

Anonymous said...

former fbc employee said: 5:05 pm

Thank you for this information.

More than likely, Lavon did the mother-load of the conference work at FBCJ but Trey took the glory.

Anonymous said...

For anyone interested, one of the major conferences being promoted by Conexus (other than 2009 Jax Pastor's Conference) has direct links to Surfers International on their website. Anyone making the connection??? Are you out there Trey?

Anonymous said...

Realizing this will reek of "the past" but it relates to "the present."

Will never forget being told that pastor Lindsay Sr. would never ride an elevator with a female, unless more than one. His sense of propriety prohibited any hint of impropriety. So we have come 360 degrees where the chairman of finance vacations with the pastor. Not reveling in the past, just pointing out how very far from discernment and accountability FBCJ has come.

Don't come on here demeaning those of the past regimes, blah, blah, blah. Only a reminder of how pastors are to conduct themselves, even in today's environment. Some surely have fallen short!

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:30 pm

You Nailed It. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

"RM" wasn't kidding.

Dallas Morning News

Check out the front page of his church's website.

Here's a video of him.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 12:09

No man is wise enough by himself! Plautus.

Anonymous said...

I talked to one of the former staff members about why they left FBCJAX.

I will not mention which one for fear of what might happen to them.

They did not, did not, volunteer to leave.

anon 5:36 you might reconsider your source.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09 you said:
"But I'm glad to read that I come across as an intelligent individual with an extensive vocabulary".

You surely are delusional and somewhat narcissistic as Brunson.

Anonymous said...

Check out the promotional video. Is that a toilet on stage with him???

Anonymous said...

Rick Warren tells the media he tithes 90% of his income. Come on Mac, you are sorely lacking behind with your measly 15% you so loudly expound from the pulpit while telling FBCJ to contribute more and more to the coffers you rob, yes rob; as you take from one budgeted program to expand and establish projects the membership has little knowledge of until the finance committee and deacons TELL the membership it is their recommendation and agree to fund as predisposed by Brunson and a few select, inner circle, deem "according to God's will. Have very pathetic leadership is!

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:36 post
This Ed Young is the son of Ed Young pastor of Second Baptist Houston. The Son is FULL BLOWN PURPOSE DRIVEN. Should I say more?
Entertainment, fellowship, very little scripture, and no wisdom. By the way, I think, in a heartbeat he would be asked to come to our Pastors Conferance.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Do we dare get encouraged? Can it be that the deacons are really going to stand and fight for this once great church".

Anon, We are praying for divine intervention, the heart of heaven bleeds over this truly ungodly situation.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Yep, that's a toilet! That would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:58

You are perceptive; Young just might be on the program for next years conference. Along with Young, we can expect Donna Gaines with her display of personal memorabilia (including her childhood pictures, cheer leading and beauty pageant pictures, etc.) which is on display at Bellevue. Also, Dorothy Patterson's hat collection should be a big draw, as Debbie Brunson and Donna Gaines have a propensity to emulate Patterson whenever it suits their agendas. The exception would be, as co-pastors to their mega-church spouses, until the SBC finds a way around that status.

God save us!

Anonymous said...

Was it my understanding that a previous post indicated the new budget for FBCJ did not include the maintenance requirements still unresolved from the past 6 months? Will another special offering and a resolution from the pulpit admonishing poor participation in home maintenance be forthcoming. HE (Brunson, with the approval of the finance committee), TOOK those expenditures for the Academy, didn't he, or was it for the televised sermons on INSP. Will he never be held accountable for his disrespect for the honor of such a pulpit as FBCJ or any other, ever again?

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

Dr. Watchdog,

You said: Have you spoken with either Pigg or Howard? Or Barton?

No, I don't think you have.

So your opinion matters ZERO.

I should warn, you must not assume what an individuals actions are and degrade their opinion based on your assumption. This is unfair and completely illogical and foolish on your part, and it reflects on the overall credibility of this blog. But that's the game you like to play on your blog. So, if my opinion matters ZERO because I supposedly haven't talked to them, then your opinion matters ZERO as well based on your own admission of having never talked to them either.

And just because you think you know how things work doesn't make you right. The engineers who built the Titanic said God could'nt even sink the vessel but look what happened.

Wisdom 101 Dr. Dog

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

1209 - wow, you are so smart. You are the master of logic and really put me in my place. My point is your view carries no more weight than my view.

8:36 pm: Tonight we had a special business meeting and Dave Bristowe asked for approval to spend $200,000 to fix the preschool building roof.

