Update: As soon as Jim begins publishing his series on the "Catholic Cult", I will begin publishing articles here pointing out how FBC Jax is no longer the church it once was, but now has begun to exhibit signs of becoming a cult itself! We will warn unsuspecting people who may be signing up their children to attend the First Baptist Academy (which again ironically is beginning its enrollment push for 2009) that this is not the church it once was under Homer Lindsay, but now in a new regime we are taking on the characteristics of a cult. So let's go for it Jimbo! Let's see who is a cult!
----------------Jim Smyrl is getting ready to publish a series of articles on our church website to educate everyone in Jacksonville just how cultish is the Catholic Church.
Please don't do it, Jim.
It's not necessary, Jim.
It will harm our church, Jim.
Most of us know the differences between Baptists and Catholics. Unlike Mac thinks, we're all not a bunch of idiots who are reading cultish books and are confused over theology. Unlike Mac inferred this morning, we don't need him to tell us what books are OK to read, and we definitely don't need you to educate the city of Jacksonville on the doctrinal differences between evangelicals and Catholics.
If you want to bash our Catholic friends, please, PLEASE do it on your own 501(c)3 website. Do not use our church website, and our church name, to push your anti-Catholic views.
There is a danger that by writing about how the Catholic Church is a cult, ON OUR OFFICIAL CHURCH WEBSITE, that you will bring unnecessary media scrutiny and harm our churches ability to reach Catholics. Whether they meet the definition of a cult or not, that is not my main concern here...its the damage that you will do to our ability to reach Catholics if you use the church website to call them a cult.
Isn't it ironic that the very same week that our First Baptist Academy website now contains registration information and tuition rates to start attracting people in Jacksonville who might want to come to our Academy, that Jim Smyrl is going to use our church website to unnecessarily offend and belittle the faith of some of the people who might be interested in attending our school.
Mac, or Honey or Trey...or MAURILIO....our TRUSTEES....or DEACONS....IS ANYONE OUT THERE??? Please show your leadership by pointing out to Jim his folly and encourage him to not put this series of articles on the church's website.
You will only be inviting the scrutiny and humiliation of the media who wonders why we are attacking the Catholics...when we ourselves are beginning to show "cultish" signs as we allow Mac to enrich himself, and as he declares that he can tell us what books are OK to read.
Don't do it, Jim.
Mac Brunson told you you should wait for his approval of what books to read? Could you please give the context and a round about quote of what he said please?
That sounds very odd.
Be glad to tell you.
Mac every week harps on how he gets emails from people who are reading books that are not good for us, and that confuse us. He doesn't tell us which books, just books that confuse Christians. Maybe he's speaking of books by Joel Osteen, or that popular book Christians are reading about the shack or whatever.
Then he said that is why Dr. Vines and Dr. Lindsay started the bookstore, to be a place where we could go and get books that mostly are healthy spiritually for us to read.
And he said if we didn't know which books to read that would be good for us, that we should go and see him and he would tell us.
Sorry, but this again is Mac showing his disdain for lay people. The average lay person is NOT a spiritual weakling, or is being swayed by heretical books. And most people do not need to get info from him on what to read! He reads plenty of books that are not "Christian"...he reads history books galore that are not written by Christians. Again, this is Mac's desire for him to replace the role of the Holy Spirit in people's lives. This is "cultish"...the leader of the church proclaiming to know what we should read, and that we should contact him.
