I thought: "How silly do these people look! Crying over a man that really they don't know what his agenda will be and about whom they know very little." I was a little angry - I realized that most of these people have nothing but disdain for ole George Bush. You see, George is not a glitzy president. He stumbles over his words. He is not a great orator. He doesn't make lofty promises. But he was a leader who devoted himself to the primary job of a president - that is protecting the homeland against enemies that want to destroy us - and he did it exceedingly well. Even in the face of political pressure and ridicule and low popularity ratings - he stuck to doing what he knew his job was. But no gratitude for Bush...they want the new guy who speaks well. They don't care so much WHERE Obama will lead, they just want "change".
As soon as I thought that, I realized I was part of a crowd that did the very same thing just a few years ago. My mind went back to February 2006 when Mac and Debbie Brunson stood in front of our church. We knew next to nothing about Mac Brunson at the time. To us, he was a blank slate. But yet we, like the Obama voters tonight in Grant Park, looked up at Mac Brunson, gazed into his eyes and cried and gave him a standing ovation as he delivered a speech and we voted to make him our leader. After years of following men like Homer Lindsay who had nothing special about them except that they did the main thing which was preach the Word, we as a church were so quick to throw our love and support and allegience - allegience we had given to a preacher who had proven himself and earned our trust - we were so quick to throw it fully behind a guy we didn't even know the first thing about.
Like Obama, the only thing we really knew about Mac was what they wanted us to know. The bio promo video shown on the screens that day - which was likely produced by the A-Group -sold us an "image" of what "Team Brunson" was. Its not that Mac didn't have a history - its just that we weren't told what it was. We had no chance to ask questions. We had no idea what he believed or how he would lead us. Yet our church threw to his feet our loyalty from day 1. We gave he and Honey and Trey (and unknown to us, the A-Group) in a single moment everything and more that the previous pastors had earned through their years of sacrifice and love. We made Brunson and his wife and his children the "royal family of FBC Jax" - we allowed them to view our church like a family business where they could hire his family and friends and associates and consultants and promoters.
It was then that I realized in February 2006, the people of FBC Jax were as gullible - no, we were MORE gullible - than the Obama supporters who think a man they know little about is the next great leader of our country.
As we have found out at FBC Jax - its a dangerous thing when people blindly throw their support behind an unknown, unproven leader.
But as Mac has said about this election several times: "We will get the leader that we deserve."
Church, we need to face the truth about ourselves and what having Mac Brunson as our leader says about us: "We HAVE the leader that we deserve."
WD, a very well written post. I sincerely hope all the other members will wake up and hold the leadership of fbcjax to a higher standard than what is being practiced.
All you can do is write and protest about it. If the leadership is not goaded nothing will happen.
God bless you WD. You have excellent company in the past of people who protested against church authorities.
Watchdog your comments ring so true. I have been making the same comparison. As I said earlier "As the churches go... so goes the nation. Unlike you I had heard Brunson preach before and knew immediately he was not the one for First. God does give spiritual discernment, and many of us had it. We knew this was a mistake. Unfortunately the "leaders" in the church do not always have spiritual discernment. Just like George Bush (an excellent Pres. in my opinion), we had enemies WITHIN. But just like this election we had no voice nor any chance of changing what a small group had already ordained, starting with Patterson and Vines. The pulpit committee was a formality put forth to make us swallow the facts . The FACT is we lost our church. I hold this group responsible for this now failed pastorate. I have said for a while now the church and the nation have gone into "madness". Keep your eyes on Jesus. When all else fails, as it has, only Jesus will keep us in perfect peace!!!