And yes, the word is that the budget for this year does not include the maintenance items for which the funds were NOT raised in the special offering.

I wonder why we didn't vote on spending money for the INSP network?

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09, have you learned nothing here yet? It doesn't matter whether the blogger has spoken to anyone or not. As long as he can make it anti-current FBCJax leadership he will. It matters not that he hasn't spoken to anyone. It matters not that this site is a personal vendetta against the leadership of the church, and the purpose driven movement. It matters not that he thinks he is "exposing" something but it is viewed for primarily entertainment purposes only by most people who actually read it as is evidence by the fact that several thousand people still go to First Baptist. It matters not that he doesn't hold the previous leadership accountable to the same level he holds the current leadership. It matters not that one of the former pastors was rather large and preached against gluttony but only under the current leadership did the blogger decide to address how hypocritical it was that pastors who preach agaist it are rather pudgy. It matters not that when I hear the pastors messages on TV, I hear relevant sermons to todays generation and not full of unnecessary condemnation as the blogger constantly rants about. No, you see none of this matters because when you discount all of these factors, it is only then the 15 minutes of fame can continue as well as the agenda put forth by this blog. If this blog were intellectually honest and were just interested in holding the church and the leadership accountable, they would not be so quick to judge everything the leadership does in a negative light.

They then proceed, rather than rationally back up the arguments like mature individuals, to attack you and your intentions. Kind of like me earlier, I make one reference to whether someone was asking about my identity, first time I mentioned it and some poster took exception and decided to spaz out about it.

You have to understand, free thought is not appreciated here. They only like people who are like minded so it feeds the so-called work of this blog.

I am sure I will be criticized, told I don't know what I am talking about, accused of doing what I accused them of, whatever. I don't care. I know there is no use in talking any sense to anyone here who isn't open to looking at things from a rational and unbiased point of view. I will continue to read for enjoyment and comment whenever.

Anonymous said...

Guarddog, we have seen men like Anon 12:09 before. They do not look for knowledge or understanding. They make their sport in discrediting the individual without considering the facts. We should pray for him that he would learn to pray for wisdom.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Nice speech 9:04. And great list you give.

But I notice some things you left off your list, and some things that you have yet to try to defend in the CURRENT regime of Team Brunson.

You choose only to mention things that are not even the main purpose of this blog...like the weight of the pastor? Do you think that is a major issue on this blog?

How could I hold "previous leadership" accountable? They're not there anymore, and one of 'em is deceased.

You really have the blinders on, and I feel sorry for you. You aren't capable of addressing the MAJOR issues that have been raised here, only the side issues and "hey, the other guys did some of these things and I didn't see a blog then". That is such a pathetic argument.

Why not address the nepotism?

Why not discuss why its so GREAT that he PC is now a marketing bonanza?

Why not discuss how super it is that we pay the pastors wife for a job we don't even know what she does?

Why not discuss how wonderful it is that Mac threatens us with debt and arrogantly tells us to fork over a million in two weeks for repairs that should have been addressed?

Why not address the bylaw changes that the pastor has still maintained silence on?

No, you want to talk about the pastor's weight.

OK...I'll bite: Didn't Smyrl look mighty plump tonight?

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09

You are so much trying to be JS, you even try to emulate his words and writings. Your arrogance and ignorance is showing in your lack of containing yourself in factual information. Again, as someone said earlier, get over yourself.
You sound so much like a Trey wanna be. Post again about others getting over themselves. Self-accusatory!

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:04: you said:

"You have to understand, free thought is not appreciated here."

That sir is exactly how many feel about the leadership of FBCJ and your attitude just confirms your lack of respect for those paying the way for the abusive individuals in leadership. You are totally myopic in your vision.
You are amusing in your ignorance and acceptance.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am YOU QUOTED:

Speaking of Rev. Pigg, I have heard from a reliable source that the staff who were once here, like Rev. Pigg and Rev. Bob Barton, etc. left on their own accord. They weren't forced out by our new pastor like some think to believe.

November 12, 2008 5:36 PM"


Anonymous said...

Can we get back on topic about the pastors' conference? 1209 doesn't want us to; too self-absorbed in his own relevance.

Anonymous said...

9:26 Right on brother. Its a real shame others do not have spiritual discernment. Maybe one day they will wake up from their delirium.

Anonymous said...

I wonder how Ed Young Sr feels about what his son said?

Anonymous said...