For those of you seeing the service today: I thought his comments about how Sarah Palin had been attacked wrongly by anonymous people was ridiculous. According to the expert historian and policital guru Mac Brunson that the attacks on Sarah Palin since the election ended have actually served to solidify her popularity, to make her even more popular than she was. This is absolute rubbish. The fact that the McCain insiders have been wrongly accusing Sarah Palan of things not true is not the cause of her popularity. It is is her genuineness, her beliefs, her lifestyle, how she connects with people, her style of governance...it is NOT the slanderous attacks she has suffered that is the CAUSE of her popularity. It sure seemed to me that Mac saying it was her anonymous attackers that made her popular, somehow inferring that HIS anonymous attackers are only helping to make him more popular and loved by his people. Only difference: the attacks on Sarah Palin were FALSE, they were LIES. The "attacks" on Mac: that he is enriching himself and his family, earning a huge salary and living in a million dollar home on land given to him by a donor to our church...that he has slandered people in our pulpit, has spoken ill of us to others outside of Jacksonville...that he is selling advertising at our pastors conference...those are not LIES...Mac wants everyone to think that he is a victim, being lied about...but it ain't true. His only saving grace at this point is how few people know what he has done since coming here.
Please read Jim Smyrl's posts on Catholicism as it relates to TDM.
I do not know if any of you checked the links I posted in the previous post.
If you read this comments and maybe you can get to hear Daniel L. Akin's talk on this subject, that will explain TDM and how fbcjax has been drawing from this TDM. I am not saying it's bad. It actually sounds good to me. But it's all in the implementation, how it effects fbcjax.
CAN THEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN PREACHING HELP RESCUE THE SBC?
By: Daniel L. Akin
The Conservative Resurgence gave Southern Baptist a second chance but it did not secure our future. Has there been a Resurgence? Yes. Has there been a Restoration? Doubtful. Have we experienced genuine Revival? Clearly the answer is no.
Eight Theological Essentials for Southern Baptists in the 21st Century
1) The non-negotiable of a regenerate Church (John 3; Rom. 3; 2 Cor. 5; Gal. 3)
First, we need to make it clear that church membership is a privilege, not a right.
Second, we must preach against easy believism and reject any form of a compromised gospel.
Third, we must be careful with respect to our own theological integrity concerning infant or early adolescent baptism that lacks a clear understanding and confession of the gospel.
2) The essential nature of believers baptism by immersion with a biblical appreciation for its significance. (Matt. 28; Acts, Rom. 6)
That baptism involved a particular member (a believer), mode (immersion) and meaning (public identification with Christ and the believing community) is grounded in New Testament witness and has been a hallmark of Baptists throughout their history.
We must see evidence of regeneration for those we baptize. The baptism of young children must be administered with the greatest possible care.
Baptism should be viewed and emphasized as a first and necessary step of discipleship and obedience to Christ. We will reject as inconceivable the idea of admitting anyone into our membership without believerâ€™s baptism by immersion.
3) The recovery of the lost jewels of church discipline and genuine disciple-making as essential marks of the Church.
Church discipline is clearly and repeatedly taught in the New Testament, yet most do not preach on it or practice it. Jesus addresses it in Matt. 18:15-20 and Paul does so several times in 1 Cor. 5:1-13; 2 Cor. 2:5-11; Gal. 6:1-2; and Titus 3:9-11.
Theologically it is to disobey the plain teachings of Scripture and ignore the necessity of church discipline in maintaining the purity of the church.
First, we must preach and teach our people what the Bible says about church discipline.
Second, we must begin to implement church discipline lovingly, wisely, gently, carefully and slowly.
Third, we must apply discipline to areas like absentee membership as well as the specific list provided by Paul in 1 Cor. 5.
4) The emphasis and practice of a genuinely Word-based ministry (2 Tim. 4:1-5)
For those of us who profess to believe in both the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture, there must be in our churches what I call â€œengaging exposition.â€
We must advocate an expositional method with a theological mindset under an evangelical mandate. It is preaching that models for our people how they should study, interpret and teach the Bible.
5) The vision for a faithful and authentic biblical ecclesiology (Acts. 2; Eph. 4; Pastorals)
First, there must be the 4 marks of 1) a regenerate Church membership, 2) the Word, 3) the Ordinances and 4) Church Discipline. Second the local church should be elder/pastor led and congregationally governed. Here, in my judgment, there is room for flexibility in terms of patterns, structure and implementation.