For those defenders who think that just because a man is a Pastor that God has called him. Please explain what JESUS meant when He warned of WOLVES in SHEEP clothing in Matt.7:15. Who are the false Christ and false prophets JESUS' mentioned in Matt.24:5,11,24? The Apostle Paul urged the Ephesus Elders night and day for three years about GREVIOUS WOLVES and men teaching PERVERSE(distorted) things infiltrating their Church; Who were these interlopers?[Acts 20:28-31].The Corinthian Christians were alerted to men who were masquerading as MINISTERS of rigtheous when in fact they were proxies of Satan who was himself presenting himself as an ANGEL of LIGHT.Who are they?[2Cor.11:3,13-15].Paul warned the Christians in Galatia of dangerous men who were distorting the Gospel,and condemned those false teachers[Gal 1:7-9].GOD GAVE TRUE PREACHERS to counter the false so that the Ephesus believers would not be "TOSSED TO AND FRO,with every wind of doctrine(Teaching),by the SLEIGHT of men,and cunning craftiness,whereby they lie in wait to DECEIVE"[Eph.4:14]. The Colossians were in danger of being lead away "through philosophy(et.Psychology,history,etc) and vain deceit,after the traditions of MEN,and not after CHRIST[Col.2:8].The Holy Spirit discloses in Scripture of "doctrines(Teachings) of demons" being perpetrated by HYPOCRITICAL LIARS(Preachers)who have NO conscience[1Tim.4:1]. Timothy was charged to preach the Word because a time was coming when people would not LISTEN TO SOUND DOCTRINE,but chose teachers(Preachers) who will tell them what they want to hears versus what they need to hear.[2Tim.4:14]. Titus was informed to deal with "many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers(PREACHERS);who mouths must be stopped,who SUBVERT whole houses,teaching things which they ought not,FOR FILTHY LUCRE'S SAKE[Titus 1:10-11].Peter gets in on the action by warning the early Christians and those today of FALSE TEACHERS INFILTRATING the Church and teaching "FEIGNED"(plastos;plastics;false)words to make merchandise(gain,money) of the people[2Pet.2:1-3].Finally the bond-servant Jude counciled the believers to "earnestly contend(battle) for the faith(truth) which was ONCE delivered to the saints". Why this warning? "For there are certain MEN(false teachers)CREPT IN UNAWARES"[Jude 4]. Lets put to rest this NONSENSE that just because a man is a pastor or preacher that it was God who called him. Many are called by Satan,money,power,prestige,sex or other selfish reasons. This also believe that I have only given you a small sampling of what the Bible warns about deceptive men posing as Prophets,Apostles,Pastors,Teachers,and Evangelist,the Bible is replete with these references.We are commanded to be Berean Christian and "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,whether those things be so".[Acts 17:11].That means that you examine every thing taught and done by me or anyone else by the written Word of God(THE BIBLE).Jesus stated that"you will know them by their fruit".Also the responsibility of a Pastor is to protect,nurture, care for be an example for the people of God over which HE has been made the overseer; To feed the flock of GOD which HE has purchase with HIS ON BLOOD[Acts 20:28].FBC Jax I've said it once and I'll say it again base on what I seen and been personally told by members and Dr.Dogs blog:You guys are in big trouble with Brunson unless he changes!!
WD, you mentioned the A-Group in your post. We all know about this marketing group out of Tennessee; however, in a previous post you mentioned a marketing group in Atlanta. Are we paying for two separate groups, if so why?
Two big differences between Obama and Mac is that Obama had to go out and work hard, over a grueling campaign, to EARN those votes. No one GAVE his job to him.
And second, so far he HAS NOT moved to a secluded luxury island for a year away from those that voted for him, nor is he going to put his wife and son on salary (Michelle will just have to make due with the salary and benefits paid to Barack), nor has he yet promoted his own personal and family wealth at the expense of those he voted for. Nor will he change any laws secretly, and nor will he whine about those that blog about him, or tell us how tough his job is.
So, please, let's be fair to President-Elect Obama and not compare him to Mac and Honey just yet. Let's give him a chance to let his OWN ACTIONS on the job form our opinion of him, just like we did Mac. Hopefully, Obama won't abuse the trust and leadership given him like Mac has done.
Annon - yes indeedy, we are paying not only for the AGroup, but we are paying for a "promotional firm" out of Atlanta that arranges for all of the promotions and selling of the promotional time at the pastors conference.
So another lie by Mac: when he told SBC Today interviewer earlier this year that his son Trey was solely responsible for the organization of the PC...and when he brought Trey to the platform to congratulate him for "raising $100,000" right in the face of David Jeremiah....it was a "little white lie"...because it was not Trey, it was a promotions firm in Atlanta that did the selling and organizing and coordinating.