Pastors Conf: It ran around 1700-2500 pastors and church staff when it first started. We had several hundred in the dining room when the RL auditorium was jam full. Even in early 1990's in the current building it was packed to the rafters and people sat in the aisles and chairs had to be put in the hallways. Last year how many attended? I understood that only about 500 pastors attended. Sure sounds like some have departed for one reason or the other. Maybe this is the reason for higher fees and sponsorships. AIG said they were going to make up their staff meeting expenses over $300,000 by having some of their sponsors pay fees. Interesting idea for business, but I believe totally wrong for a church!!!

Anonymous said...

I will tell you why I am not going to address any of the issues you bring up. Actually it has nothing to do with my opinion one way or the other about any of them. I have never said the so called "Team Brunson" is perfect.You raise some very good points, however, when you mire issues that are relevant with irrevelant crap like weight of the leadership, whether the name of the church is listed on some tv show, and all in all act like he and the leadership of the church are Satan, your agenda shows through. You will never give the leadership any credit or in any way think they do things without some ulterior motive. You and some who post here have a personal vendetta agains the leadership of your church. Some have vendetta's agains the so called "purpose driven church" movement. So you are correct, I decided to post about the attitude I see on this blog. So you can be arrogant and say I gave a "nice speech" but I notice you never seem to care how your attitude and agenda is taken, so neither shall I.

As for the person who said my attitude "just confirms your lack of respect for those paying the way for the abusive individuals in leadership. You are totally myopic in your vision.
You are amusing in your ignorance and acceptance."

Usual, par for the course, attack the person who disagrees. I am glad you find my so called ignorance and acceptance amusing. As I posted previously, I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks. Sorry I don't find evil and contempt in every decision a church makes. And oh by the way, your response lended full credence to the line you decided to post about.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

I seem to draw much opposition on this blog. That's ok, I'm fine with that. It only makes me come back more. I also find it most intriguing that some find my posts emmulative of Rev. Jim Smyrl. Personally, I don't think my writings and comments reflect his writing style and I definitely do not try and write like him. And I am not Trey Brunson either, nor am I trying to be him. I am simply myself with my own opinions about the issues on this blog. While some find them offensive in nature, I find them equally as important as the Watchdogs and those who oppose me. But this is America and everyone has an opinion. But to those that oppose my viewpoints and call me self-accusatory and discrediting towards individuals without first observing the facts, here is what I have to say to you: This is America and you have the right to be wrong. So deal with it.

Anon 9:04pm,
I do not know who you are but I could not have stated the truth about this blog any better than you did good friend.

One last note, if I may add. Tonight, the expenditure budget for the fiscal year ending Dec. 31, 2009 was given to all attendees in tonights service. (So the dissenters cannot say they aren't given the financial records they are entitled to. I will make another comment on this whole issue at a later time)
And, Chairman David Bristowe announced that all the trustees of the church would be at the front of the auditorium after the service to answer any questions that people may have about the proposed budget. My point being, this was the bloggers chance to ask questions and get the answers they have been asking for on this blog such as salary figures, maintenance figures, etc. It was a well planned move by the Trustees and I hope the bloggers took full advantage of this.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1209 and 10:06, one and in the same.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:04

You were very information with the information provided. Thank you very much.

Anonymous said...

Right, one and the same, because we all know two people in the world can't possibly think Mac Brunson and company aren't as bad as the rest of you make them out to be.

Keep it the attacks though, I need a good laugh.

Anonymous said...

"Young just might be on the program for next years conference. Along with Young, we can expect Donna Gaines with her display of personal memorabilia (including her childhood pictures, cheer leading and beauty pageant pictures, etc.) which is on display at Bellevue."

Correction: Was on display. I don't think it is now, but someone got photos when it was.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Anon 12:09 - yes, there is a "slight" anti-Brunson bias here, after all this is a blog set up for members of FBC Jax to get information about the abuses of Mac Brunson. But we let people like you come here and defend or argue on Brunson's behalf. But not to worry...Mac has at his disposal a budget of millions, a pulpit that he uses as a bully pulpit to preach and accuse and intimidate people...he gets his messages out on the internet so that when he decides to slander someone he can have the maximum reach possible. He has his wife and son watching his back at the church and he pays them very well using our money...he travels to Europe with the man heading up the finances, and schmoozes the trustees at his home and country club to keep their full support. So Mac will do fine, and this silly little ole blog which is just a "few" recalcitrants who have a "personal vendetta" against the pastor can hurt a powerful (and "Godly") man, "God's man", like Mac Brunson, right? Why worry about a stupid blog?