As we move forward in this century, Pastors will need to give particular attention to a theology of stewardship and discipleship.
The members of our churches must move from being shoppers to buyers to investors.
6) The continued nurturing of a fervent missionary and evangelistic passion that is wedded to a healthy and robust theology (1 Thess. 1; Eph. 4:11-16; Jude 3-4; Rev. 5)
No church will be evangelistic by accident.
First, there are multiple ways churches can do missions and evangelism. That we do it is the key.
Marketplace evangelism which can reach into the workplace is an area needing attention, strategizing and training.
Youth and student evangelism needs renewed emphasis.
Theologically and biblically, we must challenge our people to evangelize without bias or prejudice, loving and going after the exploding ethnic and minority groups where we live.
7) The teaching and preaching of a 1st century biblical model for church planting (Acts 17)
The 21st century is more like the 1st century than has ever been the case in our Western culture.
We are losing America and the West because we are losing the great metropolitan areas where there is a concentration of people.
First, explore creative methods, but make sure that they are faithfully filtered through the purifying waters of Holy Scripture.
Second, be wise fishers of men.
Third, we must ask God to raise a new generation of godly and gifted church planters and missionaries.
8) The wisdom to look back and remember who we were so that as we move forward we will not forget who we are
The Southern Baptist Convention today is not the Southern Baptist Convention of your parents, and certainly not your grandparents.
We now have several generations who know almost nothing of William Carey and Adoniram Judson, Bill Wallace, Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong. They do know nothing of Boyce, Broadus, and Manly; Carroll, Robertson, Frost, Mullins and Truett.
They have never heard Criswell, Rogers or Vines preach, and they are not really sure who they are.
In creative and dynamic avenues fitting a 21st century context, we need to retell the Baptist History story in a way that will grab the attention and stir the hearts of our people. And we need to do it, at least in part, from the pulpit.
The North Carolina evangelist Vance Havner said, â€œWhat we live is what we really believe. Everything
TP said 1 ...
TP said 2 ...
Readers: wanted to draw your attention to a new website just set up recently to shine the light on pastor Mark Cummins and his abuses of their church at FBC Ocala (Florida).
Visit it and you will see that members are not going to sit by and let this pastor take over the church without opposition.
During the Lindsay years. (I know this is beginning to be the only preacher we can look back to as a legitimate pastor) But during the Lindsay years it was quite common for our Catholic friends to tell us that after they went to Mass on Sunday morning they would go home to hear Dr. Lindsay preach. Even the priests spoke well of Lindsay! I have recently had a Catholic friend tell me how much they miss Dr. Lindsay and what a good Godly preacher he was. How am I to explain this deliberate antagonism to them. I and other members of my family have witnessed to and led some Catholics (one an entire family) to the Lord. What more damage can this church do to this community? We maybe don't agree with the Catholics, and certainly not their doctrine, but we don't have to start a war with them. How are we going to witness to them now? Thanks Jim, Mac and all the fine folks allowing this. But, you know if this church doesn't care about who they hurt in their own church, why are we suprised at who they hurt outside of it?
I just read the Ocala website and found it to be disgusting. First of all, church matters like that have no business on a website and just think of how a bunch a lawyers can fix up a church regardless of who is right and wrong.
I did find it interesting that the chairman of trustees and the chairman of deacons were in support of the firing. Personally, I believe they should have been terminated if they didn't show up for their meeting.
I seriously doubt if there is a big parallel between that church and yours. Hopefully you will keep lawyers out of your problems. Just look what they have done to the federal government...
I am unable to find Dr. Akin's mp3 of his talk during Theology Driven Ministry Conference. But I did find his lecture in a pdf file here.
“Can Theologically Driven Preaching Help Rescue the SBC?”
Dr. Akin delivered this address on Expository Preaching at Southeastern during their Theology Driven Ministry Conference on March 26, 2007.