But does any of this surprise you?
Our tithes and offerings are being spent OUT OF TOWN on consultants, marketers, promoters.
We've been prostituted.
And the trustees are doing nothing.
And you'll be asked to give. And give big. And hold on to your wallets folks. All the while, Mac will use this to build the brand of his own son at our expense.
Ain't God good?
Barack Obama graduated from the Harvard Law school at the top of his class. A very intelligent man, like him or not. Please don't disrespect his accomplishments to comparing him to Mac Brunson who has a seminary doctorate in fairy tales from SWBTS.
Dr.Dog another difference between Obama and Brunson is Obama claims to be a pragmatist where as Brunson claims to be a preacher when in reality he's also a pragmatist.This is why instead of trusting the solid preaching of Christ and asking God for direction he goes to the alter of the A-group and the Atlanta promotional firm.This is the new wave of today preachers.The preaching of the Bible no longer draws people,so if that doesn't work lets try something else,anything else.Brunson is a true pragmatist.
Surveys, consultants, marketeers. Sounds like church in the 21st century doesn't it. Also, whose bright idea was it to forget strong preaching, doctrinal messages, and more and more about Jesus? Church is OVER.
Readers - wow, I couldn't believe my ears.
I listened to the SWBTS chapel service today, and it was a doozy.
I'll be posting an article with some clips later, but wanted to give you an update of what I heard:
1. PP in introducing Mac compared Mac and his suffering to Martin Luther. Yes, I wasn't imagining things, he did.
2. Honey was there with Mac. Yep, we pay her a salary for some unknown position at our church, but she seems to have plenty of time to travel with him on his preaching gigs.
3. Mac used his sermon from a few weeks ago, the first sermon in his "Flip Side of Hurt" series - you know, the one that started off talking about the Brazilian runner who was attacked by an anonymous person trying to get him out of the race. His message was in a nutshell: "All you seminary future preachers, get ready, YOU TOO...LIKE ME...WILL BE ATTACKED."
If there was any doubt when Mac preached that sermon that it was actually about HIM being attacked, he removed all doubt today. The man is the most self-absorbed preacher in the history of the SBC. Its all about him, and his "suffering".
Poor, pitiful Mac. Instead of looking at his situation at FBC Jax and seeing if there is something that the Lord is trying to tell him, things he needs to change or behaviors and attitudes toward his congregation that need to be improved...he would rather run to SWBTS and play the victim. Have PP compare his suffering to that of Martin Luther.
Interesting, isn't it...Mac lies about Sheri Klouda from his pulpit and never apologizes, then runs to SWBTS to have PP speak words of pity on his behalf. One word to describe Mac and PP: SHAMELESS
I hope, I honestly hope...that the SWBTS students are smarter than this. Mac's suffering, whatever it is at this point...is not the message to the SWBTS students...what should be the message is: DON'T BE AN ABUSIVE, GREEDY PREACHER BECAUSE YOU SHOULD BE A HUMBLE LOVING SHEPERD. The message and lesson for the students is to look closely at Mac's failed pastorship at FBC Jax and make sure you don't do the stupid things Mac has done.
or...mayb the lesson for the more reformed students: BE SURE TO FOLLOW UP ON YOUR THREATS OF CHURCH DISCIPLINE. YOU CAN'T LET RECALCITRANT BLOGGERS BLOG ABOUT THE PASTOR.
But clips and more analysis to follow...
ATTN:Anon.11:58 Nov.5,2008.Let me make sure I get this right.Are you my friend calling the Word of the Living God a fairly tale?
If I understand your last comment correctly you are implying Mac is not under attack. That he just has the poor me meantility. Is that correct or am I miss understanding you?
WD, when did this PP event actuall take place (date) at SWBTS?
Go to www.swbts.edu and go the chapel archives and you can hear it for yourself...you won't hear PP's introduction, but you can listen to Mac's re-treaded sermon.
I would belive Mac is not "under attack." Simply folks asking for accountability and asking questions that noone seems to want to answer.