While I most certainly don't have a vendetta against Brunson, I understand why you and the others supporting Brunson must think that. You have to rationalize all of the obvious abuses that are dared to be exposed here - it can't be a person who loves his church, cares for the people being abused at the church, and hates to see an arrogant preacher use the pulpit to slander...and the church's good name used to collecte advertising revenue. You must somehow believe that I have something personal against him. You must villify me in some way. But I understand.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09 didn't say that to you, I did. Secondly, I know this is your usual tactic, belittle the person who disagrees because they must justify some terrible thing the pastor does. Problem is, most people I know don't see it that way nor do I. I know, let me head this off now...the ones being abused never do. Whatever! Your statement was akin to "have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

And no, I have not villified you. I simply threw the things you have said and the attitude of which they have been presented back in your face. If that's "villifying" you then so be it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09 No offense, but I doubt we are good friends. I doubt I even know who you are.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:09am here again,

I have become confused with all the anonymous posters as to who is who. This is why I try and distinguish myself with the header "Anon 12:09am here again". May I recommend that the other Anons do something similar...just a thought that might ease the process of engaging other anons in conversation on this blog.

Dr. FBCJax Dog,
I would agree with you that there is a "slight" anti-Brunson bias on this blog. I do have one more question though. If this blog is intended to shed light on the abuses of Pastor Brunson to the members of FBCJax, why do you tell them to leave the blog if they don't like it? You want them to read about the abuses but you encourage them to stop reading the blog if they disagree with you or argue legitamately about the issues and your motives behind this blog. It's like you want everyone at FBC Jax to realize what is really going on, but at the same time you discourage the Brunson supporters from coming on here and arguing their viewpoints. Could you explain and enlighten please?

And Anon, I did not mean we are literal friends and that I actually know you. I don't know you and have no desire to know you. I meant good friend in a general cordial kind of way.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

That is such a stupid comment that I think I know who you are...

You've just revealed yourself...

Anonymous said...

What is all the discussion about? There really is only one reason this blog exists. Remember? There were a few questions raised after about 6 months that the pastor CHOSE not to address. So the blogging started. Everything else discussed here is not a personal vendetta, but a direct result of the pastor refusing to be transparent about a few issues that some members sent to him. They didn't sign their names, so he had Vines come and spit at them. So basically, it all boils down to some prefer to raise concerns by one anonymous email, while the pastor simply chooses not to do respond to them. Simple isn't it. The result: "okay then, pastor, we will blog until you answer our anonymous emails. Guess who will change first on their "convictions." Neither side. Who cares? Probably the pastor and his supporters.

Stubbornness and arrogance by a pastor causes lots of grief to a lot of people. So let's all blog on.

Nice job ignoring ONE anonymous email you should have answered sir. Now you are reaping what you CHOSE to sow. Perhaps all of your other abuses would have gone unnoticed if you had simply CHOSEN to treat one emailer with respect and answer a few concerns 2 years ago. Maybe in your next book you should have a chapter called: "Be considerate of ALL sincere inquiries by your members, or deal with a blog your entire ministry." Or call it "Why I don't refuse to answer anonymous emails that are from sincere, concerned members (especially when I plan on abusing the congregation...)."

Anonymous said...

Does any of the pastor's supporters that comment here have any explanation as to why Trey and Honey must be paid a salary to do anything at our church? Why must Deb take a salary, benefits and vacation and office space to serve alongside her husband? I don't get it? I am glad she ministers with her husband, like missionary wives and like Mrs. Lindsay and Mrs. Vines, but they did not need, or ask for, a separate salary and benefits. Isn't this taking advantage of her husband's position to increase her own wealth? Has not God met all of her wants and needs yet she demands more? And shame on us for allowing it.

This is just one issue for you to defend. There are hundreds more.

Anonymous said...

Bloggers - just think about this: Every month that goes by, I receive another check for $30,000.00. And I have nothing to spend it on, since my housing allowance covers my mortgage, utilities and all incidentals. All my health insurance is paid (and I have NO deductible like you all), and my car allowance pays for my car AND my gas. (I turn in my receipts...tee hee) and all my travel is paid, and my clothes, and my wife's salary comes in too, and my book royalties and my preaching gigs. And I pocketed $300K of equity on the land I built my house on as soon as I arrived, and yet you still pay me $1000.00 EVERY DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, even when I am in Europe or Gatlinburg. Got that? $30,000.00 per month on top of everything else! So, I just banked $30,000.00 12 days ago, and in just 18 days will bank another $30,000.00. See you all sunday!