Dawg, I'm pretty much with you on this. Some spiritual know-it-alls think they have a lock on all things holy but I think they are going to be quite disappointed when they get to heaven. Probably going to be alot of catholics, jews and beer drinkers...myself included. God is not a baptist. Smyrl the pearl is just another religious know-it-all who is blinded by their self professed superior intellect and spiritual pride, sorta like the pharisees.
Hail Mary full of grace and pass the merlot.
Theology Driven Ministry
What do you think of this?
I thought I would come here today and say something positive. Then you bring up Theology Driven Ministry Conferance. That smacks of elitism. Snobbery! Will they never stop? AND THE BOOKS! Give me a brake. Mac's problem is that he fills his head with so much of MAN'S WORDS that there is no room for GOD'S WORDS. We have always told the newly saved that they should start each day with some quiet time. Could it be that Mac has forgotten this all important starter? You know, read your bible and God will tell you something. Pray to him and you will tell God something. How difficult is that.
Yes, eletism, Mac knows all of the right books; and we don't.
I just read the Ocala website and found it to be disgusting.
Everybody has an opinion. What I find disgusting is the heavy-handed abuse of power and lack of transparency evident in actions of the Ocala pastor and his supporters.
First of all, church matters like that have no business on a website
Says who? What should a group of followers of Jesus have to hide from thr world? If such curch maters should not be public, then the Bible should be a much shorter book, seeing as it chronicles before the whole world many sins and conflicts among God's people.
and just think of how a bunch a lawyers can fix up a church regardless of who is right and wrong.
The letters from lawyers on the website were requests for records and for justification for the decisions made and for explanations of apparent violations of church by-laws and state laws. Those lawyers also happen to be members of the church, they were clearly writing on their own behalf, and they used their status and knowldge of the law to ask for things fully within their right as members of the church.
I did find it interesting that the chairman of trustees and the chairman of deacons were in support of the firing. Personally, I believe they should have been terminated if they didn't show up for their meeting.
If you mean that it was right to fire these 6 associate pastors because they did not show up for individual meetings with the personnel committee, I don't think so. First, the 6 associates were following both the by-laws of the church and Matthew 18, and the pastor and personnel committee were not. Second, the senior pastor is on the peronnel committee with whom thee men were told to meet individually -- and the whole reason these men were going to the deacons was because they had not met with success when adddressing their concerns with the senior pastor. Who would reasonably expect them to have the validity of their concerns judged by the very person who those concerns were about, especially when he had already rejected their concerns when brought to him one-on-one? I don't blame the associates for not showing up for such a meeting, and it was a violation of the church's own bylaws to require it of them.
I seriously doubt if there is a big parallel between that church and yours.
The parallels of abuse of power are inescapable.
Hopefully you will keep lawyers out of your problems.
Actually, I think serious reform toward transparency and accountability in operations of mega churches are not likely to come about by any other means than legal action being taken by the membership. These churches have often chosen to goven themselves based on worldly (corporate) patterns and principles, and the force of legal action is all they are likely to respond to.
Just look what they have done to the federal government...
I share your general distrust of the legal profession, especially how they have messed up the government. But, in this case, lawyers who are members of the body who have a genune interest in the good of the body may be in a position to do some good about their church being controlled by the senior pastor, rather than the whole body governing themselves under the leadership of the Holy Spirit (which is the more biblical pattern).
I would encourage the readers to peruse Dr. Akin's lecture on TDM. Pastor Mac and Pastor Smyrl seem to draw heavily from this TDM. To me, it explains lot of the sermons Pastor Mac preached, that have originated from TDM and this lecture. I am also certain, since the whole PC2009 is being squeezed through TDM, the articles Pastor Smyrl will be posting soon on Catholicism as a cult is blessed by Pastor Mac, SBC and TDM.
So to me, the source of this "problem" lies in the TDM. But from casual reading of the lecture of Dr. Akin, everything looks ok, but what is being asked of the members in terms of commitment and sacrifice may not be ok. Look at the 8 points he proposes, and also look at the church discipline and other matters.