You know Dr.Dog the more Brunson opens his mouth the further both his feet go in.The evidence is now over-whelming and Brunson keeps on and on saying and doing questionable things.Jesus is always right,"YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT(actions)"not what they say but what they do."For many say but don't do".Page has no business saying anything to anybody considering his history of cover-ups(Darrell Gilyard)and the treatment of Mrs Klouda. Dr.Dog imagine what else we don't know about the treatment of others by these charlatans Patterson and his sidekick Brunson.The SBC and FBC Jax are going PURPOSE DRIVEN;and that means whatever purpose Page Brunson have in mind?
So Mac and Honey are away again, at the church's expense, I suppose. Does he receive remuneration from SWBTS?
PP & Brunson must be trying to spin the Klouda incident and justifying their remarks. I'm sure that was a topic of much discussion while they were together.
It's very sad to hear PP compare Mac to Martin Luther.
Martin Luther was a very devout and learned man. He also questioned everything. He also took for the poor people. He showed lot of humility. In his later years, his rage against Jews became worse and that he labeled them as God's enemies. I do not agree with Martin Luther on that. But on the whole he brought reasoning, questioning, downgrading the epistle of James that seemed to be the underpinning of Catholic Church doctrine, that faith itself did not save a person, but must be followed by works. He did much good and revolutionized our thinking. Though I sometimes disagree with the language he used in his later years. On the whole he was a humble man.
Sadly, this would not apply to Pastor Mac.
I made a commitment earlier to not use abusive rhetoric and I will stick to it.
There is a classic western shootout taking place on Pastor Wade's blog. I never thought I would witness one in a southern baptist blog. Live and Learn. I hope Our Lord Jesus Christ's mercy and peace will fill the hearts of posters there.
Thy Peace I admire you and your demeanor and have learned from you.Thanks for that last post.I find it difficult to contain my anger when these so called men of God distort truth,mistreat God's people,basiclly stealing money;If a man really has been called and loves Christ he will not be negotiating for and exorbitant salary(always a clue)and then putting his entire family on the payroll thus taking more money from God's people.Living as though he's a king,slandering sisters in Christ,slandering his church family calling them legalist and recalcitrants.Refusing to be transparent with the people concerning his actions and church business.I as a pastor never treat my people as though I was better than they(the ground is level at the cross),as a matter of fact I WANT THERE INPUT on the direction of our church.I AM NOT THEIR LORD CHRIST IS.Jesus stated that the one that desired to be greatest must be the greater servant not the people PONTIFF.Humility was the attitude of Christ,the Apostles and ALL TRUE CALLED MINISTERS(SERVANTS).Watching the debacles of PP and especially Brunson is TRULY distrubing ME!!!!!!
Thy Peace what is Pastor Wade's blog site address?
Grace and Truth to You
Dad, Is the World Coming to an End?
The first link is the blog site. The second link the current post, where the action was about an hour ago.
I listened to Brunson's words at SWBTS today. It can be assumed everyone in attendance know Mac's present pulpit is FBCJ. It can also be assumed they know who he was directing his admonitions toward when he said, there will always be those who will do "everything to shove you out of the race." He then told them to put "starch in your drawers." I'm guessing he was referring to his current unpleasantries at FBCJ and that his drawers are double dosed with heavy duty starch. Not backing off one iota from his pre-planned agenda, in my opinion.
Why is it that Brunson keeps leaving his local duties to be away so much in other pulpits. Usually in company of a few, chosen pals.
Let's talk transparency!
This morning I attended one of several discussion groups in our church. The church has a membership of 1200. The sessions were grouped by age (by decade), beginning with pre-teen & teenagers to senior adults. These sessions were scattered throughout the week at times most appropriate for participation. A week before the discussions took place, our pastor sent every member a letter outlining core, example issues and questions he and the deacons offered for possible guideline question for the church as a whole. The letter included 15 suggestions to consider but were not limited to only to those presented.
Examples below were offered for consideration.
1)Why did you start attending FBC?
2)What are the major reasons you are presently attending FBC?
3)What do you believe to be the purpose of FBC? Are we achieving that purpose? What can we do to effectively carry it out?