Pastor Mac (aka "God's man")

God is good, all the time!

Anonymous said...

Who is Anon12:09?

it is written said...

Anon 12:55pm Nov.12 2008. That was classic.Brunson is all about the MONEY and you can take that to the BANK(lol).I'll say again Brunson is your classic WOLF in sheeps clothing.Anytime a pastor takes a church for this amount of MONEY,it's not about Jesus or His sheep it's about a ravenous WOLF FLEECING the sheep for his PERSONAL GAIN!! FBC Jax is well on it way to becoming IRRELEVANT.

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

Getting back to the topic here:

Someone posted the following yesterday:

"...Last year how many attended? I understood that only about 500 pastors attended. Sure sounds like some have departed for one reason or the other. Maybe this is the reason for higher fees and sponsorships. "

If that is true, that only 500 attended, then why are the promoters of the 2009 Pastors Conference, in the promotions brochure (which is an advertisement trying to draw sponsors and advertisers to spend money to market to the attendees) saying the following:

"On February 6-10, 2009, over 3500 Christian leaders will gather in Jacksonville, Florida to participate in one of the leading Pastors' Conferences in the nation..."

Where does the 3500 number come from if there were only 500 pastors last year? Are they counting spouses in that? Are spouses "Christian leaders"?

Advertising rates are based on attendance at these conferences, so if I were a potential advertisor I would be wary of these numbers.

However, likely the organizations that would be purchasing the time would look at the whole congregation as their market. The Jim Caviezel testimony/advertisement/endorsement was not marketed to just pastors, but all Christians present, so they probably viewed the $15,000 "platinum package" a deal...

But if one is marketing to primarily pastors and "Christian leaders", I would be wary of the 3500 number.

Anonymous said...

Here's a thought: What if every church in America had a watchdog back 50 years ago. Would there have been numerous laws passed that took away the mindset of the founding fathers and what the United States was so proud and stood? Could the pastors gathered together as one and fought the good fight? Would the citizens rolled over and played dead or prayed and moved shoulder to shoulder to not set aside their beliefs?

We are not fighting against flesh and blood thats too easily won. We are fighting against spiritual wickedness in "high places" (thats congress, supreme court, evil dictatorships) that Satan has got his hands upon. America needs a great revival, one like Jonathan Edwards had 200 years ago. Little by little we have seen the face of America turned into something that most of us do not even recognize.

We should all repent and beg God to forgive our sins and heal our land.

Anonymous said...

I am stunned. Instead of commenting on "why" it is wrong to sell tables, commercials on imags, etc as the church is now doing folks are more interested in debating why FBCJWD is blogging.

Can anyone reading state why the selling of advertising "space" via charging ministries if they want to have a table to display their items is NOT the same as money changers in the temple?

Isn't it?

Isn't the Holy Spirit capable of directing our leadership?

Can't we trust God to provide the funds IF it is His will for the church to do something?

The folks who come on here and keep recommending talking with the leadership. Try it out. Play devil's advocate and express your disagreement about not voting on some of the recent changes or proposed changes.

Ask if the pastor is accountable to the deacons and congregation.

See how you will be treated for asking questions. You will become the "Joe the Plumber" of FBC.

It has gone so far as to mocking those who wish to express a view that is clearly Biblically based.

Anonymous said...

No matter how you cut it, this BRUNSON TEAM IS A FAILURE. Five years ago 6500 people were attending the Pastors Conferance. I have heard the 500 number also but thought it had to be higher than that. Now you say 3500. That is still a loss of 3000 attendees. Maurilio is also a failure if he was behind this change in MARKETING. There are still good, wise pastors who can see through this PURPOSE DRIVEN FIASCO. The pastors may come once but when they are fed this PD junk in exchange for HOLY SPIRIT led food,they are not going to come again. The last two years we saw, in closed door,{premium sesson}, the brainwashing of PURPOSE DRIVEN MARKETING taking place. This year will be the year when SATELITES will be the next wave of PURPOSE DRIVEN. Brunson will not quit so get used to it. The trustees and deacons will continue to go along with Brunson. They can not get rid of their RUBBERSTAMP mentality. We are indeed going to experience some heartwrenching days ahead.
Stay in prayer.

Who will be brave enough to stand up to BRUNSON? Which deacon which trustee? Who is full of the HOLY SPIRIT? Who are the courageous? Maybe it is you.

Anonymous said...