To be fair, lot of pastors in the founders blog, thought this was a good idea. Now is the time for the readers to weigh in on this matter, since fbcjax (as in titanic) is being steered by TDM.
I will say one thing in defense of the lawyers in Ocala--at least they were open and upfront with who they are. That is to be admired.
Please no more posts telling me that the Catholics are a cult or that they are not true Christians.
That is NOT my point of this article and I don't wish it to be debated here.
Smyrl is going to take it upon himself to use our church website and our church name to strike out at the Catholic church. To spread his ideas about the Catholic church in this manner is hurtful to the mission of our church. That is the point, and I hope that he doesn't do it.
Truth and ideals are what should be admired, regardless of whether or not we know the name of the source.
Trying to stay on topic here as the Watchdog requests....I don't think what Rev. Smyrl does is hurtful to our church. I actually think telling us more about the Catholic religion is good because it will give us a more informed and knowledgeable Biblical world view. Remember, he is our Education Pastor. So he is doing exactly what we pay him to do and what the Lord has called him to do.
And I agree with Smyrl on the Catholic issue. But, God doesn't see me less of a sinner than the Catholics. In his eyes, we're all equally imperfect despite of our religious associations. <---Important to remember.
To Anon 6:06 et al,
Of course Dr. Brunson has not forgotten that quiet times are an important starter for new believers! In his message this morning, he in fact emphasized the importance of a daily devotion to help re-program the brain, for all Christians. Remember the MRI and finger strumming analogy? Notice that he doesn't just use history, he also often uses science in helpful ways in his sermons. I'm certain that he not only reads man's words but also reads the Bible more than you can possibly imagine. When he told the congregation that he could help them find something worthwhile to read, well that seemed to be an appropriate thing for a leader to say, especially when he hears that people are reading some strange things.
It's hard to believe you actually think what people say can be harmful to your church. I actually find very little that's edifying on this blog since it's obsession. And if I'm not mistaken, the Bible says if it's not edifying, keep it to yourself.
Once again people aren't getting WDs concerns and comments on our website. Our website is not a place for someone, whether paid staff or laymen to present their positions. Our website should be informational to provide insight to members and prospects. Obviously I believe that Catholics, like Baptist can be saved or the can be lost.
My question is where are the deacons? Where are the trustees? Our church is being robbed, destroyed before our very eyes.
WD.. any suggestions on how we can start a grass roots movement to get our church back?
There are ways to inform people about Catholicism and their differences with Baptists without resorting to the inflamitory label of "cult", which most scholars and leaders of counter-cult ministries would agree is not an appropriate term for Catholicism.
There are two primary hallmarks of a cult: (1) theological -- specifically in reference to errors in their doctrine of the Trinity and the full deity and co-equality of all three members of the Godhead and (2) sociological - particularly in reference to their authoritarian control over the lives of their members.
Catholicism, for all its faults, does not fit the classic definition of a cult. As Watchdog points out, Smyrl's using that term for the Catholic religion will draw unnecessary criticism to the FBC Jax. Don't y'all have enough real problems brought on my Mac that you don't need Smyrl causing more?
Ludie.. where your comments edifying? This is a great blog to get the information that should be coming from the pulpit.
Are we to expect Smyrl to give us an accurate account of the Catholic Religion? Mac is going to set up his own satelite operation. That is what the Catholic Church has been doing for hundreds of years. Smyrl and Mac will preach against Catholic satelites but start his own. Go figure.
Question, behind the U.S. Government, who is the largest land owner in the United States? You guessed it, the Catholic Church.
I know Watchdog does not want Dr. Vines to be brought into this but I'm going to try anyways. So if this post makes it through, then I guess I'm lucky.
Anon 10:36pm said this:
Our website is not a place for someone, whether paid staff or laymen to present their positions.