4)What are our strengths at FBC? What are we doing well? How can we improve them?
5)What are our weaknesses? What areas do we need to address where we are deficient? What do we need to do?
6)IF YOU COULD DEVELOP YOUR IDEAL CHURCH, WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE?
7)If our church lived up to God's expectations, in one year we would do what? In three years we would do what? In five years and beyond we would do what?
I will not list the remaining questions included, but do you get the jest? We were asked to pray earnestly before the meetings but were encouraged to be bold and not withhold any concerns you possibly would be hesitant to put on the table.
The discussions concluded tonight after regular service, minutes were taken and a recap-report will be issued and members will be notified the results of each session. No changes will be make or instituted before the general congregation has a final chance to offer additional input, positive or negative.
Also, if you were unable to attend your scheduled time, you could write your ideas and send them to the church, or if physically unable to attend a church messenger would pick them up and deliver them to the deacon chairman.
We were advised to stop and seek God's direction for the future and get a new vision for the times ahead.
Further transparency is provided as copies of the by-laws and budgets are placed in the front vestibule and you are encouraged to take a copy home.
Our pastor has been here 20 years, graduated from SWBTS and teaches and preaches from the bible as his authority.
We indeed are fortunate thus far that God's will is our authority, not man.
Yes, our church is one of many called First Baptist Church. Most every town or city has one so named.
5:57; Why does Mac leave us and travel to other pulpits: It's MONEY, pride, MONEY, adoration, MONEY sympathy, and more MONEY!!!!
Esther 6:50: How encouraging to hear how a church handles it's mandate to the people. Where is this church. Could you mail this report to the special attention of Mac and Honey Brunson. You say your pastor has been there for 20 years. That's how he has lasted. He must be a TRUE servant of the Lord and he must be TRULY called to the ministry, unlike Brunson. The current "rash" of preachers coming out of todays seminaries are in the "business". Yours came "out from among them", 20 years ago.
Food for thought:
NARCISSISM IN THE PULPIT.
"Generally most church conflict is caused by carnality, selfishness and ambition (1 Cor 3:3)., Combine these sinful behaviors with an antagonist or two and you can have serious conflict problems as we have discussed earlier. Add selfish ambition to these characteristic in the Senior Pastor and spiritual abuse can be meted out in sinful, and destructive ways. But there is one unbearable situation that unfortunately occurs too often within the church, that I wish to discuss: That of a pastor with a personality disorder shepherding, (or pretending to shepherd) the church body. Generally individuals that manifest serious personality disorders such as schizophrenia, paranoid, borderline, etc are not stable enough to survive in leadership positions. But due to the nature of the pastorate and the way in which pastors are called and dismissed, there is one personality that somehow manages to survive in the pastorate—that of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Generally it takes a long time before this devious individual is identified for who and what he really is, and some of the most gifted are able to survive for years in one location. Many though will have short tenures. Depending on the size of the congregation and the perceptiveness of the leadership it may take 6 months to a couple of years before the problem is clearly perceived—that the pastor is devoid of spiritual depth, personal character, and really could care less about the welfare of the sheep. If the destructive characteristics are not identified and the narcissist is allowed to minister long range serious problems will manifest. The NPD pastors can be very abusive and destructive to the church, and wreak havoc in the personal lives of those closest to them—particularly staff and leadership.
Realize that a narcissistic pastor is a very real danger both to himself and to the church life. According to Dattner Consulting LLC if the NPD pastor is able to accumulate too much power and prestige, and if others in the church are not able to moderate the narcissist’s destructive impulses, success can soon lead to failure. In the narcissists quest to maintain and promote their fragile self-esteem, the NPD pastor can often ignore or deny reality when it presents itself. They will also exploit the organization in order to attain their own goals. Grandiosity can lead to too much risk taking, and fear of failure can at other times lead to too little risk. With this in mind it becomes necessary to establish appropriate boundaries around the areas of finance, relational power over other staff, the board and other leaders appointed by the congregation. Unfortunately fear is the main deterrent to the narcissist—fear of losing his reputation, and fear of consequences which are clearly delineated and carried out when necessary".
My church is in SC.
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