I would say to It Is Written, sir you are 100% correct. But, I think FBCJ is ALREADY IRRELEVANT. Who needs this group. It isn't a church anymore!! Your church has been declining since Lindsay died. Vines had started bringing some of this stuff into the church when he allowed Warrens, "Purpose Driven Life", to be taught in the Training Union hour on Sunday night. And remember he is the one that ram rodded Brunson in here. So lets not forget his (Vines) contribution and he is in thick with Patterson and the rest of the "club".

What Brunson and the "turstees" (?) don't get is people don't have to have FBCJ in their lives to "justify" THEIR existance. If you stop attending FBCJ and find another church nothing horrible will happen to you. You might actually receive a blessing somewhere else. Lindsay was the last REAL preacher at FBCJ, and you won't see another like him. This group will eventually fail, they will leave with their bags of money on to "bless" another group of suckers and the "yes men" that they leave behind will loose face among the congregation left. All of this current "storm" will eventually destroy this once great church, but like this election you get what you ask for.

Many felt that once Lindsay died FBCJ would get "taken" and it certainly has. He was a called man of God (truly) and God blessed his ministry, unlike those following him.

As to the Pastor Conference: I believe 500 was the correct number as I heard this also from several sources that worked in the conference. Thus, the advertising gimmick was "hit upon" to bring in the money lost from non-attendance. If attendance is up with this "new advertising and marketing scheme", then you will have the same type preachers coming as Mac. They will be interested in the "money" angle and how to make it. But, if the preachers do not come then maybe there are some out there that are still called of God and are led by the Holy Spirit.

Anonymous said...

First, let me say that I do not attend FBCJ, however that does not mean that I don't have loved ones and friends who attend. If I say something to them (and I have) I have to be careful as not to come off as putting down or critizing their church. That is absolutely not my intention, however I have told them that if the things that are happening at my church were going on as they are at FBCJ, then I cannot believe that the deacons, members, etc...would not make it clear to the pastor, assoc. pastors, deacons etc...that this is not acceptable.

Selling access to the pulpit? My position would be if our church were unable to host an event with a minimal cost to those attending, then it is not what we should be doing.

How is this not an absolutly clear example of Jesus (the only time that he expressed himself as visibly upset) walking through the temple and turning over the money changers tables and clearly stating that "my house is a house of prayer?"

WD - I have pointed out with your clear picture through evidence what is going on to them on the FBCJ website, PC selling of advertising & access space, Brunson's sweetheart deal, value of his home, Jim Cavesiel etc...THEY HAD NO IDEA OF ANY OF THIS! They were shocked.

I am convinced that the more light is shed on this that people who believe that church is for worshipping, sharing Jesus and praising our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and not a place to market, sell, advertise or profit will be on board and not stand idly by. Knowledge is power and right now people have to be informed.

Anonymous said...

Hard for any reasonable person to argue with this (from http://www.purposedrivenchurch.com/en-US/AboutUs/WhatIsPD/12+PD+Characteristics.htm; what you got yourself at FBC-Jacksonville isn't "Purpose Driven"--it's some preacher who doesn't listen to his members like he ought to and members who are passive-agressive in solving church problems; both are really sad . . . and somebody's response to my saying so will prove it again; be like FBC-Jacksonville right now OR be like Saddleback Community Church now: give me Saddleback--where over 2000 new Christians are baptized every year):

"Purpose Driven congregations have 12 essential characteristics

"We’ve seen church after church dynamically transformed by simply adapting Purpose Driven methods into their overall strategy. Since every congregation is unique, there are always a variety of factors that contribute toward the health and growth of any given church. However, we’ve found that there are always 12 essential characteristics present in successful, balanced Purpose Driven congregations:

"PD congregations create a purpose statement describing (in their own words) their commitment to building the church around the five New Testament purposes: worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and missions.

"PD congregations are intentionally purpose driven in their strategies to fulfill their purpose statement. Although different terms can be used, a Purpose Driven strategy is designed to introduce non-believers to Christ, encourage them to join his family, guide them toward maturity, equip them for ministry in the church, and then send them out on a life mission in order to bring glory to God. The PD strategy is based on two assumptions: people grow best when you allow them to make gradual commitments, and you must ask for those commitments in specific ways.

"PD congregations organize around a Purpose Driven structure -- keeping a balance and equal emphasis between all five New Testament purposes. PD churches are team-based rather than hierarchical in structure. They organize around purpose-based teams, (at least five -- one for each purpose) composed of lay leaders and staff, with each team responsible for a specific purpose and target group (such as the community, the crowd, the congregation, the committed, and the core).