I don't think Rev. Smyrl is necessarily stating his position. I think he is saying what the Catholic religion is based upon scripture, not what he thinks about them. If he's stating his position on a website and you think that is wrong, then how do you feel about Dr. Vines comments stating his position on Islam in front of a few thousand people and then millions of viewers through TV as his comments made national news?
I am a believer from a different country and i have started to come in FBC Jax for about 14 months. I come from a Muslim background and a new born believers since 12 years now. I have never ever seen a behavior like this from a person called a christian that acts worse than a nonbeliever. To see the attack of a christian from another christian like a dog is horrible.
I see that you are not interested in facts about what you have started regarding Catholics because that is not the case for you. You can find as many reasons you like to start shooting somebody, if not the Catholics will bee the shoes the color of the shirt etc.
About the Catholics being a cult is very clear you are a ignorant in the knowledge of the truth the Bible but also analyzing simple history of Martin Luther and his revolution. If the Catholics and the biblical Christians are the same than man if you are not happy you have other friendly open doors.
I have seen people that have made a commitment that they will never smile in their life and to be non satisfied with every thing. You are the same. You have made this commitment hopefully not with Satan to negatively speak about some one in every thing that man is doing. What a testimony you are with your behavior. Man the rots of bitterness are so deep on your heart and have occupied you completely. This is disgusting.
God love ya Robert.
Who cares at this point?
The point is:
We are trying to reach all peoples, and for Smyrl to call Catholics a cult, and to call priests "Cult Leaders" as he did in his previous blog post does no good.
I supported Vines in his statement as he didn't say it for public consumption, but once it hit the airwaves he defended himself. He didn't make that statement on our church website, and he didn't do it to draw attention to himself.
But there were some Christians who spend their entire lives witnessing to Muslims, and those comments made by Vines were counter productive to their efforts, however true they were.
So for God sakes Robert, if you can't see that Smyrl should NOT be putting that on our website, regardless of what you think about the Catholics, I feel sorry for you because what little discernmnet you had is now gone.
Philippians 2:4 "Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on things of others". Jesus said "be ye kind one to another". It appears that we have arrived at that point of devouring one another. How sad especially during this time when so many are headed for HELL!!
Saw this, thought it was interesting.
Smyrl's first article on the Catholics is there.
Boy, we are in big trouble. This is a SBC seminary trained man.
He makes the following case about why he must write these articles:
"And how will you ever lead a Catholic out of his sin and into the only sufficient grace of Christ if you do not clearly point out his sin? Surely we do not believe that we can lead anyone to Christ by generalizing or minimizing his sin."
And Jim says we must "clearly point out his sin" in order to lead a Catholic "out of his sin"...first of all I don't think we are called to point out people's sin in order for them to accept Christ (this is a seminary man....supposedly has a PhD, but I'm not sure about that...can anyone do a background check on this guy?)...and secondly in the context of his article it seems that he is making the case that being a Catholic by definition is a "sin".
This guy is an amateur! Jim, you've lost your way dude.
"hey you...YOU CATHOLIC...let me tell about my Jesus...first, let me clearly point out your sin of being a Catholic". That's ridiculous. We are called to share the gospel, not point out flaws in theology. But this is where Theology Driven Ministry is leading us church. Less Jesus, and more finger pointing.
Those of you considering enrolling your kids at FB Academy? Hmmm...think twice. Might want to ask the Schoolmaster if they are going to teach intolerance to other views of Christianity. Is FB Academy going to teach the little minds of mush that the Catholics are a "cult"?
Of course we don't need to point out people's sins when witnessing. The Holy Spirit does that. So Jim Smyrl has been completely converted to the Mac Brunson way of ministry. Replace the Holy Spirit with forceful, angry rhetoric. You convince people of their sin, not the Holy Spirit.
People, this is why I have been blogging for over a year. When you have a guy like Brunson at the helm, who really is more interested in his brand and his family's wealth and making a name for himself than he is the church AND THE PEOPLE WE ARE TRYING TO REACH IN JACKSONVILLE, you are going to get garbage like this on our website harming our ministry. Homer or Vines would not have allowed this nonsense on our website to harm our testimony in this city.