"PD congregations develop ministry strategies by purpose. They have at least one game plan for fulfilling each of the five purposes: they evangelize the community, gather the crowd for worship, fellowship in the congregation, disciple the committed, and equip the core for ministry and mission.

"PD congregations staff by purpose. Every purpose has its own champion. PD churches begin by finding volunteers to lead and serve on each purpose-based team, and then they develop full-time, paid positions as needed.

"PD congregations are led by pastors who preach by purpose. Sermons, including series, are planned so that the congregation receives a balanced emphasis on each of the purposes.

"PD congregations form small groups on purpose. The Purpose Driven DNA is implanted in every cell of the Body of Christ. Each small group helps members live out the five purposes, so that every member is encouraged to live a purpose driven life.

"PD congregations calendar by purpose. The purposes are the determining factor in deciding what events are scheduled. Every event must fulfill at least one of the five purposes or it isn’t approved.

"PD congregations budget by purpose. Expenditures are categorized by the purpose to which they relate.
PD congregations build by purpose. Church buildings are seen as ministry tools not monuments. They must serve the purposes and never become more important than the purposes or the people a congregation is trying to reach through the purposes.

"PD congregations evaluate by purpose. They regularly ask: “Are we balancing all five purposes? Is there a better way to fulfill each purpose?”

"PD congregations are best built from the outside-in, rather than from the inside-out. It’s far easier to turn a crowd into a core than it is to turn a core group into a crowd. You build a healthy, multi-dimensional ministry by focusing on one level of commitment at a time.

"Next >> The most common myths about Purpose Driven"

it is written said...

Anon 10:37am nov.13 2008:::I agree with you that Vines began the movement toward PC in FBC Jax.You are again correct that when Dr.Lindsay Jr. died that was the beginning of a downward spiral at your church.For Vines to have the church taught this heretical method of discipleship is unconscionable considering his theological training. Dr.John MacAuthur Jr.,R.C.Sproul,Steve Larson,Mark Devers,Dave Hunt among others respected pastor's and teachers personally condemn PC as dangerous.Even Rick Warren himself along with Bill Hybels now admit the PC has left there congregations Biblical illiterate.This is the future for FBC Jax,a church with possibly thousands of members who will not be able to discern Biblical truth from error lead by an extremely greedy,covetous,pompous man who's only great concern in not God's Will or God's people but his pockets and that of his family and friends.

it is written said...

Anon 11:24am Nov.13,2008.....Just because 2000 people are baptisted per year means absolutely nothing.The greater question is how many of those who were baptist truly have believed in Jesus Christ as both Savior and Lord? I'm sure that Judas Iscariot was baptisted but look what he did!Time is the true determiner of geniune salvation not a moment in time when someone makes a verbal profession.Jesus said their are some who believe for a while[Luke 8:13].PC is more focused on form and fashion than on the deep exposition of God's Word.

Anonymous said...

Wow this place is highly intelligent. Is this a blog to "hold leadershipo accountable" or an obsessive compulsary disorder meeting? One guy obsesses over every move the pastor of First Baptist makes and tracks him down to all ends of the earth and back, and at least one other obsesses over the so-called Purpose Driven movement and runs it into the ground over and over and over again. Maybe I can come back tomorrow and see some obsessing over the city's mayoral agenda, the southern baptist missions program, or the new President.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:24 you obviously do not know the first thing about FBCJAX.

From your Rick Warren sales brochure, just mentioned, you would know that Brunon is well on his way to making FBCJAX look like Purpose Driven.

Brunson has raced into this PD program believing, as you do, that this is God's Purpose.

The fact of the matter is that this a failed system pushed by greedy men who want fame, fortune, and followers. What they actually get is a ruined church and a destroyed testimony.

If you have been around the Watchdog site you would have read about many of the points that you list. It all sounds WONDERFUL. What you do not tell is that the foundation of this system is ROTTEN TO THE CORE CONCEIVED BY MEN OF QUESTIONABLE BACKGROUND.

FBCJAX, LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THIS POST. LOOKING AT THIS IS LIKE LOOKING AT YOURSELF IN A MIRROR. If there ever was a question in your mind whether we are PD or not, this should remove all doubt.

Anonymous said...

To the anon who keeps making the PD movement the focus of his posts. This blog is not about PD. Most of us do not share the same concern about Rick Warren and PD as you do. We have never criticized Mac for being PD, whether he is or not. You should start your own blog about PD pastors and churches and the dangers of it. Know what I mean? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Blogger 2:26 This preacher IS using Purpose Driven Dogma to help ruin this church. Much of what is wrong in this church has been brought about due to Purpose Driven ideals, whether you recognize, admit or like it. Know what I mean? Thanks!