Our pastor, our deacons, our trustees are all asleep at the wheel, while Mac and Honey are driving us off a cliff. Only problem is Mac and Honey and Trey all have a golden parachute that they will use to escape when the bus finally goes over...and they'll land softly in another new ministry somewhere while we're sorting through the rubble.
So go for it Jim! Keep up the good work! Please educate us in your series on how we can point out the sin of Catholicism.
WD, to be fair to Jim Smyrl, the points he makes at the bottom of his post are correct. The question you have raised is "Is it good for this to be on fbcjax official blog site?". My conclusions are that this has been blessed and approved by Pastor Mac, SBC and TDM.
I do not know how comfortable Catholics will feel about Jim Smyrl wishing to harvest catholics to Christ. I am wondering, if he tried this on Jews would they be comfortable?
I am certain, he will come under lot of publicity because of this. Maybe this is his goal, even while questioning catholicism and their practices.
If only he can question fbcjax practices.
Dr. Akin and and all those paid clergy that follow his leadership and think this TDM is a great idea makes ME very sad. He lists all these "important" criteria, but none of them are MY criteria? Remember what I did and what I said? Look after orphans and widows, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, love your neighbor as I have loved you, love God with all your heart and soul and might. Why are none of these things being emphasized by those that call them themselves by my name? Instead we hear of church discipline, attendance records, and other things that do not meet the needs of those I love.
And my children, the only reason Jim Smyrl is now focusing on the Catholics, is because he is NOT after my own heart. He is about building numbers and "sheep stealing" and the Catholic demographic is a huge one. Like NW St. Johns county, instead of focusing on those right outside their church buildings, they target Catholics in general and the rich in St. Johns County. Those I would have them minister to are literally within walking distance of the campus I put downtown so many years ago. But I am slow to anger. I intercede for MY church that they will come to their senses. Remember the story I told about the prodigal son? FBC Jax is the son. I stand looking and waiting for them to come to their senses. Is there not eve ONE man among you who can stop the abuses being done in my name?
Behold, I come quickly. I love you!
Your friend, saviour and Lord,
Readers: I stumbled on this article at Christa Brown's site earlier this year discussing "cult" versus "abuse"...and I think its very appropriate for this time as we begin reading Smyrl the Pearl's "wisdom" on the Catholic church.
"Cult" or "Church" - Its Still Abuse
Interesting that Smyrl wants to use our church's good name to "prove" with Danny Akin's "grid" (I'm sure Danny Akin is thrilled that Smyrl is using his name on the anti-catholic messages of Smyrl!) that the Catholic are a cult...but where was Jumbo Jim when Gilyard was abusing women? Where was the outcry Jim? Didn't you have a "grid" to show what damage a monster like Gilyard does to the name of Christianity? Can't you call out Gilyard and the men who WERE WARNED by a local pastor but still turned a blind eye and allowed the man to devour his sheep?
Anon 9:34 AM. You ask "where was Jimbo when Gilyard was abusing women"? The same place he is now. Hiding behind the SBC powers. If you will remember Vines, Patterson and Falwell went out to Texas to "counsel" with Gilyard in the early 90's, about his "problem". Most everyone in churches new about this, as it was all over the news media at that time. Did a lot of good didn't it. You don't give preachers a pass on stuff like this, (or anyone) but Gilyard got one thanks to Patterson and Vines. Vines even preached in Gilyards church twice here in Jax, in the recent past. Thus giving Gilyard credibility and enabling him to continue his sick behavior. Doesn't look so good for the SBC does it. But we must revere Vines. These guys will preach (?) anywhere that will pay them. So much for "higher standards". Or is that "brand building".
when you start pointing out the sins of other churches, its just too easy for people to start to point out the abuses and SINS in the southern baptist church.
You nailed it. Very astute and true.
WD: I wonder how many pastors will not come to the 2009 PC because of these comments about Catholics. I wonder how many Catholics in the area will never watch FBC after they hear of these comments.
I wonder how many Catholics we could have ministered to without these comments. I wonder how many Catholics could have ministered to us. I have been ministered to by Catholics when my own church choose to ignore me. Wonder how many former Catholics that are now members of FBC have sent e-mails or letters to Team Brunson stating their displeasures with this attitude. Its a good thing Angel Martinez (former Catholic) never heard this as he may have never accepted salvation from a little Baptist mission in San Antonio Texas back in 1935 when he was a little shoe shine boy of 13. Then all of us who knew him to be one of God's greatest evangelist would never have heard or seen him.
It's really a shame that we don't have two women pastors in FBC as they according to Mac would be more beneficial and God knows they would be more spiritual. Comments Mac made about women being more sensitive to the Holy Spirit than men, in an SBC interview, PC.2007. I do not believe they would have caused as much harm. Thinking on this further, I believe we ought to call Mrs. Klouda to hold a revival here, as it could turn things around for the betterment of the whole congregation. Probably won't happen but still is a good suggestion. Maybe Mac could humble himself and repent. I know one thing, you sure wouldn't get much HISTORY!!! Just kidding here, as I do not believe in women preachers. But, Mrs Klouda would be an excellent speaker for the women as she has much to say and in my opinion has handled herself far better than the men she has had to deal with.
And you know Mac and Jim might just learn something about Greek as she was a Greek scholar and actually holds a PHd in Greek not Philosophy or History.
Well, there are many different definitions of cults, and Jim of course is examining the theological definition of a cult - and he uses the Danny Akin "grid".
But what Jim won't tell you is that a church can have mostly a correct theology but STILL EXHIBIT CULTISH BEHAVIORS. Example: Shiloh and Trinity. While they had correct theology for the most part, they allowed themselves to be controlled by a "cult leader". Their leader was a wolf in sheep's clothing. They had abusive leaders. And men in the church knew that these men were devouring the sheep. But they did nothing. There were some that tried to come forward about the abuses, and they were ridiculed and silenced. There was a pervasive, perverted culture that had developed where people who spoke ill of the pastor were castigated. Even Tom Messer himself knew of Bob Gray's abuse, but he knew that either he would be fired or disciplined for exposing the abuses..because he knew the people in a sense worshipped Bob Gray. Same with Gilyard - men were told about Gilyard's past abuses, and these men did nothing to protect women.
In this regard, the Catholics have had many problems of predator priests. Everyone knows that.
So the more relevant, pragmatic question in regard to cults is: does FBC Jax exhibit the same cultish behaviors that we saw at Trinity and Shiloh that would make US a church that could be abused by a wolf in sheep's clothing pastor?
Anon 10:22pm: I fully agree with your comments, except for a minor fact. Dr. Sheri Klouda is a Hebrew Professor. She could possibly be a Greek scholar, though I could not verify this.
WD, as I was reading about TDM and comments on this post and about Smyrl's post on Catholicism as a cult, it occurred to me what is missing at fbcjax are two fundamental things.
- LOVE : If you follow all the aspects of TDM without LOVE, it's all a WASTE. My reading of fbcjax from this blog is this is what is happening.
- Man Worship : Cults are formed when groups/churches idolize men/women, when they should be bereans by checking everything that is said with The Word of God. To me, this explains the behavior as in Darrell Gilyard and other pastors doing sexual abuse or financial abuse. Excellent example of financial abuse is Spending God's Money by Mary Kinney Branson. This worship of Pastors/Men of God/Men of Authority is balanced when there is transparency with checks and balances. When they do not take place, abuse usually happens. I also submit, when this transparency is lacking, it also heads to become a cult. Cults typically are dealing with mind control, thought control. All of this advanced by the leadership. At the same time, they are hiding their operational details from the members. I do not know how much of this is happening at fbcjax. But just from reading some of the comments, it indicates something is not right here.
Is Jim a Batholic?
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