Anonymous said...

I know what you mean. But if he chooses to go PD, so be it. What if we love Rick Warren and believe we should be a PD church? Or if even if we don't and disagree. Really no reason to blog. It is all the other things he is doing that sparked the blog. Not that he is leading our church to be a PD church. That is what Mac would love to have people think. That the only "abuse" he is doing is leading us to be PD. That would be to ignore all the financial abuses. It is about so much more than him being PD. Does that make sense? I am not trying to be rude, just trying to keep the blog on topic. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

What is "PD"? Anyone here have a good understandable definition? Just asking. Thanks. Carry on.

Anonymous said...

Blogger 7:28 : No it makes NO SENSE. Mac does what he wants in regard to this church. He uses Purpose Driven tactics to "run" the direction of the church. The marketing group is completely Purpose Driven, and they tell Mac and Honey what to do, that's why we give them so much money. Most people don't know much about the Purpose Driven Movement and how it destroys churches. Sure, they get a big crowd to start with, something "NEW and FRESH", don't you know. But, after a while it's over and churches are split or destroyed completely. Purpose Driven is a "cancer" that kills churches. Thousands of them have suffered and are no longer because of this movement. There are many testimonies to this fact outside of the very narrow scope of SBC or FBCJ. If people knew the entire story of PD then maybe this church and others would certainly avoid it. As evidence, see blogger l0:22 comment as to "What is PD". Ignorance has always been the allie of the devil and this is no exception!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your thoughts on PD. You may be right. PD may be an evil movement that needs to be stopped. And yes, I and many others may be ignorant about it. Still, the concerns here are with a pastor (whether PD or not)accepting a $307K land gift secretly, changing by-laws without making them available to all members, putting wife and son on salary with no real job duties or accountability, selling the pulpit, promoting his own brand using church funds and resources, preaching legalistic tithing, slandering Sheri Klouda, criticizing his job and congregation to vines and patterson. I don't think those things are specifically PD in nature. In other words, even if he were not PD, or even if he was PD, his actions show him to be a charlatan and incapable of leading, PD or not.

Anonymous said...

I love this, I really do. Anon 12:17, I would not be so bold to say the so called Purpose Driven Movement kills churches. Perhaps it kills yours, perhaps it kills others, but it does not kill all. I have attended several churches that I am sure you would consider to be purpose driven, and I have seen very vibrant, very alive, very christlike people attending them. I have seen pastor's preaching the truth's of the bible and giving the whole counsel of it. I have seen small groups which is allegedly a purpose driven philosophy strengthen relationships between Christians in church and help all who are in those groups walk with Christ.

This obsessive behavior and vitriolic hatred you have for this so called movement is unhealthy for your own spiritual life. So why don't you quit obsessing over it, focus on your own spiritual walk, and if so called Purpose Driven churches aren't for you, then find and attend a more traditional one.

Sorry to keep this PD crap going. But I am sick of the generalizations and obsessiveness about an entire so called movement based on what is apprently very little knowledge about the churches who utilize them since I doubt you have been in very many.

Anonymous said...

Blogger 3:55: LASTY COMMENT ON PD.
I believe you are the one "obsessing" over the PD movement. As you can't leave it alone! Understand that there are many, many churches that have gone through the PD path and regretted it. As I stated before PD is like a disease it runs it's course FOR AWHILE, but eventually destroys the church. Hybels said, about a year ago, that it was a failure in his church. He was a big supporter of PD until it failed. The success that you may currently see in a PD church will not last, it is for a season. From the use of your language I would say maybe you have been there too long already.
You know absolutely nothing about me or my church history. So I would say that your assumptions are "out of line". I will pray for you as you continue your walk with the Lord, and hope you will grow in His Grace.God bless you. This will be my last comment on this matter to you. Thanks.

Blogger 3:11: I agree with your points. Well made!

Anonymous said...

Sir, it is not me who makes it a point to make every post I leave about the so called Purpose Driven movement from start to finish. I can also promise you know nothing about me because the church I attend is far from one now, it is far more traditional. So under your logic, maybe the traditional church model has seen it's day, so would you now care to drop this line of idiocy?

The churches I am referring to have been on the course they have been for well over 10 years now. So, at what point are you willing to give up this notion that PD kills churches and that maybe it has to do with how the leadership runs the church using those methods? 20 years? 30 years? When?